Universal Health Care for U.S., Yes or No?

[Doctor]

Whoa. You implied that all veterans were covered and eligible for VA medical benefits but this is not the case at all. I repeat that the large majority of veterans have never seen the inside of a VA hospital and never will because they do not qualify for it.

Hmmmm. What I was implying was, more explicitly stated, this:

* All veterans are potentially eligible
* Health Care eligibility is not just for those who served in combat.
* Veteran's health care is not just for service-connected injuries or medical conditions.

http://www.va.gov/healtheligibility

You know better than I do however, how easy or hard it is to get covered.

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[ryandote]

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[sunshinefun]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

 

[Daydreamer2008]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

That is a wonderful question. It is truly sad to see so many future doctors that are against a single payer health care system. It seems that many of them are worried about their salaries, and others are afraid that they will have to "pay for the uninsured" with higher taxes. It's a sad situation I guess it's up to the rest of us to tackle this issue!

 

[bawer234]

That is a wonderful question. It is truly sad to see so many future doctors that are against a single payer health care system. It seems that many of them are worried about their salaries, and others are afraid that they will have to "pay for the uninsured" with higher taxes. It's a sad situation I guess it's up to the rest of us to tackle this issue!

its even worse that certain premeds think they know that a single payer system is the answer.

 

[katarzyna]

its even worse that certain premeds think they know that a single payer system is the answer.

Hell yeah.

 

[nu2004]

this isn't really a "yes" or "no" type of issue, imo

 

[bawer234]

Not sure if this is a repost but this 20/20 episode casts an interesting light on consumer driven health care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf3MtjMBWx4

 

[katarzyna]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

hey, my dad has 2 jobs and he used to have 3. my pops experienced cleaning up toilets. i'm a minority and barely middle class and i do not think that single payer system will solve this. and oh, we don't have health insurance either. sometimes people just prefer spending their money on something else than pay for health insurance. my family barely eats out and we try our best to be healthy as much as possible. We're not that type of people who own HDTV's and complain to the government about how poor we are nor do we ask them to take care of us from cradle to grave.

 

[Begaster]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

I'm going to guess the answer to this is no. When you have people coming here and stating that they "earned" everything they've done, and everyone is responsible for everything they experience, you have to imagine these people don't know any true hardship.

A black kid who's born in a ghetto to a crack-addict mother and a deadbeat dad may be able to succeed, but he's going to need a lot more luck and skill than your average middle-class white kid. Until people start to understand that the grand majority of what they take for granted as their accomplishments is little more than luck (circumstantial and genetic), they won't realize that those at the bottom aren't just there because they're too lazy. Yeah, personal responsibility does have some place in society, but when you stack the deck so heavily against someone, you can't honestly expect success and then blame failure on that person's inadequacies. It's bull****.

Katarzyna, so what you're telling me is that your father doesn't deserve quality health care? He hasn't earned it? You try to keep healthy, so I guess that means cancer can't hit your family. Or CHD.

 

[nu2004]

and oh, we don't have health insurance either.

so what's the plan if someone in your family gets a horrible protracted disease, or is involved in an accident and has to spend months and months in the ICU? just let the whole family's finances go down the tubes? i don't see the logic.

 

[katarzyna]

so what's the plan if someone in your family gets a horrible protracted disease, or is involved in an accident and has to spend months and months in the ICU? just let the whole family's finances go down the tubes? i don't see the logic.

let's just say that the money needs to go to my tuition and (we rent a house btw) house bills and nothing's left for health insurance.

 

[EpiPEN]

*EDIT*

I think I misunderstood the previous post, lol

 

[Begaster]

let's just say that the money needs to go to my tuition and (we rent a house btw) house bills and nothing's left for health insurance.

Haven't you read the posts above? Prioritize! Stop buying HDTVs and $200 sneakers. Then you can afford health insurance.

 

[katarzyna]

I'm going to guess the answer to this is no. When you have people coming here and stating that they "earned" everything they've done, and everyone is responsible for everything they experience, you have to imagine these people don't know any true hardship.

A black kid who's born in a ghetto to a crack-addict mother and a deadbeat dad may be able to succeed, but he's going to need a lot more luck and skill than your average middle-class white kid. Until people start to understand that the grand majority of what they take for granted as their accomplishments is little more than luck (circumstantial and genetic), they won't realize that those at the bottom aren't just there because they're too lazy. Yeah, personal responsibility does have some place in society, but when you stack the deck so heavily against someone, you can't honestly expect success and then blame failure on that person's inadequacies. It's bull****.

Katarzyna, so what you're telling me is that your father doesn't deserve quality health care? He hasn't earned it? You try to keep healthy, so I guess that means cancer can't hit your family. Or CHD.

wtflip? lol of course my father deserves quality health care.

 

[katarzyna]

Haven't you read the posts above? Prioritize! Stop buying HDTVs and $200 sneakers. Then you can afford health insurance.

oh shi-

you didnt read my edited post!

lol


scroll up!

lol

 

[Begaster]

I don't understand. You don't have health care and you don't support health care for people like your father who cannot afford it. The logic follows that you don't believe these people deserve health care, including your father.

Your edit doesn't really change anything, as I was mainly mocking the idiots above who posted nonsensical gibberish like "people should prioritize better and stop driving Mercedes instead of getting health insurance." I was fairly certain your parents did not waste their money on HDTVs and expensive shoes. They're merely blue collar workers who can't afford health insurance because they have other expenses in life that are just as important (eg - your tuition). And they deserve to be covered in case something tragic befalls them.

 

[bawer234]

so what's the plan if someone in your family gets a horrible protracted disease, or is involved in an accident and has to spend months and months in the ICU? just let the whole family's finances go down the tubes? i don't see the logic.

I believe the point of the post was to imply that not all people who are uninsured necessarly want it. They may decide to spend their income elsewhere. Not everyone is looking for a free handout.

 

[RySerr21]

anybody read The Healthcare Fix by Lawrence Kotlikoff???

its his proposal for a healthcare system that will work and reduce the fiscal gap/bring the U.S. out of economic ruin. if you read it....and think about it....his plan makes sense.

he argues that the main financial probem with the US healthcare system is the ridiculous amount of money spent on Medicare and Medicaid...specifcally Medicare....

he also argues that we have universal health insurance right now....its just awful. if you want health insurance...you will get it. you'll just have to go bankrupt and lose everything you own first...then the government will pay for you.

as far health insurance costs and uninsured.... the reason private insurers charge such high premiums is b/c htey dont know they are insuring. Does Joe X have a history of heart disease or perfect health? they have no idea...so they cover their asses just in case and charge 50K a year for health insurance....well most people (47 millino) cant afford that.

he proposes the government distribute insurance vouchers to EVERY citizen. the government can control the price of the voucher...so if you have a poor history of health you will get a bigger voucher. if you are a healthy 23 year old you will get a smaller voucher. once you get your voucher, you purchase your insurance. for the upcoming year, you are under that insurance and the insurer you purchased is responsible for anyting that happens. if you only hav ea 20K voucher but you have a heart attack and need procedures that cost 60K...insurer is down 40K. on the other hand, if you get an 80K voucher but only require 20K for the year... insurer is up 60K. so it works out. at the same time, since the insureres are paying for your health...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.... the insurers will have incentive to keep prices low.


theres the gist. if you are intersted you shold read the book. its only 90 pages. i left out a bunch of stuff but its pretty interesting.

p.s. i wrote a 5 pg paper about it if you want more of what his plan is about but cant read the book. just PM me if you want it, although id suggest just reading the book.

 

[bawer234]

anybody read The Healthcare Fix by Lawrence Kotlikoff???

its his proposal for a healthcare system that will work and reduce the fiscal gap/bring the U.S. out of economic ruin. if you read it....and think about it....his plan makes sense.

he argues that the main financial probem with the US healthcare system is the ridiculous amount of money spent on Medicare and Medicaid...specifcally Medicare....

he also argues that we have universal health insurance right now....its just awful. if you want health insurance...you will get it. you'll just have to go bankrupt and lose everything you own first...then the government will pay for you.

as far health insurance costs and uninsured.... the reason private insurers charge such high premiums is b/c htey dont know they are insuring. Does Joe X have a history of heart disease or perfect health? they have no idea...so they cover their asses just in case and charge 50K a year for health insurance....well most people (47 millino) cant afford that.

he proposes the government distribute insurance vouchers to EVERY citizen. the government can control the price of the voucher...so if you have a poor history of health you will get a bigger voucher. if you are a healthy 23 year old you will get a smaller voucher. once you get your voucher, you purchase your insurance. for the upcoming year, you are under that insurance and the insurer you purchased is responsible for anyting that happens. if you only hav ea 20K voucher but you have a heart attack and need procedures that cost 60K...insurer is down 40K. on the other hand, if you get an 80K voucher but only require 20K for the year... insurer is up 60K. so it works out. at the same time, since the insureres are paying for your health...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.... the insurers will have incentive to keep prices low.


theres the gist. if you are intersted you shold read the book. its only 90 pages. i left out a bunch of stuff but its pretty interesting.

p.s. i wrote a 5 pg paper about it if you want more of what his plan is about but cant read the book. just PM me if you want it, although id suggest just reading the book.

So essentially the gov. is picking up your bill up to $20K (for example). Everytihng after that is on the insurer? Do everyone's premiums cost the same in this system? Are there any deductibles for the individuals?

 

[katarzyna]

I don't understand. You don't have health care and you don't support health care for people like your father who cannot afford it. The logic follows that you don't believe these people deserve health care, including your father.

Your edit doesn't really change anything, as I was mainly mocking the idiots above who posted nonsensical gibberish like "people should prioritize better and stop driving Mercedes instead of getting health insurance." I was fairly certain your parents did not waste their money on HDTVs and expensive shoes. They're merely blue collar workers who can't afford health insurance because they have other expenses in life that are just as important (eg - your tuition). And they deserve to be covered in case something tragic befalls them.

I see what you're saying.

Let me put it this way,

for example, we're walking down the street and you see an old woman who is a cripple and she holds up a sign that says "i need some money for a wheel chair."

You want to give money to the lady, let's say you pull out 20 bucks out of your pocket.
Do you have the right to give her 20 bucks? Yes you do of course.


So then I'll do the same. Pull out 20 bucks out and give it to the lady. Do I have the right to give it to the lady? Of course I do.

Same scenario, the difference it I don't want to give the lady twenty bucks. You pull out your gun and point it to my head and say "hey give her 20 $." Do you have the right to do that? Of course not.

I do realize that not all people are really very unable to pay for health care & yes they do need assistance. (well duh heh). I just think there are better ideas than the single payer system Idk what the hell is the best idea out there but I'm sure as hell that it's not the single payer system.

 

[Begaster]

That old lady should have a wheelchair, and it should not depend on the generosity of a select few. What kind of civilized nation would not ensure that the elderly are taken care of appropriately? What kind of civilized nation would not ensure that someone like your father can have cancer treatments without having to declare bankruptcy?

I urge you to reconsider. You've been lucky that no one in your family has gotten sick. The problem is, plenty of people in your situation aren't that lucky. If your father did get sick, I imagine you'd be singing a very different tune.

 

[dd128]

I think most of the premeds in this thread need to realize the inherent problem with the healthcare system is the middlemen, aka insurance companies. Universal healthcare is not going to do much good as long as these guys are still running the show. Doctors are overburdened with how, when and where they are allowed to treat patients, which drive up costs and makes them devote time and energy into just doing paperwork that could be used volunteering their time or at least properly treating their existing patients and keeping their problems from escalating to more expensive problems. I'm just not entirely sure how we can have a healthcare crisis and have ceo's of various companies taking home multi million dollar incomes for doing virtually nothing.

 

[bawer234]

That old lady should have a wheelchair, and it should not depend on the generosity of a select few. What kind of civilized nation would not ensure that the elderly are taken care of appropriately? What kind of civilized nation would not ensure that someone like your father can have cancer treatments without having to declare bankruptcy?

I urge you to reconsider. You've been lucky that no one in your family has gotten sick. The problem is, plenty of people in your situation aren't that lucky. If your father did get sick, I imagine you'd be singing a very different tune.

I agree with you that everyone should have free health care but unfortunately its not possible. We as a people end up paying for it in one way or another, monetarily or otherwise.

Single payer systems might allow for the "lady's wheelchair" but what about her high cost health care expenses? When she gets cancer, heart disease, or some other form of chronic illness there will come a time when the "free care" stops coming. Its called rationing and its one of universal healthcare's biggest challenges.

Politicians and other individuals of power determine where the limited reasources are allocated. They are only willing to give so much free care to individuals b4 they pull the funding.

In that same example, suppose the lady was capable of paying for her medical expense but b/c she is recieving care from a single-payer system, she can not pay for the care. This ends up leading to her death. Its not a ficticious example, its reality and it does happen. Watch the 20/20 special that I posted above to see what she did.

 

[bawer234]

I think most of the premeds in this thread need to realize the inherent problem with the healthcare system is the middlemen, aka insurance companies. Universal healthcare is not going to do much good as long as these guys are still running the show. Doctors are overburdened with how, when and where they are allowed to treat patients, which drive up costs and makes them devote time and energy into just doing paperwork that could be used volunteering their time or at least properly treating their existing patients and keeping their problems from escalating to more expensive problems. I'm just not entirely sure how we can have a healthcare crisis and have ceo's of various companies taking home multi million dollar incomes for doing virtually nothing.

The problem can not be limited to the insurers. Im not saying that you are implying this but people have to understand that insurers aren't the bad guy. The "monster" we call insurance companies are a result of the system we created to deal with health care. Getting rid of the insurers is not the answer. The answer lies in HOW we utilize the insurers.

 

[Begaster]

I'm actually on part 6/6 of the 20/20 special, and it is quite poor. It completely disregards the mountains of preventative care literature (which would save billions in the long run). The entire segment on Canada was nonsense disguised as an argument (for example, the reason many towns don't have family physicians has nothing to do with a single-payer system and everything to do with the fact that Canadian schools have not been producing enough doctors to meet the rising demands). The segment about profit leading to innovation was a complete non-sequitur in regards to why a single-payer system is no good (would the cheques the government wrote pharmaceuticals be worth less than those written by insurance companies?).

At the end of the day, America pays more per capita than any other nation. Now take that money and eliminate the middle man that costs hospitals billions in wasted time. Then take both of those and add in preventive care which would save further billions by reducing incredibly expensive last-minute emergencies, and you could treat far more patients than the system currently is.

Would there be some rationing? Depends on your class. If you're in the working class or lower, you'd receive far more than you currently do. If you're part of the lucky few who are in the middle-upper or higher, you'd have longer wait times. In the long run, this is a fair trade-off. Most of the people who argue otherwise are not disinterested parties.

 

[Daydreamer2008]

I see what you're saying.

Let me put it this way,

for example, we're walking down the street and you see an old woman who is a cripple and she holds up a sign that says "i need some money for a wheel chair."

You want to give money to the lady, let's say you pull out 20 bucks out of your pocket.
Do you have the right to give her 20 bucks? Yes you do of course.


So then I'll do the same. Pull out 20 bucks out and give it to the lady. Do I have the right to give it to the lady? Of course I do.

Same scenario, the difference it I don't want to give the lady twenty bucks. You pull out your gun and point it to my head and say "hey give her 20 $." Do you have the right to do that? Of course not.

I do realize that not all people are really very unable to pay for health care & yes they do need assistance. (well duh heh). I just think there are better ideas than the single payer system Idk what the hell is the best idea out there but I'm sure as hell that it's not the single payer system.

So essentially you are also in favor of this scenario:

There is a boy who is 5 years old. He asks you, "Miss, I would like to read, become educated, and have a good future", in America, we say, hell yes! that's why we have public education (albeit, I admit not very good in many areas)
But you on the other hand, think you have a gun to your head and are being forced to give this little boy an education? Perhaps we should do away with public education as well if we go by your philosophy??

 

[dd128]

The problem can not be limited to the insurers. Im not saying that you are implying this but people have to understand that insurers aren't the bad guy. The "monster" we call insurance companies are a result of the system we created to deal with health care. Getting rid of the insurers is not the answer. The answer lies in HOW we utilize the insurers.

Oh I agree. All insurance companies aren't evil, and that they do serve a purpose. It's just that their ability to control how a physician practices is a large problem. They are more or less the doctors' bosses, and that creates problems in of itself. But I guess we've sort of digressed from the issue. The truth is universal healthcare won't work. Of course I want every american to have access to healthcare, but as it stands there isn't a real feasible way to accomplish this. As bill o'reily was saying when he interviewed hillary, if she puts that into practice it's basically going to bankrupt the country, haha more than it already is at least

 

[bawer234]

So essentially you are also in favor of this scenario:

There is a boy who is 5 years old. He asks you, "Miss, I would like to read, become educated, and have a good future", in America, we say, hell yes! that's why we have public education (albeit, I admit not very good in many areas)
But you on the other hand, think you have a gun to your head and are being forced to give this little boy an education? Perhaps we should do away with public education as well if we go by your philosophy??

That actually brings up another good point which is the free educational system we have in the US. People are beginning to question its effectiveness and are suggesting a more competition based model which has faired better (so far). Here's another news special on that matter...(I'm beginning to think I'm starting to look like a Stossel maniac)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw

 

[scarletgirl777]

.

 

[8744]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

The Hippocratic Oath is not a manifesto for socialized medicine and it applies to your individual patient, not to every single potential patient as a class. There is also nothing in the oath that requires you to treat patients for free.

The rest of your question is meaningless.

 

[Livingapparatus]

The veterans have earned their healthcare by risking their lives in places that you have no guts to go to. They defend your right to say stupid things like the quote above.

You too can volunteer to serve the country and get free healthcare. Just do it.

absolutley

 

[Livingapparatus]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Yes

Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? No. I have worked 70 hours a week doing awful jobs, construction, roofing, etc and I always was able to choose between higher pay or have insurance. I took more money.

what perspective are you coming from?? Being born into a fiscally poor hispanic family in Phoenix I am coming from the perspective that you need to help yourself. I dont expect to get help from the goverment, healthcare is not a right. When I am a physician I dont want to pay money so someone else can get coverage. As disgusting as this may sound to you, I am not here on this earth to support people, I am not the communities servant.

The notion that the 40 million people without healthcare are all hard working people is ridiculous many of them are but alot of them are not.

Its not the job of the goverment to treat our health. If poverty has taught me something it is that you need to know how to help yourself not rely on other people because thats when you get burnt.

What else should I pay for? their car, their cable?

If you want to pay for your patients bill please do, thats very honorable. But just because thats what you do with your income dont make me pay for my patients.

 

[Livingapparatus]

Hummmm, I thought medical students have to take an oath to protect the health of all, not marginalize certain groups of people because they cannot pay. I have a few questions: of those of you who dislike universal health care, have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? what perspective are you coming from??

have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Yes

Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? No. I have worked 70 hours a week doing awful jobs, construction, roofing, etc and I always was able to choose between higher pay or have insurance. I took more money.

what perspective are you coming from?? Being born into a fiscally poor hispanic family in Phoenix I am coming from the perspective that you need to help yourself. I dont expect to get help from the goverment, healthcare is not a right. When I am a physician I dont want to pay money so someone else can get coverage. As disgusting as this may sound to you, I am not here on this earth to support people, I am not the communities servant.

The notion that the 40 million people without healthcare are all hard working people is ridiculous many of them are but alot of them are not.

Its not the job of the goverment to treat our health. If poverty has taught me something it is that you need to know how to help yourself not rely on other people because thats when you get burnt.

What else should I pay for? their car, their cable?

If you want to pay for your patients bill please do, thats very honorable. But just because thats what you do with your income dont make me pay for my patients.

 

[UVAbme2009]

I'm quite surprised that so many would like to see universal health care in this country.

Fixing health care isn't something you can just throw money at, or just give to all and make it better. Things have to change on so many different levels. Everybody has to play a role in fixing the system (patients, physicians, hospital administrators, health insurers, the government, etc.). There's not one solution that is easy nor would please everyone. The sad part is that things are only going to get worse.

If you haven't already, I suggest you read Dr. Garson's book on the myths of health care in this country.

 

[bawer234]

have you or your family ever lived in relative poverty, or lacked health insurance altogether? Yes

Have you worked 70 hours a week building homes or cleaning office buildings and despite your hard work, not been able to obtain health insurance? No. I have worked 70 hours a week doing awful jobs, construction, roofing, etc and I always was able to choose between higher pay or have insurance. I took more money.

what perspective are you coming from?? Being born into a fiscally poor hispanic family in Phoenix I am coming from the perspective that you need to help yourself. I dont expect to get help from the goverment, healthcare is not a right. When I am a physician I dont want to pay money so someone else can get coverage. As disgusting as this may sound to you, I am not here on this earth to support people, I am not the communities servant.

The notion that the 40 million people without healthcare are all hard working people is ridiculous many of them are but alot of them are not.

Its not the job of the goverment to treat our health. If poverty has taught me something it is that you need to know how to help yourself not rely on other people because thats when you get burnt.

What else should I pay for? their car, their cable?

If you want to pay for your patients bill please do, thats very honorable. But just because thats what you do with your income dont make me pay for my patients.

 

[nu2004]

I agree with you, but I do see his logic too. Just got to accept not everyone thinks in that way I suppose. Risky? yes. But it's up to the individual to decide

i wasn't making a point, i was genuinely curious.

I believe the point of the post was to imply that not all people who are uninsured necessarly want it. They may decide to spend their income elsewhere. Not everyone is looking for a free handout.

i wasn't addressing you, but since you decided to stick your face into my exchange, i'll learn you some reality:

some people make the decision NOT to carry health insurance, like the previous poster's family. you see these people and applaud them for "not looking for a free handout." are you ****ing kidding me? who do you think pays their medical bills when one of them gets hit by a car, or gets cancer, or any of the thousands of other things that constitute a medical emergency? the government, and by proxy, the taxpayer. if they had made the responsible decision to have at least some minimal health coverage, it wouldn't come to that. but no, they know exactly what they're doing. they're gambling and they know that Uncle Sam will be there to bail them out, not a private corporation whose business is mitigating crisis.

people are required to have some basic level of car insurance, they should be required to have some basic level of health insurance, too.

 

[Livingapparatus]

nu 2004 it was either I got more money so i could pay for the required car insurance and have food on the table for me and my family. Or take less pay and not have money to pay for car insurance or not having food on the table. It was a gamble and I made precautions in order to make sure I didnt lose that gamble. So dont tell me whats responsible when its either health insurance or feeding my brothers because I am not gonna let them miss meals so I can have a crappy health plan that there not even going to be covered under. Thanks for the advice though next time i will definetly go with a hungry family.

 

[nu2004]

nu 2004 it was either I got more money so i could pay for the required car insurance and have food on the table for me and my family. Or take less pay and not have money to pay for car insurance or not having food on the table. It was a gamble and I made precautions in order to make sure I didnt lose that gamble. So dont tell me whats responsible when its either health insurance or feeding my brothers because I am not gonna let them miss meals so I can have a crappy health plan that there not even going to be covered under. Thanks for the advice though next time i will definetly go with a hungry family.

oh boo hoo, the knife is turning in my heart... not that i can understand what the hell you're saying.

 

[bawer234]

i wasn't making a point, i was genuinely curious.



i wasn't addressing you, but since you decided to stick your face into my exchange, i'll learn you some reality:

some people make the decision NOT to carry health insurance, like the previous poster's family. you see these people and applaud them for "not looking for a free handout." are you ****ing kidding me? who do you think pays their medical bills when one of them gets hit by a car, or gets cancer, or any of the thousands of other things that constitute a medical emergency? the government, and by proxy, the taxpayer. if they had made the responsible decision to have at least some minimal health coverage, it wouldn't come to that. but no, they know exactly what they're doing. they're gambling and they know that Uncle Sam will be there to bail them out, not a private corporation whose business is mitigating crisis.

people are required to have some basic level of car insurance, they should be required to have some basic level of health insurance, too.

Wow, I didn't realize how greatly two sentences could affect you. You seem to be a really emotional individual.

Chill out, I was just clearing up what the post was saying. Why pick fights on SDN???? You don't have to reduce yourself like this.

 

[Livingapparatus]

oh boo hoo, the knife is turning in my heart... not that i can understand what the hell you're saying.

wow! I dont really understand what your getting so heated about there was a question posted and I put up my experience. To me food on the table was more important than a POS insurance plan. Minimal insurance isnt going to cover crap if something were to happen to me. I need the money I earn.

I am a bit confused by your view do you believe in universal health care because you think everyone deserves healthcare or because you dont want to pick up the bill on the uninsured?

 

[nu2004]

wow! I dont really understand what your getting so heated about there was a question posted and I put up my experience. To me food on the table was more important than a POS insurance plan. Minimal insurance isnt going to cover crap if something were to happen to me. I need the money I earn.

I am a bit confused by your view do you believe in universal health care because you think everyone deserves healthcare or because you dont want to pick up the bill on the uninsured?

i wasn't referring to you, dude, i was referring to the girl who said her father chooses not to have health insurance. i didn't read your story and i wasn't trying to level a personal attack against you.

i don't have a firm position on universal healthcare because i think there are too many issues involved to simply say that it's "good" or "bad." my core belief is that all people should act in a responsible manner -- not carrying some form of health insurance is, in my view, irresponsible. re: your situation, i respect that you are helping to provide for your family, but if you aren't able to provide for them across the board, i think you actually could be doing more harm than good in the long run if something terrible happens and you all get dragged down by medical bills.

Chill out, I was just clearing up what the post was saying. Why pick fights on SDN???? You don't have to reduce yourself like this.

my goal wasn't to pick a fight, but it was either respond in a hostile tone or shoot myself in the face. it didn't seem like you really thought through the situation and instead just reverted to politically charged rhetoric, i.e. "looking for a free handout." believe it or not, some people really do have to rely on government services. by lumping all of them into the same group, you're severely lowering the level of the debate.

 

[bawer234]

i wasn't referring to you, dude, i was referring to the girl who said her father chooses not to have health insurance. i didn't read your story and i wasn't trying to level a personal attack against you.

i don't have a firm position on universal healthcare because i think there are too many issues involved to simply say that it's "good" or "bad." my core belief is that all people should act in a responsible manner -- not carrying some form of health insurance is, in my view, irresponsible. re: your situation, i respect that you are helping to provide for your family, but if you aren't able to provide for them across the board, i think you actually could be doing more harm than good in the long run if something terrible happens and you all get dragged down by medical bills.



my goal wasn't to pick a fight, but it was either respond in a hostile tone or shoot myself in the face. it didn't seem like you really thought through the situation and instead just reverted to politically charged rhetoric, i.e. "looking for a free handout." believe it or not, some people really do have to rely on government services. by lumping all of them into the same group, you're severely lowering the level of the debate.

You don't have a firm position b/c you probably haven't done your research.

You really believe your only two options are "to respond hostily or shoot yourself in the face"? You are trying to go into a profession, try to act like a professional.

"believe it or not, some people really do have to rely on government services"...are you for real?

 

[nu2004]

You don't have a firm position b/c you probably haven't done your research.

You really believe your only two options are "to respond hostily or shoot yourself in the face"? You are trying to go into a profession, try to act like a professional.

"believe it or not, some people really do have to rely on government services"...are you for real?

you're an idiot. i've done my research and i have a firm position on that view.

thanks for clearing that up.

 

[bawer234]

you're an idiot. i've done my research and i have a firm position on that view.

thanks for clearing that up.

I would have editted that post too...troll

 

[Depakote]

please keep the discussion in this thread civil, thanks.

 

[nu2004]

I would have editted that post too...troll

wanted to make sure i was being exceptionally clear wrt to my opinion of you. cheers

 

[167649]

anybody read The Healthcare Fix by Lawrence Kotlikoff???

its his proposal for a healthcare system that will work and reduce the fiscal gap/bring the U.S. out of economic ruin. if you read it....and think about it....his plan makes sense.

he argues that the main financial probem with the US healthcare system is the ridiculous amount of money spent on Medicare and Medicaid...specifcally Medicare....

he also argues that we have universal health insurance right now....its just awful. if you want health insurance...you will get it. you'll just have to go bankrupt and lose everything you own first...then the government will pay for you.

as far health insurance costs and uninsured.... the reason private insurers charge such high premiums is b/c htey dont know they are insuring. Does Joe X have a history of heart disease or perfect health? they have no idea...so they cover their asses just in case and charge 50K a year for health insurance....well most people (47 millino) cant afford that.

he proposes the government distribute insurance vouchers to EVERY citizen. the government can control the price of the voucher...so if you have a poor history of health you will get a bigger voucher. if you are a healthy 23 year old you will get a smaller voucher. once you get your voucher, you purchase your insurance. for the upcoming year, you are under that insurance and the insurer you purchased is responsible for anyting that happens. if you only hav ea 20K voucher but you have a heart attack and need procedures that cost 60K...insurer is down 40K. on the other hand, if you get an 80K voucher but only require 20K for the year... insurer is up 60K. so it works out. at the same time, since the insureres are paying for your health...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.... the insurers will have incentive to keep prices low.


theres the gist. if you are intersted you shold read the book. its only 90 pages. i left out a bunch of stuff but its pretty interesting.

p.s. i wrote a 5 pg paper about it if you want more of what his plan is about but cant read the book. just PM me if you want it, although id suggest just reading the book.

I would also recommend this book, because it is short and the first half presents a clear picture of how screwed we are going to be if we keep the status quo with medicare/caid. Regardless of if you agree with his solution or not, the first half is informative, especially for you premeds who think we should just expand medicare. Ugghh...

 

[mdmarty]

anybody read The Healthcare Fix by Lawrence Kotlikoff???

its his proposal for a healthcare system that will work and reduce the fiscal gap/bring the U.S. out of economic ruin. if you read it....and think about it....his plan makes sense.

he argues that the main financial probem with the US healthcare system is the ridiculous amount of money spent on Medicare and Medicaid...specifcally Medicare....

he also argues that we have universal health insurance right now....its just awful. if you want health insurance...you will get it. you'll just have to go bankrupt and lose everything you own first...then the government will pay for you.

as far health insurance costs and uninsured.... the reason private insurers charge such high premiums is b/c htey dont know they are insuring. Does Joe X have a history of heart disease or perfect health? they have no idea...so they cover their asses just in case and charge 50K a year for health insurance....well most people (47 millino) cant afford that.

he proposes the government distribute insurance vouchers to EVERY citizen. the government can control the price of the voucher...so if you have a poor history of health you will get a bigger voucher. if you are a healthy 23 year old you will get a smaller voucher. once you get your voucher, you purchase your insurance. for the upcoming year, you are under that insurance and the insurer you purchased is responsible for anyting that happens. if you only hav ea 20K voucher but you have a heart attack and need procedures that cost 60K...insurer is down 40K. on the other hand, if you get an 80K voucher but only require 20K for the year... insurer is up 60K. so it works out. at the same time, since the insureres are paying for your health...NOT THE GOVERNMENT.... the insurers will have incentive to keep prices low.


theres the gist. if you are intersted you shold read the book. its only 90 pages. i left out a bunch of stuff but its pretty interesting.

p.s. i wrote a 5 pg paper about it if you want more of what his plan is about but cant read the book. just PM me if you want it, although id suggest just reading the book.

It's an excellent little book that can be read in like 2-3 hours at your bookstore. Highly recommended.

The voucher idea is certainly the best I've seen. It, however, relies heavily on having a centrilzed electronic medical records database, similar to Google Health and Microsoft Vault, and one that will be largely controlled by the goverment. Kotlikoff (rightfully) argues though that granting the government full access to your records is safe; after all, records for Medicare and Medicaid patients have been safe for over 30 years.

The main idea is that insurers will not discriminate between patients/customers b/c the government will pay the cost difference anyways. Finally, by keeping the insurance companies in the game, medicine still remains private and you avoid many of the disadvantages of a traditional universal healthcare system, like waiting months for a 'non-essential' operation.

 

[sunshinefun]

I'm going to guess the answer to this is no. When you have people coming here and stating that they "earned" everything they've done, and everyone is responsible for everything they experience, you have to imagine these people don't know any true hardship.

A black kid who's born in a ghetto to a crack-addict mother and a deadbeat dad may be able to succeed, but he's going to need a lot more luck and skill than your average middle-class white kid. Until people start to understand that the grand majority of what they take for granted as their accomplishments is little more than luck (circumstantial and genetic), they won't realize that those at the bottom aren't just there because they're too lazy. Yeah, personal responsibility does have some place in society, but when you stack the deck so heavily against someone, you can't honestly expect success and then blame failure on that person's inadequacies. It's bull****.

Katarzyna, so what you're telling me is that your father doesn't deserve quality health care? He hasn't earned it? You try to keep healthy, so I guess that means cancer can't hit your family. Or CHD.

good point.