University of Michigan Anesthesiology

[AK_MD2BE]

Does anybody on this forum have any information about U of Michigan anesthesia? (i.e. are the residents happy, is it a good place to train, etc.) I would love to get some information from people who have either trained there in the past or are currently at U of M or who have interviewed this year. Also, what would you GUESS (I know there is no way to know for sure) that the average Step 1 score of the residents at U of M is? I realize that there is more to the application than your Step 1 score...but I am just curious what kind of score would a person a very competitive applicant in their eyes. Thanks for your time and information. 🙂

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[scotchnwater]

Here's the review I wrote for U Michigan - I really liked the program quite a bit (especially the didactic component of it) and the only reason it's not higher is because of it's location (we wanted a bigger city to live in) although a lot of people LOVE Ann Arbor.

I don't know what to tell you about how competitive it is. Since it is a large program in a location that's not typically thought of as "super-desirable" my guess would be that it's not as competitive to get in to as other programs of similar caliber. I think the best way to figure out if you're competitive somewhere is to hit "Apply" on ERAS and see what happens.

University of Michigan –
Very large program (24 spots per year – all categorical). PGY-1 year consists of a 2-week “Anesthesia Boot Camp” which is an intensive introduction to the field done in either May or June of your PGY-1 year. CA-1 year has 4 wk “specialty” rotations (OB, ENT, Neuro, Cardiac, etc) to solidify skills in certain areas instead of switching on a day-to-day basis.

Michigan has a very advanced perioperative data system that currently has over 500,000 patients in it. This has made clinical research easier. In addition, their ORs are all computerized. There is a definite emphasis on technology at this place.

Call starts at 11:00 unless you’re a CA-3, and you come in at 15:00. Post-call day is off, and post post-call day is pre-op holding area so you don’t have to spend your post-call day doing pre-ops for the next day’s patients (catch all of that...?). To facilitate all this call scheduling, there are CRNA’s and there is purportedly an excellent working relationship.

Residents meet regularly with faculty in many settings (grand rounds, lunchtime lectures, etc). The Dept Chair is very involved in resident education. He spoke with us for an hour at 7:00 am on a Saturday, then spent the rest of the morning interviewing. He even showed up for the dinner that evening and brought his son. I believe he's one of the longest-serving current Dept. Chairs in the country.

The salary is great, and you get a 7% annual bonus each November which you can either use for cash, or invest it tax-free - this is on top of the great cost of living in Ann Arbor. 4 weeks of vacation each year (a bunch of places only give you 3).

 

[deleted9493]

I agree, the didactics seemed to be pretty awesome. I walked out of there feeling as though it was a very strong program in pretty much every regard with a lot of the perks that you find at financially 'well-off' departments.

It is in Michigan, so winters are going to be on the rough side but on an optimistic note, Ann Arbor doesn't get as much snow as one might think. Living in west Michigan or in a city like Chicago would be much more brutal in that regard.

 

[AirBubble]

I interviewed with Tremper in January and he told me that the average Step I score this year was "...235 with plenty of 250's and 260's". That being said, I got the impression that they were interested in your total package and not just your numerical indicies.

 

[scotchnwater]

I interviewed with Tremper in January and he told me that the average Step I score this year was "...235 with plenty of 250's and 260's". That being said, I got the impression that they were interested in your total package and not just your numerical indicies.

I wouldn't worry too much about that if you're not rollin' around with a 274 Step 1 or something. I definitely had below a 235 and I got plenty of interviews at top places (you can see where in my program reviews). If your Step 1 is average (or even below) you can do a ton of things to make up for it: take Step 2 early and do well, have great 3rd year grades, have good research/outside activities, etc.

It was definitely my experience that programs categorically put much more emphasis on my total package than that one score

 

[skittlesUofM]

I interviewed with Tremper in January and he told me that the average Step I score this year was "...235 with plenty of 250's and 260's". That being said, I got the impression that they were interested in your total package and not just your numerical indicies.

Ann arbor is a great place to live, lots of fun stuff to do, great university atmosphere, I got the impression that after the first year the schedule isn't too bad. But make no mistake about it, you will work your a** of the first year. You might as well sign up for a prelim surgery spot cause you do about 8months of it. They say it makes you a better MD, not sure how replacing K+ at 3am will help me when I'm in the OR tho. If I wasn't from the area I would for sure go there. I wouldn't worry about it being too competitive cause they have all sorts of residents, FMGs, US MD and DO's in the class. I think someone said they go down to 100 on their rank list.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Forgive me, I am a little confused. One post here claims that the average score is 235 (which seems to be ultra-competitive for anesthesiology, where the average is only 221). Another post says that it is not very competitive b/c there are a mix of MD's, DO's and IMG's. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

 

[mmag]

For me a draw back of the program was the clinical base year since all the spots are catagorical. Neurosurgery, Vascular, and Transplant were not something I wanted to do.

Ann arbor is a great place to live, lots of fun stuff to do, great university atmosphere, I got the impression that after the first year the schedule isn't too bad. But make no mistake about it, you will work your a** of the first year. You might as well sign up for a prelim surgery spot cause you do about 8months of it. They say it makes you a better MD, not sure how replacing K+ at 3am will help me when I'm in the OR tho. If I wasn't from the area I would for sure go there. I wouldn't worry about it being too competitive cause they have all sorts of residents, FMGs, US MD and DO's in the class. I think someone said they go down to 100 on their rank list.

 

[eagle0990]

The average last year was above 230. I dont know what the average this year is. There are no FMG's in the program, but there is a mix of MDs and DOs. On a side note, the clinical base year is not easy, but will get you to know your surgical colleagues and grow as a physician. The CA-2 year is the toughest non-intern year, but by no means too hard. Overall, the work hours are not too bad.

 

[AK_MD2BE]

Besides the number of hours worked/week, what are the other factors that are considered in "resident happiness"? Also, I was speaking to some of the anesthesiology residents here at Saint Louis University, and they said they average about 65 hours/week. Is that about par for the course? Somebody posted above that the intern year is pretty brutal at U of M, but does it get better in the CA 1-3 years? Thanks.

 

[Terrax]

Hey all, I know it is getting very late in the matching process (as most of you have your rank lists primed for final submission), but I just wanted to comment a little on the intern year as a whole for the U of M. Currently I am replying during one of my CVC (Cardiovascular Care) ICU calls, you do have some free time even during call nights. It is important to understand that regardless of where you go for intern year, you are still an intern. I agree that some programs are lighter in terms of medicine versus surgery; however, your call nights are going to average Q4-6 and your hours will be 60-80 hours. This is accentuated by the fact you are coming off a year that has THE most disposable free time in your life (aka 4th yr med school), to a year that requires a little more effort than 9 to 5 🙄

I personally liked my three surgical rotations, there are only three months of surgery your intern year. As mentioned above, call on surgery starts at 7 am and ends around 9am the following day. It is quite valuable to work with your co-anesthesia interns, but especially working with surgical interns and attendings. This makes a big difference in the three years you are on the other side of the "Blood/Brain Barrier." Do not forget about the 3 months of no call/weekends of Acute pain/Pain Clinic, Pre-op Clinic (9am - 4pm at the latest), Anesthesiology, and no call month of ED. I can honestly say, this is a great group of individuals, from staff to residents.

I will post another reply in the next week if any of you have questions, but the point I would like to make is, every Anesthesia resident at the U of M smiles at me when they see me and state...it is definitely worth the wait 👍

Thank you all and best wishes on the upcoming Match

 

[Med0000]

I have interviewed at a bunch of programs and UMich definitely has the most brutal intership of them all. 9 months of call and 3 months of surgery! I have no doubt that when (and if) you finish the year you will know a lot and hit the ground running CA1 year.

 

[seinfeld]

Food for thought:

What does it say about one's work ethic if you more concerned about getting an easy intern year than a great education/expierence. If you follow through with that thought process you would rather be a lazy, uneducated anethesiologist than a smart, well trained one who knows how to work his/her butt off.

Which do you think is more valuable to a future employer?

Undergrad and medical schoool taught us all to search for the answers that would help us pass exams, and in the end that's all that mattered. Once you hit residency your mindset needs to change. You need to start thinking about one day being on your own having to make split second decisions; a totally different skill set. If go through the motions in residency you will find yourself putting future patients at risk. I have seen residents go through the motions until that one bad outcome comes along and then most seem to get it.

 

[scotchnwater]

Food for thought:

What does it say about one's work ethic if you more concerned about getting an easy intern year than a great education/expierence. If you follow through with that thought process you would rather be a lazy, uneducated anethesiologist than a smart, well trained one who knows how to work his/her butt off.

Which do you think is more valuable to a future employer?

Undergrad and medical schoool taught us all to search for the answers that would help us pass exams, and in the end that's all that mattered. Once you hit residency your mindset needs to change. You need to start thinking about one day being on your own having to make split second decisions; a totally different skill set. If go through the motions in residency you will find yourself putting future patients at risk. I have seen residents go through the motions until that one bad outcome comes along and then most seem to get it.

I think there is a vast difference between someone scouring the country in search of the easiest TY possible and someone simply trying to ensure that they're not about to get screwed by going to an unreasonably difficult/demanding intern year.

It is a fallacy to presume that the strength of one's work ethic is directly proportional to the number of hours worked per week. Do you really think that doing 80+ hours a week of scutwork will make someone a better physician? Why would you pass judgment on someone for trying to work smarter instead of harder? I would hesitate before underestimating the contribution of reading, exercising, and spending time with loved ones to one's educational experience.

I am all for hard work and intend to continue to work hard in my education and career, but I would take serious issue with a program that required me to spend a lot of time doing minimally educational work. Your last post makes it sound like you're in the camp of folks that says "there's educational value in every case" as justification for making residents work long hours doing lap appys and eye cases.

 

[Leverage]

still kicking myself that I did not apply to this program. I have only heard great thingsabout UM

 

[seinfeld]

I think you inferred too much about my character and belief system from my first post.

All I was saying is that if you want to be a good anesthesiologist go to the best program educationally for you to learn anesthesia, if that means taking it the chin for a year then perhaps that’s ok. Don’t be nearsighted is the true message.

 

[Passthegas]

Deleted

 

[drchick331]

I'm currently an anesthesiology intern at UMich and all I have to say is one thing. The internship sucks big donkey balls. No wonder we had 7 unfilled postions in the match. Guess the word gets around. I haven't learned **** but I work all the time. Peace.

Care to elaborate? 🙁

 

[nociceptor]

The internship sucks big donkey balls.

I sometimes suck big donkey balls when I need my fix.

I remember when someone on this board trashed FLORIDA. It seemed to have worked because my understanding is that they went WAY down on their rank list this year.

The power of SDN postings.

 

[Ender]

I'm currently an anesthesiology intern at UMich and all I have to say is one thing. The internship sucks big donkey balls. No wonder we had 7 unfilled postions in the match. Guess the word gets around. I haven't learned **** but I work all the time. Peace.

Passthegas must be having a bad month. I have had my share of bad months, however, now that the year is almost over I am very excitied to join the ranks of the CA1's. This place has the best overall package of any program I looked at. They have fantastic training, treat you very well CA1-CA3 years, and give you great job prospects when you graduate (the Michigan name goes a long way especially with the large number of alumni just about everywhere).

Intern year here is though and that is something that you have to consider when chosing a program. Sure I could have gone to a small private program that doesn't make you work more that 3 hours a day and has a board pass rate of 40% (obviously joking, I hope this doesn't exist), but I was interested in my future job prospects. Most importantly I wanted to be well trained. You will see everything here, that is the nature of a tertiary care center. As a CA1 -3 you will be treated like gold and you will not be overworked, but you will learn a ton. In these years you are treated much better than any other top programs that I looked at. Fortunately the intern year gets better every year. They are talking about getting rid of a month of call for next year and making some other small changes that will make a big difference.

Honestly there were times during intern year when I felt similar to Passthegas, however, looking back now I am glad I came here. I would much rather have a crappy intern year and 3 nice anesthesia years than to have a cush intern year and 3 crappy anesthesia years. You decide what you want.

 

[Gator05]

Not too sure about Florida going way down on our match; we're pretty happy with our list for this year.

Also, the issue with the lack of support/long days is markedly improved. As I noted, we hit a rut, fixing it, and moving forward.

To future applicants, a tip: ask residents how their programs have handled adversity in the past. UNC, for instance, hit a rut several years ago, and is now even stronger from what I understand. These issues will eventually strike all academic anesthesiology programs. Will yours be prepared?

 

[Breathe08]

Terrax and Ender,

Thanks for your input on U Mich's intern year. Its good to know that it is manageable! I have heard it was brutal, but I'm glad to see that administration is making some positive changes -- getting rid of an extra call month is pretty sweet.

I'm not afraid of working hard as long as I'm learning something valuable. In fact, I'd rather bust my a$$ during my intern year, gain some core knowledge and experience, and feel comfortable during the transition from PGY1 to CA1 year, than have a "cush" intern year and be scared $hitless. I have a lot of friends who are doing other specialities like surgery, ortho, neurosurg, and even IM who will be putting in at LEAST 80 hours a week, so the fact that I may have to do this for 1 year is fine by me. I've interviewed at plenty of other programs where the hours are usually 65-75 hrs/week x 4 years.

I think of all the other people who would kill to have a chance to be a physician, or I think of my parents who put 70+ hours doing manual labor, and I think about how freakin' lucky I am to be in my position!

So again, thanks for your perspectives, and I'll see you all in June along with the rest of the Michigan Mafia! 😎

 

[Mman]

I'm still not a fan of such a large residency program. Do the residents still cover every (or nearly every) room in the OR each day? Because there are a lot of crappy cases every day that need to be done.

I also seem to recall a number of CA2s a few years ago complaining about their CA3 schedules. They had a number of people in their class planning on doing OB fellowships that weren't even able to do a single month of OB as a CA3 because they only have 1 senior resident per month on the OB service. Has that sort of scheduling been changed?



Don't get me wrong, it's a nice program in a nice hospital in a nice town. But I can think of a few that I would consider better for a number of reasons.

 

[AirBubble]

I received an email today from UMich soliciting feedback as to why I decided to rank other programs above them. They also mentioned that they request this information annually from their top candidates who match elsewhere. Am I as special as I feel right now? Can I hang out I with the cool kids now?

 

[UMMS FMD]

I received an email today from UMich soliciting feedback as to why I decided to rank other programs above them. They also mentioned that they request this information annually from their top candidates who match elsewhere. Am I as special as I feel right now? Can I hang out I with the cool kids now?

I got the same e-mail today... sorry to burst your bubble. I'm definitely not cool 😀

 

[AirBubble]

I got the same e-mail today... sorry to burst your bubble. I'm definitely not cool 😀

No offense taken. Maybe you can come over to my house and play tennis with mii on my Wii when you're frii.

 

[Ender]

I'm still not a fan of such a large residency program. Do the residents still cover every (or nearly every) room in the OR each day? Because there are a lot of crappy cases every day that need to be done.

I also seem to recall a number of CA2s a few years ago complaining about their CA3 schedules. They had a number of people in their class planning on doing OB fellowships that weren't even able to do a single month of OB as a CA3 because they only have 1 senior resident per month on the OB service. Has that sort of scheduling been changed?

Don't get me wrong, it's a nice program in a nice hospital in a nice town. But I can think of a few that I would consider better for a number of reasons.

Obviously I have not started my anesthesia years yet, however, I know we do not cover all the rooms. We have a lot of CRNAs that cover rooms and also relieve us so we can go to lectures, lunches, meetings, breaks, etc. Getting proceedures here is NEVER an issue. We do plenty of epidurals (thoracic, lumbar, for pain control on pregs and non pregs alike). The issue with OB (which has since been resolved) is the timing of the rotation. People wanted their first rotation of it earlier in their training. No one that I have heard of wants to or feels the need to do more OB. If someone else has more information feel free to correct me. Like I said I am still an intern.

For those of you that ranked other programs higher than michigan, the most helpful thing you can do is be honest with your feedback and do not try to sugar coat it. If you thought the intern year looked like hell than say so. If you wanted 11 months of OB 🙄 and we really did not offer that then let us know.

Ender

 

[Dawkter]

Is the intern year at U of M still as bad as many have mentioned in this thread?

 

[DrBeaker]

Why are you worried about a tough intern year? Work hard, get pounded, learn a lot. You'll notice you are ahead of the game compared to your fellow CA1's who did a cush TY in slackerville.

 

[Nooblet]

Is the intern year at U of M still as bad as many have mentioned in this thread?

its a surgery heavy intern year.

 

[scudrunner]

Why are you worried about a tough intern year? Work hard, get pounded, learn a lot. You'll notice you are ahead of the game compared to your fellow CA1's who did a cush TY in slackerville.

Ahead of the game? Probably not in terms of anesthesia knowledge. A cush intern year would allow a lot of reading time. Also, if you have a family, hours worked during intern year matters a lot. I don't see the benefit of doing a grueling intern year.

 

[DrBeaker]

I would argue yes you would be ahead of the game, even in anesthesia knowledge. The benefit is working hard and learning. Both valuable as an anesthesia resident. There is a difference between a resident who did a tough intern year/anesthesia residency and one who went the cushy route or got relieved at 3 pm everyday. You can just tell.

 

[Mr Wizard]

I would argue yes you would be ahead of the game, even in anesthesia knowledge. The benefit is working hard and learning. Both valuable as an anesthesia resident. There is a difference between a resident who did a tough intern year/anesthesia residency and one who went the cushy route or got relieved at 3 pm everyday. You can just tell.

You get ahead of the game because you do it yourself. This discussion of work hours is pointless. Lazy sacks are going to be lazy sacks regardless of a "punishing" residency versus a cush one.Choosing a training program that offers more clinical breadth and opportunities is the more appropriate discussion. Work hours often correlate with the learning but this infatuation with "hours" is just a topic that is perpetuated by trainees missing the entire point of residency.

 

[seinfeld]

You don't make $500,000 by simply graduating an anesthesia residency. Job pay and more importantly job secruity comes from being the best at whatever you do and showing your willing to work hard for your surgeons, patients, and your colleagues.

If your goal is to "get by" then you will be just getting by the rest of your life.

 

[vector2]

Why are you worried about a tough intern year? Work hard, get pounded, learn a lot. You'll notice you are ahead of the game compared to your fellow CA1's who did a cush TY in slackerville.

I'm only 11 days into intern year (on medicine wards currently), but I feel like I've got the work hard, get pounded part covered. The problem is I don't feel like I have any time to actually sit down and think about patients or the nuances of their management during the day (mostly just grab labs, round with attending, file notes, do scut), and by the time I go home after 12 hrs at the hospital the last thing I want to do is crack open some Harrison's or peruse uptodate. I think having a cush intern year would be a windfall for those who actually want to read and build their knowledge base rather than be the best at tracking down charts and consulting social workers to get their gomers out faster....

 

[imfrankie]

I'm only 11 days into intern year (on medicine wards currently), but I feel like I've got the work hard, get pounded part covered. The problem is I don't feel like I have any time to actually sit down and think about patients or the nuances of their management during the day (mostly just grab labs, round with attending, file notes, do scut), and by the time I go home after 12 hrs at the hospital the last thing I want to do is crack open some Harrison's or peruse uptodate. I think having a cush intern year would be a windfall for those who actually want to read and build their knowledge base rather than be the best at tracking down charts and consulting social workers to get their gomers out faster....

Hang in there. It can hurt. Don't overthink it...you'll learn a lot about stuff you'll never learn in books. Before long...poof, it's over. Really, I remember it well. One of the best days of my life--that and getting out of the Army.

 

[stimmed]

the internship is pretty useful:

ENT month - use the fiberoptic scope in the office, assist in operative airways
neurosurgery month - learn to manage neurosurgical emergencies
vascular surgery month - learn to manage vasculopaths including ACS, acute limb ischemia, strokes, diabetes, etc.
transplant surgery month - learn to manage transplant complications including livers
gen med month - learn to manage standard medical problems including CHF, COPD, PNA, DM, infections, etc
cardiac med month - learn to manage mostly acute and chronic coronary syndromes like a cardiologist would
research month - relax and if you like research start on that path
TICU x 2 months - learn to manage cardiothoracic surgical patients including VADs, lung transplants, heart transplants, standard valve repairs, TAVI's, THE's, major vascular surgeries, etc

If you think this stuff is irrelevant to anesthesia or that reading baby miller would be more beneficial... I must disagree!

It's hard but not too hard. You're respected as a person and hours average in the 60's to 70's on the busy months. There's no hand-holding on the surgical services so as an early intern it's rough but once you become good at being an intern it's manageable.