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Unranked Med school to Top 10 Residency Program, Possible?
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Which school are you going to? Sounds like where I went. Med school rank matters little. The school I went to matches to great programs every year, including Hopkins, Emory, etc. More than anything, field and geography will dictate access for a small/unranked school. For instance, our school rarely matches at places like Stanford or UCSF. The faculty who are writing the recommendations are simply less well known there.
That being said, anything is possible. I did so-so at a top 15 undergrad and only got in 1 place. It turned out to be a perfect school for me. I did great, got interviews at some big name places (Wisconsin, Emory) and ultimately matched at my number 1 in plastics. Work hard, do well on your boards, do some research, be nice to everyone and you will be fine.
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It sounds like you just want a top 10 residency to feel less insecure, not for any real end goal.
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It's possible to match into a top residency from an unranked med school provided that you are at the top of your class, but I disagree with the others in this thread that your med school rank matters little in how you do in the match. There's a reason that top med schools have amazing match lists despite Step 1 averages similar to most other schools. Being in the middle of the class/getting average board scores at an unranked school will likely preclude you from a top residency, while being in the middle of the class or getting average board scores at Harvard or Stanford will still get you into a top residency.
That said, if you are at the very top of your class at an unranked US MD school, you'll still be competitive for all top programs.
That said, if you are at the very top of your class at an unranked US MD school, you'll still be competitive for all top programs.
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So what?
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This--I went to a middle tier medical school, and we had students match to virtually every "big name" program in the country--hopkins, harvard, duke, stanford, etc. It's all about you.
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Bright-eyed MS0 ITT.
It's possible, but based on probability, unlikely. Good luck.
It's possible, but based on probability, unlikely. Good luck.
D
deleted547339
There are two important things here:
1 - Going to a "top 10 program in competitive field" isn't going to make you happy. Being in ortho, or nsg, or radonc at Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, wherever isn't going to make you happy. Period. Life's not that simple. You need to figure out what you want to do and then figure out where you want to go (in that order). It's a great idea to keep your options open and aim high, but your first goal should just be "get through my first test" then "get an A in this class" then ...... much later down the line figure out your field (the one you like, not the one that makes someone else say 'oh and ah') then, only after you interview, where you want to go. I ended up at a program where I never intended on interviewing - only on a whim did I go but I was amazing - thought it topped every other program at which I interviewed. When I told my parents and my mother and father-in-law where I wanted to go, they said "Oh, that's nice."
2. Yes, you can match any specialty and any program from any med school, with very few exceptions. I went to an unranked med school and got surveys after match day from "top programs" that were lower on my match list than where I matched. They wanted to know why I didn't rank them higher. It happens every year.
1 - Going to a "top 10 program in competitive field" isn't going to make you happy. Being in ortho, or nsg, or radonc at Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, wherever isn't going to make you happy. Period. Life's not that simple. You need to figure out what you want to do and then figure out where you want to go (in that order). It's a great idea to keep your options open and aim high, but your first goal should just be "get through my first test" then "get an A in this class" then ...... much later down the line figure out your field (the one you like, not the one that makes someone else say 'oh and ah') then, only after you interview, where you want to go. I ended up at a program where I never intended on interviewing - only on a whim did I go but I was amazing - thought it topped every other program at which I interviewed. When I told my parents and my mother and father-in-law where I wanted to go, they said "Oh, that's nice."
2. Yes, you can match any specialty and any program from any med school, with very few exceptions. I went to an unranked med school and got surveys after match day from "top programs" that were lower on my match list than where I matched. They wanted to know why I didn't rank them higher. It happens every year.
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I believe the answer to be a little more complicated than "yes" or "no".
Of course, it depends on you, your exam scores, LORs, etc. and choice of "competitive" field, but I believe that the insistence that school ranking doesn't matter is too simplistic.
Yes, there are "no name" schools that send students to residencies at much more visible programs. However, a program with a name that John Q Public recognizes isn't necessarily the best place to train, nor are all affiliated programs created equal. For example, many places will crow about sending residents to Hopkins but in reality the resident is training at a community program with Hopkins affiliation - this is not the same thing as training at the mothership. But that being said, many residency programs which are widely considered to be excellent are places that no one has heard of except those in the field. Thus, do not equate "Top 5" with something that has name brand recognition.
In addition, we cannot ignore that especially for competitive residencies there are biases. It is well documented that most top tier surgical programs will not take DOs or FMGs. If you peruse the list of medical schools at those programs, you will see a high percentage are from other top tier programs. Thus, training at a well recognized medical school IS an advantage to the top programs especially when you are considering a competitive specialty. I know this is an unpopular sentiment but the fact is that pedigree does matter to some extent even with a stellar application. If a program holds such a bias, then it will be difficult if not impossible to overcome that.
Of course, it depends on you, your exam scores, LORs, etc. and choice of "competitive" field, but I believe that the insistence that school ranking doesn't matter is too simplistic.
Yes, there are "no name" schools that send students to residencies at much more visible programs. However, a program with a name that John Q Public recognizes isn't necessarily the best place to train, nor are all affiliated programs created equal. For example, many places will crow about sending residents to Hopkins but in reality the resident is training at a community program with Hopkins affiliation - this is not the same thing as training at the mothership. But that being said, many residency programs which are widely considered to be excellent are places that no one has heard of except those in the field. Thus, do not equate "Top 5" with something that has name brand recognition.
In addition, we cannot ignore that especially for competitive residencies there are biases. It is well documented that most top tier surgical programs will not take DOs or FMGs. If you peruse the list of medical schools at those programs, you will see a high percentage are from other top tier programs. Thus, training at a well recognized medical school IS an advantage to the top programs especially when you are considering a competitive specialty. I know this is an unpopular sentiment but the fact is that pedigree does matter to some extent even with a stellar application. If a program holds such a bias, then it will be difficult if not impossible to overcome that.
I agree with most of this, Dr. Cox. The only thing I would say is that while attending a top tier school may be an advantage, the OP asked if attending a lower tier/unranked school is a disadvantage. I would argue that it is not. Correlation is at play, not causation. There are statistically more competitive applicants from schools that are top tier. Yes, inbreeding occurs, but we cannot say how much of it is due to correlation from higher performing individuals already being at those institutions (I believe Chronicidal did an analysis of this, but I'm not sure it could account for this).
Bottom line is: if you work hard, it is certainly possible. Just look at one of the plastics interns at Hopkins. Graduated from a non-ranked Midwest MD school. Same for one at WashU.
Work as hard as you can, OP, and worry little about the things you cannot control.
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As someone who is on committees that hire surgeons, I can tell you that GS residencies at some of the big name academic places "ain't what they use to be"-- especially on the east coast. So much is now dependent on what's important to the Chair of Surgery and Program Director. In this day and age, the best community programs and mid-level academic programs are the cutting edge leaders in terms of inventing and adopting new techniques and equipment (they produce a lot of patents as well). Those programs want talent over pedigree, people with real skills with the "knife".
Just yesterday at MD Anderson, I assisted (I'm in IM) in a twelve hour surgical operation to remove several malignant tumors in various organs from a 45 year-old woman. Thirty people in the OR over those twelve hours including five surgeons, three of whom came from "mid-level" residencies and non-top 50 medical schools: SUNY Syracuse, Western Ontario and Texas Tech-- each of those three surgeons did oncological fellowships at MD Anderson or Memorial Sloan-Kettering. But, of course, MD Anderson is thick with grads from Harvard, UTSW, and Stanford, including the Department Chair of Surgical Oncology. 🙂 The point is that with good numbers across the board you will have a chance to compete with most everyone else.
Just yesterday at MD Anderson, I assisted (I'm in IM) in a twelve hour surgical operation to remove several malignant tumors in various organs from a 45 year-old woman. Thirty people in the OR over those twelve hours including five surgeons, three of whom came from "mid-level" residencies and non-top 50 medical schools: SUNY Syracuse, Western Ontario and Texas Tech-- each of those three surgeons did oncological fellowships at MD Anderson or Memorial Sloan-Kettering. But, of course, MD Anderson is thick with grads from Harvard, UTSW, and Stanford, including the Department Chair of Surgical Oncology. 🙂 The point is that with good numbers across the board you will have a chance to compete with most everyone else.
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So doing things because you feel inadequate is going to make you miserable down the road and you'll still always be insecure regardless.
You don't. Maybe you have a great reason. But I doubt it; there are precious few pre-meds that actually have idea any what constitutes a top 10 residency and why you'd want one. Most just want to be seen as the "best" and are prestige-whoring. Not that there aren't a ton of medical students with the same mindset - but, again, mostly miserable people.
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The pre-med track conditions pre-meds to be goal oriented. I agree that many of us probably don't know what constitutes a great residency, I for sure don't know and have been trying to figure it out since I got accepted. So in our ignorance, we cling to names and places we're familiar with. Like a lot of other things, 3rd and 4th year hopefully will produce a more thorough picture of what to look for in a residency.
Honestly, a lot of pre-meds including myself are bored and have just exited the rat race that was med school admissions. We're excited about med school and are trying to figure out what we can do in this 3 months of limbo between two very different phases of our lives.
So topics like this come up and we end up looking like gunners in the making. I think, to the contrary, we're just goal oriented individuals who want something to shoot for so we can hit the ground running. If, like someone suggested above, we become P=MD students - then so be it. I'm comfortable letting things unfold like they're going to. What I'm not comfortable with is going in and getting blindsided by the process, sitting there 4 years later wishing I had done more, studied more, researched more. I don't think anyone should knock anyone for aiming high. Residency is confusing for a lot of pre-meds. We're just trying to figure out the next rat race. What's that saying, "shoot for the stars, and you'll land on the moon." At least, that's how I'm looking at it. Hopefully, I won't be as miserable as you think I'll be.
Honestly, a lot of pre-meds including myself are bored and have just exited the rat race that was med school admissions. We're excited about med school and are trying to figure out what we can do in this 3 months of limbo between two very different phases of our lives.
So topics like this come up and we end up looking like gunners in the making. I think, to the contrary, we're just goal oriented individuals who want something to shoot for so we can hit the ground running. If, like someone suggested above, we become P=MD students - then so be it. I'm comfortable letting things unfold like they're going to. What I'm not comfortable with is going in and getting blindsided by the process, sitting there 4 years later wishing I had done more, studied more, researched more. I don't think anyone should knock anyone for aiming high. Residency is confusing for a lot of pre-meds. We're just trying to figure out the next rat race. What's that saying, "shoot for the stars, and you'll land on the moon." At least, that's how I'm looking at it. Hopefully, I won't be as miserable as you think I'll be.
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It's not like we weren't where you are just a few years ago. That's why we try to give advice based on our experiences.
And nobody is saying you shouldn't aim high. But if you don't even know what you're aiming at....
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Point taken haha. Hopefully that'll become a little more clear soon.
Thanks for the advice, I think it does really help guide us.
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Exactly this. Have goals. Work towards them. Don't set yourself up for disappointment by having unreasonable expectations. And seek help and advice when you deem it necessary.
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Sure, but I can also pretty much guarantee that your school's match list is nowhere near as impressive as that from Stanford or Harvard, even despite having similar board scores. My point is, you need to excel at a non-top school to make it to a "big name" program...while it's sufficient to be mediocre at a top med school to get into a "big name" program.
Eh...they send those surveys to everyone. I received a survey from my #1 asking why I hadn't ranked them higher, even though I didn't match there.
Winged Scapula said:
Exactly. This is what many people seem to purposefully ignore when they say that your school reputation doesn't matter.
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My advice as a recent graduate who recently matched into a competitive residency (radiology in california), is that you should take on only as much as you can excel at. If this means you don't get very many EC's, then so be it, but you shouldn't take on research, community service, etc. if you're going to just be mediocre at all of them on top of your coursework. Try to live a balanced life and try to have a lot of fun. Don't take yourself too seriously, and you have plenty of time to define your goals during the first two years of medical school. I know people who had their sights aimed high at the beginning of medical school, ended up taking on a lot of projects, and eventually remediating/dropping out of school. On the other hand, some of the coolest people I know who had no idea what they were interested in until the end of 3rd year are now headed to Mayo, MGH, UCSF, etc. to begin their training.
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If going to a top school is an advantage, then going to a lower tier/unranked school is, by definition, a disadvantage. It's all relative -- you can't have one thing be an advantage and the other not be a disadvantage. And while it's possible that top tier schools may statistically have more competitive applicants in terms of research or what not (though not likely that every single student at a top school has significantly more research than every single student at an average school), we can only judge by the only objective measure we have -- board scores -- which shows that top schools in fact have similar averages as any other school.
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This is a logical fallacy. It isn't a dichotomy. School reputation and inbreeding is one thing in a long checklist. It's a tick for the person who goes to the upper tier school. It is not a mark against the student from the lower school, which is what OP essentially asked.
I agree with the board score assessment, but again, this is just one of many in a big list (as you know, being a resident).
The reality is that higher achieving students tend to go to higher tier medical schools (as evidenced by MCAT scores and GPA). Even if this doesn't translate to board scores, these individuals tend to seek out more select fields in more select places (which is a fair portion of the match, right? Since the person has to be seeking that). My small, unranked school has a heavy primary care focus. Many research universities have a different focus.
Sorry. I have no objective data to support this. It's just conjecture. But the assertion remains the same: the OP should not be deterred by the tendency of competitive specialties to match upper tier alums.
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OP, take a step back. Think, breathe, unbuckle your belt a bit, and sit outside for a little bit. Tomorrow wake up at 5 am and smell what the wonders of creation on a early summer morning. Life is meant to enjoyed. We (humans) struggle sometimes to see what our existence is all about: why were we created in the first place? What is our purpose on this Earth?
There are multiple ways to find our purpose. The point is that you alone need to find gratitude in your existence. Do not fall into the realm of classifying yourself by the estimated prestige you find yourself in. For what is prestige? Prestige (as dictated by Merriam-Webster) is but standing or estimation in the eyes of (other) people. Do (other) people live your life? Will other people stand before the Lord when the time comes? Will other people take the Boards for you?
You made it this far on your own. You are the best judge of your life. Do not come judge yourself by impractical rankings made up by other people. Strive for the specialty you chose (and you chose alone). Apply, interview, where you want to learn/practice. It is your life.
With that said: Common knowledge dictates that if your Step 1+first author publications+Benching = 650 or above you are all set.
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I totally understand your feelings, OP. I feel like if I don't choose a specialty right now, I'm going to be at a serious disadvantage compared to everyone else if I want to go into something competitive (I want to do infectious disease now, but I hear everyone's choice changes).
For med school admissions, I was the mediocre applicant who struggled to get in. I'm not after something prestigious for the sake of its prestige, but I would like to have the chance to choose between options, including top tier places if I want, rather than being forced to accept whatever I can get. I love the school I got into, but it's not a good feeling to be limited by an average application. I want the opportunity to turn that around in med school.
For med school admissions, I was the mediocre applicant who struggled to get in. I'm not after something prestigious for the sake of its prestige, but I would like to have the chance to choose between options, including top tier places if I want, rather than being forced to accept whatever I can get. I love the school I got into, but it's not a good feeling to be limited by an average application. I want the opportunity to turn that around in med school.
D
deleted547339
People are going to pipe up and say "you don't know what you're talking about, I've always wanted to be a X, Y, Z" but almost everyone changes what they want to do. That's fine. I did. 3 times. The only people I know that didn't change what they wanted to do were sons/daughters of MDs who went into the field of their parents (although probably an equal number went into another field) or people going into peds - don't know why, seems like people interested in peds stay interested in peds.
Anyway, don't worry about things you can't control. Go into third year with an open mind and figure out what you like. Do you need to cut, or can you live without cutting? Make that decision, then consider your options.
You'll be OK. Breathe.
Good luck.
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Residency rankings are also a bit more variable. There are programs where you get the most clinical training in new thing "x", there are programs that give people the most research time, there are programs that force people to do the least research, there are programs that send everyone on to fellowships, there are programs that have fellowships in everything under the sun at the hospital, there are programs with only a few fellowships so their residents get more procedures, there are programs that only have one (or none) of the above features but is associated with a big name university so people assume it is good.
Having choices is great, but understand that there is a lot more variety in residency programs in terms of what people value. USNWR doesn't rank residency programs, it ranks hospital departments but some of the criteria are useful for considering residency programs and other criteria are not. So there is no big official list of which residency programs are the best in any specialty.
Having choices is great, but understand that there is a lot more variety in residency programs in terms of what people value. USNWR doesn't rank residency programs, it ranks hospital departments but some of the criteria are useful for considering residency programs and other criteria are not. So there is no big official list of which residency programs are the best in any specialty.
Not really true for many fields. Like all other walks of life, name matters a lot. Practices want to advertise their doctors trained at program X. Program X wants to advertise its students came from school Y. School Y wants to advertise its students came from college Z, and so on.
If your end goal is to practice a competitive/oversaturated specialty in a competitive/oversaturated location, then these things matter. If that's not your end goal, then you need to question if its all worth it.
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+1
I have no idea what I want to do. But it seems like if I don't line up (possibly specialty-specific) research and start getting to know physicians in whichever specialty shortly after stepping foot on campus I will be at a disadvantage.
Seriously, stop it. Focus on doing well in school rather than the possibility of not having options. I didn't decide to do plastics until over halfway through my third year, and I was more than fine. My research I had done was in ENT (which wasn't even what I wanted to do before plastics. It was just interesting research, which is all that really matters).
Research is the least of your worries if you get a 203 on step 1.
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Aren't some schools unranked simply because they choose not to send their info? Mayo is unranked, and I don't think that top residency programs would turn down a Mayo grad because his/her school isn't ranked. But obviously there is a distinction between unranked schools that would be considered top tier and those that would have a lesser rank.
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Correct, Mayo is unranked with no AOA
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You guys need to calm the hell down, honestly. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, but to be realistic. Trying to have a pre-conceived 100% (or any idea) about what you want to do is just not how you should do things. Or even worry. Med School is there to help you get an idea of what you'd like to do. That's what 3rd/4th year is for. Am I saying don't think of anything? No. I'm saying focus on classes. Do some research about fields if you're interested. If you have free time/if the school offers it - shadow or follow a doctor in a field you're interested in.
I'm done with 1st/2nd year and my experiences in class/hospitals, has definitely helped me rule out specialties I wouldn't enjoy. Am I 100% sure? No. But it's helped. It's also helped alleviate my hesitations about doing things I think I want to do like hem/onc or EM+Tox. Will things possibly change? Maybe. That's what the next two years are for.
To answer the original question - No, it doesn't. I've never heard of anyone with a stellar/good step 1 in a med school with good LOR getting shafted. People here/real life seem to think that being in a "lower ranked" school will screw them over. It won't. My friend who's probably going to get a 265 on step 1 will not have any issues if he does commit to rad/onc. He's brilliant. That step 1 (or even lesser important - grades in 1st/2nd year) will definitely play to his advantage.
You're in med school? You're already ahead of the game. Focus on what's important now - understanding/learning what's important. Study hard and get that awesome step 1 score. No one (except idiot admissions) will think twice if you have that step 1 and great LOR. My school is ranked 30th in the nation. If I was like you, I'd freak and think my chances weren't great. But it's not the case. If you do well in step 1 and get that LOR, you have a significant advantage in getting a residency you want in YOUR state and possible outside.
I'm not saying this based on my own experiences but from what I've read on here/seen in person/and people I've talked to.
Relax. If you feel comfortable w/ the material and you're doing well on Uworld, you won't be in any trouble.
I'm not even aiming high for residencies (like I said) but I still am studying hard for step 1. Not to get the highest score imaginable (my current score is more than fine) but because I want to understand these things for 3rd/4th year. Why? Because I want to be more comfortable with 3rd/4th year so I can try to at least give 10% of my attention to fields I'm interested in....
In the end - the only issue I've seen are people going Caribbean. Or... low ranked DO schools. By low ranked I mean places where they have to try to get rotations in any hospital and get shafted. DO's are not idiots/incompetent. But I think they do have a disadvantage at certain schools in getting those LOR in 3rd/4th year... but correct me if I'm wrong.
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You guys need to calm the hell down, honestly. I'm not saying that to be a jerk, but to be realistic. Trying to have a pre-conceived 100% (or any idea) about what you want to do is just not how you should do things. Or even worry. Med School is there to help you get an idea of what you'd like to do. That's what 3rd/4th year is for. Am I saying don't think of anything? No. I'm saying focus on classes. Do some research about fields if you're interested. If you have free time/if the school offers it - shadow or follow a doctor in a field you're interested in.
I'm done with 1st/2nd year and my experiences in class/hospitals, has definitely helped me rule out specialties I wouldn't enjoy. Am I 100% sure? No. But it's helped. It's also helped alleviate my hesitations about doing things I think I want to do like hem/onc or EM+Tox. Will things possibly change? Maybe. That's what the next two years are for.
To answer the original question - No, it doesn't. I've never heard of anyone with a stellar/good step 1 in a med school with good LOR getting shafted. People here/real life seem to think that being in a "lower ranked" school will screw them over. It won't. My friend who's probably going to get a 265 on step 1 will not have any issues if he does commit to rad/onc. He's brilliant. That step 1 (or even lesser important - grades in 1st/2nd year) will definitely play to his advantage.
You're in med school? You're already ahead of the game. Focus on what's important now - understanding/learning what's important. Study hard and get that awesome step 1 score. No one (except idiot admissions) will think twice if you have that step 1 and great LOR. My school is ranked 30th in the nation. If I was like you, I'd freak and think my chances weren't great. But it's not the case. If you do well in step 1 and get that LOR, you have a significant advantage in getting a residency you want in YOUR state and possible outside.
I'm not saying this based on my own experiences but from what I've read on here/seen in person/and people I've talked to.
Relax. If you feel comfortable w/ the material and you're doing well on Uworld, you won't be in any trouble.
I'm not even aiming high for residencies (like I said) but I still am studying hard for step 1. Not to get the highest score imaginable (my current score is more than fine) but because I want to understand these things for 3rd/4th year. Why? Because I want to be more comfortable with 3rd/4th year so I can try to at least give 10% of my attention to fields I'm interested in....
In the end - the only issue I've seen are people going Caribbean. Or... low ranked DO schools. By low ranked I mean places where they have to try to get rotations in any hospital and get shafted. DO's are not idiots/incompetent. But I think they do have a disadvantage at certain schools in getting those LOR in 3rd/4th year... but correct me if I'm wrong.
Honestly, this has been my mindset from the beginning. Indeed, these are some of the reasons why I chose the school that I did. According to rankings, it's not as good a school as others I was accepted to, but I feel that it's a solid school that I will ultimately be happier at. I guess I just have to keep reminding myself of this after reading some of the posts on here.
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Honestly, this has been my mindset from the beginning. Indeed, these are some of the reasons why I chose the school that I did. According to rankings, it's not as good a school as others I was accepted to, but I feel that it's a solid school that I will ultimately be happier at. I guess I just have to keep reminding myself of this after reading some of the posts on here.
This is kinda difficult for some people. Especially when you're receiving info from a message board. But personally, I honestly think my advice is correct and spot on. I know I'm only second year, but I've also paid attention to what people say and have friends who actually went through the process. They went to IU (where I am) and didn't have any issues. I mean, IU does have a preference for IU residents for residency so it's harder to get a residency here if you're OOS but it's not to say a great Step 1/LOR won't get you a residency here.
Plus - the school here has an AMAZING tox program for my fellowship if I choose to do it.
Long story short - peeps need to relax and focus on classes until 3rd/4th year. 🙂 Especially since you'll have the opportunity to do electives outside your school so you can try to do something in the state you're interested to get some influence in that program.
