unskilled dentist with no references

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crackerjack9999

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I'll be looking for an associate or staff dentist position in a few months.

I'm highly concerned about my prospects. As you can see from the title of my post, I don't have any references. ( actually, I would have some if I push a little harder but I think no references are better than poor references )

The other thing is I'm not that great of a dentist. I'd say I'm above average in doing cleanings and scaling and root planings. I'm average in operative procedures, but probably outstanding in doing Class I restorations. I'm slightly below average in removable/fixed pros. But I'm horrible with extractions and endo, to the extent where I'm not sure how to do them and I'm not comfortable doing them.

I absolutely don't know how to do anything else.

I want to work in a dental chain/mill group or in a city hospital. Am I being realistic? If not, are there any other dental positions that I have prospects for?
 
Thats unfortunate. Where did you attend dental school? How many of your classmates are in the same, bad position? You should think about a GPR or something I guess...you could probably really turn things around after just 1 year of gpr.
 
I also think a good GPR or AEGD would be an excellent way to spend a year and gain some confidence.
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I'll be looking for an associate or staff dentist position in a few months.

I'm highly concerned about my prospects. As you can see from the title of my post, I don't have any references. ( actually, I would have some if I push a little harder but I think no references are better than poor references )

The other thing is I'm not that great of a dentist. I'd say I'm above average in doing cleanings and scaling and root planings. I'm average in operative procedures, but probably outstanding in doing Class I restorations. I'm slightly below average in removable/fixed pros. But I'm horrible with extractions and endo, to the extent where I'm not sure how to do them and I'm not comfortable doing them.

I absolutely don't know how to do anything else.

I want to work in a dental chain/mill group or in a city hospital. Am I being realistic? If not, are there any other dental positions that I have prospects for?
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Working in the dental chain mill or hospital to cover your substandard dentistry is doing a DISSERVICE to your patients. You may fare better setting up shops in Mexico border and do that type of dentistry. You really should consider doing a AEGD (NOT GPR) to improve the skill. If you have a will to learn, you will succeed my child... DP
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I'll be looking for an associate or staff dentist position in a few months.

I'm highly concerned about my prospects. As you can see from the title of my post, I don't have any references. ( actually, I would have some if I push a little harder but I think no references are better than poor references )

The other thing is I'm not that great of a dentist. I'd say I'm above average in doing cleanings and scaling and root planings. I'm average in operative procedures, but probably outstanding in doing Class I restorations. I'm slightly below average in removable/fixed pros. But I'm horrible with extractions and endo, to the extent where I'm not sure how to do them and I'm not comfortable doing them.

I absolutely don't know how to do anything else.

I want to work in a dental chain/mill group or in a city hospital. Am I being realistic? If not, are there any other dental positions that I have prospects for?
Click to expand...

If you are serious, AEGD is the way to go. If you are good at diagnosis/Tx planning etc but have no hands, I would suggest trying to hook up with an insurance company to review claims.

I personally believe you can become a competant dentist if you take it seriously and try make each case better than the last. The last thing someone who is having difficulty with the technical aspects of dentistry should do is sign on for "chain/mill" type dentistry. It's impossible to become proficient by speeding up and seeing more patients. Stay away from endo and surgery until you are confident and competant.

Good Luck
 
im calling a troll on this one.
 
Lidopaine82 said:
I don't know. How capable is one going to be fresh out of school?
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so it's acceptable that after 4 years and possibly >$250,000 you don't feel that you have enough training to do an extraction or any endo?? obviously skill comes with time, but if d-schools are this bad at preparing graduates, what are we paying for??
 
which dental school are you graduating from bro?
 
What is the general amount of procedural stuff that is required anyway? eg. 50 fillings, 5 -10 crowns, etc.?
 
258Troll_spray.jpg
 
vaio said:
which dental school are you graduating from bro?
Click to expand...

I decline to state. Let's just say the school isn't very popular on this forum, is hyper-expensive, and has dreary weather half the time. Then again, some of my classmates love it in this area so much that they don't want to go back home.

If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't come here.

But I don't blame the school; I blame myself more. My grades weren't the best but I rank higher than half of my class. As for clinic, I get really derogatory remarks on about half of my procedures. For the most part, I am confident that most of the faculty do not like me and/or do not feel I'm competent enough, which is the reason why I said I won't have any references when job-hunting.

And it's true: I don't know how to do endo, post+core, and extractions. I did a few of them before but I can't really tell if I'm doing it the right way. I also don't know how to check for sore spots and make repairs on dentures, and I don't seem to quite know where I'm going when I'm doing class IIs.

I only know how to do sc/rp, prophy, class Is, class Vs, some crown preps/bridgework, fabrication of RPDs/CDs, and that's it.

Now for my main question, what are my prospects for landing a job in a dental chain or a hospital?
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I decline to state. Let's just say the school isn't very popular on this forum, is hyper-expensive, and has dreary weather half the time. Then again, some of my classmates love it in this area so much that they don't want to go back home.
Click to expand...

Dreary weathy as in cold or dreay weather as in smoggy clouds?
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I decline to state. Let's just say the school isn't very popular on this forum, is hyper-expensive, and has dreary weather half the time. Then again, some of my classmates love it in this area so much that they don't want to go back home.

If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't come here.

But I don't blame the school; I blame myself more. My grades weren't the best but I rank higher than half of my class. As for clinic, I get really derogatory remarks on about half of my procedures. For the most part, I am confident that most of the faculty do not like me and/or do not feel I'm competent enough, which is the reason why I said I won't have any references when job-hunting.

And it's true: I don't know how to do endo, post+core, and extractions. I did a few of them before but I can't really tell if I'm doing it the right way. I also don't know how to check for sore spots and make repairs on dentures, and I don't seem to quite know where I'm going when I'm doing class IIs.

I only know how to do sc/rp, prophy, class Is, class Vs, some crown preps/bridgework, fabrication of RPDs/CDs, and that's it.

Now for my main question, what are my prospects for landing a job in a dental chain or a hospital?
Click to expand...
With your experience and confidence, I think you might fit in great in a chain.
How can your school let you graduate if you don't know how to "do" extractions. If your school is as bad as you say, I'd ask for my money back😀
 
You have no choice...

If your clinical skills are so terrible like you said, then there it probably is safe to say that you won't do so well in any of the regional boards. You should stay (or goto) New York and do any GPR/AEGD and hope for licensure by credentialing. Let's hope you pick up some skills... unless California opens up her PGY1 option... then you can fulfill your lifetime dream of being a dentist in one of the Western Dental chains...
 
Can you communicate? Do you have a personality? Did your patients in school like you, regardless of your incompetence? Get some confidence, or fake it. You can improve on the clinical stuff. If you really have no clue how to do simple extractions/straightforward endo than you are probably SOL. Apply for a GPR. Chain practices will make you miserable, and certainly isn't the answer if what you say is true. Do i smell some sarcasm??????
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I decline to state. Let's just say the school isn't very popular on this forum, is hyper-expensive, and has dreary weather half the time. Then again, some of my classmates love it in this area so much that they don't want to go back home.

If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't come here.

But I don't blame the school; I blame myself more. My grades weren't the best but I rank higher than half of my class. As for clinic, I get really derogatory remarks on about half of my procedures. For the most part, I am confident that most of the faculty do not like me and/or do not feel I'm competent enough, which is the reason why I said I won't have any references when job-hunting.

And it's true: I don't know how to do endo, post+core, and extractions. I did a few of them before but I can't really tell if I'm doing it the right way. I also don't know how to check for sore spots and make repairs on dentures, and I don't seem to quite know where I'm going when I'm doing class IIs.

I only know how to do sc/rp, prophy, class Is, class Vs, some crown preps/bridgework, fabrication of RPDs/CDs, and that's it.

Now for my main question, what are my prospects for landing a job in a dental chain or a hospital?
Click to expand...


Dear Friend,

I suggest to really find the time to hone your skills, practice makes perfect as long as you set your mind to it....Landing a job in a dental chain or hospital is doable after passing the regional clincal exam (but you alerady know that).Franchise clinics (ex. Western Dental) will hire anyone as long as you're licensed, where unfortunately settles for quantity over quality most of the time.
 
armorshell said:
Sock up and start teaching. Schools across the nation are hurting for full-time for professors, and as they always say: If you can't do, teach...
Click to expand...

Ughhh...not another person abusing this quote from a young and misguided George Bernard Shaw (He who can, does....He who cannot, teaches) Do you really want someone like this guy to be teaching...and contributing to the development of more graduates like himself?

BTW, Shaw apologized for including this disparaging remark in his play and casting a disparaging light on the teaching profession.
 
armorshell said:
Sock up and start teaching. Schools across the nation are hurting for full-time for professors, and as they always say: If you can't do, teach...
Click to expand...

There are professors in school that I call them "N.A.T.O" (No Action Talk Only) but they are few. I was an assistant professor at UT Memphis and I consider myself an excellent clinician. I have no respect for talkers so when I was a Course Director in Occlusion/Fixed Pros at UT, I had 5-6 faculty members working with me. I always told my students that I expect my faculty to back up their words with their action. Meaning that if they ask the students to do something that they themselves can't deliver then don't ask! Boy do I miss my "whopp as- teaching days..." DP
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I'll be looking for an associate or staff dentist position in a few months.

I'm highly concerned about my prospects. As you can see from the title of my post, I don't have any references. ( actually, I would have some if I push a little harder but I think no references are better than poor references )

The other thing is I'm not that great of a dentist. I'd say I'm above average in doing cleanings and scaling and root planings. I'm average in operative procedures, but probably outstanding in doing Class I restorations. I'm slightly below average in removable/fixed pros. But I'm horrible with extractions and endo, to the extent where I'm not sure how to do them and I'm not comfortable doing them.

I absolutely don't know how to do anything else.

I want to work in a dental chain/mill group or in a city hospital. Am I being realistic? If not, are there any other dental positions that I have prospects for?
Click to expand...


I am not yet a dentist. But I was wondering if taking more brush up courses either in dental school or at outside symposiums would give you more confidence and ability to make up for your deficits. In other words, defer going into practice now until you have taken "remedial" type of courses if that is even possible. I would think finding an associate who later discovers your deficits will result in you not having a business partner for very long.
 
tooth decay said:
I am not yet a dentist. But I was wondering if taking more brush up courses either in dental school or at outside symposiums would give you more confidence and ability to make up for your deficits. In other words, defer going into practice now until you have taken "remedial" type of courses if that is even possible. I would think finding an associate who later discovers your deficits will result in you not having a business partner for very long.
Click to expand...

I really think the only way to trully compensate for a clinical deficit, is by repitition on LIVE PATIENTS. Taking classes and symposiums will not make you instrument/prepare teeth better. You need to decide whether to enter academics or do a GPR. When you get into practice, whether an associate or chain, during an interview do you plan on disclosing your inadequacies? If so slim chance of being hired. If not, you will be overwhelmed and probably will end up breaking the golden rule, do no harm.
 
OceanDMD said:
I really think the only way to trully compensate for a clinical deficit, is by repitition on LIVE PATIENTS. Taking classes and symposiums will not make you instrument/prepare teeth better. You need to decide whether to enter academics or do a GPR. When you get into practice, whether an associate or chain, during an interview do you plan on disclosing your inadequacies? If so slim chance of being hired. If not, you will be overwhelmed and probably will end up breaking the golden rule, do no harm.
Click to expand...

If an "unskilled" dentist is going to work on live patients in a dental practice, then it should only be in the presence of a competent professional. One should not be "practicing" on patients if one is not prepared to deal with adverse outcomes. I agree with you that a practitioner will get better the more patients they do. However, this assumes that the practitioner knows what they are doing to begin with. If he or she does not, it should be back to school (remedial or graduate, etc) or some other supervised training until he/she does feels confident.
 
tooth decay said:
If an "unskilled" dentist is going to work on live patients in a dental practice, then it should only be in the presence of a competent professional. One should not be "practicing" on patients if one is not prepared to deal with adverse outcomes. I agree with you that a practitioner will get better the more patients they do. However, this assumes that the practitioner knows what they are doing to begin with. If he or she does not, it should be back to school (remedial or graduate, etc) or some other supervised training until he/she does feels confident.
Click to expand...

Mr. expert, what do you think a GPR is ?
 
OceanDMD said:
Mr. expert, what do you think a GPR is ?
Click to expand...

I agree that inorder to gain experience you need to treat live patients. That doesn't require much thought to see. However, you must know what you are doing or else you are performing malpractice on your patients who put their health at your finger tips. Patients are NOT laboratory rats. What OP needs is to enroll in a AEGD program and start to treat patients UNDER SUPERVISION. That means supervision "STEP by STEP", not "finish your crown prep and call me over". I have been through GPR and AEGD I can tell you that some professors let you run amoke while others watch you like a hawk. OP needs to apply to AEGD (not GPR) and discuss his concerns with the faculty. I wish I was there to put OP through dental BOOT CAMP. DP
 
OceanDMD said:
Mr. expert, what do you think a GPR is ?
Click to expand...

Like I said, I am not a dentist or even a dental student (yet). And by the way, I am not Mr. Expert, but Mr. Spock. Thanks.
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
I agree that inorder to gain experience you need to treat live patients. That doesn't require much thought to see. However, you must know what you are doing or else you are performing malpractice on your patients who put their health at your finger tips. Patients are NOT laboratory rats. What OP needs is to enroll in a AEGD program and start to treat patients UNDER SUPERVISION. That means supervision "STEP by STEP", not "finish your crown prep and call me over". I have been through GPR and AEGD I can tell you that some professors let you run amoke while others watch you like a hawk. OP needs to apply to AEGD (not GPR) and discuss his concerns with the faculty. I wish I was there to put OP through dental BOOT CAMP. DP
Click to expand...

You are right, however, I dont think I had that much supervision in dental school. Its not like an instructor can hold your hand while you access a pulp chamber. Mistakes are made or not made regardless of how specific the supervision is. My take on this guy is not that he doesnt necessarily not know the techniques book wise, but that he has not done enough procedures to be comfortable. If a patient chooses to be seen by an AEGD or GPR student, they must know they are seeing an inexperienced dentists, hence more likelihood of mistakes. So actually you could consider them rats🙂 . Just like the patients treated in the school clinics😛
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
I agree that inorder to gain experience you need to treat live patients. That doesn't require much thought to see. However, you must know what you are doing or else you are performing malpractice on your patients who put their health at your finger tips. Patients are NOT laboratory rats. What OP needs is to enroll in a AEGD program and start to treat patients UNDER SUPERVISION. That means supervision "STEP by STEP", not "finish your crown prep and call me over". I have been through GPR and AEGD I can tell you that some professors let you run amoke while others watch you like a hawk. OP needs to apply to AEGD (not GPR) and discuss his concerns with the faculty. I wish I was there to put OP through dental BOOT CAMP. DP
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Why an AEGD but not GPR? And why is it that AEGDs are often 'easier' to get into than GPRs?

And if I'll end up getting lots of supervision thru an AEGD, what exactly is the difference between an AEGD program and dental school?

Also, are there any unfilled spots available RIGHT NOW? If so, which ones do you recommend?
 
armorshell said:
Sock up and start teaching. Schools across the nation are hurting for full-time for professors, and as they always say: If you can't do, teach...
Click to expand...

I see your point but what would I be teaching? What do schools need a full-time professor for?

In my dental school, almost all professors are part-time and are reportedly paid stipends of less than $20,000/yr. I have ~320k in debt, so I can't discount any factors involving annual salary.
 
dentheartthrob said:
Dear Friend,

I suggest to really find the time to hone your skills, practice makes perfect as long as you set your mind to it....Landing a job in a dental chain or hospital is doable after passing the regional clincal exam (but you alerady know that).Franchise clinics (ex. Western Dental) will hire anyone as long as you're licensed, where unfortunately settles for quantity over quality most of the time.
Click to expand...

But I always thought they were competitive. After all, where else would other graduates go?

And would it hurt my prospects a lot if I don't have any references when hunting for these jobs?
 
dr. p says aegd over gpr because if you cant handle simple extraction or single canal endo, god help you in a hospital based program (gpr).

seriously man, get a grip on yourself...if you can self analyze to the point where you are able to admit your faults and shortcomings, take action to fix them. pick up a book, be brutally honest with a prof if you have too, mount teeth in blocks and do the endo in hand. whatever it takes, cause you are in way too much debt to end up selling real estate. (though, if the market picks up, you could always consider...)

you do yourself a disservice to have invested so much money and time, only to discover how much you hate life in ten years cause all you ever learned how to do was crappy dentistry.
 
I have a question for you crackerjack9999.

Do you really think you are unskilled or are you just nervous every time you see a patient? In other words, do you know what you are doing until you have to treat the patient?
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I decline to state. Let's just say the school isn't very popular on this forum, is hyper-expensive, and has dreary weather half the time. Then again, some of my classmates love it in this area so much that they don't want to go back home.

If I had to do it over again, I wouldn't come here.............................. ...............Now for my main question, what are my prospects for landing a job in a dental chain or a hospital?
Click to expand...

I bet the school in question is NYUCD (oops) & you will improve in a good AEGD program as DP pointed out rightly. Research and find out a suitable program.
 
crackerjack9999 said:
I see your point but what would I be teaching? What do schools need a full-time professor for?

In my dental school, almost all professors are part-time and are reportedly paid stipends of less than $20,000/yr. I have ~320k in debt, so I can't discount any factors involving annual salary.
Click to expand...

The guy was being sarcastic. You're not qualified to teach.
 
SquidsLife said:
Ughhh...not another person abusing this quote from a young and misguided George Bernard Shaw (He who can, does....He who cannot, teaches)
Click to expand...

I like Woody Allen's version better:

"Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym."

(From Annie Hall if I remember correctly)
 
crackerjack9999 said:
Hmmm. Why an AEGD but not GPR? And why is it that AEGDs are often 'easier' to get into than GPRs?

And if I'll end up getting lots of supervision thru an AEGD, what exactly is the difference between an AEGD program and dental school?

Also, are there any unfilled spots available RIGHT NOW? If so, which ones do you recommend?
Click to expand...

The reason I suggest AEGD over GPR is this. GPR teaches you to manage medically complex patients (on tons of meds). They will teach you how to render dental treatments on these patients based on what you have to work with. You will learn how dentistry is related to the overall systemic condition of the patient ( pre organ transplant , pre-oral cancer treatment work up, cardilogy clearance and so forth). You will do rotations which I think are worthless (ER, anesthe...). You will learn how to scrub in the OR and treat mentally ******ed patients or ones that can't be handled in the office. So the GPR goal is not to "polish" your operative skill but to teach you how to deal with the medically compromised patients (refer out or treat in office). After I did my GPR, I learned that everytime a patient has a heart mummur, at worst you premedicate the patient and NOT writting a MD consult and wait for weeks for a response. Well, I did not learn much as far as my dentistry skill from my GPR so I did the AEGD the following year.
True story happened in my AEGD program. One of my first patients checked "heart mummur" on his history form and all he needed was a simple Class I occlusal alloy on #20. I went ahead and did the alloy. When the instructor came to check my prep, he FLEW out of the chair and ordered me into his office AT ONCE! He practically threw the chart on the table and said " This patient has a heart mummur and you did a filling on him?" I responded "Sir, for a procedure that does not induce significant bleeding, there is NO need to premedicate and that's why I went ahead with the procedure". He got really pis-ed and said " You should have requested a medical consult !" and he gave me an "F" for patient management. You see, the goal of AEGD is to improve your skill, not to learn how to manage medically compromised patients so that's why I suggested AEGD. DP
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
The reason I suggest AEGD over GPR is this. GPR teaches you to manage medically complex patients (on tons of meds). They will teach you how to render dental treatments on these patients based on what you have to work with. You will learn how dentistry is related to the overall systemic condition of the patient ( pre organ transplant , pre-oral cancer treatment work up, cardilogy clearance and so forth). You will do rotations which I think are worthless (ER, anesthe...). You will learn how to scrub in the OR and treat mentally ******ed patients or ones that can't be handled in the office. So the GPR goal is not to "polish" your operative skill but to teach you how to deal with the medically compromised patients (refer out or treat in office). After I did my GPR, I learned that everytime a patient has a heart mummur, at worst you premedicate the patient and NOT writting a MD consult and wait for weeks for a response. Well, I did not learn much as far as my dentistry skill from my GPR so I did the AEGD the following year.
True story happened in my AEGD program. One of my first patients checked "heart mummur" on his history form and all he needed was a simple Class I occlusal alloy on #20. I went ahead and did the alloy. When the instructor came to check my prep, he FLEW out of the chair and ordered me into his office AT ONCE! He practically threw the chart on the table and said " This patient has a heart mummur and you did a filling on him?" I responded "Sir, for a procedure that does not induce significant bleeding, there is NO need to premedicate and that's why I went ahead with the procedure". He got really pis-ed and said " You should have requested a medical consult !" and he gave me an "F" for patient management. You see, the goal of AEGD is to improve your skill, not to learn how to manage medically compromised patients so that's why I suggested AEGD. DP
Click to expand...

You got graded? I guess it's true when they say a GPR/AEGD is just a 5th year of dental school.
 
Some AEGD programs are like a 5th year of dental school... some aren't! (The GPR at my school got shut down because it lost its funding...) One of the reasons that the AEGD program survived was that it made enough profit to share amongst 20 or so residents. That was good!

My experience with AEGD program was more like private practice setting. Everyday we had different GPs coming in and they let us do practically everything - except ortho! Yep, a few full mouth reconstructions, implants, perio surgeries... then I decided I wanted to do ortho afterwards!
 
toofache32 said:
You got graded? I guess it's true when they say a GPR/AEGD is just a 5th year of dental school.
Click to expand...

The AEGD at UMKC (the school I graduated from) is like a faculty practice. Very professional like a well run private practice. The AEGD at University of Minnesota (back in 1996) was like a second year dental school clinic. You were treated like a kid with assistants telling you what burs to do and so forth. It was like a remediation class where the instructors were down in their last drop of patience. DP
 
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