UPenn or WashU

[John Lysander]

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Hi,

I am down to UPenn or WashU MSTP at this stage. I like both programs and trying to decide. My concern is not the research lab as I can find good labs at both schools in which to work. However, I am trying to compare the medical and grad school curriculum. I don't like the grading scale at Penn for med classes as I would like to focus most of my time in research. WashU is better in this regards as it is simply pass/fail. On the other hand, Penn med curriculum is only a 1.5 years, which appeals to me (By the way, does it really MATTER for MSTP training that med school is shortened like this in terms of average time to graduate?) Moreover, from my interviews, I perceive that the training curriculum is somewhat more rigid at Penn than at WashU. Is this really true? I guess I am rambling but if anyone could offer his or her insight, I'd appreciate it. Also, which school has a shorter graduation time?

Thanks.

JL

 

[Neuronix]

I don't like the grading scale at Penn for med classes as I would like to focus most of my time in research.

You won't have a great deal of time to do research while in medical school, especially at Penn where so much stuff is required. You have to ask yourself though, will you really do alot of research with all the demands of med school? Not many do. Though I agree, the grading scale is very lame, and the H/P/F thing really changes the class dynamic and competitiveness. Every year we try to get it taken away, and every year the administration says no.

On the other hand, Penn med curriculum is only a 1.5 years, which appeals to me (By the way, does it really MATTER for MSTP training that med school is shortened like this in terms of average time to graduate?)

As far as I know, the average graduation times at Penn and WashU are pretty much identical. So that 1/2 year shaved off of basic science is going into something else (likely grad school).

Moreover, from my interviews, I perceive that the training curriculum is somewhat more rigid at Penn than at WashU. Is this really true?

I'm not sure how to compare UPenn to WashU in this regard, as I've never been to WashU. I will say that the med school is too rigid and 2-7 hours per day will be required during basic science. You do not get a great deal of free time, the times you get assigned to things are seemingly random, and the administration doesn't really care if you have other things going on or negative feedback.

As for graduate school, it totally depends on the graduate group here as to how rigid they are and how many demands they place on you. Certain grad groups are notorious for lots of requirements and holding their students longer, and some other grad groups are not as bad.

Good luck deciding, if you have any specific questions feel free to ask or PM me.

 

[ImmunoANT]

I'm not sure how to compare UPenn to WashU in this regard, as I've never been to WashU. I will say that the med school is too rigid and 2-7 hours per day will be required during basic science. You do not get a great deal of free time, the times you get assigned to things are seemingly random, and the administration doesn't really care if you have other things going on or negative feedback.

As for graduate school, it totally depends on the graduate group here as to how rigid they are and how many demands they place on you. Certain grad groups are notorious for lots of requirements and holding their students longer, and some other grad groups are not as bad.

Actually, Module 1 isn't that bad, 2-3 hrs of lecture + 2 hrs of lab everyday, and 1 or 2 afternoons for doctor-patient group. Now it's getting a little bit ridiculous: sometimes 4 hrs of lecture + 2 hrs of discussion + 3 hrs of doctor-patient/health care discussion 😱 both physically and emotionally draining. 👎 but compared to other more traditional schools, I think we are lucky.

About grad groups, pick immunology, hah.

 

[Neuronix]

Actually, Module 1 isn't that bad, 2-3 hrs of lecture + 2 hrs of lab everyday, and 1 or 2 afternoons for doctor-patient group.

That's true. The first six months aren't bad, you could spend a decent amount of time in the lab during that time. The next year there's so much USELESS stuff that you're required to do that it becomes alot more difficult. The MD/PhD program is yet to respond to all the new requirements on the med students.

 

[John Lysander]

Actually, Module 1 isn't that bad, 2-3 hrs of lecture + 2 hrs of lab everyday, and 1 or 2 afternoons for doctor-patient group. Now it's getting a little bit ridiculous: sometimes 4 hrs of lecture + 2 hrs of discussion + 3 hrs of doctor-patient/health care discussion 😱 both physically and emotionally draining. 👎 but compared to other more traditional schools, I think we are lucky.

About grad groups, pick immunology, hah.

I am just wondering about the grading at Penn. I know that the first semester is pass/ fail. How are the last 2 semesters graded? And in terms of residency, is getting honors, for example, as important for an MSTP student as it is for a regular med student? Also, I heard that since an MSTP student can join any lab, does it make sense to join the grad group with the least class requirement or picking a graduate group within CAMB really matters? In addition, how about the possibility of skipping out of classes if one took similar classes at the med school of one's undergraduate? My last question concerns the safety of Philly - what are your perspectives on this? Thanks very much Neuronix and ImmunoAnt.

 

[javert]

I'll be attending Penn this fall, so neuronix and immunoant are obviously better qualified to answer your questions, but I'll take a stab at a couple of them.

I seem to recall the grading for the last two semester being H/HP/P/F. What I heard from current students at various schools that had either H/P/F or H/HP/P/F grading systems is that the grades really don't matter that much for MSTPs applying to residency. Everyone I talked to always said that it was nowhere near as important for MSTPs as it is for regular meds. Some students (especially at Hopkins) tried to convince me that going to a school that has grading puts you at an advantage when applying for residency over a school that has simpily P/F, but I've never bought that argument. So, I definately agree with you that a downside to Penn is the grading, but it seems as if it won't matter that much in the long run.

I'm not even going to pretend that I can address your grad group question, but I can answer the required class question...at least for neuroscience. I asked the neuroscience chair about this since I'm a neuro undergrad major and have taken several grad courses. He said that they are pretty flexible in allowing you to skip a required class if you think you have the background for it, but they would generally require you to take something else (generally another course) in its place. Also, if you don't think that one of the required courses is a good fit for your research track, you can ask to take another course in its place. Obviously, this is all just for the Neuroscience department, and I'm sure it varies widely from dept to dept.

See you at Penn Preview and best of luck with your decision...both are definately great programs.

 

[Neuronix]

How are the last 2 semesters graded?

Module 2 (the year after the first 6 months of basic science) is graded H/P/F. My guess is that these grades don't matter at all, unless you get Junior-AOA (top 15% of basic science people), which matters a little bit. The clinical years are H/HP/P/F.

And in terms of residency, is getting honors, for example, as important for an MSTP student as it is for a regular med student?

Not really. We have students in the MSTP who were fairly mediocre as medical students matching into the most competitive specialties. Not matching at all is unheard of, and the vast majority of MSTPs get their top choice. Couple this with the fact that MSTPs tend to be more laid back in medical school than their MD counterparts.

Also, I heard that since an MSTP student can join any lab, does it make sense to join the grad group with the least class requirement or picking a graduate group within CAMB really matters? In addition, how about the possibility of skipping out of classes if one took similar classes at the med school of one's undergraduate?

CAMB is a graduate group. I don't understand your question about picking a graduate group within CAMB. Most students pick a graduate group within BGS, but that's mostly because they fit most of the accepted students interests. As for picking a lab based on grad group, it's usually not an issue. You can join an engineering lab as a neuro student for example, if it fits in with doing neuro work. As for skipping out of classes, it's very grad group dependent and I don't really know the details. The rumors I hear are that the neurosci group is pretty inflexible in general, that it is the only group that requires teaching (6 months, probably ugrad labs), and I haven't seen anyone graduating with a neuroscience PhD lately in under 8 years. The opinion of my friends in neuroscience is that you should consider it a 8-9 year program. This is in contrast to my friends in BMB or BE who consider it a 7-8 year program. Obviously there are exceptions, and what I'm saying is hearsay, but it's probably going to be the same hearsay you hear from the other students when you get here.

My last question concerns the safety of Philly - what are your perspectives on this? Thanks very much Neuronix and ImmunoAnt.

Philly is as safe as any other city. As for crime statistics, it typically scores in the middle in most measures for most articles I've read. Things do occasionally happen to students here, but nothing has happened personally to me or my friends so far. My upstairs neighbor's apartment was burglarized 3 weeks ago and my car was vandalized on the street last year. By comparison, St. Louis scored the worst rating for a moderately sized city by an article I saw last year. But, do your own research on this to find indicators of crime and make up your own mind.

 

[Newquagmire]

St. Louis scored the worst rating for a moderately sized city by an article I saw last year.

But WU SOM is located in one of the nicest mid-town districts. As with any city, street smarts are what will help protect you most.

 

[John Lysander]

Hi,

Thanks for your input (Neuronix and Javert). What about buying a condo in Philly? When is a good time to buy it and how does one go about taking care of the downpayment? Is the subsidized loan that Neuronix mentioned has any effect on getting the loan for the downpayment? Do you have any suggestions on summer rotation before the first year? Where would be a good place to live for the summer if one intends to buy a place as soon as possible?

Thanks.

 

[John Lysander]

Neuronix: With regard to my comment about the grad group within CAMB, what I mean is that within CAMB, there are different graduate groups. I am interested in Cell Growth and Cancer. My question is whether another graduate group within CAMB (for example Developmental Biology) has different class requirement from my intended graduate group?

Thanks.

 

[John Lysander]

Module 2 (the year after the first 6 months of basic science) is graded H/P/F. My guess is that these grades don't matter at all, unless you get Junior-AOA (top 15% of basic science people), which matters a little bit. The clinical years are H/HP/P/F.

Neuronix: What is Junior-AOA?

 

[John Lysander]

But WU SOM is located in one of the nicest mid-town districts. As with any city, street smarts are what will help protect you most.

Newquagmire: what is the safest area in Philly? Thanks.

 

[alhkim]

Newquagmire: what is the safest area in Philly? Thanks.

I would say the Fairmont (Art Museum) district is the safest area near Penn. It's about 2 miles away from campus...I have lived in Center City, Fairmont, West Philly, and the East Falls sections of Philly and combining safety with proximity to the Penn campus, Fairmont is the safest with Center City a close second. East Falls, which is about 7-8 miles north of Penn, is very safe, but absolutely requires a car to get to Penn within 30-45 minutes (which is how long it takes by public transit). To be completely truthful, I don't think West Philly near Penn isn't terrible--just like what others have said, street smarts carries you a long way whereever you may be.

 

[Neuronix]

Newquagmire: what is the safest area in Philly? Thanks.

Safest? Prolly Center City. I would disagree with the last poster who said to live in the Art Museum District. There's a bunch of reasons why >50% of the students (probably more like >75%) live in Center City.

What is Junior AOA? It's a little honor you get for being in the top 15% in modules 1 and 2. Regular AOA you get for being in the top 15% of the class after third year. It's sort of prestigious, and all the gunners are after it.

As for developmental bio, it has its own course recs, but it's still within CAMB grad group. It's an option within CAMB. Grad school is somewhat customized to your interests. There's always a core set of classes you have to take for your grad group, and a set you take depending on your interests.

Edit: In response to the post after this one, commuting in from the burbs would be a huge hassle as a student. The train schedules are irregular, and in some locations don't exist at non-peak or odd hours. Further, Penn isn't real close to 30th street station, so you'd have to connect to trolleys or walk a good 10 blocks to the med school. I don't think it's a great option, and very few of our students live outside the city.

 

[bottles999]

Newquagmire: what is the safest area in Philly? Thanks.

Since your asking about Philly in general, I grew up in the area and honestly never really didnt feel safe in that town. Of course, that might be a tad jaded considering I am living in Detroit at the moment.

There are some great suburbs 20 - 30 min away if your willing to communite and public transportation isnt that bad at all. Radnor, Wayne, King of prussia areas are all nice. I wouldnt venture too far from a train station or right near campus, assuming you dont have a car. There are others and take a look a map of the rail lines there to see some of the areas.

I do have to agree about the street smarts comment above and not to mention a little common sense.

Congrats and good luck on your decision!

 

[PostalWookie]

I spent the last 4 years in Morningside/Washington heights in NYC, and I have to say that philly isn't all that bad. When I was there, I ended up walking from chinatown to UPenn just to see the city, and although ti was no upper east side, you probably won't get shot/mugged as long as you use common sense. If you don't have that, you won't be safe anywhere.

Now Baltimore, that's a ****hole.

 

[John Lysander]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your input. I am coming to Penn now. I hope to see everyone there, if not in person, then in spirit. Take good care.

JL

 

[Neuronix]

Thanks for your input. I am coming to Penn now. I hope to see everyone there, if not in person, then in spirit. Take good care.

Welcome to the club 👍 I'm sorry I couldn't answer your earlier post about buying a condo. It's always been out of my price range, and you really need parent money for the down payment.

 

[ImmunoANT]

Welcome to the club 👍 I'm sorry I couldn't answer your earlier post about buying a condo. It's always been out of my price range, and you really need parent money for the down payment.

hm... depends on where the condo is. center city, yes, you definitely need $ from dad and mon. west philly, maybe - didn't someone from your class get a condo in west philly for <80K? and it's in a nice area too.

and John, welcome! 😀

 

[Newquagmire]

Newquagmire: what is the safest area in Philly? Thanks.

You're asking the wrong person, buddy. The first two and only times I've ever been to Philly are for Penn affairs. In any case, it seems like my response is irrelevant as you have already decided and you have gotten advice from people in the know. Congrats!

 

[the_one_smiley]

Thanks for the insight provided in this thread. I am in the exact same situation (choosing between WashU and UPenn MSTP), and have a specific question about WashU: How much interaction is there between the medical students and the rest of the university?

One of the reasons I like being a student is the opportunity to be around all sorts of intelligent people, whether they are physics graduate students, law school faculty, compsci department heads, or undergrads. The physical locations of a school's facilities definitely has an effect on whether this is actually possible. I know at UPenn, everything is together on one campus, which fosters mingling between the members of its various schools. At WashU, the medical center isn't completely isolated from the rest of the school at Hilltop (compared to, say, Cornell), but you do have to cross Forest Park to get from one to the other. Can anyone from WashU MSTP tell me if the sort of collegial bond I'm looking for exists there?

 

[jjmack]

I'm not a wash u MSTP but i went there undergrad so I can talk about it a little from that perspective. The medical school is about a 15min shuttle ride away so it is fairly isolated. There aren't many if any academic reasons to go to the main campus. good luck with the choice and congrats.

Thanks for the insight provided in this thread. I am in the exact same situation (choosing between WashU and UPenn MSTP), and have a specific question about WashU: How much interaction is there between the medical students and the rest of the university?

One of the reasons I like being a student is the opportunity to be around all sorts of intelligent people, whether they are physics graduate students, law school faculty, compsci department heads, or undergrads. The physical locations of a school's facilities definitely has an effect on whether this is actually possible. I know at UPenn, everything is together on one campus, which fosters mingling between the members of its various schools. At WashU, the medical center isn't completely isolated from the rest of the school at Hilltop (compared to, say, Cornell), but you do have to cross Forest Park to get from one to the other. Can anyone from WashU MSTP tell me if the sort of collegial bond I'm looking for exists there?

 

[Newquagmire]

I'm not a wash u MSTP but i went there undergrad so I can talk about it a little from that perspective. The medical school is about a 15min shuttle ride away so it is fairly isolated. There aren't many if any academic reasons to go to the main campus. good luck with the choice and congrats.

i would mostly agree with that assessment (also not at washu).

 

[John Lysander]

Thanks for the insight provided in this thread. I am in the exact same situation (choosing between WashU and UPenn MSTP), and have a specific question about WashU: How much interaction is there between the medical students and the rest of the university?

One of the reasons I like being a student is the opportunity to be around all sorts of intelligent people, whether they are physics graduate students, law school faculty, compsci department heads, or undergrads. The physical locations of a school's facilities definitely has an effect on whether this is actually possible. I know at UPenn, everything is together on one campus, which fosters mingling between the members of its various schools. At WashU, the medical center isn't completely isolated from the rest of the school at Hilltop (compared to, say, Cornell), but you do have to cross Forest Park to get from one to the other. Can anyone from WashU MSTP tell me if the sort of collegial bond I'm looking for exists there?

The_one_smiley,

One of the reasons I prefer Penn is as you mentioned, the proximity of the various graduate schools and the undergrad campus. While at WashU revisit, I asked the current MSTP students about their interactions with law or business students. They said that although there are various events to bring students together, they often go in groups and thus end up hanging among themselves rather than with other departments. Nonetheless, it probably depends on the individual as some of the MSTP students told me that they know quite a few med/ MSTP students ended up getting married to law students. In sum, I think whether one's exposure to other types of people depends on one's initiatives, but I believe that the physical proximity at Penn, compared to that of WashU, definitely possibilitates the coming the together of various groups.

Best of luck with all your decisions.

JL

 

[the_one_smiley]

There aren't many if any academic reasons to go to the main campus. good luck with the choice and congrats.

What about graduate school classes? If you take a course in the physics department (say, quantum mechanics for Molecular Biophysics or something) wouldn't that be on the main campus?

I kind of wish I could go to the revisit weekends for these schools. Instead, I'm stuck here in Australia scuba diving in the Great Barrier Reef. Pity =)

 

[jjmack]

Then you would, but graduate school class work is a very small part of the MSTP process. Also BTW the physics isn't very good at wash u 🙁 That diving sounds painful hehe

What about graduate school classes? If you take a course in the physics department (say, quantum mechanics for Molecular Biophysics or something) wouldn't that be on the main campus?

I kind of wish I could go to the revisit weekends for these schools. Instead, I'm stuck here in Australia scuba diving in the Great Barrier Reef. Pity =)

 

[Newquagmire]

I kind of wish I could go to the revisit weekends for these schools. Instead, I'm stuck here in Australia scuba diving in the Great Barrier Reef. Pity =)

I'm jealous. You know, if you really wanted to, you probably could go to the revisits (I suppose it's a little late now) on the schools' funds.

 

[John Lysander]

Instead, I'm stuck here in Australia scuba diving in the Great Barrier Reef. Pity =)

During the WashU revisit, I have heard that WashU actually flew people all the way from Europe or England for free. WashU is undoubtedly the most generous university in the whole universe, so if you ask, I am sure they will accomodate you. Man, I love WashU!