UPenn vs. Buffalo

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if you're a NY resident you'd be crazy not to go to Buffalo.
 
I shadowed a dentist that graduated from Penn 6 or so years ago, and he is still kicking himself because he didn't get into Buffalo (mostly because of his student loans). Don't worry about it being a state school. I have friends that attend UB and love it, plus I'm at Stony Brook and I'm very happy with the program so far.

If you like sending bigger loan repayment checks, go to Penn.
 
sonofapizzaman said:
I shadowed a dentist that graduated from Penn 6 or so years ago, and he is still kicking himself because he didn't get into Buffalo (mostly because of his student loans). Don't worry about it being a state school. I have friends that attend UB and love it, plus I'm at Stony Brook and I'm very happy with the program so far.

If you like sending bigger loan repayment checks, go to Penn.
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And as a graduate of Buffalo from 6 years ago, my checkbook and I are very happy that I turned down Penn.
 
Based on cost alone, I'd have to say Buffalo. Then there is the matter of severe structural problems at Penn. (I graduated from Penn some time ago and have frequent contact with some of the faculty.)

Let me say first that many of the faculty at Penn remain excellent, and the basic science education received there is also excellent. Unbelievably so. One key to dentistry is understanding the biological basis of disease, and Penn will equip you supremely well for this.

There are numerous challenges currently at Penn however; allow me to describe the most severe in my view and you can then evaluate Buffalo on these same issues and compare.

The sound bite: Penn sends out Alumni magazines with cover stories like the recent "Global Engagement!" and yet they make no effort that I can see to teach the students anything about managing people; the clinical years are all about technique and points to graduate and all that; yet in the end we treat people, not teeth. Penn graduates are grossly underprepared in this vital aspect of practicing dentistry. (Possibly the same is true for other schools as well, however. They all need to be evaluated through this lens.)

Penn also does not teach rotary endo to undergrad students. This is a strong view I know, but here goes: they are comitting institutional malpractice on this point. They are teaching students a stainless steel technique which is vastly inferior technically, because it transports canals and causes many other problems, and also because the students are graduating about a decade behind in their technical knowledge of endodontics. Besides the fact that they will have to take costly CE immediately upon graduation to catch up, their patients will be treated by them below the standard of care until they do. I'm not quite as well versed on how the other specialties are taught but this one glaring issue should be a dealbreaker.

And then we get to the real problem...

All dental schools need to ensure that students graduate with a well-rounded clinical experience. So dental students have to do a certain number of many different procedures in order to graduate. This is only reasonable. The thing is, at Penn, and for all I know at other dental schools as well, they have made this system a "corporatized, anonymized", and very complex thing that is all about "points" required to graduate and not centered on the human beings who are their patients. So students look for procedures to do rather than seek to understand their patients fully. Students end up trading procedures, which in essence means trading human beings back and forth. Rather like cattle, if you've ever seen the process. Another sign of this systemic problem is that, every time I've been to my alma mater to visit, students universally refer to their patients by procedure, not name. For instance, "my crown", "my endo", etc.

Mind you, this is not specifically the students' "fault". They are starting out with the best intentions and their institutions are molding them in this way, in subtle but continuous, relentless, implacable ways. (Thank heavens for residencies, which do a wonderful job of reversing much of these effects. Only so many graduates attend residencies, though.)

It just so happens that this is perhaps the worst time in recent human history for this kind of anonymous, corporate, interchangeable thinking. People are facing HIGH levels of Uncertainty. Yet they also have new-found choice and power as consumers, through the power of the Internet to connect people who want to be connected, and to share information with each other, especially about experiences with businesses. (Those of us in practice have certainly all seen reviews of us online...) And- people are looking for meaningful human interaction, for businesses that set out to make a difference. When they seek care from any medical practitioner, they are seeking Certainty and Connection. They've collectively had enough of Interchangeabililty, of being treated like a number. Not everyone realizes this on a conscious level yet, of course, but the movement is building.

So, my contention is, if Penn and other dental schools train their students, in subtle ways, to look at patients in terms of the Corporate Interchangeable Model and to think in terms of "what procedures can I get out of this person", then it will be difficult for the student to instantly change this approach upon graduation. "Points" morphs into money and the whole thing ends up backwards. I've seen frequent evidence that some practitioners' entire philosophy of practice is oriented to the goal of extracting the maximum amount of money from each patient that they can. This business model can still bring short-term gains, but it is rapidly becoming unsustainable as consumers increasingly turn to what my friend Anne McCrossan has termed "socially fit businesses".

If I ran a dental school- gawd, no one would EVER let me, the things I'd destroy would be too numerous to mention- but the one thing I'd get right is that I'd teach the students, on a repetitive weekly basis, to understand the role that they have to play in society, and to trust in engaging and treating human beings as human beings and that the procedures will then take care of themselves.
 
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Thanks for all your feedback, I really appreciate it. What are your thoughts on Columbia vs Buffalo (as an NY resident)?
Thanks
 
depends. what is the tuition at Buffalo?

i like it here at columbia, but it's god awful expensive (not really a complaint, just kind of a downside).
 
flapaTron said:
depends. what is the tuition at Buffalo?

i like it here at columbia, but it's god awful expensive (not really a complaint, just kind of a downside).
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Buffalo tuition is about $20,000
Total cost of attendance with room and board is about $40,000 for NY resident.
 
ToothBlaster said:
Buffalo tuition is about $20,000
Total cost of attendance with room and board is about $40,000 for NY resident.
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HAH! That's redunkulusly cheap. I'm not even going to tell you my tuition. Go to Buffalo.

Don't get me wrong. it's awesome here, and Columbia definitely offers a unique experience, but whether or not it's worth the price difference is totally up to you.
 
I have heard that Columbia is amazing for specializing... if I want to be an oral surgeon is it the place to go
I also hear Columbia has extremely difficult didactics... is this the case?
 
all dental schools will be hard didactically, though i will say that the first 2 years here are rough given the nature of the cirriculum (lots o' med school + dental preclinic).

you can specialize from any school you go to with arguably the same chance as you'd have anywhere else. it's not like residency programs have spots reserved just for columbia grads - it's just that they tend to promote (somewhat heavily) post-doc education and summarily attract those who think they want to specialize. we are mentored very well here and have tons of opportunities for research, externing, rotations, etc. you can view columbia's post-grad placement stats here:

http://dental.columbia.edu/education/post_doc_place.html

notice though that the numbers might seem "inflated" because GPR + AEGD are included in the ~95% specialization rate ..... many would not call this "specializing", but either way just go to school where you think you'd be happy.
 
DentinBond said:
Penn also does not teach rotary endo to undergrad students.
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I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, but this particular point is changing. I'm a second year, and we are getting some rotary endo training now (although it was acknowledged we are/were one the last schools to not teach rotary)

...let's not talk about the state of the preclinical lab though :laugh:
 
Thank you Flipper405 for telling me some good news from my alma mater- it's about time they changed something...

What is perplexing is that I met the new Dean- I arrange the lectures for a study group and when he spoke I sat with him and also with the beyond-brilliant Morton Amsterdam (hope you know who he is), and we have a superb leader at the top of the administration now. With regard to my main concerns, it might be that we're talking about two completely different maps here. Meaning- I and some other grads see things with one mental map, and dental school administrations see things with a different map, and they just don't overlap at all. I'm struggling to understand what's going on.

Anyway Flipper405, since you agree that my concerns are real, I offer to give you any assistance that I possibly can in order to prepare you better for what a dental practice can be in terms of business and patient management. In terms of a socially fit business model... So if interested, message me privately here and I'll help you counteract the corporatization that you're being taught in subtle but implacable ways. (Although I'd prefer that all our real information was displayed, not psuedonyms... transparency is so superior. But that's not the way this site functions.)

I mean it. I believe in this very strongly and I will step up and help you.
 
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UPenn was one of the least impressive schools I interviewed at

*Initial Impression*
-Beautiful campus, but NO ONE knew where the dental school was (one didn't even know they had one!).
-Admissions staff openly boasted that they never fill the entire class on Dec. 1; I wondered why.

*Tour*
Tour guide was nice, the building wasn't. Other applicant remarked that it seemed like Grand Central Station--and I agree. Sim clinic seemed like technology-overload with annoying posture sensors. Tuition was a joke, perhaps even with the dean-scholarship.

*Interviews*
-At the start of one of my interviews, a woman entered the room and asked if she could sit quietly at the far end of the table. I said sure, but the interviewer snapped at her that she couldn't; it was nice to see how accomodating the professors are toward one another (and potentially to me some day).
-2nd interviewer was like 20 minutes late, and not because of an emergency. I understand people get caught up, but it was a little disrespectful.

Ultimately, it was a school that everyone walked away from knowing they'd probably never be back.
 
You're a new member with two new posts and both are bashing two schools in them... why is that?
Are you on the wait list for these schools and trying to get in? What is your deal?
 
oh, perhaps I was too critical (you'd be too when you're from Texas and your state schools only want's $1.99 for tuition).

If I really wanted to throw you off, I'd say that Penn was extremely affordable and modern, and the students were gleamingly happy.
 
DMD2015 said:
UPenn was one of the least impressive schools I interviewed at

*Initial Impression*
-Beautiful campus, but NO ONE knew where the dental school was (one didn't even know they had one!).
-Admissions staff openly boasted that they never fill the entire class on Dec. 1; I wondered why.

*Tour*
Tour guide was nice, the building wasn't. Other applicant remarked that it seemed like Grand Central Station--and I agree. Sim clinic seemed like technology-overload with annoying posture sensors. Tuition was a joke, perhaps even with the dean-scholarship.

Ultimately, it was a school that everyone walked away from knowing they'd probably never be back.
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I'm at Penn Dental and it's been a fun experience. I was actually deciding between Penn and Buffalo, and I ultimately chose Penn because I wanted to get away from the snow (I lived in a region where I was sick of dealing with the hazards of snow) and I also wanted to go somewhere different (I stayed close to home for undergrad, and Buffalo is very close.)

Now you have a bit of background. I would suggest Buffalo solely based on cost, because it sounds like the complaints at most schools are very similar. Anyways, I wanted to remark on a few things this poster ^ said.

Why is it important that the other people at Penn know where the dental school is? I know a lot of Penn undergrads and they all seemed to know where our building is. Plus it is nice that the school is on the same campus as the rest of the school (unlike Buffalo).

The school doesn't seem like Grand Central Station, unless you're referring to all the patients walking around in the atrium/entrance, in which case lots of patients are a GOOD thing!!

Annoying posture sensors? Posture is vital with dentistry!! You'd have a backache every day if they never taught you the ergonomics of how to practice dentistry. And I'm sorry, but too much technology? Technology = advances.

And that last statement I bolded is pretty ridiculous. A lot of us know people from our interview days that chose Penn. Yes it's expensive, but people in the field know that Penn is a good school.

To the OP: you need to go with your gut on this decision. No one can make it for you, but I thought I'd clear up some things that have been commented on here that I disagree with.
 
Without knowing anything about the schools except tuition... go to Buffalo. You will get the same degree you get at Penn, and you will, most likely, have fun anyway.

I feel like people think that students up at Buffalo are frozen eskimos who do nothing but study in their igloos all day?? Seriously, are you going to have $300,000 more fun in a slightly warmer city, or do you think you can find things to do with that money once you graduate?

Let's make this more concrete.

Saving 40,000$ a year:
First year: make a payment on a tiny house in Buffalo. Use the remaining cash to throw yourself a 1,000$ party every month. Bank or invest what remains.
Second year: Buy a nicer car. Use the remaining cash to throw yourself a 1,000$ party every month. Bank or invest what remains.
Third year: Make another payment on another house. Rent it out. Bank or invest what remains, along with the rent money from your tenant.
Fourth year: stick 40,000$ into your savings. Start finding a tenant for the house you're moving out of.

Graduation hits. Congratulations: you have your DDS degree, two tiny houses, a very nice car, something like 50,000 in the bank, and 24,000$ in parties, compared to the guy down the street from Penn/NYU/Boston, who is starting with -360,000$ in the bank.

Alternatively:
First year: spend 80,000 on tuition. 15,000 on living costs.
Second year: Looks like first year.
Third year: Looks like second year.
Fourth year: Looks like third year, except thank god, you can finally find a job somewhere OUT OF THE CITY, and start paying down that 360,000.

If I had gotten into Buffalo, it would have been an absolute no-brainer over NYU. I still honestly don't know how people make the decision to go to the more expensive school.

Edit: if you put 40,000$ into the bank in your fourth year, you'd have more than 40,000$, not 30,000$ XD typo!
 
newyorkblork said:
Without knowing anything about the schools except tuition... go to Buffalo. You will get the same degree you get at Penn, and you will, most likely, have fun anyway.

I feel like people think that students up at Buffalo are frozen eskimos who do nothing but study in their igloos all day?? Seriously, are you going to have $300,000 more fun in a slightly warmer city, or do you think you can find things to do with that money once you graduate?

Let's make this more concrete.

Saving 40,000$ a year:
First year: make a payment on a tiny house in Buffalo. Use the remaining cash to throw yourself a 1,000$ party every month. Bank or invest what remains.
Second year: Buy a nicer car. Use the remaining cash to throw yourself a 1,000$ party every month. Bank or invest what remains.
Third year: Make another payment on another house. Rent it out. Bank or invest what remains, along with the rent money from your tenant.
Fourth year: stick 40,000$ into your savings. Start finding a tenant for the house you're moving out of.

Graduation hits. Congratulations: you have your DDS degree, two tiny houses, a very nice car, something like 50,000 in the bank, and 24,000$ in parties, compared to the guy down the street from Penn/NYU/Boston, who is starting with -360,000$ in the bank.

Alternatively:
First year: spend 80,000 on tuition. 15,000 on living costs.
Second year: Looks like first year.
Third year: Looks like second year.
Fourth year: Looks like third year, except thank god, you can finally find a job somewhere OUT OF THE CITY, and start paying down that 360,000.

If I had gotten into Buffalo, it would have been an absolute no-brainer over NYU. I still honestly don't know how people make the decision to go to the more expensive school.

Edit: if you put 40,000$ into the bank in your fourth year, you'd have more than 40,000$, not 30,000$ XD typo!
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How does the average student even get the money to buy two small houses? Can't be from student loans.
 
ya man, while u do have the income from your student loans to make all that happen, the banks wont give that mortgage without a cosigner no matter how good your credit is, or that youre a previous homeowner. they just care that you dont have an income from a job.
 
wait, you can buy a house in buffalo for under $40,000?? how
please elaborate....
 
My bad guys, I was joking.

Just saying if you choose the more expensive school "for the location", think about what you are trading.
 
Insights on Columbia vs Buffalo? Any feedback is appreciated please
 
Save the money. Nothing else matters. You can specialize when graduating from any dental school.
 
Buffalo will most likely get 25 international students during 3rd year. As a result, you wont get your own chair, AND faculty and patients will be more thinly spread. In addition, there will be competition with the international students, since they are practicing dentists and american students will be ranked lower than them in clinics.... it will be much harder to specialize too....
are you better off going to Upenn or Columbia now that Buffalo is changing for the worse?
 
ToothBlaster said:
Buffalo will most likely get 25 international students during 3rd year. As a result, you wont get your own chair, AND faculty and patients will be more thinly spread. In addition, there will be competition with the international students, since they are practicing dentists and american students will be ranked lower than them in clinics.... it will be much harder to specialize too....
are you better off going to Upenn or Columbia now that Buffalo is changing for the worse?
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Where did you find this information on the international students and as a result decreased chair accessibility? I have looked on their website with no mention and only a handful of threads on SDN even mention this, what gives?
 
ToothBlaster said:
Buffalo will most likely get 25 international students during 3rd year. As a result, you wont get your own chair, AND faculty and patients will be more thinly spread. In addition, there will be competition with the international students, since they are practicing dentists and american students will be ranked lower than them in clinics.... it will be much harder to specialize too....
are you better off going to Upenn or Columbia now that Buffalo is changing for the worse?
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I agree with the person above me...this was mentioned only briefly here on SDN...also don't jump to conclusions. I am sure if Buffalo adds 50 international students that their faculty would be adjusted (i.e. more full time or more hired faculty). Also, if the international program is anything like other schools, these students will NOT be part of your grading curve...so why are you jumping to the conclusion that you will be ranked less? That would just NOT make sense to rank internationals in the same system as 4year DDS/DMD seekers (There would be a huge uproar about this from Buffalo students if this ever happened). Also, how would it be harder to specialize? Specializing depends on the individual not a group?

Gosh I don't see why you freak out so much! 🙂. If anything call Buffalo about your concerns and take things said on an internet forum with a grain of salt...it is just common sense. 👍
 
rickblas said:
I agree with the person above me...this was mentioned only briefly here on SDN...also don't jump to conclusions. I am sure if Buffalo adds 50 international students that their faculty would be adjusted (i.e. more full time or more hired faculty). Also, if the international program is anything like other schools, these students will NOT be part of your grading curve...so why are you jumping to the conclusion that you will be ranked less? That would just NOT make sense to rank internationals in the same system as 4year DDS/DMD seekers (There would be a huge uproar about this from Buffalo students if this ever happened). Also, how would it be harder to specialize? Specializing depends on the individual not a group?

Gosh I don't see why you freak out so much! 🙂. If anything call Buffalo about your concerns and take things said on an internet forum with a grain of salt...it is just common sense. 👍
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The 3 international students we had in our class at Buffalo got ranked in with the regular DDS students starting in second year. One of them landed right into the top ten. Although it doesn't matter anymore so many years out of school, it sure felt lousy at the time trying to get into the top ten only to find out a practicing dentist from another country had taken one of the spots.
 
So with 25 new international students entering the class... would that be a lot worse?
a deal breaker?
 
gryffindor said:
The 3 international students we had in our class at Buffalo got ranked in with the regular DDS students starting in second year. One of them landed right into the top ten. Although it doesn't matter anymore so many years out of school, it sure felt lousy at the time trying to get into the top ten only to find out a practicing dentist from another country had taken one of the spots.
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That sounds extremely lousy. On that account, I would call Buffalo and ask them all these questions Toothblaster (you'll get more accurate and quicker answers then asking on sdn). That's what I would do....good luck!
 
rickblas said:
That sounds extremely lousy. On that account, I would call Buffalo and ask them all these questions Toothblaster (you'll get more accurate and quicker answers then asking on sdn). That's what I would do....good luck!
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I have an interview there on Friday, I am going to ask them about this regardless cause it could be a dealbreaker. But they will probably talk down its importance b/c of the obvious negativity this brings to US students.
 
Penn also has an international Class and I think Columbia does too. I also went to Penn a few years ago and I thought it was a great school. My only complaints were the cost and Endo. Penn was a very fun school, and the faculty made sure there were social events all the time through GAPSA (graduate association), including renting bars out with other graduate schools. The Dental Fraternities throw pretty good parties. The science classes like a previous poster said are amazing, so much so that it was not uncommon for more than half the class to score over 90's on the boards. Hence why so much of the class goes on the specialize. But the facilities are old, the school is not as progressive compared to some other schools and really believes in specialties- aka you may learn crown lengthening at U of P, but at Penn that is something perio does, same with surgical extractions and oral surgery. Bottom line I would say if you are not thinking of specializing or are super smart enough to probably get into the top 10 (or even 20) at another school like Buffalo than definitely go there. You will save 100K and that goes a long way when you get out, including being able to take alot of CE, being able to finance a practice purchase sooner, etc. Regarding endo overall we get more endo experience due to higher endo requirements, it sucks we didnt get to learn rotary. I doubt thats going to change much until Dr. Joi leaves. BUT, I also dont think it is that big a deal as if you get everything else down- access and find the canals, with rotary you are supposed to hand file up to a #15 file anyway, so you can learn to use the other 3 rotary files in a one day CE course. I would have much rather learned using the Obtura and Warm vertical condensation instead of cold.
 
You need to be super smart to probably get into the top 10 (or even 20) at another school like Buffalo in order to specialize? But at Upenn and Columbia you won't have to be in the top 10 to specialize? why?

Soupower, why would it be a deal breaker for you?
 
SoulPower said:
I have an interview there on Friday, I am going to ask them about this regardless cause it could be a dealbreaker. But they will probably talk down its importance b/c of the obvious negativity this brings to US students.
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Yes please do ask and come back to us here with an answer.
 
ToothBlaster said:
You need to be super smart to probably get into the top 10 (or even 20) at another school like Buffalo in order to specialize? But at Upenn and Columbia you won't have to be in the top 10 to specialize? why?

Soupower, why would it be a deal breaker for you?
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Well the way the posts on SDN have been making it seem like some certain other schools, I do not remember which, students were waking up at 6 am to schedule their chair that day just so you know you have one. I wouldn't want to do that in dental school even if it means going to a different school that's more expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty sure I'm going to like the school from the overall perspective SDN has told me and from my interview this Friday. But I am accepted already so my ultimate decision is: is this school better than the one I'm already going to attend? So it'd be a dealbreaker as in I wouldn't attend there over my acceptance already. Just clarifying and no bad mouthing intended.
 
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ToothBlaster said:
You need to be super smart to probably get into the top 10 (or even 20) at another school like Buffalo in order to specialize? But at Upenn and Columbia you won't have to be in the top 10 to specialize? why?

Soupower, why would it be a deal breaker for you?
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This not necessarily the case, but I think you would have a better chance at Penn. If you look at Penn's Class they have an average of half the class go into specialties. Only a select few schools can boast numbers like that. Now while I understand more people might be applying to specialties at a school like Penn, I dont think it is a significant number to skew the numbers that much. I think it comes from Penn's reputation as well as their top notch academic courses enabling a lot of the class to get such good board scores. I was around #50 or perhaps even lower in my class but averaged a 91 on part one. When I was applying for a GPR I was asked by two schools why with such good grades (which I thought were pretty poor) at Penn I wasnt applying for a specialty.
 
SoulPower said:
Well the way the posts on SDN have been making it seem.
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this here is the reason why people making sweeping generalization about all dental schools (which is ironically a sweeping generalization on my part).

take what you read on SDN with a grain of salt. a lot of what people say here is out of context, misinformed, or both.

SUMMARY: bust your a** at any dental school and you will get to where you want to be. nothing is handed to you, you have to earn it.
 
flapaTron said:
this here is the reason why people making sweeping generalization about all dental schools (which is ironically a sweeping generalization on my part).

take what you read on SDN with a grain of salt. a lot of what people say here is out of context, misinformed, or both.

SUMMARY: bust your a** at any dental school and you will get to where you want to be. nothing is handed to you, you have to earn it.
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I definitely take everything I read on SDN with a grain of salt, and I'm not talking specializing either just chair availability at Buffalo due to increased uptake of international students; which should concern everybody who wants/decides to go there.

I know, unlike some people on here, that the school you go to does not matter, it is your grades during school that do. I believe that schools like Penn get so many post graduate specialists because those students bust their a** not because the school's name somehow endows them with the ability to match into any program.
 
I understand that I will pay off my student loans sooner which is financially smart if I go to Buffalo. But I hear that dentists do not have a problem paying off their student loans when they graduate and begin working full time. Also, Penn has an amazing reputation, faculty, and options in case I want to specialize. Penn will help more than Buffalo in terms of getting into a specialty?
 
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ToothBlaster said:
I understand that I will pay off my student loans sooner which is financially smart if I go to Buffalo. But I hear that dentists do not have a problem paying off their student loans when they graduate and begin working full time. Also, Penn has an amazing reputation, faculty, and options in case I want to specialize. Penn will help more that Buffalo in terms of getting into a specialty? Right?
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Once you get into that specialty that Penn will hand to you, you will be using money as TP anyways...burn it now, it doesn't matter, Penn grads are each given a seed to plant their own money tree at commencement.
 
Regmata said:
Once you get into that specialty that Penn will hand to you, you will be using money as TP anyways...burn it now, it doesn't matter, Penn grads are each given a seed to plant their own money tree at commencement.
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👍
 
ToothBlaster said:
I understand that I will pay off my student loans sooner which is financially smart if I go to Buffalo. But I hear that dentists do not have a problem paying off their student loans when they graduate and begin working full time. Also, Penn has an amazing reputation, faculty, and options in case I want to specialize. Penn will help more than Buffalo in terms of getting into a specialty?
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We haven't had a "zomg Ivy is amazing" poster in a while.

You don't hear about dentists having problems paying student loans because student loans are not discharged in bankruptcy. With this crappy economy, I've heard of more than instance of dentists having to declare bankruptcy. Go to Dentaltown and read about some of them and their personal experiences. But their student loans will haunt them till death.

Sure, I wouldn't have a problem paying my student loans if I had a $3K - $4K per month payment. I would just have to readjust other parts of my life. I'd probably be working 6 days/week to make the extra income to pay the loan (I work 3). I would be more hesitant about starting my own practice because the stakes are much higher if it fails. I'd have to adjust where I live as well to have a smaller rent/mortgage payment to ensure I have enough money in the monthly budget to pay the student loans. I definitely would have to limit my vacations and CE courses. I certainly didn't realize this when I was in school - but you will pay $300K for a DDS (and more if you specialize) and then pay thousands of dollars MORE after you graduate to learn advanced skills your dental school won't have time to teach you. You don't have to take CE courses, but you'll find yourself wanting to and if you don't have the money for it, your future income will be limited because you'll be spending all your money paying for your past decisions.

If you have to borrow 100% of the cost of dental school to attend, then you would be VERY UNWISE to select anything but the cheapest school.

I don't know who thinks Penn has an "amazing" reputation. People in the dental world don't care. Your patients will confuse Penn with Penn State. Students specialize from Buffalo every year. But you sound like one of those posters who will be impossible to convince otherwise.
 
gryffindor said:
I don't know who thinks Penn has an "amazing" reputation. People in the dental world don't care. Your patients will confuse Penn with Penn State. Students specialize from Buffalo every year. But you sound like one of those posters who will be impossible to convince otherwise.
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👍👍👍👍
 
What if you want to specialize? Could someone tell me or let me know where I can find info on Buffalo's placement rate of their graduates into specialty programs please? How do Buffalo student's do in matching in more competitive specialities like ortho, oral surg (6 year program), and endo?
And, since, the national dental boards will no longer be graded, but rather are going to be pass/fail, doesn't this make it even more difficult, for specialty programs to choose candidates based on merit alone? They may end up using the school you came from and its reputation as one of the consideration factors?
 
ToothBlaster said:
What if you want to specialize? Could someone tell me or let me know where I can find info on Buffalo's placement rate of their graduates into specialty programs please? How do Buffalo student's do in matching in more competitive specialities like ortho, oral surg (6 year program), and endo?
And, since, the national dental boards will no longer be graded, but rather are going to be pass/fail, doesn't this make it even more difficult, for specialty programs to choose candidates based on merit alone? They may end up using the school you came from and its reputation as one of the consideration factors?
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I am in the class of 2011 at Penn and all I can say is that I think it does give an edge in terms of specializing. If you want to do general I would save money. Just to compare to a nearby school....this year 11 out of 11 who applied to OMFS from my class got in (plus another one with a weird situation so that makes 12)....at Temple I heard 4 out of 9 got into OMFS. Ortho was like 11 for 13 or something and Peds was high too. Now, it could be the students...I dont know....but at my interviews people were impressed that I went to Penn and I know it helped. I personally think that the school has a bigger name in the dental world than it deserves...there are a lot of major issues right now and you would save yourself a lot of trouble and money if you wanted to do general and went to a different school. But if you know you want to specialize, I think it is worth the investment.
 
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