UPenn vs. Columbia MSTP

[bakaFOB]

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Hi all,
I'm currently considering MSTP between UPenn and Columbia and I'd like to know what you think of these two programs to help me make this tough decision. Based on my my limited knowledge, I'm under the impression Columbia is stronger in research while Penn has a better med school. Also, Columbia MSTP seems to cut out a little bit of clinical training (pros and cons?) Penn seems to have a more organzied program and seems to provide a better living environment. Please lemme know what you think of the above issues.

Thnx

 

[Habari]

hey - i didn't seee you at the revisit this weekend (or perhaps i did ?). i withdrew from penn recently, and was blown away by columbia this past weekend. they are both excellent programs, but their strengths/weekends lie in different areas.


program: the penn program is undoubtedly better, along with washU and corenll - the best run. whether this is a requirement for you is another issue. they do a lot of little things for you - and i kinda think of it as that dude in nice bathrooms gives you soap and hands you a towel - nice, but i could do that myself. as for advising, you will get excellent advising at both places. columbia had a some problems with this in the past years (along with hms and ucsf), but they have come around nicely.

medschool: i liked both med schools quite a bit, both excellent. they have different feels - personal thing. columbias curric is very thorough. there is small group case study stuff more in the second year - and the p/f grading fosters a very coop class (but there are gunners there like any palce). there is a good clinical competancy course during phd years. penn also has a some major pluses, 6 months of clinical exposure before you start phd and take step1s. this also means that the 1.5 years is rather hectic, but they obviously turn out great docs.

research: this is where columbia def trumps penn. they are allstars in neuro, structural stuff, chemistry, virology, and other stuff that is out of my realm. i believe penn has a very strong immunology program. the other thing i really liked is that there is a great deal of respect between the phd's and md's, both research and clinical work.

location: i had heard so much crap about columbia's location - but its very safe, and new york city is just amazing. the west side has so much going for it, really just an enjoyable location. philly is a great city too - i've lived near there for a while, which has made me a little ambivelant to it. no complaints though.

students: at first, i didn't think i would like the students at columbia, i had some preconcieved notions about them. after spending time with them - i was pleasently surprised, they are social, talented peeps that work hared and play hard. the students at penn are undoubtedly excellent, but i didn't get the same feeling as at columbia.

best

 

[DarkChild]

where you at the Columbia MSTP revisit this weekend?
if so, we might have met? 😉

 

[Neuronix]

Go to Columbia, that might be the spot that opens up for me at UPenn 🙂

Sorry, useless and off-topic... I'm just waiting and hoping...

 

[FunnyBones]

At the end of the day you will get equivalent educations at UPenn and Columbia. They are both fantastic so you really can't go wrong. Go where you want to be location and environment wise. NYC and Philly are both "big" cities but very different places to get to know. NYC is arguable the greatest/most encompassing city in the world but Philly is much more accessible.

A few things about Penn. Medical education is second to none. Research is not as saturated with huge name labs esp in basic sci depts (compared to say Rockefeller, Hopkins, HMS etc) but the breadth is incredible. Also, medically focused research in clinical departments is enormous (2 or 3 in NIH $s) and an advantage once you develop a clinical focus.

The biggest difference of going to Penn is the size and infrastructure and the benefits that go along with that. You will have many colleagues, a great office that takes care of you (less like being handed a towel and more like having lots of clean toilets) and lots of support, yes. But one of the biggest advantages is that you have such a variety of interests among students. Not everyone goes into Med Peds etc and the exchange and support you get from the other 170+ students is enormous no matter what field you want to enter. For instance, here are the match results of MD-PhDs from this year our biggest graduating class to date (16 of 27 matched outside of Med/Ped/Neuro/Path):

4 Med (MGH, UPenn)
4 Peds (CHOP, U of Chicago, Children's Memorial/NWU)
4 Rads (UPenn, MGH, Mallinckrodt/WashU, Utah)
3 Ortho (UPenn, UPitt)
3 Psych (UPenn, Stanford)
2 NeuroSurg (UPenn)
2 Path (UPenn)
1 NucMed (UPenn)
1 G Surg (Brigham)
1 ENT (UPenn)
1 Derm (MGH)
1 Neuro (UPenn)
27 Total

16 UPenn/CHOP
5 MGH/Brigham
6 Other (Stanford, UPitt, Wash U, Utah, U of Chicago, NWU)
2 Couple's Match (Rads-Derm, Rads-Ortho)

You have a great choice so relax and go with what feels better for you. You can PM me if you have further questions.

***************************
Stanford Undergrad '94
UPenn SOM, MD-PhD, '95-'03
UPenn Orthopaedic Surgery '03-'08

 

[CaNEM]

Columbia Rox 😉

 

[bakaFOB]

hey guys,
thnx for sharing ur thoughts on this matter. It really helps to see what other MSTP applicants are thinking.

Harbari, Darkchild- No i wasn't able to go to columbia revisit last weekend. But chances are we've met already in one of the MSTP interviews. I think I'll go up to Columbia during the MD second look weekend.

FunnyBones - thnx for the post. It's nice to hear from someone who's actually gone through the process.


Well I guess I'm still undecided at this point. Tho I think i'm very lucky to have to make this decision. I agree that location/environment is very important. I think UPenn is one of the few among the top med schools that has an undergrad campus. Although I can definitely see the advantages of being in NYC. And being a minority, it's nice to be in a city as diverse as NYC.

So which programs are u guys serioulsy considering? I'm sure u all have many choices. Lemme know if you are committed to Penn or Columbia.. and why.. thnx a lot!


Baka

 

[surge]

WashU or Yale.....? 😉

 

[Neuronix]

I definately want to be at Penn. I have some personal reasons for wanting to be there though. Besides being a strong program, my girlfriend has to stay in the area for at least another two years, so it would be nice to be with her. Also, my father had one of the first liver transplants (the first?) performed at Penn, so that's really where my dream of finding and applying new cures for disease began.

I told them they were my first choice on my secondary, at the interview, and then afterwards with an LOI. I guess my reasons weren't good enough for them though, since I'm still on the waitlist.

 

[ATLien1224]

Hey bakaFOB,

I'm a first year in the Columbia MSTP...I just wanted to give you some stats since you had some Penn ones there as well.

Our match list this year went like this:

Brigham & Women's Int. Med.

Albert Einstein Transitional
Hosp. of UPenn Anesthesiology

Yale-New Haven Medicine-Prelim
Albert Einstein Neurology

Barnes-Jewish (Wash U.) Pediatrics

Johns Hopkins Int. Med.

Johns Hopkins Int. Med.

NYP Columbia-Pres. Int. Med.

Yale-New Haven Psychiatry

St. Luke's-Roosevelt Medicine-Prelim.
Havard (MGH/BWH) Neurology

Mass General Pathology


I think this compares pretty favorably with Penn's match given our smaller size. I feel the main advantage of Columbia is that you get the opportunity to go to a different great school for your residency (as opposed to a lot of schools, where you basically make an 10 year commitment, 7 for MD/PhD and then 3 for residency at the same place). This is a major strength.
Also you brought up the living arrangements...I was down in Philly last night for an underground hip-hop show and I was thinking about how happy I am to live in New York...there's just so much more energy. The first year dorm isn't so hot, but after that the school housing is great. And socially, I think it's a big plus to have campus-centered housing (I don't think Penn had that from when I was looking at it).

At Columbia you'll receive both an excellent medical education as well as great basic science training, as you would at Penn. But I think that in the end it comes down to quality of life (I know it did for me), and for that you have to be in New York. The advising and organization here is on the rise, plus the stipend is very generous ($25k at least for next year, cost of living increase every year) so it's very liveable in the city.

Anyways just wanted to throw that out there. You can drop me a line if you have any questions.

 

[surge]

Originally posted by ATLien1224
I feel the main advantage of Columbia is that you get the opportunity to go to a different great school for your residency (as opposed to a lot of schools, where you basically make an 10 year commitment, 7 for MD/PhD and then 3 for residency at the same place). This is a major strength.

Um, what do you mean by this? Could you please elaborate?

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by ATLien1224
(I don't think Penn had that from when I was looking at it).

Penn's lack of graduate/family housing is a serious downfall for me. However, the fact that Penn students appear to remain at the school is a plus for me since it potentially means I won't have to relocate to a new city with a teenager.

 

[ATLien1224]

Hey sorry for my earlier vague comments. They were a little off the cuff.

I just felt that at a lot of schools I considered, a large proportion of students remained in the same place for their residency. Hence, the high probability of an additional time commitment beyond the MD/PhD at the same school (but obviously not something you're committed to; maybe my earlier posting gave that false impression).

I don't know what factors into this decision (i.e. is that the best place they got into, did they like it so much they wanted to stay), but I wanted to go someplace where I had significant mobility after the MD/PhD (I came to Columbia straight out of college). But if you want to stay at Columbia, you definitely can. I just think it's a plus to know that you'll have lots of excellent options if you are looking for a change of scenery and want to get a feel for different styles of medical education for your residency years.

 

[DarkChild]

hmmmm.... ATLien1224:
did you go to princeton?
are you from atlanta?
are you a first year MudPhud at CU?
and how's your girlfriend doing? 😉
lol - if this has NOTHING to do with who you are, carry on...

 

[celly]

Look, both schools and both programs are great. Both have lots of positives with Columbia better on some points and UPenn better on others. BUT.........................

 

[celly]

When you consider one thing, the decision will become clearer.
And that is, "Where do you want to spend the next 7 years of your life?"
By that I mean do you want to spend the rest of your 20s, your most glorious years of social life, in Philly or New York City. By the time you have finished the MSTP you will be at or very close to your 30s, probably have found your life partner and probably be considering when and where you want to have a family.
At that point you will no longer be making decision based solely on your needs and desires.
So, if you think being in Philadelphia for at least the next 7 years really will fulfill your social and lifestyle needs, then so be it.
But to me, there would be no greater regret than to pass up the chance to spend the most exciting, social engaging part of my life in any place except New York City.

7years + one place = has to be NYC

 

[dl2dp2]

http://216.122.249.62/columbia/dev/site/home/

it looks pretty cool

I'm a sort of a pre-Columbia MS-1 student. I didn't get an interview at Penn. I visited Columbia and really loved it.

btw, one thing that i've just noticed about columbia from the website is that it is one of the few schools that have the options of doing the phd in
(1) applied physics & math
(2) evolutionary biology (very cool primate people with the American museum)
(3) public health & health policy

also, from the tone of the site it sounds like the program is financially sound, which is good news. (for one, it takes international students and gives the same amount of funding)

Penn probably has a better engineering school. Penn has a better cell/mol/genetics program. HUP is perhaps inches above Columbia Presby. the patient base is very close. for neuro kids though, particularly molecular/cell neuro, Columbia's PhD program is in the league with UCSF, Salk, Rockfeller and HMS, most likely better than Hopkins, Wash U. and the neurology/psychiatry clinical programs at columbia are probably in the top 5

Columbia's MSTP is building the infrastructure right now. They are hiring a full-time administrator. the medical school is very research oriented. one thing though is that the medical school is so driven by neurosciences that i worry people who are not in the neurosciences may feel left out.

In any case, if you are looking for more clinically oriented career (i.e. cancer, pulmonary, emergency etc) I believe Penn is a better choice. For anything neuro related (i.e. psych, neuro, neuro surgery) Columbia is a better choice. The only exception is perhaps structural biology/virology/proteomics, where both schools are very strong.

 

[FunnyBones]

First, in the grand scheme of things, you can't go wrong with either.

Second, NYC and Philly are very different and NYC is much larger/grander but you just have to go with what you prefer.

Third, as for mobility, regionalism is the rule for residency. For Penn last year, many if not most people left; this year many stayed (almost everyone got their #1 choice). "Leaving" usually means most people stay NE and a few go West, MW or "back home." Historically, Columbia is no exception; most top schools show this pattern.

Fourth, all the top programs match well so don't worry about that. Penn is different in one way because there are so many who go into non-traditional fields. Many programs (inc Columbia) will strongly strongly try to influence you to do med/peds/neuro/path, specialties that are currently not that competitive--but that's a separate issue.

Third, some general advice for those choosing programs now or in early years.
1. Don't get stressed about the "strength" of your PhD research. Unless you plan on skipping a residency, going directly to a post-doc and then a research faculty position all in the same field, the topic of your work matters little. You really really should publish, but again, because you will be doing a res and you will most likely change research topics, there is little practical difference between Nat Med and Developmental Dynamics. Ego factor, on the other hand, is a different issue.
2. DON'T make your decisions based on a statistic. Many programs' stats (such as match lists) can look very different from year to year and programs have a tendency to emphasize what looks good. Try to look beyond that. Programs will still tell you "most" people graduate in "7" if the average is 7.4 over the last 10 years and yet 80% of people in the last 3 finished in 8 or more.
3. Regionalism is still strong in medicine AND it is not necessarily a bad thing. Yes you can overcome this and yes many people do move around. But for the most part, most people tend to match close to their med school. This is not because the school tries to keep you there and others out but because of the relationships you forge. Residency is about working with other people so while academic record is still key, interpersonal relationships become MUCH more important. Res Programs want to hire people they want to work with. So, it is only natural that faculty that know you well (at your med school) will rank you highly if they like you. Similarly, faculty at your school will have more contacts regionally than nationally, so your rec letters will go further locally etc.
4. Just go for what you want. Make a list, whether it be by city, reputation, life-style or a combination and just go with the top of the list. Don't get bogged down trying to predict what you think will turn out to be the best. Your research topic will change. Your outlook on life, single bachelorhood/girlfriend, favorite food/sports team/movie are all more likely to change than not--it's going to be almost a third of your life! So enjoy it.

-FunnyBones
Before MD-PhD program:
California is the best
Single
Must do immuno research
Future pediatrician
After 8 years:
Ca and the NE are the best
Married
Did cancer research followed by bone post-doc
Future orthopaedic surgeon

 

[chef]

hey funnybones, have u already matched in ortho? what do PDs say when a mdphd applies to their programs? dont surgeons consider mdphds 'labrats' who shouldn't be hangin around ORs? lol

more seriously i've been getting impressions that when PDs see mdphd applicants they consider us as more lab folks rather than clinicians, so i wonder what happens when mdphds apply to surgical specialties.

 

[FunnyBones]

I have matched at UPenn (couple's with wife in Rads).

All PDs are aware of the acute shortage of clinician-scientists in orthopaedics. The AAOS has made it clear that it want more research in ortho. Many but not all want to do something about it--but not at the expense of clinical excellence. In other words, they want you if you look like a good clinician AND scientist. In that case, the PhD will be a bonus. Some top programs were very receptive to the extra research experience. Send me a PM if you want more info on this.

This year, I saw 3 from Penn, 1 ea from Harvard, WashU and I thought Columbia (but I don't see it on the list above so maybe it was Cornell) on the trail. I'm sure there was a bunch I never saw, just didn't know about or don't remember. All three from Penn did well clinically (one was AOA) and we got interviews from the likes of HSS, Pitt, Harvard, Iowa, Mayo, WashU, UCSF, Hopkins etc.

For the most part though, PDs want surgeon first, scientist second.

***************************
Stanford Undergrad '94
UPenn SOM, MD-PhD, '95-'03
UPenn Orthopaedic Surgery '03-'08

 

[Oak]

Hey. I realize that this is somewhat of an old post, but I know that a few of you are still active in the forums and i was hoping to make use of your hindsight. I'm trying to decide between these two schools right now and would appreciate any additional perspective from someone who'se already been through the application/decision process. (Yes, Penn's letters haven't gone out yet but, IMO, signs look good 😀 )

Thanks

BTW - first post on this forum! (and i do plan to contribute rather than just ask questions as is sometimes the case in these things)

 

[jjmack]

good choice to have. I think it comes down to three things. Most importantly, where do you feel happy. Who has the better research in what you want to work on. Finally what type of location do you perfer. I still have no idea where my Columbia MSTP decision letter is so I hope you go to Penn so I can hopefully get in to columbia. Also I have bene working at columbia for the last 2.5 years doing research so if you have any questions send me a PM. Good luck and congrats.

 

[ImmunoANT]

Hey. I realize that this is somewhat of an old post, but I know that a few of you are still active in the forums and i was hoping to make use of your hindsight. I'm trying to decide between these two schools right now and would appreciate any additional perspective from someone who'se already been through the application/decision process. (Yes, Penn's letters haven't gone out yet but, IMO, signs look good 😀 )
QUOTE]

have we met? I practically went to all the friday receptions and night life stuff. 🙄

hmmm... should really get back to neuroanatomy now 😱

 

[Oak]

Bump!