ups guy makes more than me

[doctalaughs]

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So one of my patients, a UPS delivery guy (driver), mentioned his salary the other day.... 130k/yr. He works 7am to 3 or 4pm, M-F, been there for 20 years.

I can't help but think how unfair that is... Doctors really need to unionize. I mean, after 14+ years of post high school education, well over 200k of debt not to mention lost years of earning we end up making the same as the UPS guy, probably less if you are counting per hour. Should have just gone to UPS after high school and joined the union. Low stress, don't get sued... take up some interesting hobbies on the side to keep life interesting.

Just a thought.

 

[thefighter]

I totally feel your pain...I only just started residency and I am already feeling like that. If only I knew then what I know now is my only regret. Cant imagine how I will feel later.
With the proposed health reforms I think a lot students will be discouraged from pursuing medicine and I honestly dont blame them.

 

[medicinesux]

By the way, did he forget to mention his pension and full benefits?

Here is an excerpt from a USA today article about UPS drivers from 2003 I found online where two UPS drivers were quoted:

Styger joined UPS 26 years ago, unable to find full-time work as a pharmacist after graduating from the University of Montana. "To tell you the truth, my family wondered why I was doing this after getting a pharmacology degree," he says. "But in terms of pay and benefits, it's comparable to being a pharmacist"

Wingate, 51, who has been driving the same Fort Collins, Colo., route the past 12 years, spent several years as a veterinarian in rural Minnesota. "I cleared over $100,000 in the last year of my partnership, but it was a lot of hours and a lot of stress," he says. "People would call me in the middle of the night. Sometimes, I took animals home with me."

The thought of driving for UPS, or better yet, a big rig and being on the open road in a country with amazing and diversified scenery listening to XM satellite radio pawns the life out of droning away over countless patient charts and dealing with endless bureaucratic hospital BS while my pager is going off every 5 damn minutes. Not to mention that the trucking industry has tight work hour restrictions where you won't have to pull 24 marathon hour shifts anymore. According to wikipedia, "In the United States, the Hours of service (HOS) of commercial drivers are regulated by the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration (FMCSA). Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) drivers are limited to 11 cumulative hours driving in a 14-hour period, which must then be followed by a rest period of no less than 10 consecutive hours." Yet, it is still OK to staff an ICU for 24-30 hrs with critically ill and dying patients.😕 By the way, did your patient mention if they had any openings?

If anybody is interested in a career in the trucking industry, I also found their main forum with nearly 700,000 posts and 29,000 members:

http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/

(After reading through some of the trucking threads I have come to the stark realization I should've dropped out of high school at 16, gotten a GED, and enrolled in a one month truck driving course. Imagine how much I could've saved by now banking cash starting in my teens till now WITH NO STUDENT LOANS and not having 8 YEARS OF LOST WAGES!)

 

[Boxer1]

So one of my patients, a UPS delivery guy (driver), mentioned his salary the other day.... 130k/yr. He works 7am to 3 or 4pm, M-F, been there for 20 years.

I doubt he was done by 3 PM. When I was loading trucks for UPS those guys usually worked 7ish until 5:30-7 PM and they ran all day long. They also pay their dues, most drivers were loading trucks on the swing shift for years before they worked their way up the waitlist to be a driver. Then you work your way up the seniority list to get better route. Then comes the 6 figure salary and 6 weeks of vacation/year 🙂.

I'm not knocking it, they have a very good job and it comes from a fair union and a good company. It's just important to remember that other people pay dues too even if they are not to the extent that some physicians do.

 

[Handinhand]

UPS is definitely a good gig, but it's really the only exception in the truck driving industry. MOST drivers don't have a job like that, with full benefits, pension, and a salary of over 100k/year. I know a few people that drive through UPS (friends of my dad, the lady that delivers to my dad's business) and they all had to start at the bottom and work their way up through years of bitch work. It isn't fair though, but such is life.

 

[TexasFight]

I doubt he was done by 3 PM. When I was loading trucks for UPS those guys usually worked 7ish until 5:30-7 PM and they ran all day long. They also pay their dues, most drivers were loading trucks on the swing shift for years before they worked their way up the waitlist to be a driver. Then you work your way up the seniority list to get better route. Then comes the 6 figure salary and 6 weeks of vacation/year 🙂.

I'm not knocking it, they have a very good job and it comes from a fair union and a good company. It's just important to remember that other people pay dues too even if they are not to the extent that some physicians do.

It's like residency.🙂

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I bet very few of the people who start at UPS end up with plum jobs like that.

Many probably get crappier jobs with no upward mobility.

And try googling "UPS layoffs" and see what shows up -- looks like they have/will be closing all of their help desks, laying off pilots, etc.

The comparison is not terribly fair. Hey, I'd love to be a professional golfer, but the fact is that most who play golf will never make it to the big time. Chances are probably better in UPS, but it's years of work, luck, and then you might not get a great spot. And, honestly, driving one of those trucks around all day delivering packages would be brain numbing.

 

[lowbudget]

They also pay their dues, most drivers were loading trucks on the swing shift for years before they worked their way up the waitlist to be a driver. Then you work your way up the seniority list to get better route. Then comes the 6 figure salary and 6 weeks of vacation/year 🙂.

Exactly. Come on, man. He's been doing this for 20+ years. You have to work your way up... emphasis on the word "work". I take care of these guys in my practice. They work out in the elements and beat up their bodies. And for some of the guys in similar jobs, if you don't work, you don't get paid and they don't make enough money to slack off work and go to the doctor's. I really enjoy taking care of the honest working middle class.

This is America. If you work hard and do a good job, you will be rewarded. That's it; it's that simple. Great country.

 

[mig26x]

UPS workers aside, the sad thing is you have residents who have undergone 4 years of undergrad and 4 years of medical school making around $45,000/year. The hospital receives 120,000/year to cover educational expenses, malpractice, health insurance, etc. I can see that there are costs to training but find it difficult to believe that hospitals can only dole out about 1/3 of the money allocated for the resident to the resident per year.
.

Yep, very true. I earned 5K less than a fresh out of college nurse at my hospital when I was a PGY2 and thats 70-80 hours vs 48 hours per week.

Now thankfully as a PGY3 I earn the same.

 

[UCLAstudent]

Yep, very true. I earned 5K less than a fresh out of college nurse at my hospital when I was a PGY2 and thats 70-80 hours vs 48 hours per week.

Now thankfully as a PGY3 I earn the same.

Same here! My friend just graduated from college and her starting nursing salary is 58K ... which is a lot more than the 43K I'm earning right now in internship.

 

[doctalaughs]

Exactly. Come on, man. He's been doing this for 20+ years. You have to work your way up... emphasis on the word "work". I take care of these guys in my practice. They work out in the elements and beat up their bodies. And for some of the guys in similar jobs, if you don't work, you don't get paid and they don't make enough money to slack off work and go to the doctor's. I really enjoy taking care of the honest working middle class.

This is America. If you work hard and do a good job, you will be rewarded. That's it; it's that simple. Great country.

I have no problem with honest people making a good salary. I'm happy that a UPS driver with no education beyond high school can work his way up and make as much as a doctor.

I just think doctors need to grow some balls and ask for what they deserve. Band together, demand that after all our hard work we are compensated fairly and don't deal with so much horse **** that decreases quality of patient care.

Just think- we spend like 50% of our time on documentation that isn't efficient for patient care. If we could just document to tell the next provider what happend instead of for the lawyers we could see that many more patients.

 

[medicinesux]

I have no problem with honest people making a good salary. I'm happy that a UPS driver with no education beyond high school can work his way up and make as much as a doctor.

Seriously? Quite frankly, I think it sucks! I am sorry but delivering Ebay crap from LA to Chicago does not equate with the patient who rushes to your office complaining of the worst headache in her life. And since when did learning to drive a truck cost a quarter of a million in tuition and interest? It just goes to show how salaries in medicine have stagnated over the years in comparison to so many other professions. At this rate in another 10 years under ObamaCare, I wouldn't be surprised if starting salaries at UPS begin to trump those of primary care docs after loan payments. This is already the case in many parts of Europe where salaries of 60-70K are the norm for primary care docs in Scandinavia and Germany. Not to mention that these are some of the most expensive countries to live in on the face of the earth. That paltry pay surely doesn't go very far. This is where we will be heading on our current crash course. Actually we will be worse off since we will be carrying 300-400K in student debt whereas this is not an issue in the above mentioned places.
On a side note, I will take a boring job (though I wouldn't find this to be the case with truck driving-rather blissful solitude comes to mind) over a stressful job anyday. Engaging > Boring > Stressful is my own personal hierarchy in job toleration. But I concede that truck driving is not a shabby career. If my kids come out ******ed and weren't college material, this is one of the careers I would recommend for them.

 

[dragonfly99]

medicinesux,
you can still go be a truck driver if you want.
Most truck drivers don't make nearly as much money as you are/will as an attending doc, however. I know someone who drives a truck and those things are hard to drive, also - you can easily have a wreck and end up with big time liability, and then nobody wants to hire you to drive.

I agree with the med school tuition being out of control here in our country, and also with resident salaries being too low. Especially after a couple of years of residency, residents should be paid much more, and should share in other employee benefits (like the holiday/end of year bonus that we never got but all the other hospital employees did!).

 

[maceo]

doctors are suckers

why do you think nurses are saying they can replace doctors.. and we still train them..

its not strange to see ups drivers making more than primary care docs

 

[Raggaman]

As an intern I am aware that I don't know much so don't really mind the 44K. But I do think that pay should increase alot more than 1 or 2K as PGY2 yr onwards as we become more useful. My biggest problem is the massive med school loan that keeps increasing day by day. Now I am torn between wanting to spend the 3-$400 I save after expenses on improving lifestyle or making a loan payment (a drop in the ocean). Life is, after all, ticking away in leaps and bounds. Everyday we see patients who either made bad choices or who were just plain unlucky, die young. It really makes one aware of the frailty of mankind.
I dont know what Obama has in store for health care. Whatever it is, I really dont think it is going to make most of us (docs) happy.

 

[Legion560]

So one of my patients, a UPS delivery guy (driver), mentioned his salary the other day.... 130k/yr. He works 7am to 3 or 4pm, M-F, been there for 20 years.

I can't help but think how unfair that is... Doctors really need to unionize. I mean, after 14+ years of post high school education, well over 200k of debt not to mention lost years of earning we end up making the same as the UPS guy, probably less if you are counting per hour. Should have just gone to UPS after high school and joined the union. Low stress, don't get sued... take up some interesting hobbies on the side to keep life interesting.

Just a thought.

An extra kick in the balls is when they come into your clinic, demand pain meds for a chronic back problem and want their FMLA papers filled out ASAP. Meanwhile, you havent had more than 4-5 hours sleep in days, are grossly underpaid, and have to listen to this guy yak on his cellphone while you are trying to conduct a H & P. Life is good👍

 

[mig26x]

An extra kick in the balls is when they come into your clinic, demand pain meds for a chronic back problem and want their FMLA papers filled out ASAP. Meanwhile, you havent had more than 4-5 hours sleep in days, are grossly underpaid, and have to listen to this guy yak on his cellphone while you are trying to conduct a H & P. Life is good👍

My senior resident in clinic when I was a PGY-1 had a patient, 30 something y/o, who complain of insomnia, living off the government, and my senior told her "well if you work 80 hours per week like me you will fall asleep in seconds". The patient never came back to see her. But I would have paid to see that in person!!!

 

[Substance]

An extra kick in the balls is when they come into your clinic, demand pain meds for a chronic back problem and want their FMLA papers filled out ASAP. Meanwhile, you havent had more than 4-5 hours sleep in days, are grossly underpaid, and have to listen to this guy yak on his cellphone while you are trying to conduct a H & P. Life is good👍

I tell patients to turn their cellphones off when I'm conducting an examination; one small step in reducing wait times.

 

[countingdays]

doctors are suckers

why do you think nurses are saying they can replace doctors.. and we still train them..

its not strange to see ups drivers making more than primary care docs

Doctors are not employees but independent contractors so the government really sticks it to us regarding anti-trust. We don't have an 'employer' to bargain with collectively. Unions are exempt from some price fixing behavior, but as independent contractors, docs can't form a union. If you try to fight for fairness, you get sued and the government screws you. If an auto worker tries to raise his salary and benefits so much that his employer goes bankrupt, the government gives them money. If you try to raise your compensation from medicaid from a money-loosing to a break-even level, then you have to pay a fine. 😱

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Doctors are not employees but independent contractors so the government really sticks it to us regarding anti-trust. We don't have an 'employer' to bargain with collectively. Unions are exempt from some price fixing behavior, but as independent contractors, docs can't form a union. If you try to fight for fairness, you get sued and the government screws you. If an auto worker tries to raise his salary and benefits so much that his employer goes bankrupt, the government gives them money. If you try to raise your compensation from medicaid from a money-loosing to a break-even level, then you have to pay a fine. 😱

You are welcome to take a salaried position in a large medical center, form a union, and negotiate for compensation with your employer. Your local plumber is not allowed to decide, with the other local plumbers, what the going rate for work is. The same is true for physicians. If all physicians, independently, decided to no longer accept medicaid, then the gov't would be forced to raise reimbusements or scrap the program. But physicians can't just get together and decide things like this, for the same reason that oil companies can't get together and set the price of gasoline (Bad example, I know....)

 

[michaelrack]

You are welcome to take a salaried position in a large medical center, form a union, and negotiate for compensation with your employer. Your local plumber is not allowed to decide, with the other local plumbers, what the going rate for work is. The same is true for physicians. If all physicians, independently, decided to no longer accept medicaid, then the gov't would be forced to raise reimbusements or scrap the program. But physicians can't just get together and decide things like this, for the same reason that oil companies can't get together and set the price of gasoline (Bad example, I know....)

I'm not sure about plumbers, but what about auto workers (as GypsySongman mentioned)? Before the government took over most of the American automobile industry, the unions representing the auto workers at the 3 US companies would conspire to make sure that the auto workers at each company made roughly the same salary. Doctors working at 3 different large med centers would never be allowed to coordinate so that they all got roughly the same salary.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm not sure about plumbers, but what about auto workers (as GypsySongman mentioned)? Before the government took over most of the American automobile industry, the unions representing the auto workers at the 3 US companies would conspire to make sure that the auto workers at each company made roughly the same salary. Doctors working at 3 different large med centers would never be allowed to coordinate so that they all got roughly the same salary.

Good question. Let me start by saying I don't really know, but here's how I think it works:

The UAW is an umbrella organization, made up of multiple local unions. Each union belongs to the UAW. Theoretically, the UAW negotiates independently with each of the big 3 to set a contract. However, it's obvious that the negotiations are not completely independent -- I just looked at the most recent contracts and the starting salary lowest level was $14/hr for both Chrysler and GM. INterestingly, it's $14.20 for Ford. So, the UAW appears to be a "union of unions".

Note that the same structure is available in healthcare, via the SIEU. Nothing is stopping anyone from starting a local chapter of the SIEU at their local institution. However, in order to unionize, you must be a salaried employee and the union can only include all similarly employed people. Hence, all of the residents at your program can form a union, but you can't form a union of all the residents at multiple programs in a single city. BUT, if each of the hospitals forms it's own union, all of those unions could belong to the SIEU and that would bring some conformity to the process -- chances are that as the SIEU negotiates with each hospital individually, they will tend to push for the same sorts of things.

Private physicians cannot unionize.