URM Advantage in Medicine

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NontradCA said:
So you're admitting your point is just hyperbolic bs?
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That part that you quoted was hyperbolic, yes. I was using it as a part of my post to talk about the objectivity of URMs gaining an advantage over the subjective evaluation of the non-URM (but still disadvantaged experience). You quoting only that section and then discounting my entire post in a sarcastic manner because of it is why I said that you're taking it out of context.

SunsFun said:
I don't see how you determine that by simply checking the box URM has the same or even greater advantage than someone else with a compelling story.

My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.

Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.
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So you say that some ORMs get an advantage in life and some don't. I've never grown up in a black/hispanic person's shoes so I could be wrong, but I would venture to say that some are beat down all their life and some aren't. Why can't they just explain their case just like ORMs do instead of checking a box that pretty much blankets everyone under the same group and level of experience?
 
Curious shaker, you're in CA and you're applying to mostly Cali schools. How many black applicants do you know? Be honest.
 
TheShaker said:
That part that you quoted was hyperbolic, yes. I was using it as a part of my post to talk about the objectivity of URMs gaining an advantage over the subjective evaluation of the non-URM (but still disadvantaged experience). You quoting only that section and then discounting my entire post in a sarcastic manner because of it is why I said that you're taking it out of context.



So you say that some ORMs get an advantage in life and some don't. I've never grown up in a black/hispanic person's shoes so I could be wrong, but I would venture to say that some are beat down all their life and some aren't. Why can't they just explain their case just like ORMs do instead of checking a box that pretty much blankets everyone under the same group and level of experience?
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The application is not limitless. There is plenty of other things to talk about so why not just check the box for the common experience that is applicable to you as well? It's more convenient for everybody. ORMs most of the time do not face these kind of hurdles and if they do, they can talk about it and explain it better. Being Black or Hispanic in America is in itself a sufficient explanation as to why you would face more discrimination (as I explained in my first response to you).
 
EUA_STPPgraphic.jpg
 
Also, the whole economically disadvantaged argument is LAME for a variety of reasons. For one, there's a place for this in applications. Secondly URMs are disproportionately poorer (significantly) than ORMs.

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/
 
SunsFun said:
The application is not limitless. There is plenty of other things to talk about so why not just check the box for the common experience that is applicable to you as well? It's more convenient for everybody. ORMs most of the time do not face these kind of hurdles and if they do, they can talk about it and explain it better. Being Black or Hispanic in America is in itself a sufficient explanation as to why you would face more discrimination (as I explained in my first response to you).
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I get your point about what URMs will experience at some point in their lives due to their race. I guess what I still don't like about the checkmark is that makes all experiences equivalent (assuming nothing is said about it in other parts of the application) instead of evaluating based on things like intensity and longevity. Then again, I won't pretend to be well versed in the culture of URMs so perhaps I'm being ignorant.
 
NontradCA said:
Also, the whole economically disadvantaged argument is LAME for a variety of reasons. For one, there's a place for this in applications. Secondly URMs are disproportionately poorer (significantly) than ORMs.

http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/
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You are talking about the whole population... of course URM's are typically poorer, that is common sense. But that's not the issue. We are measuring the merits of an URM classification on AMCAS without any consideration of the applicant's SES. Yes, there are places on the app to discuss one's SES or upbringing... but without any pressure by the LCME to have diversity of SES in the class, do schools honestly care that much about SES as they do about skin color?
 
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NontradCA said:
👍
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I was going to respond to your above comment but I'm assuming that you were trying to get that one out of me so there you go. I still don't think that the system logically makes sense and that was explained in the same post.

I never thought I'd end up in one of these URM threads but I'll stop here.
 
cookiemonsters said:
You are talking about the whole population... of course URM's are typically poorer, that is common sense. But we are not talking about that. We are measuring the merits of an URM classification on AMCAS without any consideration of the applicant's SES. Yes, there are places on the app to discuss one's SES or upbringing... but without any pressure by the LCME to have diversity of SES in the class, do schools honestly care that much about SES as they do about URM?
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All of that is emotional conjecture. I'm not sure if anything you said is true and I'm sure you're not either.
 
TheShaker said:
I get your point about what URMs will experience at some point in their lives due to their race. I guess what I still don't like about the checkmark is that makes all experiences equivalent (assuming nothing is said about it in other parts of the application) instead of evaluating based on things like intensity and longevity. Then again, I won't pretend to be well versed in the culture of URMs so perhaps I'm being ignorant.
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I don't know about intensity but I am sure being Black lasts your entire life. Anyway, I see your point now. The thing I have to say is that I don't think checkmark makes those experiences equivalent. It just adds another perspective to consider the applicant's overall experience in.
 
This thread is such a waste of time. Instead of worrying about URMs why don't people worry about getting into med school. No one has a "place" or "seat," you MUST work for it. Most schools have such low amounts of URM students anyways.
 
Also what is this nonsense about URM students being well-off and not poor. Who cares if that is the case. Low-income students applying to med school are rare to begin with. You never hear about ORMs being too well-off and we need more lower-income ones. One of the biggest issues we face is the lack of primary care doctors and increased access to medicine for low-income/poor people. And yet no one seems to be complaining that ORMs accepted to med school are generally much better off than the general population. Don't be hypocritical.
 
LizzyM said:
Above a certain threshold (good enough to have a high likelihood of passing the boards & being licensed), do applicants with higher stats make better medical students? do they make better doctors?

What are "better" ECs? As long as someone has tested their interest in a career in medicine and has demonstrated a willingness to engage in a career in the service industry (because medicine is a service industry), do some ECs predict better performance in medical school than other ECs? Do some ECs predict that one will be a better doctor than other ECs?

Why do some people think that someone less deserving is taking a seat that is, by right, theirs? What gives them the idea that they are better suited for medical school and the practice of medicine particularly among minority patients?
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All very good questions and food for thought.
 
The AA in colleges and medical schools is harmful for both sides of the party, URM and ORM. There is quite a lot of literature on the topic.

It's pretty clear that the best solution would be to even the playing ground much earlier in life, in pre-K and K-12. Give everyone a great foundation when it matters the most, and leave the rest of their lives up to meritocracy.

Of course, that would be socialism we'll have none of that here in 'Murica
 
Abolish URM status, replace it with economic status.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Co-sign X 1,000,000 👍 ...the sense of entitlement is crazy with some of these applicants.
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A guy whose avatar is of a Black Supremecist arguing that Asians have a grandiose sense of "self-entitlement" for demanding a fair race-neutral policy?

My mom was right when she taught me that this world is indeed messed up....

circulus vitios said:
Abolish URM status, replace it with economic status.
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+1
 
RocknRhoLim said:
Also what is this nonsense about URM students being well-off and not poor. Who cares if that is the case. Low-income students applying to med school are rare to begin with. You never hear about ORMs being too well-off and we need more lower-income ones. One of the biggest issues we face is the lack of primary care doctors and increased access to medicine for low-income/poor people. And yet no one seems to be complaining that ORMs accepted to med school are generally much better off than the general population. Don't be hypocritical.
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YES YOU DO. I complain about that all the time. The president of the AAMC talks about it. Patients complain about physicians' inability to relate to them.

Importantly, the LCME does not talk about it, which is why schools preference race to a greater degree than SES.
 
Mt Kilimanjaro said:
YES YOU DO. I complain about that all the time. The president of the AAMC talks about it. Patients complain about physicians' inability to relate to them.

Importantly, the LCME does not talk about it, which is why schools preference race to a greater degree than SES.
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Absolutely not at the same rate you hear about people complain that URM med students are well-off and won't go back to work in under-served areas. There have been multiple threads on sdn alone.
 
LizzyM said:
Dress a class of medical school graduates in identical scrubs and booties. Now identifiy those who are URM and those who came from low SES circumstances.

Some differences last forever. Others, not so much.
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+1000 THIS is what I have been trying to say. I can't run from my skin color by changing the way I dress...I am what I am. A low SES White person can put on a suit or scrubs and they will look the same as their high SES White counterpart wearing the same thing. If I wear those clothes then I can't leave my URM status behind.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2006/04/03/my-black-skin-makes-my-white-coat-vanish.html

^^This article is called "My Black Skin Makes My White Coat Vanish"

Real.

And iave...don't forget the croquet mallets for the country club, bruh...we turning up.
 
LizzyM said:
Dress a class of medical school graduates in identical scrubs and booties. Now identifiy those who are URM and those who came from low SES circumstances.

Some differences last forever. Others, not so much.
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So be honest and tell us that URM is to make more black doctors... don't feed us the sterilized company line that it's to increase the number of physicians who serve poor communities.
 
cookiemonsters said:
So be honest and tell us that URM is to make more black doctors... don't feed us the sterilized company line that it's to increase the number of physicians who serve poor communities.
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http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/02/minority-doctors-diversity

"I'm an ER physician," Dr. Alden Landry told me. "When I walk into patients' rooms and start speaking to them and introduce myself as their doctor, often older black women will say, ‘Thank you for being my doctor! I'm so proud of you. I'm glad you're going to be taking care of me.' They say they feel more comfortable with me as their physician."


"It's not always a rosy picture talking to my patients," he explained. "Early in my career, there was a patient — an older black man — [who] had been in the emergency department for a number of hours, and they'd placed him in the hallway to wait. I went over to talk to him and ask him if he needed anything. ‘Why do they always put the black patients in the hallway?' he asked me." I can't necessarily say he was placed there because of his race – but when you hear comments like that, it shows that patients don't feel appreciated when they're receiving medical care, that they feel like second- or even third-class citizens, that their concerns are being overlooked."


It's for the patients....they feel more comfortable and are able to relate better and trust their physicians who are of their same race. You can't overlook the hundreds of years of racism that have led to people of certain races not trusting hospitals and doctors...by having more Blacks and Latinos and Native American physicians we can break down these walls and help those patients.
 
ChemEngMD said:
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/02/minority-doctors-diversity

“I’m an ER physician,” Dr. Alden Landry told me. “When I walk into patients’ rooms and start speaking to them and introduce myself as their doctor, often older black women will say, ‘Thank you for being my doctor! I’m so proud of you. I’m glad you’re going to be taking care of me.’ They say they feel more comfortable with me as their physician.”


“It’s not always a rosy picture talking to my patients,” he explained. “Early in my career, there was a patient — an older black man — [who] had been in the emergency department for a number of hours, and they’d placed him in the hallway to wait. I went over to talk to him and ask him if he needed anything. ‘Why do they always put the black patients in the hallway?’ he asked me.” I can’t necessarily say he was placed there because of his race – but when you hear comments like that, it shows that patients don’t feel appreciated when they’re receiving medical care, that they feel like second- or even third-class citizens, that their concerns are being overlooked.”


It's for the patients....they feel more comfortable and are able to relate better and trust their physicians who are of their same race. You can't overlook the hundreds of years of racism that have led to people of certain races not trusting hospitals and doctors...by having more Blacks and Latinos and Native American physicians we can break down these walls and help those patients.
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So it's really all about appeasing chip on the shoulder "oh is it because I'm black?!" people.
 
👍 to ChemEng. Also, there needs to be a greater incentive to want to work in primary care and in poor communities where you have to take medicaid/medicare and get screwed by the gov't. Don't expect URMs to flock to these types of jobs either. They have huge med school loans as well. There is a reason why fewer students nowadays go into primary care and the sad truth is that the economic climate is preventing them.
 
RocknRhoLim said:
👍 to ChemEng. Also, there needs to be a greater incentive to want to work in primary care and in poor communities where you have to take medicaid/medicare and get screwed by the gov't. Don't expect URMs to flock to these types of jobs either. They have huge med school loans as well. There is a reason why fewer students nowadays go into primary care and the sad truth is that the economic climate is preventing them.
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Or they've lived in ****holes for the past 22 years of their lives and they're finally glad to have a way out. I'm not an inner-city URM, but I grew up in a rural and medically underserved town. I can't wait to get the hell out of here and never return.
 
ChemEngMD said:
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2012/02/minority-doctors-diversity

"I'm an ER physician," Dr. Alden Landry told me. "When I walk into patients' rooms and start speaking to them and introduce myself as their doctor, often older black women will say, ‘Thank you for being my doctor! I'm so proud of you. I'm glad you're going to be taking care of me.' They say they feel more comfortable with me as their physician."


"It's not always a rosy picture talking to my patients," he explained. "Early in my career, there was a patient — an older black man — [who] had been in the emergency department for a number of hours, and they'd placed him in the hallway to wait. I went over to talk to him and ask him if he needed anything. ‘Why do they always put the black patients in the hallway?' he asked me." I can't necessarily say he was placed there because of his race – but when you hear comments like that, it shows that patients don't feel appreciated when they're receiving medical care, that they feel like second- or even third-class citizens, that their concerns are being overlooked."


It's for the patients....they feel more comfortable and are able to relate better and trust their physicians who are of their same race. You can't overlook the hundreds of years of racism that have led to people of certain races not trusting hospitals and doctors...by having more Blacks and Latinos and Native American physicians we can break down these walls and help those patients.
Click to expand...

I am OK with this, I definitely empathize that we all connect with people who look like us or share common experiences. But I wish medical schools could just say this instead of saying that URM is to serve poor communities... if you want people who will potentially serve poor/underserved communities, then I think extra consideration should be given to the applicant's upbringing. Maybe we have an answer to the question of "Why do underserved communities continuously stay underserved?"
 
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circulus vitios said:
Or they've lived in ****holes for the past 22 years of their lives and they're finally glad to have a way out. I'm not an inner-city URM, but I grew up in a rural and medically underserved town. I can't wait to get the hell out of here and never return.
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Yep, I know what you mean. I grew up in the inner-city and it's just a depressing place. But I do intend on helping and doing my part. I just wish people would understand that that is not the job of the URM med student. They can do whatever the hell they want.
 
circulus vitios said:
Or they've lived in ****holes for the past 22 years of their lives and they're finally glad to have a way out. I'm not an inner-city URM, but I grew up in a rural and medically underserved town. I can't wait to get the hell out of here and never return.
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You don't feel any sort of sense of duty to your rural community? To help those that are underserved and need you? I know there are multiple schools that recruit students from rural backgrounds for just that reason.
 
RocknRhoLim said:
This thread is such a waste of time. Instead of worrying about URMs why don't people worry about getting into med school. No one has a "place" or "seat," you MUST work for it. Most schools have such low amounts of URM students anyways.
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+1. It's actually mind-blowing that this "debate" is still going on.
 
ChemEngMD said:
You don't feel any sort of sense of duty to your rural community? To help those that are underserved and need you? I know there are multiple schools that recruit students from rural backgrounds for just that reason.
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I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
 
circulus vitios said:
I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
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I don't hold it against you for wanting to get out, growing up poor/rural sucks... by any means necessary.
 
circulus vitios said:
I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
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You think people CHOOSE to become/remain poor? No one wants that.
 
circulus vitios said:
I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
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👍

Edit: I would add that maybe I would try in ways to help the town but definitely not want to live and practice there permanently.
 
circulus vitios said:
I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
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Dang...alright, man. To each their own. I won't judge you, I just hope that if you do end up in one of those rural primary care physician programs that you consider helping those people...as I'm sure you know, they need it. I have personally spent part of my life in rural underserved and part in urban underserved and the people in both places need the help from my experiences.
 
.
 
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circulus vitios said:
I applied to schools that aim to create rural primary care physicians. Sure, I've written secondaries about my desire to "return to my home town," but it's all a lie. I did my time in this worthless garbage dump and I'm going to leave this miserable piece of crap town one way or another. I feel absolutely no duty -- in fact, I feel nothing but contempt for the people who choose to remain here.
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And I hope and pray that every school that reads your essays sees right through you and gives you what you deserve: no interview.

And I hope that if you do interview, that your true colors shine through and the schools find people who better alighned with their mission.
 
LizzyM said:
And I hope and pray that every school that reads your essays sees right through you and gives you what you deserve: no interview.

And I hope that if you do interview, that your true colors shine through and the schools find people who better alighned with their mission.
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eb01554a60e3caa0b09263ed21ffb0197e13ded.gif
 
LizzyM said:
And I hope and pray that every school that reads your essays sees right through you and gives you what you deserve: no interview.

And I hope that if you do interview, that your true colors shine through and the schools find people who better alighned with their mission.
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Yes, because the schools have been so successful at finding people 'better aligned with their mission,' which is why there hasn't been a continus shortage of primary care physicians in rural and inner-city underserved areas for the past 30+ years.

Keep up the good work, LizzyM. 👍
 
circulus vitios said:
Yes, because the schools have been so successful at finding people 'better aligned with their mission,' which is why there hasn't been a continus shortage of primary care physicians in rural and inner-city underserved areas for the past 30+ years.

Keep up the good work, LizzyM. 👍
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Maybe the reason that we continue to have shortages of PCPs in rural and inner-city underserved areas is because of med school applicants lying on their apps and claiming to want to help communities that they truly have disdain for...🙄

The whole lie, cheat, BS, and say/do anything possible to get into medical school mentality that prevails in a lot of pre-medical students is truly disheartening. I really hope that it isn't as prevalent as SDN makes it seem some times.
 
ChemEngMD said:
Maybe the reason that we continue to have shortages of PCPs in rural and inner-city underserved areas is because of med school applicants lying on their apps and claiming to want to help communities that they truly have disdain for...🙄

The whole lie, cheat, BS, and say/do anything possible to get into medical school mentality that prevails in a lot of pre-medical students is truly disheartening. I really hope that it isn't as prevalent as SDN makes it seem some times.
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I think it is that prevalent though.... People have to play the "game" instead of being honest....partly at fault of med school missions but you cant blame the schools.
 
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