URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[Cyberdyne 101]

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Could you please provide names of places in the country where racism is tolerated at an institutional level. Please also list sources. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are obviously making BROAD strokes with your claims and using no reasoning behind them.

1. The prison-industrial complex.
2. The current anti-immigrant sentiment. Many do not support sound immigration reform because they can't stand the notion of a more diverse nation/electorate. And this xenophobia is particularly egregious when it's directed at Dreamers.

 

[deleted480308]

This is such a sheltered view. You are obviously unaware of how racist and LGBT-opposed our society still is. Yes, many parts of the country are tolerant now, but many also aren't. While that famous hollywood homosexual doctor can't relate on a SES basis to that poor homosexual man, he certainly can understand the sexual discrimination he must have gone through.

The same applies to race. Our country is FAR from wiping out racism. We still live in a very racist society.

and the best way to address that some of society is racist is to make sure URM patients don't have to deal with a white/asian doctor? surely you can see that adding race to a list of considerations cannot make our society less racist

 

[deleted480308]

1. The prison-industrial complex.
2. The current anti-immigrant sentiment. Many do not support sound immigration reform because they can't stand the notion of a more diverse nation/electorate. And this xenophobia is particularly egregious when it's directed at Dreamers.

you spelled illegal immigration wrong 😉....almost no one is protesting legal immigration (for street cred purposes, I'm a citizen born abroad and my father is still a resident alien)

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

you spelled illegal immigration wrong 😉....almost no one is protesting legal immigration (for street cred purposes, I'm a citizen born abroad and my father is still a resident alien)

I reject the premise that someone who is brought to the country when they are 2 years old has done anything "illegal." You can't break the law as a toddler...

 

[deleted480308]

I reject the premise that someone who is brought to the country when they are 2 years old has done anything "illegal." You can't break the law as a toddler...

but you can break the law when you are 18 and don't leave. The country didn't create the awkward situation, that is on the parent

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

but you can break the law when you are 18 and don't leave. The country didn't create the awkward situation, that is on the parent

Oh, let me just leave the country I grew up in, went to school in, and consider home and go back to a country I've never been to and can't speak the language... And yes the country DID create the situation. We have many domestic policies that encourage the hiring of undocumented workers as well as international policies that encourage the same.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

You can't be indigenous to the continent and be illegal. That's my opinion...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

but you can break the law when you are 18 and don't leave. The country didn't create the awkward situation, that is on the parent

So don't pursue a higher education after graduating HS. Just self-deport, right?!
Especially if the "country of origin" is plagued with unknowns and uncertainties. But surely you would self-deport if you were in this position.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

Did the country create the 'awkward situation' when it had discriminatory laws that prevented me from marrying my partner and giving him residency? Should he have just gone back to his country and waited for us to take blatant bigotry out of the law?

 

[deleted480308]

You can't be indigenous to the continent and be illegal. That's my opinion...

that's illogical unless you literally don't believe in any borders at all...is that your stance?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You can't be indigenous to the continent and be illegal. That's my opinion...

And there was absolutely nothing illegal about this nation's establishment. No slavery, no crimes against Native Americans, no immigrant exploitation.
[sarcasm]

 

[deleted480308]

Did the country create the 'awkward situation' when it had discriminatory laws that prevented me from marrying my partner and giving him residency? Should he have just gone back to his country and waited for us to take blatant bigotry out of the law?

that's a different situation than the "Dreamers" and yes...the county did create that mess.

Ideally, there wouldn't be government in marriage at all and your partner would face no longer wait than someone in a straight couple or someone not married at all.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

that's a different situation than the "Dreamers" and yes...the county did create that mess.

Ideally, there wouldn't be government in marriage at all and your partner would face no longer wait than someone in a straight couple or someone not married at all.

Well, actually, he was a Dreamer. And he paid for college in cash by working multiple jobs because he couldn't get loans, and now he is adding more to the country's economy, and culture (because of his work) than the majority of those born here will.

 

[deleted480308]

Well, actually, he was a Dreamer. And he paid for college in cash by working multiple jobs because he couldn't get loans, and now he is adding more to the country's economy, and culture (because of his work) than the majority of those born here will.

then he can apply for citizenship and be a great citizen when his paperwork comes through...I like immigration so I'm all for good people applying

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

Do you know that there are immigrant detention centers that keep people for years at a time, without a hearing? They have mandated minimum occupancy levels, too. Oh, and guess what, they are private and paid for by the tax payer. Can you guess what those industry leaders lobby their congressmen to NOT do?? Pass immigration reform.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

then he can apply for citizenship and be a great citizen when his paperwork comes through...I like immigration so I'm all for good people applying

Then you should be all for some kind of immigration reform, because anyone who has ever dealt with it knows that there really is no process. You may think there is on paper, but in practical terms, it is a corrupt, bureaucratic debacle. There is no 'line' to get in.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

then he can apply for citizenship and be a great citizen when his paperwork comes through...I like immigration so I'm all for good people applying

You do realize that the system is immensely backlogged and the wait can be decades for some. The immigration process in this country is far from a "fair meritocracy."

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

DETENTION CENTERS. Filled with people of a particular class and ethnicity! We can call them illegals, undocumented, whatever you want... These are just words. When you actually look at the situation from objective eyes, we are detaining a particular class of people who live in our society. It is disgusting and shameful.

 

[deleted480308]

Then you should be all for some kind of immigration reform, because anyone who has ever dealt with it knows that there really is no process. You may think there is on paper, but in practical terms, it is a corrupt, bureaucratic debacle. There is no 'line' to get in.

There absolutely is a process. It should be faster than it is though, it took my uncle 3yrs to get his done and he was married to an American

 

[deleted480308]

You do realize that the system is immensely backlogged and the wait can be decades for some. The immigration process in this country is far from a "fair meritocracy."

let's be frank, no one would stand for immigration being a meritocracy. Keep out the laborers and the poor in order to allow a flood of tech workers, health care professionals, and PhDs from other countries?

that wouldn't last a day once the population got ahold of it

 

[deleted480308]

DETENTION CENTERS. Filled with people of a particular class and ethnicity! We can call them illegals, undocumented, whatever you want... These are just words. When you actually look at the situation from objective eyes, we are detaining a particular class of people who live in our society. It is disgusting and shameful.

I'm the forum's resident libertarian...I hate the concept of detention without speedy trial...you don't have to sell that to me

 

[MangoPlant]

Right, because people who have been mistreated in the past due to race or sexual orientation will look at a doctor who grew up poor and be able to tell that just by looking at them that they were once poor and that's going to make everything ok. That makes no sense.

Someone is onto something with the ECs. Did it ever occur to anyone that living as a black person is an experience like no other and that it counts as an EC that is given great weight. Ditto if you are an LGBT applicant who is out and living with whatever society is dishing out.

What if you're an Asian applicant living with whatever society is dishing out? Or do Asians just not count?

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

There absolutely is a process. It should be faster than it is though, it took my uncle 3yrs to get his done and he was married to an American

You just said the government shouldn't be involved with marriage and then gave an example of how people get residency with marriage. A process that is biased towards cis-gendered heterosexuals, by the way. Also a process that is highly subjective and can literally be based on the mood of the person interviewing you.

 

[deleted480308]

You just said the government shouldn't be involved with marriage and then gave an example of how people get residency with marriage. A process that is biased towards cis-gendered heterosexuals, by the way. Also a process that is highly subjective and can literally be based on the mood of the person interviewing you.

The fact that my uncle loves that woman doesn't change my stance on the concept of government marriage. I agree the government is biased and should stop. I only mentioned his marriage to highlight that even though his status speeds him up...it STILL took 3 yrs. I am agreeing with you that it takes waaaaay to long. There is a process though, a glacial and expensive one....but a process none the less.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

I'm the forum's resident libertarian...I hate the concept of detention without speedy trial...you don't have to sell that to me

You know what, I probably would be a Libertarian, except I have lived a life as minority-class person, and would be terrified of what a majority with no rule would do. Marriage equality is coming to most states from the judicial system, not from the ground up. I don't want the majority deciding how, and to whom, justice should be applied.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

The fact that my uncle loves that woman doesn't change my stance on the concept of government marriage. I agree the government is biased and should stop. I only mentioned his marriage to highlight that even though his status speeds him up...it STILL took 3 yrs. I am agreeing with you that it takes waaaaay to long. There is a process though, a glacial and expensive one....but a process none the less.

So, one that needs to be reformed.

 

[el_duderino]

Did it ever occur to anyone that living as a black person is an experience like no other and that it counts as an EC that is given great weight. Ditto if you are an LGBT applicant who is out and living with whatever society is dishing out.

This is a great point. Unfortunately that's not something people really think about.

 

[deleted480308]

What if you're an Asian applicant living with whatever society is dishing out? Or do Asians just not count?

They don't count, because a system that rewards some for their race must also detract from others...the Vietnamese patients that I see in the free clinic each week don't have the lobbying power of other URM groups so they'll need even higher stats than I do to have the same odds of getting into med school

*for the record, I think it's ridiculous but that's the system everyone on here is selling as "fair"

 

[deleted480308]

So, one that needs to be reformed.

reformed as in going to open borders or a "you sneak in long enough, and you can stay"?.....no

reformed as in dramatically shorter wait and much less expensive?....yes, I 100% agree with you

 

[deleted480308]

You know what, I probably would be a Libertarian, except I have lived a life as minority-class person, and would be terrified of what a majority with no rule would do. Marriage equality is coming to most states from the judicial system, not from the ground up. I don't want the majority deciding how, and to whom, justice should be applied.

I get that fear, it's an understandable reaction to the mess that has been our history. But you'll find most libertarians don't believe in majority rule...they believe your rights are yours regardless of how many people want to take them away

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

let's be frank, no one would stand for immigration being a meritocracy. Keep out the laborers and the poor in order to allow a flood of tech workers, health care professionals, and PhDs from other countries?

that wouldn't last a day once the population got ahold of it

"Fair and merit" are buzzwords that I often hear in these discussions as if they've uniformly applied to American history.
You didn't answer my prior question (or maybe I didn't frame it properly). Would you self-deport at age 18 if you had the the "Dreamer dilemma?" Or would you wait until after graduating from a state school with honors?

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

I get that fear, it's an understandable reaction to the mess that has been our history. But you'll find most libertarians don't believe in majority rule...they believe your rights are yours regardless of how many people want to take them away

Of course they believe that, but who guarantees those rights? If you're 3% of the population and most of the other 97% (not saying that's the case) don't like you, how do you defend yourself? How do you get a job? Go to medical school? Adopt children? Who interprets what those rights mean? Things aren't that black and white in real life. We can't just trust that everyone will 'do the right thing' because what is right and wrong are different for different people.

 

[bonnie12]

They don't count, because a system that rewards some for their race must also detract from others...the Vietnamese patients that I see in the free clinic each week don't have the lobbying power of other URM groups so they'll need even higher stats than I do to have the same odds of getting into med school

*for the record, I think it's ridiculous but that's the system everyone on here is selling as "fair"

Actually Vietnamese are considered URM at various medical schools. The definition has changed from being just African American, Native American, and etc.

 

[LizzyM]

What if you're an Asian applicant living with whatever society is dishing out? Or do Asians just not count?

Ever hear of "driving while Asian"?* Ever hear of Asians getting followed around a high end store because they are expected to be shoplifters? The experiences of blacks in America are different and something you may not even know of....

And as for the topic of the Obama girls... they are celebrities. You may think that they are high SES and therefore shouldn't get URM "advantage" but let me tell you, the fame and fortune advantage is much, much stronger than URM advantage.

*and by this, I meant, have you ever heard of Asians being pulled over by the police because they are Asians? Blacks have this experience frequently, particularly if they drive in a high SES suburb.

 

[deleted480308]

Ever hear of "driving while Asian"? Ever hear of Asians getting followed around a high end store because they are expected to be shoplifters? The experiences of blacks in America are different and something you may not even know of....

"driving while black" is a messed up and racist practice...it's the vehicular version of "I don't trust my doctor because they are white"

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

"driving while black" is a messed up and racist practice...it's the vehicular version of "I don't trust my doctor because they are white"

We all know on an intellectual level that ALL racism is wrong, but simply being aware of it doesn't changed the lived experiences of those being discriminated against and the effect that has on their lives and the perspective it brings to the classroom and doctor's office.

 

[el_duderino]

"driving while black" is a messed up and racist practice...it's the vehicular version of "I don't trust my doctor because they are white"

When you have a system where white physicians have consistently provided black people with inferior treatment for many years, it's not unreasonable to feel more comfortable with a physician who looks like you and may have experienced much of the same troubles you have.

 

[deleted480308]

When you have a system where white physicians have consistently provided black people with inferior treatment for many years, it's not unreasonable to feel more comfortable with a physician who looks like you and may have experienced much of the same troubles you have.

When you have a system where black drivers have consistently provided white officers with inferior treatment for many years, it's not unreasonable to feel more comfortable with a driver who looks like you and may have experienced much of the same troubles you have.

^do you see how bigoted those both sound? That's because they are both horrible statements and should not be used to justify institutional racism...either by officers or by patients/adcoms

 

[el_duderino]

How is it bigoted? It's a fact. Are you saying that black people and white people get the same treatment from health care providers? On a systemic level, they simply don't.

And the altered quote doesn't even make sense. Black drivers providing white officers with inferior treatment? What? Since when do drivers offer treatment to officers?

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

^do you see how bigoted those both sound? That's because they are both horrible statements and should not be used to justify institutional racism...either by officers or by patients/adcoms

It's about providing the best care for the patient. It doesn't matter if you think they are racist or not. If a patient is more likely to open up to someone they feel they can relate to and consistently come back for physicals and follow-ups, that is the primary concern, not changing them into a better person in your eyes.

 

[deleted480308]

It's about providing the best care for the patient. It doesn't matter if you think they are racist or not. If a patient is more likely to open up to someone they feel they can relate to and consistently come back for physicals and follow-ups, that is the primary concern, not changing them into a better person in your eyes.

Just for consistency purposes...if a patient comes into the county health clinic and prefers to only be seen by white staff, would you support that?

 

[plumazul]

When you have a system where black drivers have consistently provided white officers with inferior treatment for many years, it's not unreasonable to feel more comfortable with adriver who looks like you and may have experienced much of the same troubles you have.

^do you see how bigoted those both sound? That's because they are both horrible statements and should not be used to justify institutional racism...either by officers or by patients/adcoms

I bet you actually think your post makes sense.

 

[PreciousHamburgers]

Just for consistency purposes...if a patient comes into the county health clinic and prefers to only be seen by white staff, would you support that?

We aren't talking about people asking for a doctor of a particular race. We are talking about making more doctors who are not just white men. I doubt there are many black people asking to be seen by a black doctor, either.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Just for consistency purposes...if a patient comes into the county health clinic and prefers to only be seen by white staff, would you support that?

But is there ever a shortage of white doctors? Even in county clinics?

 

[Goro]

To add to my learned colleague's comments, as I have mentioned before, merit is measured not only by GPA and MCAT score, but also by the road traveled.

What hyperachievers never seem to understand is that I could kill off every pre-med who has a GPA of 3.5+ and MCAT of 33+ and then still fill every MD seat in the US with med school capable candidates.

Therefore, if a kid with a 3.1/26 MCAT can do equally well at RVU-COM or Harvard, then med school Adcoms can pick pretty much anyone they please, and it's not discriminatory.

So why is the median GPA at Harvard 3.8? Because out of all those academic clones, those acceptees have done something else exceptional. And 10% of the class have done the exceptional, without the high GPA and/or MCAT.

One more reminder: a career in Medicine is NOT a reward for getting good grades or being an A student. It's a privilege that has to be earned.

Right, because people who have been mistreated in the past due to race or sexual orientation will look at a doctor who grew up poor and be able to tell that just by looking at them that they were once poor and that's going to make everything ok. That makes no sense.

Someone is onto something with the ECs. Did it ever occur to anyone that living as a black person is an experience like no other and that it counts as an EC that is given great weight. Ditto if you are an LGBT applicant who is out and living with whatever society is dishing out.

 

[Mr Interesting]

"driving while black" is a messed up and racist practice...it's the vehicular version of "I don't trust my doctor because they are white"

Oh my God... so much ignorance.

How are the two equivalent in any way? In one case, one group is purposely being targeted by police because of their skin color. In the other, minority populations are fearful of going to the the doctor because they feel they wont be treated as human beings and get quality healthcare because of their skin color or race.

It takes time regain trust. It's unreasonable to expect minority populations to forget hundreds of years of abuse (which ended not too long ago) in such a short amount of time. We are the future generation and we can help make things better. Are the few premeds who don't get into the med school of their choice somehow more important than the millions of minority populations who suffer in pain everyday because they are afraid to go to the doctor? Are the minority populations who die because they don't have access to quality healthcare not important?

We get it, you hate the system. You and the rest of the same five other posters and troll accounts have made your point on every URM thread. No one said this system is perfect but it does accomplish the mission it has set out to accomplish whether you like it or not. The constant fussing and crying does nothing to help the issue. If you want to constantly vent your frustration then get a diary. If you want to actually do something, you are more than welcome to brainstorm / discuss ideas on how we can come up with a better system that benefits all applicants and helps address the health concerns of minority populations that are underserved.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Oh my God... so much ignorance.

How are the two equivalent in any way? In one case, one group is purposely being targeted by police because of their skin color. In the other, minority populations are fearful of going to the the doctor because they feel they wont be treated as human beings and get quality healthcare because of their skin color or race.

It takes time regain trust. It's unreasonable to expect minority populations to forget hundreds of years of abuse (which ended not too long ago) in such a short amount of time. We are the future generation and we can help make things better. Are the few premeds who don't get into the med school of their choice somehow more important than the millions of minority populations who suffer in pain everyday because they are afraid to go to the doctor? Are the minority populations who die because they don't have access to quality healthcare not important?

We get it, you hate the system. You and the rest of the same five other posters and troll accounts have made your point on every URM thread. No one said this system is perfect but it does accomplish the mission it has set out to accomplish whether you like it or not. The constant fussing and crying does nothing to help the issue. If you want to constantly vent your frustration then get a diary. If you want to actually do something, you are more than welcome to brainstorm / discuss ideas on how we can come up with a better system that benefits all applicants and helps address the health concerns of minority populations that are underserved.

If only we had a filter for false equivalences...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

To add to my learned colleague's comments, as I have mentioned before, merit is measured not only by GPA and MCAT score, but also by the road traveled.

What hyperachievers never seem to understand is that I could kill off every pre-med who has a GPA of 3.5+ and MCAT of 33+ and then still fill every MD seat in the US with med school capable candidates.

Therefore, if a kid with a 3.1/26 MCAT can do equally well at RVU-COM or Harvard, then med school Adcoms can pick pretty much anyone they please, and it's not discriminatory.

So why is the median GPA at Harvard 3.8? Because out of all those academic clones, those acceptees have done something else exceptional. And 10% of the class have done the exceptional, without the high GPA and/or MCAT.

One more reminder: a career in Medicine is NOT a reward for getting good grades or being an A student. It's a privilege that has to be earned.

This post should totally be framed.

 

[el_duderino]

*for the record, I think it's ridiculous but that's the system everyone on here is selling as "fair"

The entire system is inherently unfair due to dramatic biases all over the place.

To isolate one small portion of it and try to make that as "fair" as possible by ignoring all the biases leading up to, and following from, that single isolated point is just madness. It makes no sense at all.

Med school applications don't suddenly become "fair" if you completely ignore race when the reality is that race plays a huge part in virtually everything up to that point.

 

[el_duderino]

Also, medical school admissions is one of the few places where a concerted effort by a relatively small number of people can make a dramatic, positive nationwide difference.