URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

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But don't you guys see where this is going? What it is setting the precedent for?
What's next? Why stop at healthcare?

One could argue that all aspects of life would be more desirable, more efficient and more effective if people of the same race congregated and went about their lives separated from the other groups. Education, for example, is one field I could see being much more effective (especially at an early age) if students learned from people of the same race and cultural background. Why don't we give students the option of attending class with a teacher that is the same race as them? This involves the same issue of distrust between the races that cause problems with the recipient of the system (i.e. patients, students) but why has this thought process not infiltrated the public school system? Are you guys going to claim that your teacher's race as a kid is irrelevant?

I hope you guys remember that you're in favor of utilitarian ethics, and the next time you find yourself in a similar situation and feel like you got the short end of the stick, you'll remember this. Don't be a hypocrite.

And don't commit the slippery slope fallacy.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Womb Raider

In all honesty I am too tired right now to discuss all of the logical fallacies in every argument you present. Your idealism is driven by ignorance, and inexperience. If you think in present day, prejudice and injustices are outdate and only thing left today are "ghost stories" then it's clear with your view you would not be able to properly serve communities different from your own.

Without going into your extremist rant about separatism and segregation, I have one question. If the decades of the previous system had been producing physicians that provided quality care to immigrant and minority communities do you think they would have been underserved to begin with? Do you think their suffering would have existed to necessitate the need for current URM policies?

I mean if in all your faith of humanity, if they had been stepping up to the plate, why would we be having this conversation today? The healthcare system was dominated by whites, then whites and Asians, on all those years minority communities saw little to no change to their healthcare needs. They remained underserved and untreated. You make it sound like ORMs never had a chance. The research that has been done to show that patients have better experiences and outcomes with physicians that can understand their plight, share in cultural beliefs/traditions, speak their native tongues, etc in addition to the data that shows that minority groups are more likely to serve these needy communities is a direct result of them not receiving care from the ORMs that dominated (still dominates) the physician force. So why wouldn't any logical person say, "hey, we tried this ORMs, and upper middle class will totally understand the lives the other half lives and without a doubt go out of their way to live and work in these communities to improve their health outcomes and close the gap in quality care, but it hasn't been working! For years and years it's not working! What can we do? Oh what do you say? Research proves that minorities will likely serve minority communities and improve the healthcare they receive and make the patients' experiences better?! Well why the hell are we not actively recruiting people that can identify with the minority groups in our local communities?"

Healthcare disparities are real issues, affecting real people, causing undue suffering to specific groups. This isn't some abstract thought you throw wild hypotheticals and over reaching conclusions at. The past didn't do a good job at addressing these issues. The present attempts to do so. If you have some real and practical solutions to these issues present them. But don't hide behind some idealistic, philosophical thought of humanity being capable of perfect equality. Because it isn't. So what will you do to help the patients that got the short end of the stick, TODAY?

 

[LMBLBM]

And growing up disadvantaged in a medically underserved community will also impart a boost that the black kid from the wealthy family of physicians won't have. Who are you to speak for adcoms everywhere by saying that the fictional white kid here will be rejected in favor of the black kid?

Does government requires private organizations or educational institutes to accept certain number of individuals with socioeconomic disadvantages?

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Does government requires private organizations or educational institutes to accept certain number of individuals with socioeconomic disadvantages?

I'm sorry medical school admissions don't have quotas for accepting minorities. You confuse affirmative action with this entire argument.

 

[el_duderino]

Does government requires private organizations or educational institutes to accept certain number of individuals with socioeconomic disadvantages?

No, absolutely not.

 

[el_duderino]

Are there any systematic policies, like affirmative action, for socioeconomically disadvantaged individuals? If there is one, please tell me.

Why do you think that AMCAS has a section dedicated to whether the applicant feels he is or has been disavantaged in some way?

Disadvantaged status, just like race, is used to form a more complete picture of the applicant and give the admissions committee members more ability to accept the type of class they want to have.

 

[LMBLBM]

I'm sorry medical school admissions don't have quotas for accepting minorities. You confuse affirmative action with this entire argument.

Oops I didn't mean to sound like that. I was trying to give a case for 'systematically installed policy which gives automatic boost'. I guess that was bad example

 

[el_duderino]

Oops I didn't mean to sound like that. I was trying to give a case for 'systematically installed policy which gives automatic boost'. I guess that was bad example

I don't think there's anything such as an automatic boost. I seriously doubt if any adcoms actually view things that way. When you spend half the year picking out ~200 individuals from a pool of thousands, you can spend enough brainpower and time to consider an applicant as a whole. It's really not as simple as simply adding a few points onto an applicant's MCAT because of his skin color.

 

[allantois]

I would think that in ideal world academic institutions would practice race-blind admissions. But we all know that doesn't happen.

 

[LMBLBM]

I don't think there's anything such as an automatic boost. I seriously doubt if any adcoms actually view things that way. When you spend half the year picking out ~200 individuals from a pool of thousands, you can spend enough brainpower and time to consider an applicant as a whole. It's really not as simple as simply adding a few points onto an applicant's MCAT because of his skin color.

Well don't forget about initial screening. Some medical schools use point system to grade you. For example, 32 in MCAT gets 4 out of 5 in mcat section. And depending on your race, your whole score is multiplied by racial score. For example, .9 for Asian. My pre-health adviser, who was an ADCOM member for medical school, told me that medical schools accepting large number of application are forced to point system instead of holistic approach. I know VCU also assigns scores for your interview too.

 

[el_duderino]

And depending on your race, your whole score is multiplied by racial score. For example, .9 for Asian.

Does that actually happen? Who told you that?

 

[LMBLBM]

I would think that in ideal world academic institutions would practice race-blind admissions. But we all know that doesn't happen.

We should all wear brown bags and inhale helium gas during our interview

 

[LMBLBM]

Does that actually happen? Who told you that?

My pre-health adviser. It does not happen everywhere of course. Despite its fairness or not, It is darn speedy system for ADCOM to use

 

[LMBLBM]

Does that actually happen? Who told you that?

Think about this way. Some medical schools rank applications. However, how do you determine basket A (4 apples and 3 oranges) is better than basket B (3 apples and 4 oranges)? It gets more complicated when you have more than apples and oranges. If you assign point, like 1.5 pts for each apple and 2 pt for each orange, things get simple

 

[el_duderino]

Think about this way. Some medical schools rank applications. However, how do you determine basket A (4 apples and 3 oranges) is better than basket B (3 apples and 4 oranges)? It gets more complicated when you have more than apples and oranges. If you assign point, like 1.5 pts for each apple and 2 pt for each orange, things get simple

Yeah, making things up because they seem to make sense isn't going to work in this case.

I am skeptical of your claim about a straight-up "racial multiplier" for screening, to say the least. I'd need to hear about the existence of such a thing first-hand from an adcom before I believed that.

 

[LMBLBM]

Yeah, making things up because they seem to make sense isn't going to work in this case.

I am skeptical of your claim about a straight-up "racial multiplier" for screening, to say the least. I'd need to hear about the existence of such a thing first-hand from an adcom before I believed that.

Well, If you think that I made it up..... I don't know what to say

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Well, If you think that I made it up..... I don't know what to say

You could say here is some proof, or this is hearsay, or I just thought this made sense. Those are your three options lol

 

[allantois]

For example, .9 for Asian.

As having one Asian parent I already figured that I won't be putting that part of my demographics on the application since I don't look like one anyways. The whole idea of URM is discriminatory as it includes neither the model minority nor LGBT community. I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

The idea with He gas is terrific btw 😀

 

[el_duderino]

I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

I didn't realize that URMs were tested and graded differently in med school.

I wonder if I can sign up for the URM Step 1.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

As having one Asian parent I already figured that I won't be putting that part of my demographics on the application since I don't look like one anyways. The whole idea of URM is discriminatory as it includes neither the model minority nor LGBT community. I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

The idea with He gas is terrific btw 😀

Are you joking? One: you've never seen a black doctor... Telling fact.

You would see a black doctor and wonder if he had it easier in school? Well... That says more about you than him. Also are you under the impression that he gets to sail through medical school and residency because he belongs to a URM group? Any URM advantage is solely related to the average chance of receiving an acceptance. It has no bearing on how hard one has to work in medical school and beyond. I'd think you would be knowledgeable about this basic fact in a URM thread... I mean it isn't the first of it's kind.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

Might want to rethink this...
That's the nicest way I can put it.

 

[Cersei_Lannister]

As having one Asian parent I already figured that I won't be putting that part of my demographics on the application since I don't look like one anyways. The whole idea of URM is discriminatory as it includes neither the model minority nor LGBT community. I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

If you don't see the issues with your post, there's no hope for you at all.

 

[allantois]

Well I'm glad a lot of you guys have jumped to help me change my flawed thinking. I am sure I'm not the only person who gets this thoughts though. I've heard stories of patients walking out of a doctor's office when they saw that their doctor is black. We can all educate each other to avoid these situations.

Here's an intellectual argument:
All medical schools in Europe admit students straight out of high-school (with a few exceptions in Britain which is getting more influenced by the US system) based on almost exclusively their academic merit. Sure, the US is more diverse than any European country, but could anyone argue that healthcare of say, Germany, is worse than healthcare of the US? Well, that is certainly not the case according to any world health report.

 

[Womb Raider]

Womb Raider

In all honesty I am too tired right now to discuss all of the logical fallacies in every argument you present. Your idealism is driven by ignorance, and inexperience. If you think in present day, prejudice and injustices are outdate and only thing left today are "ghost stories" then it's clear with your view you would not be able to properly serve communities different from your own.

I think that many of the reasons young minorities distrust people dat dont look like dem is based on purely anecdotal (in some cases hyperbolic) experiences of people they know (e.g. parents). I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying it didn't happen to them personally. IN OTHER WORDS, it hasn't happened to them, but because something bad happened to their father/grandfather (or anyone of their race) xx years ago, they still feel the need to feel threatened and insecure around other races. If you are truly passionate about changing societal norms and moving forward, don't walk through life with a chip on your shoulder constantly resenting those around you and/or supporting systems of reparation that are ethically wrong (like this). Sure, there will always be asses and racist pigs, but it is a lifestyle choice to adopt this philosophy that must happen, one by one, by all of us if we are ever to get past this.

I have worked around a lot of doctors and I can't name a single one who has ever given (or I can see ever giving) a person of a different race ANY reason to distrust them. You tell me it's the physician's turn to start trusting the patient - I think they already are (not to mention, in today's society a physician WILL get fired/suspended in a split second for being racist/mistreating a patient or employee). I'm telling you I think it's up to the young generation of minorities to be the "bigger man" and take a chance trusting someone else, step outside the resentfulness of their parent's animosity, and start trusting people of different races.

I mean seriously, why are we even having this conversation? I'm not racist, I doubt you're racist. Our entire generation has been surrounded by every race imaginable growing up. We're used to it. If it weren't for the stories of our parents, and history books, we would all be frolicking through the woods together. I've been in public schools all my life. I've had friends of every ethnicity you can imagine. I've had them to my house. I've been to their houses. We get along fine. You say my idealism is driven by ignorance and inexperience, I say I've tasted what it feels like to see past color and I KNOW it's in our capacity as humans.

How do you guys expect to progress as a society, and as human beings if we can't get past the past?

Because it isn't. So what will you do to help the patients that got the short end of the stick, TODAY?

I don't understand how you can support this form of segregating healthcare without wanting to do it to all aspects of life. Why not make schools separate color to promote learning effectiveness and efficiency?

 

[The Buff OP]

Dude I quit the deads too, I've even started only doing heavy MAN shrugs once a month. My hams need some work... it might be time to give them they're own split.

Epic Chest day... the powers of Jakd compelled it

Back tomorrow with some bicep tendonitis, lifting MAN weights is certainly injury prone... PAIN = GAIN

Right on, brother.

 

[deleted480308]

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/diversityreviewevidence.pdf

The research that has been done to show that patients have better experiences.......with physicians that can understand their plight, share in cultural beliefs/traditions,

Patient satisfaction surveys are not a justification for racial discrimination in admissions

The research that has been done to show that patients have better.....outcomes with physicians that can understand their plight, share in cultural beliefs/traditions

the research doesn't actually show that

in addition to the data that shows that minority groups are more likely to serve these needy communities is a direct result of them not receiving care from the ORMs that dominated (still dominates) the physician force.

Your data hasn't shown that unless I've missed it in that paper...if I missed it, please point it out

It does say that minority doctors disproportionately choose primary care and are more likely to take medicaid and uninsured patients. Medicaid and uninsured patients are disproportionately urm populations so the economics (as opposed to the selfselection of patients, which I addressed earlier in the thread) would also be a contributing factor to more urm patients seeing urm doctors. It's also likely that minority providers being 40% less likely to be board certified (p29) is a contributing factor to them being more willing to take uninsured and medicaid patients.

Healthcare disparities are real issues, affecting real people, causing undue suffering to specific groups. This isn't some abstract thought you throw wild hypotheticals and over reaching conclusions at. The past didn't do a good job at addressing these issues. The present attempts to do so. If you have some real and practical solutions to these issues present them. But don't hide behind some idealistic, philosophical thought of humanity being capable of perfect equality. Because it isn't. So what will you do to help the patients that got the short end of the stick, TODAY?

Those patients who can't afford care (which is the real issue, not race) have a money issue and not a racial concordance with their physician issue. The racial balancing of physicians doesn't solve the plight of a poor uninsured patient, but it does add racial discrimination into a society that claims to want to end racial discrimination.

As for what I do "TODAY" to help...I work with a free health care clinic that is staffed by all volunteers. It does happen to have a large minority patient population, which is far less relevant than all the patients need help and get it.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

As having one Asian parent I already figured that I won't be putting that part of my demographics on the application since I don't look like one anyways. The whole idea of URM is discriminatory as it includes neither the model minority nor LGBT community. I haven't yet encountered an African American physician but if I did I would not be able to help myself but wonder whether they had it easier in school than other doctors.

The idea with He gas is terrific btw 😀

I'm wondering how you would view your African-American patients as a physician.
And for the record, I'm not making a "you'll make a bad doctor" comment, but your choice of words is profoundly alarming.

 

[LMBLBM]

http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/diversityreviewevidence.pdf


Patient satisfaction surveys are not a justification for racial discrimination in admissions



the research doesn't actually show that


Your data hasn't shown that unless I've missed it in that paper...if I missed it, please point it out

It does say that minority doctors disproportionately choose primary care and are more likely to take medicaid and uninsured patients. Medicaid and uninsured patients are disproportionately urm populations so the economics (as opposed to the selfselection of patients, which I addressed earlier in the thread) would also be a contributing factor to more urm patients seeing urm doctors. It's also likely that minority providers being 40% less likely to be board certified (p29) is a contributing factor to them being more willing to take uninsured and medicaid patients.



Those patients who can't afford care (which is the real issue, not race) have a money issue and not a racial concordance with their physician issue. The racial balancing of physicians doesn't solve the plight of a poor uninsured patient, but it does add racial discrimination into a society that claims to want to end racial discrimination.

As for what I do "TODAY" to help...I work with a free health care clinic that is staffed by all volunteers. It does happen to have a large minority patient population, which is far less relevant than all the patients need help and get it.

Hm.... A black patient not trusting a white physician or a white patient not trusting a black physician....


Government should mandate physicians to wear brown bags and inhale helium gas when they are confronting patients. Or Darth Vader suit will be sufficient.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Womb Raider,

In all your words of wisdom I didn't see you address the fact that ORMs have been able to serve these areas and the need is still severe.

I'm am not discussing fear, or if a white doctor will treat a black patient differently. I didn't grow up hearing ghost stories or anything of the like. I grew up in a majority Indian population, I didn't experience fascism a bit there. But within the first week of being here and in the many years since I have continually experienced it, including in the health system. Including in the typically "white" hospitals. I work in a free clinic too, I help immigrant populations of every race. But none if that is the point.

I asked you why haven't ORMs been serving these areas if they are capable of this perfect equality you are preaching? Why for decades these communities continue to suffer? And why shouldn't medical schools do something about it? Why shouldn't qualified candidates get trained to help their communities? You're not addressing the practical issues involve but keep going in your soapbox about not seeing color. In case you haven't notice I'm not too interested in the emotional arguments, just the practical solutions.

And please stop saying the majority of people feel fear/distrust/etc due to something that happened xx years ago, because in all reality you have no clue. You have no idea what anyone's fear is based off and I don't a did a behavioral study with these populations to find the root of whatever emotion they feel towards anyone. Not because you think something means it's true. And especially when you have been brought up in a starkly different life/culture your perception is already skewed. Stop committing these fallacies.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

There has been various studies posted everytime one of these threads pops up and they largely go unnoticed. I'm on a phone so it's a bit of a PITA to go find things for people at their beck and call.

But related to your comment on the immigrants. Immigrant populations are already outsiders, some are ostracized, some don't speak English, some have been here for a long time but stay in safety nets, such as ethnic neighborhoods, because it is human nature to look for security. This can be illegal and legal, with the ability to pay and without. There was a study posted before about the language/cultural barrier, patients would reveal more to a doctor that spoke their native tongue, in things that had religious and cultural norms intertwined with their physical health they were less likely to reveal important information to their physician if they were not from a similar background. In this case their health outcomes are better with same group physician, because of the trust and comfort, the physician is able to gain a full picture of their needs.

Before people go to, well those people should just learn English, those should just etc etc. We cannot ignore the health care needs of a population because their culture is different from ours. And we cannot deny that it's in the patient best interests to have options when choosing a physician and have the opportunity to find someone that will she are their perception sets.


You mention the economics of it. Okay so you basically agree ORMs will not take these populations because the pay isn't favorable. Minorities are more likely to take these positions, and you say it's related to them being less likely to be board certified. Okay... Soo?? What's your point there? They are serving these communities right? They are accepting the Medicaid and Medicare and still filing the vacancies? What are you arguing here? Maybe it's my morning brain but I'm not sure this is just a side jab or a

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Okay I can't see anything below that last sentence even on a edit. I think the app is telling me I'm typing too much lol

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Womb Raider,

In all your words of wisdom I didn't see you address the fact that ORMs have been able to serve these areas and the need is still severe.

I'm am not discussing fear, or if a white doctor will treat a black patient differently. I didn't grow up hearing ghost stories or anything of the like. I grew up in a majority Indian population, I didn't experience fascism a bit there. But within the first week of being here and in the many years since I have continually experienced it, including in the health system. Including in the typically "white" hospitals. I work in a free clinic too, I help immigrant populations of every race. But none if that is the point.

I asked you why haven't ORMs been serving these areas if they are capable of this perfect equality you are preaching? Why for decades these communities continue to suffer? And why shouldn't medical schools do something about it? Why shouldn't qualified candidates get trained to help their communities? You're not addressing the practical issues involve but keep going in your soapbox about not seeing color. In case you haven't notice I'm not too interested in the emotional arguments, just the practical solutions.

And please stop saying the majority of people feel fear/distrust/etc due to something that happened xx years ago, because in all reality you have no clue. You have no idea what anyone's fear is based off and I don't a did a behavioral study with these populations to find the root of whatever emotion they feel towards anyone. Not because you think something means it's true. And especially when you have been brought up in a starkly different life/culture your perception is already skewed. Stop committing these fallacies.

I can confirm this from my personal experiences. As a young immigrant patient (without a language barrier- if anything my Spanish needs help) I've experienced substantial detachment, cluelessness, and insensitivity from physicians.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I can confirm this from my personal experiences. As a young immigrant patient (without a language barrier- if anything my Spanish needs help) I've experienced substantial detachment, cluelessness, and insensitivity from physicians.

I have as well. Especially when I was pregnant. I would say it was particularly worse in my case with middle eastern doctors I visited. The cultural barriers are strong, with their perceptions of women. One particular doctor, I remember it was difficult for him to hide his disdain. He told me he couldn't help me, and his daughter offered to be my physician. Everyone in the practice, (nurses, MAs) were traditional Muslims. I left there within months because the tension and looks were unbearable.

Also, though English is my first language, I am fluent in Spanish, through my own efforts to learn. The clinic I work at serves a majority Latino community and I see everyday how they are initially abrasive because I look AA and they don't think I will be of any help, but when I speak in their native tongue and understand their cultural norms they completely let their guards down and welcome help.

 

[mrh125]

the BS factor about racially based admissions is that asians, Indians, and whites are expected to magically procure better MCAT scores and GPAs out of nowhere to be competitive because they're of a certain background. Now that's just stupid.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I have as well. Especially when I was pregnant. I would say it was particularly worse in my case with middle eastern doctors I visited. The cultural barriers are strong, with their perceptions of women. One particular doctor, I remember it was difficult for him to hide his disdain. He told me he couldn't help me, and his daughter offered to be my physician. Everyone in the practice, (nurses, MAs) were traditional Muslims. I left there within months because the tension and looks were unbearable.

Also, though English is my first language, I am fluent in Spanish, through my own efforts to learn. The clinic I work at serves a majority Latino community and I see everyday how they are initially abrasive because I look AA and they don't think I will be of any help, but when I speak in their native tongue and understand their cultural norms they completely let their guards down and welcome help.

Sorry you experienced that. Ppl have a tendency to over-simplify cultural barriers and their impact all the time.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

the BS factor about racially based admissions is that asians, Indians, and whites are expected to magically procure better MCAT scores and GPAs out of nowhere to be competitive because they're of a certain background. Now that's just stupid.

That's a factor of supply and demand though. LizzyM said you have to be in the top 40% of whichever group you belong to.

No one said this system is perfect, because in order for it to be perfect everyone that wants to be a doctor should be able to be a doctor. That's the only non-discriminatory way to go about it. But that's now reality. Do how do we address the vote issues in a manner that you think is better than the current one. Because the methods before it didn't work and caused other groups to suffer as well.

 

[mrh125]

That's a factor of supply and demand though. LizzyM said you have to be in the top 40% of whichever group you belong to.

No one said this system is perfect, because in order for it to be perfect everyone that wants to be a doctor should be able to be a doctor. That's the only non-discriminatory way to go about it. But that's now reality. Do how do we address the vote issues in a manner that you think is better than the current one. Because the methods before it didn't work and caused other groups to suffer as well.

so what happens if you decline to state your race? i'm guessing those with the best test scores would just succeed and roll over everyone. I really wish more subjectivity could be taken into account in this process (e.g. mental health and a million other kinds of diversity). Going off of mcat and gpa alone is substantially flawed (what's even more flawed is that the 2015 mcat claims it'll test your empathy. wtf lol), factoring in ethnicity is a bit less flawed because it factors in subjectivity, but still flawed nonetheless. I absolutely detest the med school admissions process but solutions are hard to come by as you said.

 

[mrh125]

That's a factor of supply and demand though. LizzyM said you have to be in the top 40% of whichever group you belong to.

No one said this system is perfect, because in order for it to be perfect everyone that wants to be a doctor should be able to be a doctor. That's the only non-discriminatory way to go about it. But that's now reality. Do how do we address the vote issues in a manner that you think is better than the current one. Because the methods before it didn't work and caused other groups to suffer as well.

Furthermore, I really can't stand stand struggling to get a 29 on the mcat and being unable to break a 30 due to reasons I can't put on the application (mental health) , my own intellectual level, a shoddy educational background (substandard dangerous hs that i wasn't prepared for and commuted across my state to five different counties to take classes I needed. not to mention i became the only person in my family with a college education), and being incredibly discouraged because my racial demographic happens to do better on the mcat than others so my individual experiences aren't taken into account and finding myself being backed into a corner with no other options besides being yelled at to retake the mcat and "enjoy DO/Caribbean and a future in primary care" or retake the MCAT again after I put 7 months of consistent study into it (up to 10 hrs days a lot of the time). Yet if a URM with the same socioeconomic background or better than mine gets a 26 they're told they're fine for MD schools and don't get yelled at and discouraged for their scores. I have nothing against URMs. I'm fervently against what happens to people like myself in this application process and there should be some level of equalization. It'd be one thing if I was an ivy leaguer with a wealthy family w/o my own issues who had an upbringing filled with private tutors and help was always within reach, but that's not the case for me and no amount of effort I put into other aspects of my application can equalize this for people like me. What is your response to that?

I have nothing against URM status, in the process raise gets tangled in it to it and its more difficult for certain demographics than others based off of the information we are given. if there are levels of equalization i'm curious to know. Why should an individual having to compete with what people of his own race score, when there are far more indicators on an individual level that should be accounted for (short answer is probably because it's simple and doing so would probably be more subjective and get people even madder)?

 

[el_duderino]

I think that if you're genuinely putting months of study into the MCAT and getting a 29, then you're just really not great at standardized tests for whatever reason. It's no big deal. 29 isn't at all a bad score and thousands of people go to MD and DO programs with those sorts of scores. Standardized tests aren't the real world. Do as well as you can and make up for it in other ways (GPA, ECs, experience, humanity).

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Furthermore, I really can't stand stand struggling to get a 29 on the mcat and being unable to break a 30 due to reasons I can't put on the application (mental health) , my own intellectual level, a shoddy educational background (substandard dangerous hs that i wasn't prepared for and commuted across my state to five different counties to take classes I needed. not to mention i became the only person in my family with a college education), and being incredibly discouraged because my racial demographic happens to do better on the mcat than others so my individual experiences aren't taken into account and finding myself being backed into a corner with no other options besides being yelled at to retake the mcat and "enjoy DO/Caribbean and a future in primary care" or retake the MCAT again after I put 7 months of consistent study into it (up to 10 hrs days a lot of the time). Yet if a URM with the same socioeconomic background or better than mine gets a 26 they're told they're fine for MD schools and don't get yelled at and discouraged for their scores. I have nothing against URMs. I'm fervently against what happens to people like myself in this application process and there should be some level of equalization. It'd be one thing if I was an ivy leaguer with a wealthy family w/o my own issues who had an upbringing filled with private tutors and help was always within reach, but that's not the case for me and no amount of effort I put into other aspects of my application can equalize this for people like me. What is your response to that?

I have nothing against URM status, in the process raise gets tangled in it to it and its more difficult for certain demographics than others based off of the information we are given. if there are levels of equalization i'm curious to know. Why should an individual having to compete with what people of his own race score, when there are far more indicators on an individual level that should be accounted for (short answer is probably because it's simple and doing so would probably be more subjective and get people even
madder)?

If your socioeconomic background was a factor in you preparation to lack of for standardized testing. For example a severely lacking education system in high school, physical dangers that inhibited you from being able to reach various levels of achievement then I would make sure you highlight those things in your application. People who had significant adversity to overcome get the chance to elaborate on them and I wouldn't take that lightly. Make sure you present your case as it relates to who you are now. When people say you don't have a chance because you are white with XX MCAT score they don't take into account any other factors. Your chances of acceptance are not solely based on those scores and if you have had an especially hard upbringing you will very likely be looked upon in a different light. Many ORMs far below average stats get it before those with stellar stats because everyone is evaluated by the context of their achievements and experiences. It isn't a sum all process.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

I think that if you're genuinely putting months of study into the MCAT and getting a 29, then you're just really not great at standardized tests for whatever reason. It's no big deal. 29 isn't at all a bad score and thousands of people go to MD and DO programs with those sorts of scores. Standardized tests aren't the real world. Do as well as you can and make up for it in other ways (GPA, ECs, experience, humanity).

Exactly. For example if your ECs show a commitment to immigrant and minority populations you would definitely see acceptances from hbcu's. Though n=1 I know someone, East Indian, at Howard. He had a middle class upbringing and no hinder axe to success due to economic or mental factors, he simply just wasn't able to get high test scores. But he got a lot of love from the HBCU's because he had a long term commitment to minority communities. (Also went to Howard as an undergrad, and prob got in due to the same proven commitment)

But this can be applied to any schools mission, Jesuit schools, primary care focused, etc.

It maybe you have a strong research background, or practical experience in healthcare that is valuable. Point is there are many factors beyond MCAT scores that you can showcase your strengths.

 

[LMBLBM]

Furthermore, I really can't stand stand struggling to get a 29 on the mcat and being unable to break a 30 due to reasons I can't put on the application (mental health) , my own intellectual level, a shoddy educational background (substandard dangerous hs that i wasn't prepared for and commuted across my state to five different counties to take classes I needed. not to mention i became the only person in my family with a college education), and being incredibly discouraged because my racial demographic happens to do better on the mcat than others so my individual experiences aren't taken into account and finding myself being backed into a corner with no other options besides being yelled at to retake the mcat and "enjoy DO/Caribbean and a future in primary care" or retake the MCAT again after I put 7 months of consistent study into it (up to 10 hrs days a lot of the time). Yet if a URM with the same socioeconomic background or better than mine gets a 26 they're told they're fine for MD schools and don't get yelled at and discouraged for their scores. I have nothing against URMs. I'm fervently against what happens to people like myself in this application process and there should be some level of equalization. It'd be one thing if I was an ivy leaguer with a wealthy family w/o my own issues who had an upbringing filled with private tutors and help was always within reach, but that's not the case for me and no amount of effort I put into other aspects of my application can equalize this for people like me. What is your response to that?

I have nothing against URM status, in the process raise gets tangled in it to it and its more difficult for certain demographics than others based off of the information we are given. if there are levels of equalization i'm curious to know. Why should an individual having to compete with what people of his own race score, when there are far more indicators on an individual level that should be accounted for (short answer is probably because it's simple and doing so would probably be more subjective and get people even madder)?

You see how rainbow has even distribution of color and it is pleasing to see? By making an individual compete with other individuals who are within his own race group, people get to see pretty rainbow.

 

[amazing tekkers]

Well I'm glad a lot of you guys have jumped to help me change my flawed thinking. I am sure I'm not the only person who gets this thoughts though. I've heard stories of patients walking out of a doctor's office when they saw that their doctor is black. We can all educate each other to avoid these situations.

Here's an intellectual argument:
All medical schools in Europe admit students straight out of high-school (with a few exceptions in Britain which is getting more influenced by the US system) based on almost exclusively their academic merit. Sure, the US is more diverse than any European country, but could anyone argue that healthcare of say, Germany, is worse than healthcare of the US? Well, that is certainly not the case according to any world health report.

from you post, schools accept urm = **** health care

 

[amazing tekkers]

This thread is disturbing

 

[WhittyPsyche]

You see how rainbow has even distribution of color and it is pleasing to see? By making an individual compete with other individuals who are within his own race group, people get to see pretty rainbow.

Why did you create this thread? It seems you aren't interested in any intellectual conversation it possible solutions to any problems presented only to interject with asinine commentary. Seriously do better.

 

[LMBLBM]

Why did you create this thread? It seems you aren't interested in any intellectual conversation it possible solutions to any problems presented only to interject with asinine commentary. Seriously do better.

I do agree that last quote has nothing do with it. If you read from page one or two, I commented that I found my answer. It is common agreement that URM policy is racial discrimination. Whether it is good or bad, whether it is helpful or not helpful to the society with live in and whether discrimination to end discrimination is helpful is justified or not, those can't be argued in this simple thread. Even though I do disagree with URM policy. However I do agree that race factor should be considered along with socioeconomic factor. I just don't think that it should be on our medical application

 

[LMBLBM]

Why did you create this thread? It seems you aren't interested in any intellectual conversation it possible solutions to any problems presented only to interject with asinine commentary. Seriously do better.

Btw, I did not seek solution to start with. There is no short term solution for race inequality except for URM policy. I just wanted talk about the idea behind it. Sometime, wrong answer can serve as an answer to a problem. Labor shortage in ancient time was solved by hideous solution called slavery. We are living in a era of global liberalism. No matter how wrong is it, if society supports it, you can't change it. I did not seek alternative solution firsthand

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Btw, I did not seek solution to start with. There is no short term solution for race inequality except for URM policy. I just wanted talk about the idea behind it. Sometime, wrong answer can serve as an answer to a problem. Labor shortage in ancient time was solved by hideous solution called slavery. We are living in a era of global liberalism. No matter how wrong is it, if society supports it, you can't change it. I did not seek alternative solution firsthand

Sorry it wasn't a labor shortage. It was simply how can we get exponential gains with zero costs and no sacrifice of our kind. Again, kidnapping, oppression, torture, murder, and slavery has no ground of justification. Nice try though, again false equivalencies doesn't fool anyone on here.

But making flaming comments does nothing to contribute even if you don't think this thread can solve anything it still doesn't warrant ignorance or trying to upset any partakers in the conversation. That's just simple etiquette. Mutual respect and pleasant exchange isn't too much to ask of future professionals.

 

[Womb Raider]

Take a chill pill Whitty, or like I always say: go have a beer. No one is upset here but you. LMBLBM's post isn't trying to upset anyone.

Try to relax, sheesh.

The only thing worse than a troll is someone who gets all worked up and their panties in a wad over their post.

(I'm not calling you a troll LMB)

 

[deleted480308]

Sorry it wasn't a labor shortage. It was simply how can we get exponential gains with zero costs and no sacrifice of our kind. Again, kidnapping, oppression, torture, murder, and slavery has no ground of justification. Nice try though, again false equivalencies doesn't fool anyone on here.

But making flaming comments does nothing to contribute even if you don't think this thread can solve anything it still doesn't warrant ignorance or trying to upset any partakers in the conversation. That's just simple etiquette. Mutual respect and pleasant exchange isn't too much to ask of future professionals.

I have to roll with whitty on this one.....how can someone say that any racial discrimination is wrong in admissions and it was somehow the "right call" to have slavery?!?!?

It's all just wrong, unequivocally wrong