URM Effects

[TurboTegGirl]

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I noticed on another board (possibly non-trad board) a person posted their stats, and asked about applying with Early Decision. Another poster told them not to apply to an EDP with those particular stats, unless they were a URM. Is the effect of being an URM really that "beneficial?" Can it really make your less than average stats look that much more competitive? Or would this only be true to specific schools? 😕

 

[JRJ26]

if you do a search, you will probably see dozens of threads on this topic. I'm sure many don't want to see another one of these threads because they never end well.

 

[jsnuka]

If you check out the MSAR, you will notice that those schools that participate in EDP explicitly state what discriminators that schools is looking for in an ED applicant. To apply to one of those schools (knowing that you cannot apply to any other medical schools until you are rejected by that school and that responses do not go out until October) is foolish. You would be putting yourself behind the proverbial 8 ball in applying to other schools.

It makes more sense to apply broadly and EARLY to any school you are interested in attending and you feel is a good match for you.

If it is your state school and you REALLY desire to attend that school and that school only then apply EDP and let it ride. To apply EDP for any other school with some reasonable assurances would limit your acceptance possibilities.

There are a number of threads on this topic on SDN. Do a search for EDP acceptances or something that fits what you are asking and see what you comes up.

Good luck to you wherever you are in the process!!!

 

[QofQuimica]

I noticed on another board (possibly non-trad board) a person posted their stats, and asked about applying with Early Decision. Another poster told them not to apply to an EDP with those particular stats, unless they were a URM. Is the effect of being an URM really that "beneficial?" Can it really make your less than average stats look that much more competitive? Or would this only be true to specific schools? 😕

No. If your stats are below average, they are still going to look below average whether you are a URM or a non-URM. All medical schools want to recruit a diverse class of qualified students who are academically capable of making it through the rigorous medical school program. Your goals should be to make your application as competitive as possible and to prepare yourself academically to succeed in medical school, no matter what race you are. Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[TurboTegGirl]

I felt the same way about it as Q. It was more of an opinion question than anything. I know I have a long, hard road ahead of me, no matter what!

 

[DoctaJay]

Applying as a URM does confer some advantages when you apply, because medical schools care about increasing the diversity of practicing physicians and providing healthcare to all Americans, which yields many many positive results.The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002) and Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000) and Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995). But this advantage only goes so far, and the extent that it helps is overly exaggerated among the gunner culture of SDN. It certainly does not apply for EDP programs, and after the case in Michigan, the advantage is dying out in many states. So with that being said; rock your MCATs, never score below a B, do something non-academic that you are truly passionate about, and you should fair well in the application process, whether you are black, white, green, purple, etc.

 

[QofQuimica]

I felt the same way about it as Q. It was more of an opinion question than anything. I know I have a long, hard road ahead of me, no matter what!

Assuming that you are not applying with disadvantaged status, I think that URMs who have stellar or above average stats have a much bigger competitiveness advantage versus average or below-average URMs. Most if not all schools actively work to recruit the top URM applicants. 🙂

 

[MDHopeful2009]

Applying as a URM does confer some advantages when you apply, because medical schools care about increasing the diversity of practicing physicians and providing healthcare to all Americans, which yields many many positive results.The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002) and Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000) and Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995). But this advantage only goes so far, and the extent that it helps is overly exaggerated among the gunner culture of SDN. It certainly does not apply for EDP programs, and after the case in Michigan, the advantage is dying out in many states. So with that being said; rock your MCATs, never score below a B, do something non-academic that you are truly passionate about, and you should fair well in the application process, whether you are black, white, green, purple, etc.

"If you're a black or, to a lesser degree, Hispanic applicant, your chances of being admitted to medical school are far greater than whites or Asians with the same college grades and Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) scores. At the University of Washington School of Medicine in 1997, the odds ratio of a black applicant being admitted over a white with the same grades and MCAT scores were nearly 30-to-1. At the State University of New York, Brooklyn, the odds were nearly 23-to-1 in 1996 and were 9-to-1 in 1999. At the University of Maryland in 1999, they were 21-to-1, and at the University of Georgia in 1996, they were 19-to-1. At Michigan State University College of Human Medicine they were 12-to-1 in 1997 and 14-to-1 in 1999. "



http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/chavez062101.asp

 

[flaahless]

Hahaha, are you serious man? We read that article in my Ethnic Experience class. It's funny how she makes it seem like med schools are admitting idiots. If the students were not qualified to enter med school, they wouldn't have been admitted. That's the problem that we face today, there are too many qualified individuals for too few spots. Have you ever read the admissions requirements at Harvard, UCLA or Yale. It doesn't state that you must have a 4.0 and a 38, that's just who they tend to accept. The "qualifications" are far below that. Also, we all know there is far more to an applicant than mere numbers, that's why universities adopt the "wholistic approach" to evaluating applicants. I also find it funny how people think urms are taking up all the seats in a med school class. When they actually average 15 or fewer per med school. Some schools have none.

 

[BerkReviewTeach]

Applying as a URM does confer some advantages when you apply, because medical schools care about increasing the diversity of practicing physicians and providing healthcare to all Americans, which yields many many positive results.The Case for Diversity in the Health Care Workforce, 21 Health Aff. 90, 94 (2002) and Do Patients Choose Physicians of Their Own Race?, 19 Health Aff. 76, 77 (2000) and Physician Race and Care of Minority and Medically Indigent Patients, 273 JAMA 1515, 1517 (1995). But this advantage only goes so far, and the extent that it helps is overly exaggerated among the gunner culture of SDN. It certainly does not apply for EDP programs, and after the case in Michigan, the advantage is dying out in many states. So with that being said; rock your MCATs, never score below a B, do something non-academic that you are truly passionate about, and you should fair well in the application process, whether you are black, white, green, purple, etc.

Does that mean even Barney has a chance with the right numbers?

Seriously, your post is absolutely eloquent and brilliant.

The $0.02 I'd like to add is that an applicant is chosen based on more than just purely numbers. There are many cases of people with great numbers not being accepted because they have no clinical experience, are bad with people, or that their numbers are padded. I didn't read the article refernced by a previous poster with the acceptance ratios based on whatever he or she referred to as numbers, but I fully assume it didn't take into account interview performance, clinical hours, and applicant passion and sincerity.

 

[UnderdogMD]

Has anybody have/found the average GPA/MCAT of accepted URM students vs. the average GPA/MCAT of accepted non-urm students. I have been curious about this data for some time and always wondered how much advantage 'quantitatively' there really is.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Has anybody have/found the average GPA/MCAT of accepted URM students vs. the average GPA/MCAT of accepted non-urm students. I have been curious about this data for some time and always wondered how much advantage 'quantitatively' there really is.

This is posted on the AAMC website. The differences between the two groups are significant.

From what I see on the interview invite threads, it appears that being a URM confers significant advantages. It appears that URMs get put in a separate pile altogether since many URMs have gotten invites just 1-5 days after being complete at most of their schools. This leads me to think that they belong to a separate pool from the rest of the applicants.

I have always said, being a URM helps A LOT on an individual basis. But, it doesn't hurt the ORM's as a group because URMs make up such a small proportion of the medical school population. The "minority stole my spot" argument will never hold any water.

 

[flaahless]

From what I see on the interview invite threads, it appears that being a URM confers significant advantages. It appears that URMs get put in a separate pile altogether since many URMs have gotten invites just 1-5 days after being complete at most of their schools. This leads me to think that they belong to a separate pool from the rest of the applicants.

Look playa. I've been pretty successful in my application to med school. I have 10 invites with not so stellar stats. However, if you want to know why schools have offered me so many interviews, read my personal statement and my letters of rec. Don't just assume that being URM conferred some type of significant advantage by placing me in a "special" applicant pool.

 

[DoctaJay]

Look playa. I've been pretty successful in my application to med school. I have 10 invites with not so stellar stats. However, if you want to know why schools have offered me so many interviews, read my personal statement and my letters of rec. Don't just assume that being URM conferred some type of significant advantage by placing me in a "special" applicant pool.

Don't get pulled into a convo about whether your URM status helped you because at this point it doesn't matter. People on SDN have long standing beliefs which won't be changed through dicussion. Just be thankful for your sucess in the app process and get ready to ace these interviews! In the end, what helped you get in (parental connections, being URM, being ORM, being an athlete, being a nurse, having a PhD, etc.) doesn't matter. What matters is that you are in, and that you study hard to become a doc. Trust me when i say that childish talks about URMs doesn't occur in medical school because everyone is too busy studying. So yeah, don't get sucked into the convo.

 

[QofQuimica]

Don't get pulled into a convo about whether your URM status helped you because at this point it doesn't matter. People on SDN have long standing beliefs which won't be changed through dicussion. Just be thankful for your sucess in the app process and get ready to ace these interviews! In the end, what helped you get in (parental connections, being URM, being ORM, being an athlete, being a nurse, having a PhD, etc.) doesn't matter. What matters is that you are in, and that you study hard to become a doc. Trust me when i say that childish talks about URMs doesn't occur in medical school because everyone is too busy studying. So yeah, don't get sucked into the convo.

Agree. Medical schools are not charities, and adcoms don't admit people who they think will bomb out of the program and/or flunk the boards. Averages are just that, averages. When my classmates and I started medical school, we were all above average in some respects and below it in others. In the long run, each of us will be better off if we focus on improving ourselves rather than looking at how much greener the grass is in other people's pastures.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Look playa. I've been pretty successful in my application to med school. I have 10 invites with not so stellar stats. However, if you want to know why schools have offered me so many interviews, read my personal statement and my letters of rec. Don't just assume that being URM conferred some type of significant advantage by placing me in a "special" applicant pool.

I don't care about your interview invites as they don't affect me (read the last paragraph of my post again).

However, I stand by my hypothesis that URMs are put in a separate pile. Look at some of the posts on the pre-Allo forum. URM's get auto invites from top schools (Pittsburgh, Michigan) with 3.3, 29-30's before submitting their secondaries. The rest of the applicants need 3.8, 35 numbers to secure those auto invites. How else would you explain URM getting interview invites at top schools just a few days after being complete? URM's get special treatment in the admissions process. That's just a fact. This thread asks about the advantages of being a URM and I answered that question. I'm trying to help the OP (who I assume is a URM) make an informed decision about her chances in this process. This isn't a debate about AA nor am I saying that you are underqualified.

Congrats on the invites, by the way. If I come off as bitter, then I apologize. I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

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[bellacnella]

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[LovelyMD]

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[flaahless]

I don't care about your interview invites as they don't affect me (read the last paragraph of my post again).

However, I stand by my hypothesis that URMs are put in a separate pile. Look at some of the posts on the pre-Allo forum. URM's get auto invites from top schools (Pittsburgh, Michigan) with 3.3, 29-30's before submitting their secondaries. The rest of the applicants need 3.8, 35 numbers to secure those auto invites. How else would you explain URM getting interview invites at top schools just a few days after being complete? URM's get special treatment in the admissions process. That's just a fact. This thread asks about the advantages of being a URM and I answered that question. I'm trying to help the OP (who I assume is a URM) make an informed decision about her chances in this process. This isn't a debate about AA nor am I saying that you are underqualified.

Congrats on the invites, by the way. If I come off as bitter, then I apologize. I'm just trying to call it as I see it.

Dawg, are you getting all your info from MDapps profiles? If so, I'm sure you know how fabricated, fraudulent and fallible those can be. So please, reserve your judgment and refrain from making your hypotheses until you actually see it for real. How many URM profiles have you seen/read, 10 maybe? I'll even give you 100. There are 3000+ URM applicants, and for your to make such asinine conclusions based on a ridiculously small sample size is just dumb.

Thanks on the congrats and good luck in the app process.

 

[LovelyMD]

Dawg, are you getting all your info from MDapps profiles? If so, I'm sure you know how fabricated, fraudulent and fallible those can be. So please, reserve your judgment and refrain from making your hypotheses until you actually see it for real. How many URM profiles have you seen/read, 10 maybe? I'll even give you 100. There are 3000+ URM applicants, and for your to make such asinine conclusions based on a ridiculously small sample size is just dumb.

Thanks on the congrats and good luck in the app process.

I think he was getting it from the interview invite thread, although I think I can count the # of URMs that post their invites in those thread on *maybe* 2 hands. However, if he's "calling it like he sees it," he has to adjust his glasses because I'm the ONLY URM that posted in that thread with a Michigan invite before completion, and I have a 3.5/38, not 3.3/29-30. (Can't speak on Pittsburgh as I only pay attention to schools to which I applied). If I knew my invite would be subject to attack, I wouldn't have posted it, or any of my other invites, in those threads. Oh well, too late now...

 

[BigRedPremed]

I think he was getting it from the interview invite thread, although I think I can count the # of URMs that post their invites in those thread on *maybe* 2 hands. However, if he's "calling it like he sees it," he has to adjust his glasses because I'm the ONLY URM that posted in that thread with a Michigan invite before completion, and I have a 3.5/38, not 3.3/29-30. (Can't speak on Pittsburgh as I only pay attention to schools to which I applied). If I knew my invite would be subject to attack, I wouldn't have posted it, or any of my other invites, in those threads. Oh well, too late now...

I fail to see how saying that you got an auto invite from UMich with a 3.5/38 qualifies as an "attack." There was an entire thread on Upitt auto invites from URM's. Some of them had GPA's below 3.5. Again, I don't see how saying that URM's are held to lower standards qualifies as an "attack." Do you think you were the only URM to get an auto invite from Michigan with a 3.5?

I am making no judgements as to whether AA is right or wrong. I am making no judgements as to whether you or any other URM are underqualified. I am answering the answer posed by the original poster, which is: What advantages are there to being a URM in the admissions process? The fact that you took my post as an "attack" reflects your own insecurity about your invites.

 

[LovelyMD]

I fail to see how saying that you got an auto invite from UMich with a 3.5/38 qualifies as an "attack." There was an entire thread on Upitt auto invites from URM's. Some of them had GPA's below 3.5. Again, I don't see how saying that URM's are held to lower standards qualifies as an "attack." Do you think you were the only URM to get an auto invite from Michigan with a 3.5?

I am making no judgements as to whether AA is right or wrong. I am making no judgements as to whether you or any other URM are underqualified. I am answering the answer posed by the original poster, which is: What advantages are there to being a URM in the admissions process? The fact that you took my post as an "attack" reflects your own insecurity about your invites.

Actually, you said that people received invites from Pitt and Michigan with 3.3, 29-30's, and I was refuting that argument. Gotta get your data straight... if you meant Pitt, you should've just said Pitt. And I'm just about the only URM posting in the interview invite thread with invites at top schools (minus Pitt, which does auto stuff) within days of becoming complete. So yes, it looks like you're talking about ME. And honey, I have 10 invites, what do I have to be insecure about???

But I'm going to take DoctaJay's advice and leave this alone... this thread was answered by the 6th post...

 

[person2004]

The "minority stole my spot" argument will never hold any water.

That isn't entirely true. Many medical schools have a wait list and some rank their wait lists. If you are in the top several people on a wait list then the 'minority (or legacy) stole my spot' is a valid argument.
In other cases, even if you usual can't identify WHO would have had the spot if racist admissions policies were abolished, you can definitely say that SOMEONE was screwed over by every AA admit.
If AA admits had to sit down with those passed over and compare applications, then I think they would be ashamed. This doesn't happen of course and they can keep lying to themselves about 'whole applicant' as if URMs are superior applicants in every way other than grades and test scores despite a complete lack of evidence that this is the case. They'll just keep lying to themselves until the racist policies end though.

 

[person2004]

Actually, you said that people received invites from Pitt and Michigan with 3.3, 29-30's, and I was refuting that argument. Gotta get your data straight... if you meant Pitt, you should've just said Pitt. And I'm just about the only URM posting in the interview invite thread with invites at top schools (minus Pitt, which does auto stuff) within days of becoming complete. So yes, it looks like you're talking about ME. And honey, I have 10 invites, what do I have to be insecure about???

But I'm going to take DoctaJay's advice and leave this alone... this thread was answered by the 6th post...

I don't see how getting 10 possibly racial motivated invites is better than 1. It doesn't prove that you earned them, just that the discrimination in your favor is pervasive. Of course only you know how strong you application is. For all I know they were all earned. Odds are against that though. I'm sure you know the truth, good or bad, deep down.

 

[DoctaJay]

This UIH forum is not the place for discussions about affirmative action and if the thread continues to veer off track it will have to be closed.

 

[flaahless]

I fail to see how saying that you got an auto invite from UMich with a 3.5/38 qualifies as an "attack." There was an entire thread on Upitt auto invites from URM's. Some of them had GPA's below 3.5. Again, I don't see how saying that URM's are held to lower standards qualifies as an "attack." Do you think you were the only URM to get an auto invite from Michigan with a 3.5?

I am making no judgements as to whether AA is right or wrong. I am making no judgements as to whether you or any other URM are underqualified. I am answering the answer posed by the original poster, which is: What advantages are there to being a URM in the admissions process? The fact that you took my post as an "attack" reflects your own insecurity about your invites.

Dawg. No one is even bringing up AA. You're just assuming it's being enforced and using it to explain the good fortune of a few URMs. Think about it. Do you honestly believe AA is the reason some URMs have been given Auto-invites at UMICH! Come on man! Think about it. Out of all the schools, MICHIGAN! It's kinda ridiculous. Now with Pitt, I simply believe you are so preoccupied with AA that you're irrationally applying it to situations in which your only proof is a thread on an anonymous forum. Get real.

 

[flaahless]

I don't see how getting 10 possibly racial motivated invites is better than 1. It doesn't prove that you earned them, just that the discrimination in your favor is pervasive. Of course only you know how strong you application is. For all I know they were all earned. Odds are against that though. I'm sure you know the truth, good or bad, deep down.

Are you serious? You're stupid.

 

[freelove]

Think about it. Do you honestly believe AA is the reason some URMs have been given Auto-invites at UMICH! Come on man! Think about it. Out of all the schools, MICHIGAN!

LMAO!!! For some reason this is so ridiculously funny to me. I think its the capital letters...

I am going to facebook quote you, flaahless.

 

[QofQuimica]

This thread has stayed off track in spite of the moderator's request that people get back on topic. Closing.