URM Filipino

[coolio24567]

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You'll be better off knocking on every single med school building in the country to preach this issue than trying to convince people on SDN that what you're saying makes sense. You're so hung up on technicalities that you fail to realize that med schools don't care enough to listen to every single special snowflake who claims such and such just to have an edge over other premeds. Asia is a big a** continent and obviously there's a ton of distinct looks and cultures. Indians and East Asians belong in the same category despite being vastly different, Filipinos are not the exception.

Except that URM document I showed you says they are moving away from the 4 major groups. Indians and Chinese people can advocate medical schools to do the same analyses to see if they're underrepresented, but like I said before I'll pay you 100 bucks for each region they're underrepresented in.
And at least one person with connections to MD admissions has replied to this thread, so there's potentially many more who read without posting. I know professors and med school staff frequent these forums. I'm not shouting to deaf ears. People read this.

 

[Lucca]

You really need evidence to show that Filipinos are more likely to seek out Filipino doctors? They have their own language, that should be evidence enough. Filipinos who only speak Tagalog can only be treated by doctors who speak it.

Yes you need evidence. There is evidence for the other URM groups so there should be for Filipinos as well. Can you prove to me that there is a need for tagalog speaking physicians in filipino concentrated areas where filipino physicians are not already present? Filipinos have been spreading around the world for a long time. There are now more filipinos outside of the Philippines than there are in them. There was no mass movement event. I would be willing to venture that most Filipinos in the US - unlike many hispanic groups in Cali and Mexico and NY - are second generation or already speak English. If you can show me that there is a single region in this country with a significant concentration of tagalog-speaking patient population that is not already being served by an adequate concentration of Tagalog speaking, Filipino physicians that is not already being regionally considered then I will concede that some regions should re-evaluate their URM policies. This is the burden of proof required for hispanic populations, if you want to be URM it's time to start meeting the same standards.

Edit: also, every clinic is equipped with translation equipment/services so it is not necessary that the physician speak a language in order for the patient to be treated, however having a same-language physician is generally preferred across the board and immigrants especially like being seen by doctors they have something in common with.

 

[coolio24567]

Yes you need evidence. There is evidence for the other URM groups so there should be for Filipinos as well. Can you prove to me that there is a need for tagalog speaking physicians in filipino concentrated areas where filipino physicians are not already present? Filipinos have been spreading around the world for a long time. There are now more filipinos outside of the Philippines than there are in them. There was no mass movement event. I would be willing to venture that most Filipinos in the US - unlike many hispanic groups in Cali and Mexico and NY - are second generation or already speak English. If you can show me that there is a single region in this country with a significant concentration of tagalog-speaking patient population that is not already being served by an adequate concentration of Tagalog speaking, Filipino physicians that is not already being regionally considered then I will concede that some regions should re-evaluate their URM policies. This is the burden of proof required for hispanic populations, if you want to be URM it's time to start meeting the same standards.

Some medical schools classify them as URM already, so that argument is irrelevant. I'm asking for other medical schools to do the same analyses these schools have done to determine if Filipinos are regionally URM. Read up if you don't know what I'm referring to.

 

[Lucca]

Some medical schools classify them as URM already, so that argument is irrelevant. I'm asking for other medical schools to do the same analyses these schools have done. Read up if you don't know what I'm referring to.

The argument is not irrelevant. If you want other schools to do it you must prove what I described exists outside of the areas where it is already being done.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Once again someone assumes I'm doing this for personal gain. ASSUMES.

Filipinos are vastly different from other Asian groups. They have a distinct look, culture and language. The revised definition of URM seen on
https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf
shows that it was meant to steer away from the classic 4 groups of "Asian, black, white, Hispanic"

Once again someone posted an ignorant statement before reading everything.

You don't think people from distant regions in China or Africa have distinct characteristics, that can easily set them apart from others. Filipinos are not special. Race is culturally created and unscientific; there is a reason there are 4-6 major categories (to lump large heterogeneous groups who share superficial characteristics like hair color, eye color, and height). Replace the word they in your second sentence with Salvadorians, Zambians, Swedes, or Aborigines.

 

[coolio24567]

You don't think people from distant regions in China or Africa have distinct characteristics, that can easily set them apart from others. Filipinos are not special. Race is culturally created and unscientific; there is a reason there are 4-6 major categories (to lump large heterogeneous groups who share superficial characteristics like hair color, eye color, and height). Replace the word they in your second sentence with Salvadorians, Zambians, Swedes, or Aborigines.

And the URM document I posted clearly states the AAMC is moving away from the classic 4 groups. Read before posting people.

 

[coolio24567]

The argument is not irrelevant. If you want other schools to do it you must prove what I described exists outside of the areas where it is already being done.

Irrelevant, the AAMC's definition of URM is a low number of physicians of "racial and ethnic populations" relative to a regions population.

Asian is a race, Filipino is an ethnicity.

https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

And the URM document I posted clearly states the AAMC is moving away from the classic 4 groups. Read before posting people.

Are you intimidated that you have to compete against your Asian colleagues?
How does it feel to be ORM?
Are you mad?

Do you even intend on working in a community where there are little r no Filipino physicians?

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

How does it feel..

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

..to be ORM?

 

[Lucca]

Irrelevant, the AAMC's definition of URM is a low number of physicians of "racial and ethnic populations" relative to a regions population.


https://www.aamc.org/download/54278/data/urm.pdf

Yes, but what is the goal of the URM policy? Why just define something and then implement it? For the sake of implementing it? No, because the policy meets the larger goal of improving health care delivery. This is why when the AAMC makes changes to the Urm policy they cite patient outcome studies, health care availability studies, and don't simply quote the US census.


For the sake of argument let's say you are correct. Let's say its all about regional population. Is the disparity anywhere in this country - and don't bring up Hawaii because it only has one school and has more limitations - large enough that Filipinos should be taken into consideration? 3-5% disparity is not good enough. That is tiny compared to the current URM groups. Are there enough Filipino applicants who are both A) competitive for medical school and B) likely to meet this regional disparity?

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

I'm going into the real world now to work now so I don't have to pull the race card when applying for medical school.

 

[coolio24567]

Are you intimidated that you have to compete against your Asian colleagues?
How does it feel to be ORM?
Are you mad?

Do you even intend on working in a community where there are little r no Filipino physicians?

I am mad that Filipinos are regionally underrepresented in some areas because there's a smaller number of applicants, so they get displaced by other Asians who have many more applicants. I just want medical schools to follow the current definition of URM and consider all ethnicities separately, including Filipinos. Not the old definition that clumped all Asians together.

 

[coolio24567]

I'm going into the real world now to work now so I don't have to pull the race card when applying for medical school.

Assumptions assumptions. Who says I'm not in med school already?

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Yes, but what is the goal of the URM policy? Why just define something and then implement it? For the sake of implementing it? No, because the policy meets the larger goal of improving health care delivery. This is why when the AAMC makes changes to the Urm policy they cite patient outcome studies, health care availability studies, and don't simply quote the US census.


For the sake of argument let's say you are correct. Let's say its all about regional population. Is the disparity anywhere in this country - and don't bring up Hawaii because it only has one school and has more limitations - large enough that Filipinos should be taken into consideration? 3-5% disparity is not good enough. That is tiny compared to the current URM groups. Are there enough Filipino applicants who are both A) competitive for medical school and B) likely to meet this regional disparity?

Why are you even attempting to have intelligent discourse with OP. Regardless of what you say, he will not get the point. @Mad Jack already let it go.
If only @DermViser were here..

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Assumptions assumptions. Who says I'm not in med school already?

I'm not a f******* mind-reader, OP. However, you maturity and stance on the arguments alludes to the fact that you are more than likely undergrad.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Moreover, a medical students would usually be smart enough to conduct them self in a more professional way, especially when arguing on a subject like race.

 

[coolio24567]

Yes, but what is the goal of the URM policy? Why just define something and then implement it? For the sake of implementing it? No, because the policy meets the larger goal of improving health care delivery. This is why when the AAMC makes changes to the Urm policy they cite patient outcome studies, health care availability studies, and don't simply quote the US census.


For the sake of argument let's say you are correct. Let's say its all about regional population. Is the disparity anywhere in this country - and don't bring up Hawaii because it only has one school and has more limitations - large enough that Filipinos should be taken into consideration? 3-5% disparity is not good enough. That is tiny compared to the current URM groups. Are there enough Filipino applicants who are both A) competitive for medical school and B) likely to meet this regional disparity?

Who said the number 3-5%? There are potentially regions where Filipinos are HUGELY underrepresented. And who made you the boss of where to draw the line for what's considered URM? "Just enough to not include Filipinos, but include everyone else"

 

[Lucca]

Why are you even attempting to have intelligent discourse with OP. Regardless of what you say, he will not get the point. @Mad Jack already let it go.
If only @DermViser were here..

Dont tag him he doesnt deserve this.

 

[coolio24567]

I'm not a f******* mind-reader, OP. However, you maturity and stance on the arguments alludes to the fact that you are more than likely undergrad.

You're categorizing me based on your own limited experiences. That's the definition of bias.

 

[Lucca]

Who said the number 3-5%? There are potentially regions where Filipinos are HUGELY underrepresented. And who made you the boss of where to draw the line for what's considered URM? "Just enough to not include Filipinos, but everyone else"

Considering that Filipinos make up only 3% of the population and California is already accounted for as taking them into consideration then I am willing to bet the disparity between Filipinos to Flip Physician/Med students is nowhere greater than 5%.

No one made me the boss of anything. It simply makes sense that 3-5% isnt enough because then we would be counting up every single immigrant population in the US as UrM.

I already gave you the criteria you need to prove me wrong:

A) demonstrate that a disparity that is comparable to the hispanic and AA communities exists in at least one region.

B) that region is not already under the consideration of the local medical schools for needing to serve the flip population.

C) the number of flip physicians in said region does not already meet the need.

 

[Mad Jack]

Dont tag him he doesnt deserve this.

He's currently on hold anyway. Hopefully he isn't getting banned.

 

[coolio24567]

Considering that Filipinos make up only 3% of the population and California is already accounted for as taking them into consideration then I am willing to bet the disparity between Filipinos to Flip Physician/Med students is nowhere greater than 5%.

No one made me the boss of anything. It simply makes sense that 3-5% isnt enough because then we would be counting up every single immigrant population in the US as UrM.

I already gave you the criteria you need to prove me wrong:

A) demonstrate that a disparity that is comparable to the hispanic and AA communities exists in at least one region.

B) that region is not already under the consideration of the local medical schools for needing to serve the flip population.

C) the number of flip physicians in said region does not already meet the need.

I gave you the AAMC definition of URM.
I live in a state with a high amount of Filipinos and have never met a filipino doctor or med student. If I have to do a 100 mile radius search to find a Filipino doctor, and can't assume that my nearest hospital has one, when we're one of the largest minority groups, I think that meets the definition of URM.

I'm asking med schools to determine if Filipinos are URM in their own region, according to the AAMC definition, not yours.

 

[Lucca]

I gave you the AAMC definition of URM.
I live in a state with a high amount of Filipinos and have never met a filipino doctor or med student. If I have to do a 100 mile radius search to find a Filipino doctor, and can't assume that my nearest hospital has one, when we're one of the largest minority groups, I think that meets the definition of URM.

I'm asking med schools to determine is Filipinos are URM in their own region, according to the AAMC definition, not yours.

I didn't make up a definition. I told you the point behind the URM policy. That is, the bit that the AAMC actually cares about that they have articulated and rearticulated in every single one of their diversity in the physician workforce reports.

Your anecdotes do not satisfy any of the criteria I listed, come back with some actual data about your region, your regions employment statistics, and your region's medical schools. The US labor bureau is a good place to start the rest is available on the Census and the AAMC.

 

[coolio24567]

I didn't make up a definition. I told you the point behind the URM policy. That is, the bit that the AAMC actually cares about that they have articulated and rearticulated in every single one of their diversity in the physician workforce reports.

Your anecdotes do not satisfy any of the criteria I listed, come back with some actual data about your region, your regions employment statistics, and your region's medical schools. The US labor bureau is a good place to start the rest is available on the Census and the AAMC.

This is exactly what I'm asking med schools to do. Look up their regional Filipino data to determine if they are URM, if they haven't done so already. I don't see why everyone is so against this.

 

[Lucca]

This is exactly what I'm asking med schools to do. Look up their regional Filipino data to determine if they are URM, if they haven't done so already. I don't see why everyone is so against this.

Because you cannot prove there is a need to. There is no way of knowing that they are not already doing this. If they are not, satisfying the three categories I set out for you would show us that they are not.

I am trying to help you.

 

[coolio24567]

Because you cannot prove there is a need to. There is no way of knowing that they are not already doing this. If they are not, satisfying the three categories I set out for you would show us that they are not.

I am trying to help you.

I have to prove a need for them to look up a few numbers? So I basically have to do all the work for every single region? And if they are doing it already, then good. If they aren't, then I hope they do. They can look up every ethnicity for all I care. I just know that there's definitely some areas with Filipino URM, as demonstrated by some medical schools classifying them as such. It wouldn't surprise me if some schools haven't adjusted for the new definition of URM in such a short time frame. (It was changed in 2004). I'm voicing my concern for a potential problem.

Ok show me proof of those 3 criteria and I'll believe you. All I see is the AAMC definition of URM.

 

[Lucca]

I have to prove a need for them to look up a few numbers? So I basically have to do all the work for every single region? And if they are doing it already, then good. If they aren't, then I hope they do. They can look up every ethnicity for all I care. I just know that there's definitely some areas with Filipino URM, as demonstrated by some medical schools classifying them as such. It wouldn't surprise me if some schools haven't adjusted for the new definition of URM in such a short time frame. (It was changed in 2004). I'm voicing my concern for a potential problem.

It's been a decade that isn't short.

Reread what you wrote. You said "I am not going to look up these numbers I just know that my assumption is correct somewhere". This is why no one is believing you. You have spent far too much time justifying your position to people. Prove your position even exists first - the criteria I set out for you - and then justify it. Otherwise, you will get the same criticism over and over again: Your position is unfounded and we dont see what we or anyone should do about it because we just think you are wrong.

 

[Lucca]

He's currently on hold anyway. Hopefully he isn't getting banned.

I couldnt imagine this forum without Derm

 

[coolio24567]

I couldnt imagine this forum without Derm

Ok

It's been a decade that isn't short.

Reread what you wrote. You said "I am not going to look up these numbers I just know that my assumption is correct somewhere". This is why no one is believing you. You have spent far too much time justifying your position to people. Prove your position even exists first - the criteria I set out for you - and then justify it. Otherwise, you will get the same criticism over and over again: Your position is unfounded and we dont see what we or anyone should do about it because we just think you are wrong.

Ok here's my plea to med schools: look up EVERY ethnicity to determine if it's regionally URM by the AAMC definition, if they haven't already done so. There now it's not me being selective about Filipinos, so I don't have to prove a specific need. Med schools have a lot of staff members, they could easily do this. This will catch ALL URM groups.

This would fix ANY disparities caused by the new definition of URM.

Neither you nor I can speak for whether or not medical schools already do this. I'm asking for them to do this if they don't already.

 

[Goro]

Oh, quit whining about diversity. We're not bean counters, trying to get an exact 1:1 match of students/US census population.

If you spent as much time building a better app than yelping about diversity, you'd be in med school right now.

And my school has no problem attracting quality Filipino candidates. Maybe they're not applying to U AL because a) not enough candidates actually live in AL, and B) those that do might want to get out of AL.

That's a whole separate issue of class diversity unrelated to the URM issue. It is of my opinion that a class can't be considered diverse if they don't accept a representative from a major population group within their area. Many of those schools are in states with a high number of Filipinos. They definitely had applicants from the whole spectrum of stats and from many different backgrounds.

 

[LizzyM]

Ok

Ok here's my plea to med schools: look up EVERY ethnicity to determine if it's regionally URM by the AAMC definition, if they haven't already done so. There now it's not me being selective about Filipinos, so I don't have to prove a specific need. Med schools have a lot of staff members, they could easily do this. This will catch ALL URM groups.

This would fix ANY disparities caused by the new definition of URM.

Neither you nor I can speak for whether or not medical schools already do this. I'm asking for them to do this if they don't already.

Would y'all just chill. Do you ever consider that some ethnicities are assimilated and that slicing and dicing by ethnic group by region is a huge waste of time for most schools. Should we do the same for Europe as for Asia? The answers should be obvious in the catchment areas served by a school's alumni whether they are local (in-state) or national. Are there pockets of unmet need among specific ethnic minorities? If yes, how can we work to address that need?

 

[coolio24567]

Would y'all just chill. Do you ever consider that some ethnicities are assimilated and that slicing and dicing by ethnic group by region is a huge waste of time for most schools. Should we do the same for Europe as for Asia? The answers should be obvious in the catchment areas served by a school's alumni whether they are local (in-state) or national. Are there pockets of unmet need among specific ethnic minorities? If yes, how can we work to address that need?

"Should we do the same for Europe as for Asia?"
Well the AAMC felt it was important enough to distinguish between all the Asian ethnicities, but not for Whites, you can ask them that question. They obviously broke down "Asian" into distinct ethnicities as data for med schools to use however they see fit.

Edit: it's an honor to speak to you LizzyM, I've been reading your posts for years.

 

[DokterMom]

Clearly @coolio24567, you feel very strongly that you should be considered a URM. So identify yourself as such and explain why you feel that designation is valid. But do please take care not to insult or antagonize your essay readers who very probably will start off assuming that you're wrongfullly seeking an advantage and will need to be convinced otherwise.

 

[texan2414]

It is of my opinion that a class can't be considered diverse if they don't accept a representative from a major population group within their area. Many of those schools are in states with a high number of Filipinos. They definitely had applicants from the whole spectrum of stats and from many different backgrounds.

Since you're not an admissions committee member, nor the president of the AAMC, your opinions mean nothing.
Your due for a serious reality check. Stop being so self-centered, ignorant, and disingenuous.

 

[coolio24567]

Since you're not an admissions committee member, nor the president of the AAMC, your opinions mean nothing.
Your due for a serious reality check. Stop being so self-centered, ignorant, and disingenuous.

By that logic, nobody's opinion here matters, including yours.

People are allowed to voice their opinions to be heard.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

OP your thread would likely have better outcomes if you stopped being so hostile towards everyone that comments and accusing them of being racist simply for disagreeing with your logic. This is a terrible way to carry out a discussion, and likely the reason why you have been unsuccessful in finding a healthy exchange.

You need to take a deep breath and let go of your own biases, re-read the comments over the past few days. I've read every single one and it appears to me that you have not allowed yourself to actually digest what some of the respondents have proposed to you.

I understand your point but I think the core of the rebuttal has escaped you. Move past the simple definition of URM, and read the dialogue with an open mind.


Just my 2¢

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

OP your thread would likely have better outcomes if you stopped being so hostile towards everyone that comments and accusing them of being racist simply for disagreeing with your logic. This is a terrible way to carry out a discussion, and likely the reason why you have been unsuccessful in finding a healthy exchange.

You need to take a deep breath and let go of your own biases, re-read the comments over the past few days. I've read every single one and it appears to me that you have not allowed yourself to actually digest what some of the respondents have proposed to you.

I understand your point but I think the core of the rebuttal has escaped you. Move past the simple definition of URM, and read the dialogue with an open mind.


Just my 2¢

I'll play OP for a second in an Arnold Schwarz. voice: NO, WE FILIPINOS DESERVE JUSTICE; I DESERVE A SPOT WITHOUT HAVING TO DO ANY WORK. GET TO THA CHOPPER!

 

[coolio24567]

I'll play OP for a second in an Arnold Schwarz. voice: NO, WE FILIPINOS DESERVE JUSTICE; I DESERVE A SPOT WITHOUT HAVING TO DO ANY WORK. GET TO THA CHOPPER!

Assumptions. Who says I don't have a 4.0/40 and legitimately just want to see my ethnicity represented?

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

Assumptions. Who says I don't have a 4.0/40 and legitimately just want to see my ethnicity represented?

 

[coolio24567]

I like Miley's newer stuff better.

 

[Dr Van Helsing]

I like Miley's newer stuff better.

It's all about T-Swift and Kieza (or however you spell it) for me.