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If that was the case, then there wouldn't be any nontraditional applicants.
URM=unethical?
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If that was the case, then there wouldn't be any nontraditional applicants.
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I really had to think hard of whether I wanted to reply to this thread but I decided to. I'm not a proponent of AA in the way that it has been misused by some institutions. Originally, I was told AA was a method by which a school would select a person from a minority race over a person from the majority who has similar stats. We all know there are instances in which people with fairly lower stats are selected over those with higher stats. I don't think this should be labeled AA but should be the process by which the adcom takes a person's history/disadvantaged status into account. Not just to select them based on race but looking at the entire picture and whether this person was able to overcome adversity to get where they are today.
Like many people have said throughout this thread, URM status may get you in the door of the medical school but it will not help you to graduate or pass the boards. Why are people so concerned with this anyway? URM's make up less than 10% of most medical school classes (not referring to HBCUs). Yes I know that less minorities apply which would make it easier for them to gain acceptance but how about we all focus on being the best applicants we can be rather than complain about a policy we cannot change.
The FACT that some people on here fail to realize is that most medical students are not interested in practicing in underserved communities. Yes some of you on here said you would regardless of your race but you are the minority. We need more physicians interested in treating our poorest communities because they are the reasons for higher health care costs. If you aren't able to see a primary care physician in your community because they aren't available or don't treat people without insurance, you end up in the emergency room, our nation's most expensive form of health care. Then we all end up picking up the slack when hospitals have to charge our insurance companies more to make up for this loss in revenue.
As you can probably tell by my sign in name, I am from an island. A place where education was not the best and that alone makes me inherently disadvantaged because I didn't have the opportunities other people may of had. I know people who had to travel to other islands and the mainland just to get specialized health care. Many people may not think I am disadvantaged at first glance at my application because I attended a top 10 university, but the barriers I had to overcome to be successful is definitely greater than the majority of applicants. Should I have an advantage because of this? Maybe, but I will tell you this, I don't see many people rushing to the islands to serve my community so I would be happy if my URM status allows me to do so.
Yes people say that showing favoritism to URM will not solve the greater problem or inequity in education. However, solving the problem in our schools will not happen overnight and does that mean that health disparities should continue to persist while we work on our schools? No. Training physicians interested in serving underserved communities is one way to help ease the burden of health disparities. I believe that health disparities stem from educational disparities because people who have a better education, get better jobs with insurance and are able to take better care of themselves. Inequity is a vicious cycle in our society and we all need to help stop it.
Like many people have said throughout this thread, URM status may get you in the door of the medical school but it will not help you to graduate or pass the boards. Why are people so concerned with this anyway? URM's make up less than 10% of most medical school classes (not referring to HBCUs). Yes I know that less minorities apply which would make it easier for them to gain acceptance but how about we all focus on being the best applicants we can be rather than complain about a policy we cannot change.
The FACT that some people on here fail to realize is that most medical students are not interested in practicing in underserved communities. Yes some of you on here said you would regardless of your race but you are the minority. We need more physicians interested in treating our poorest communities because they are the reasons for higher health care costs. If you aren't able to see a primary care physician in your community because they aren't available or don't treat people without insurance, you end up in the emergency room, our nation's most expensive form of health care. Then we all end up picking up the slack when hospitals have to charge our insurance companies more to make up for this loss in revenue.
As you can probably tell by my sign in name, I am from an island. A place where education was not the best and that alone makes me inherently disadvantaged because I didn't have the opportunities other people may of had. I know people who had to travel to other islands and the mainland just to get specialized health care. Many people may not think I am disadvantaged at first glance at my application because I attended a top 10 university, but the barriers I had to overcome to be successful is definitely greater than the majority of applicants. Should I have an advantage because of this? Maybe, but I will tell you this, I don't see many people rushing to the islands to serve my community so I would be happy if my URM status allows me to do so.
Yes people say that showing favoritism to URM will not solve the greater problem or inequity in education. However, solving the problem in our schools will not happen overnight and does that mean that health disparities should continue to persist while we work on our schools? No. Training physicians interested in serving underserved communities is one way to help ease the burden of health disparities. I believe that health disparities stem from educational disparities because people who have a better education, get better jobs with insurance and are able to take better care of themselves. Inequity is a vicious cycle in our society and we all need to help stop it.
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Islandprincess makes some great points. those of you who are not from underserved areas but wish to practice there are the exception, not the rule. statistically, those from these communities are more likely to return to practice there. This alone justifies some degree of AA to me. Anecdotes lose to statistics in my book everyday.
2 other things:
1) giving urms a marginal benefit in the admissions process does not significantly hurt white/asian folks. urms are such a small percentage of the pool that they can have a significantly increased chance of acceptance w/o substantially hurting the odds of any individual. Do the math.
2) who are these urm slackers you talk about? i've never met these supposed black kids who rely on AA. my pre-med friends of all colors worked their butts off. AA is a small thing, not something to "rely" on. those of you who misunderstand and over-elevate this edge in your minds are the ones who make people feel like they haven't earned it - everyone with an acceptance who i've interacted with has earned it.
2 other things:
1) giving urms a marginal benefit in the admissions process does not significantly hurt white/asian folks. urms are such a small percentage of the pool that they can have a significantly increased chance of acceptance w/o substantially hurting the odds of any individual. Do the math.
2) who are these urm slackers you talk about? i've never met these supposed black kids who rely on AA. my pre-med friends of all colors worked their butts off. AA is a small thing, not something to "rely" on. those of you who misunderstand and over-elevate this edge in your minds are the ones who make people feel like they haven't earned it - everyone with an acceptance who i've interacted with has earned it.
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I doubt it. At that age most kids are afraid of doctors and their needles. They want to be as far away from doctors as possible.
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It's racist and illegal in California.
If public institutions discriminate against qualified minorities (e.g., whites and Asians in California), is that not racial discrimination?
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high GPA + high MCAT =/= qualified to be a doctor
it takes a lot more than numbers to be a good doctor. No med school is willing to risk their name and reputation by accepting students that aren't "qualified" and can't pass the USMLE
it takes a lot more than numbers to be a good doctor. No med school is willing to risk their name and reputation by accepting students that aren't "qualified" and can't pass the USMLE
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Then simply ask on the app, do you want to work in underserved areas.
Define 'marginal' benefit. If someone with an MCAT score 5 points below your's and a GPA 0.3 below your's, less volunteering, no research (and you have substancial), and that person not only gets into more programs than you, but into programs that you applied to, and weren't even offered an interview. I'm sorry, that's not a 'marginal' benefit in my book. (Note: as I stated previously, I have no problem with individuals with disadvantaged background having more leniency, but the standard should be something other than checking a box.)
Check out these threads. I realize SDN isn't the most reliable thing, and these are a few cases of thousands of individuals who qualify to apply as a URM, but when you see people abuse the system, ya start to not like the system, or at least think it needs to be changed to function better.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=638162
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=659554
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=658929
Who in hell WOULDN'T say they'd work in an underprivileged area if it got them an admission statement?? I'm sure you know how many pre-meds "take up the White Man's Burden" and commit to the requisite volunteer work in "under-served communities" before going on to apply for Derm or Radiology residency. Even those who actually want to work in this area can be quick to change their minds after working in the community. Minorities are tied to the community.
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Gross. I was referring to how the term "reverse racism" doesn't mean anything, something is either racism or it isn't.
2
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Good points. I hope you get into your top choice program.
URM does not apply to only people who live in underserved areas, it gives preference blindly to any and all URM. I do not agree that it is reasonable to assume that URM are more likely to serve in underserved areas. I do agree that students who come from these areas are likely to return, but I don't see how this implies URMs... there are plenty of white people from poor, rural and underserved areas and plenty of middle and upper class URMs who come from the suburbs.
I think the disadvantaged status is the place for AA; anyone who feels they have been academically disadvantaged for any reason be it race, socioeconomic status, lack of healthcare resources, etc should be able to explain there why they feel they deserve special consideration.
I think the disadvantaged status is the place for AA; anyone who feels they have been academically disadvantaged for any reason be it race, socioeconomic status, lack of healthcare resources, etc should be able to explain there why they feel they deserve special consideration.
N
Nogaro
Couldn't help but post. Many of you had great points.
Hear me out...
I think that the notion of all-black medical schools is absurd. Similarly, religion-dominated schools are disturbing (ahem LL).
Here in southern california, I volunteer at a clinic for families near poverty or in poverty. 85% are spanish speakers. Guess what the doctors' ethnicities are? white, white, white, chinese, indian. All of the PAs, and most of the MA's are white as well (including me). 👍 Who the **** wants a doctor based on race? The minority patients at the aforementioned clinic love their non-URM doctors, and the non-URM doctors love them back 😍
There was an article somewhere that noted Howard and Meharry produce physicians with the MOST frequent infractions nationwide. How do you feel about this, honestly? To me, it's baffling. (If this study is BS, I stand corrected, but please prove me wrong)
If you are one who has been SIGNIFICANTLY disadvantaged, and you still have the diligence to be competitive for med school, I admire you. However, I don't think being disadvantaged necessarily fosters the qualities of a good physician any more than it fosters callousness. This should CLEARLY be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. And plus, your story better be phenomenal if you're going to present yourself as disadvantaged.
No matter who you are, we are all disadvantaged in our own ways. We ALL have challenges to overcome. I have never felt comfortable making excuses for anything. I think it's impossible for adcoms to accurately judge the strife one has faced in one's life, and suitingly, I believe it fundamentally shouldn't play a large role in admissions decisions.
What it should REALLY come down to is this: if somebody would make a more intelligent, more empathetic, more enthusiastic physician than me, then by all means accept them over me.
But race should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Making allowances for less qualified individuals, URM or not, should be administered with extreme caution.
And please don't say it's because URM "go back to the areas non-URM won't." Total BS (please see clinic example, and previous posters)
Hear me out...
I think that the notion of all-black medical schools is absurd. Similarly, religion-dominated schools are disturbing (ahem LL).
Here in southern california, I volunteer at a clinic for families near poverty or in poverty. 85% are spanish speakers. Guess what the doctors' ethnicities are? white, white, white, chinese, indian. All of the PAs, and most of the MA's are white as well (including me). 👍 Who the **** wants a doctor based on race? The minority patients at the aforementioned clinic love their non-URM doctors, and the non-URM doctors love them back 😍
There was an article somewhere that noted Howard and Meharry produce physicians with the MOST frequent infractions nationwide. How do you feel about this, honestly? To me, it's baffling. (If this study is BS, I stand corrected, but please prove me wrong)
If you are one who has been SIGNIFICANTLY disadvantaged, and you still have the diligence to be competitive for med school, I admire you. However, I don't think being disadvantaged necessarily fosters the qualities of a good physician any more than it fosters callousness. This should CLEARLY be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. And plus, your story better be phenomenal if you're going to present yourself as disadvantaged.
No matter who you are, we are all disadvantaged in our own ways. We ALL have challenges to overcome. I have never felt comfortable making excuses for anything. I think it's impossible for adcoms to accurately judge the strife one has faced in one's life, and suitingly, I believe it fundamentally shouldn't play a large role in admissions decisions.
What it should REALLY come down to is this: if somebody would make a more intelligent, more empathetic, more enthusiastic physician than me, then by all means accept them over me.
But race should have absolutely nothing to do with it. Making allowances for less qualified individuals, URM or not, should be administered with extreme caution.
And please don't say it's because URM "go back to the areas non-URM won't." Total BS (please see clinic example, and previous posters)
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Racism = the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races
So saying that a certain race is inferior and giving them a handicap to get to any type of schooling (undergrad, med school whatever) is racist isn't it?
I don't get how you cannot say a race is inferior, but you can treat a race like it is by giving them a "head-start" or a handicap.
Real equality is leveling the playing field, unfortunately our society feels like it always has to be politically correct and has to try to make up for the mistakes of our forefathers.
That being said, I come from a very financially stable household and I do not feel more advantaged when it comes to my ability to learn and perform academically. Take an idiot and put him in the ghetto, he will be an idiot, take him to beverly hills and he will still be an idiot. I doubt that where you grow up makes you too lazy to study hard for your classes and the MCAT, and if your parents aren't financially stable they give financial aid and federal grants for schooling, or you can work hard in high school and get a scholarship. Do you really want to feel like you needed governmental intervention allowing you to get into somewhere you wouldn't have been allowed in only because you are of a certain race?
This is a very touchy subject and I have a biast opinion because I am a minority, but not a URM. I'm glad states are voting on keeping AA or not.
So saying that a certain race is inferior and giving them a handicap to get to any type of schooling (undergrad, med school whatever) is racist isn't it?
I don't get how you cannot say a race is inferior, but you can treat a race like it is by giving them a "head-start" or a handicap.
Real equality is leveling the playing field, unfortunately our society feels like it always has to be politically correct and has to try to make up for the mistakes of our forefathers.
That being said, I come from a very financially stable household and I do not feel more advantaged when it comes to my ability to learn and perform academically. Take an idiot and put him in the ghetto, he will be an idiot, take him to beverly hills and he will still be an idiot. I doubt that where you grow up makes you too lazy to study hard for your classes and the MCAT, and if your parents aren't financially stable they give financial aid and federal grants for schooling, or you can work hard in high school and get a scholarship. Do you really want to feel like you needed governmental intervention allowing you to get into somewhere you wouldn't have been allowed in only because you are of a certain race?
This is a very touchy subject and I have a biast opinion because I am a minority, but not a URM. I'm glad states are voting on keeping AA or not.
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except for that it's not BS, it's statistics. statistics >>>anecdote.
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Right, because that won't be abused. Whatever the system is, people will find a way to abuse it, but that doesn't mean the system is horrible, and it's certainly better than this half-baked idea.
They already give you the opportunity to talk about that if it interests you on most secondary applications, and I'm sure that's something that can be beneficial to a URM applicant as well as a non-URM applicant. Specific to the URMs, I've heard adcoms talk about weighting URM status more for people who have strong ties to their community.
You are right that I should not have used the word marginal, which is vague. My point was that someone can have an advantage w/o anyone else being significantly handicapped (ie their odds of acceptance changing). You are thinking about it in terms of comparing person A to person B, whereas I was thinking about it in terms of the entire pool. Frankly, the situation you described does not match my experience. Sure there are places where I did not receive interviews where I'm sure people with lower numbers did, but I don't see their interview offer as having anything to do with me.
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Right, because laziness is the only feeling that keeps you from being successful.🙄
Ever stop to think that growing up in the ghetto can cultivate a feeling of worthlessness/learned helplessness that secondarily manifests in what we perceive as laziness? As in, "I'm not good enough to do well enough to escape this mess, so why bother trying"? You go to a school where the teachers are overwhelmed/don't care about providing a decent education to their students because of the lovely system we call "No Child Left Behind" in which funding is restricted to those schools who fail to meet academic standards, and pretty soon the child/adolescent begins to lack focus and direction in his/her life. Then they often go home to dysfunctional families who are supposed to model those values society holds dear, but wind up failing miserably in that respect. With no support or role models to follow, what's a kid to do when the system (and even his/her own family) is keeping him/her down? Granted, a few will rise up to meet the challenge, but others wind up just settling and perpetuating the cycle.
Now, if you knew me at all, you'd know that I'm nowhere near the bleeding heart you might guess from the previous paragraph. However, I make the above point to address those who grossly commit the fundamental attribution error in their judgments. What others see manifested as "laziness" may in fact be the product of factors much more insidious.
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Regardless if their performance is due to external factors or simply due to laziness, do you want people who are maybe not the most qualified to be your doctors? If your act isnt together when you apply to medical school, there is no reason why one should believe their act will be together when they are doctors.
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Qualified in what sense? GPA and MCAT scores? Interview attitude? And who made the claim that because you're applying URM must somehow mean that your act isn't together? I don't think adcom's interview/accept anyone who isn't likely to be able to withstand the rigors of medical school.
If you ask me, if these "underqualified" individuals can pass the boards, the quoted label can go out the window. I really don't see what the fuss is, anyway; it's not like our classes are brimming with minorities.
It just seems as if a lot of judgment is passed on URM status when it could be any of a multitude of factors that allowed one person to be accepted into school over another applicant.
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This is exactly what happens. Many URMs, especially the older black ones, don't go to the doctor simply because they don't trust their doctors. They either think that they will give them something to hurt them, or they just won't give them anything to help. That being said, they well never get the chance to meet a white doctor that treats them with respect.
I haven't got a chance to read all of these, but this is the first one that stuck out to me. I usually don't reply to posts like these, but I'm in one of those controversial discussions mood.
And speaking as a MS1 and a URM, I would just like to say that I'm on the fence about this. I had a low MCAT score the first time I took it (due to something that I did to hender my performance, but we won't get into that). I probably still could have gotten in somewhere being a URM, but being a URM made me the type of person that never settled for performing underpar or count on my skin color to get me by. That being said, I think a lot of URM's can do better, they just don't feel the need to. I took the MCAT again and performed well enough to get into enough schools including my first choice. And I also raised my GPA, not that it was low or anything, but hey anything to help the process.I feel like I deserved all of the acceptances I got because I performed at or above the averages for all the schools I applied to. But at the same time, I feel like my non-URM counterparts look at me as if I'm inferior or they are thinking that maybe I got in because the school needed to fill their URM quota. It bothers me a little because I don't want people thinking that. I want them to know, as I know, that I am capable of doing anything and performing at any level they are capable of performing. And while my skin color and racial-socioeconomic experiences might make it a little harder for me to adapt to things that may come easy to more priviledged people (and I don't mean rich people or all white people), I will not use this as a crutch.
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Is this an inferiority complex talking, or have your peers actually made you feel as if you "took someone's spot"?
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I don't know why people are acting like this is something new. Perhaps my undergrad experience was unique, but as an URM, I was harassed on a damn near daily basis about how I didn't deserve to be here or I was only here because of my skin color or I should shut up and my voice doesn't count because someone else's family must be paying for me to go here through financial aide or (this one took the cake) How URMs only serve to create social and academic ghettos (printed in our school paper by a white boy who later got arrested snorting cocaine off the hood of a car during tailgate). Granted, I went to Duke, which is just choc full of racist or prejudiced people of all races...but you get my point. I scored in the highest percentages on my SATs, had above a 4.00 high school GPA, was nationally recognized in multiple instruments, founded a volunteer org at my school, wasn't even on financial aide, blah blah blah and I still was harassed (and I do mean verbally and physically harassed/assaulted) on some level damn near every day for 4 yrs. Do you have any idea what that does to a person's psyche? [Quietly, I feel disadvantaged going to Duke as a URM...lol kinda]
I guarantee you this did not stem from AA practices...people did, however, use this (i.e. AA) as a venue to express their racism, prejudice, and just down-right hatred for people they viewed as less than them - which, simply put, were people different than them. Abolishing AA or URM status will not rid the harassment URM students face.
And while we're on it, (since people seem to be confused) URM and Affirmative Action are not the same thing! AA, which many of you seem to be so against, benefits white females more than any other group...
Also, as an African American, I know many other black friends and family members who really don't go to the doctor because they don't trust white people or go and then dismiss whatever the doctor says, once again because they inherently don't trust white people. It might seem unbelievable to some, but this noncompliance is something you are going to face one day, and then you'll realize the benefit of having URMs as physicians...
I guarantee you this did not stem from AA practices...people did, however, use this (i.e. AA) as a venue to express their racism, prejudice, and just down-right hatred for people they viewed as less than them - which, simply put, were people different than them. Abolishing AA or URM status will not rid the harassment URM students face.
And while we're on it, (since people seem to be confused) URM and Affirmative Action are not the same thing! AA, which many of you seem to be so against, benefits white females more than any other group...
Also, as an African American, I know many other black friends and family members who really don't go to the doctor because they don't trust white people or go and then dismiss whatever the doctor says, once again because they inherently don't trust white people. It might seem unbelievable to some, but this noncompliance is something you are going to face one day, and then you'll realize the benefit of having URMs as physicians...
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Well well well..where do I start. I wasnt going to respond to this thread but the multitude of sad responses were overwhelming and prompted me write something.
I know many of you dont know or dont care to hear of other disparities such as those with "african american sounding names" getting 50% less job callbacks than those with "white sounding names" while having the same exact resume. (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html) This has a large impact on employment opportunities for most african americans. Disproportionate rates of arrest, conviction and incarceration for committing the same or lesser crimes than white counterparts with similar or no criminal histories. The racial profiling that has been proven over and over. The harrassment by law enforcement in some areas. Where I am from, most black males go to jail or have been to jail. It almost seems like a part of life. It was amazing to me when I went to college there were people who didnt even know anyone in jail. Many of the people whom I knew went to jail, didnt do anything wrong. They were just at the wrong and sometimes right place, and the wrong time. I had a friends who were harrassed by people everyday to and from school. They felt so threatened that they started cutting through factories to avoid these people. One was caught walking through the factory and was jailed for trespassing. He tried to explain to the police his logic, it was either: cut through the factory (trespassing=jail), carry a knife or get a gun for protection (manslaughter=jail, illegal possession of a gun=jail) or say the hell with it and stop going to school alltogether because it was dangerous (truancy=jail). Many of the siatuations are no win and hopeless. Given these circumstances of many of our countries inner city neighborhoods, disparities with the resume thing, and host of other social issues that affect millions of lives, not just a small number of premeds, I find it completely hilarious that there is such an outrage that there may be a handful of students getting into medical school with less than a 3.6 and 31 mcat.
The people that are crying stop the discrimination or "reverse discrimination" (which is a misnomer in itself) and are spending thousands of dollars on court battles and publicity to stop any special considerations for URMs, under the guise of equality for all, as if they are the saving grace of modern civil rights, are saying nothing any of the blatant injustices as those I have spoken of and countless others that I havent mentioned, because they arent these altruistic noblemen they claim to be, they are only doing it for their own selfish measures.
And to the guy who said, his clinic that catered to the underserved primarily consisted of non minority physicians, well; as far for african american physicians, they only consist of about 3% of all physicans and there are certainly more underserved areas than there are african american phyicians so ofcourse there will be clinics that resemble the one your speak of.
I know many of you dont know or dont care to hear of other disparities such as those with "african american sounding names" getting 50% less job callbacks than those with "white sounding names" while having the same exact resume. (http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html) This has a large impact on employment opportunities for most african americans. Disproportionate rates of arrest, conviction and incarceration for committing the same or lesser crimes than white counterparts with similar or no criminal histories. The racial profiling that has been proven over and over. The harrassment by law enforcement in some areas. Where I am from, most black males go to jail or have been to jail. It almost seems like a part of life. It was amazing to me when I went to college there were people who didnt even know anyone in jail. Many of the people whom I knew went to jail, didnt do anything wrong. They were just at the wrong and sometimes right place, and the wrong time. I had a friends who were harrassed by people everyday to and from school. They felt so threatened that they started cutting through factories to avoid these people. One was caught walking through the factory and was jailed for trespassing. He tried to explain to the police his logic, it was either: cut through the factory (trespassing=jail), carry a knife or get a gun for protection (manslaughter=jail, illegal possession of a gun=jail) or say the hell with it and stop going to school alltogether because it was dangerous (truancy=jail). Many of the siatuations are no win and hopeless. Given these circumstances of many of our countries inner city neighborhoods, disparities with the resume thing, and host of other social issues that affect millions of lives, not just a small number of premeds, I find it completely hilarious that there is such an outrage that there may be a handful of students getting into medical school with less than a 3.6 and 31 mcat.
The people that are crying stop the discrimination or "reverse discrimination" (which is a misnomer in itself) and are spending thousands of dollars on court battles and publicity to stop any special considerations for URMs, under the guise of equality for all, as if they are the saving grace of modern civil rights, are saying nothing any of the blatant injustices as those I have spoken of and countless others that I havent mentioned, because they arent these altruistic noblemen they claim to be, they are only doing it for their own selfish measures.
And to the guy who said, his clinic that catered to the underserved primarily consisted of non minority physicians, well; as far for african american physicians, they only consist of about 3% of all physicans and there are certainly more underserved areas than there are african american phyicians so ofcourse there will be clinics that resemble the one your speak of.
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I think this says it most accurately.
The medical profession is different than many other professions - it is not just a game where the applicants who look best on paper magically transform into the best physicians...no, the medical profession has the added responsibility of creating doctors who are going to be trusted and respected by their patients.
If all schools stopped trying to create a diverse medical school population, you may end up with entirely black or hispanic areas staffed by white residents...who, despite their best intentions, don't often understand where their patients are coming from or what their hardships are. The best doctors need to understand their patients well enough to know where their problems come from and which treatments are liklely (or unlikely) to work for them.
This is a service profession - we need to worry more about the end result to the communities who need doctors than the feelings of the pre-meds who don't end up at their dream school and blame it on diversity.
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Where is the evidence to support your assertions?
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1466852
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So, you were psychologically traumatized as a result of AA/URM policies, but you still support them? And now, whether you want to or not, you will be subjected to them again - there are a lot of white people at the schools you are applying to! Did you apply to Howard and Meharry last year? Were you rejected?
I have read your other posts. You are a deeply troubled young woman. What will it be like for you white colleagues one day, working next to someone who thinks all of them privileged, evil, racist bastards?
Let us be honest - people have a preference for those of their own race and ethnicity. Walk around any college campus and you will see racially segregated groups of students hanging out. It is a simple fact of life, just as we all favor our own children over those of our neighbor. But, this in itself is not evil or morally suspect. Freedom of association, no?
And nothing will ever change the historical reality of the founding of a county. Would it make sense for me to move to Japan and then complain that the "power structure" is dominated by Japanese men? Would it make sense to complain that they don't treat me as one of their own?
Whenever you complain about some white schmuck favoring some other white schmuck, you are basically complaining about someone favoring their own family members. It will never change, and YOU do it, too. The US is a prime example of what happens when very different people live together - eventually, they form ethnic communities, because THEY LIKE IT that way.
Don't get pissed because you can't get into some exclusive club founded by some white guys two hundred years ago. People have a right to their exclusive clubs. And nobody is stopping you from relocating to some other part of the world - people immigrate to America, so you can surely emigrate out to a place where you will love your fellow citizens and they will love you back. But you won't, right? Because we have all the cool stuff here, and you want a part of it, while at the same time cursing all the people who made it a reality. A lot of people worked damn hard to make the US what it it, so, if you are going to make a use of it, have some respect.
BTW, since you hated Duke so much, why call yourself PinkIvy08? Don't be a hypocrite.
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Just to play DA, if this is the rationale, then it would seem that the solution would be to force such applicants to practice in the underserved communities from which they came; not just stack the roster with URM in hopes that they will return to their communities to practice.
Uh I was a minority at a much more Southern, predominantly white school than Duke, and I never once got taunted or harassed because of my ethnicity. It happened every day to you? There's something very very wrong with this picture...
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Neither...they don't make me feel like I've took someone else's spot and I don't feel inferior to them. It's just that I am highly aware of what some people may or may not be thinking.
Although I can't pin point it to the exact person. The same can go that there may not be any of these people that think this way at my school, but there are still some of them out there that think that way. You can never be sure of who's thinking what but you know somebody IS thinking it.
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Yeah, and some people probably think I'm a jerk for no reason, too; big whoop. The way you made it sound, it was like you were getting the cold shoulder every day from a multitude of people; now it just sounds like you're being paranoid. If people don't actually make you feel persecuted for being URM, then why get all worked up over it just because someone, somewhere is an ignorant a**?
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Okay I had to go to class so I couldn't post the other side of the fence that I'm on, and this is a slippery slope. Being a URM I consider myself highly resilient. Some people are not. Being a URM can take a toll on people mentally. Not saying that they are not capable of performing up to task, but they can't often show their skills in a way that has been set and accepted by the majority as "the standard". Some people may not like it, but it is true. That being said, not all of the majority can adapt to this standard, but a larger percentage of them can being that the odds are in their favors.
But I am still on the fence about this because I feel that it is sending the wrong messages to URMs, that subpar performances are expected and accepted from them. But then it goes back to being able to measure every group's abilities in a way that is equal and complementary to their lifestyles, race, and socioeconomic statuses.While no one should be forced to adapt to another person's standards for success, that is unfortunately how the world works.
But I am still on the fence about this because I feel that it is sending the wrong messages to URMs, that subpar performances are expected and accepted from them. But then it goes back to being able to measure every group's abilities in a way that is equal and complementary to their lifestyles, race, and socioeconomic statuses.While no one should be forced to adapt to another person's standards for success, that is unfortunately how the world works.
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Nogaro
Black people don't trust white doctors? Really?
Uhm, so it seems the problem is with black culture then (NOT THE NON-URM DOCTORS). The solution is not to make more doctors based on skin color. Do we really want to perpetuate racially based distrust in the 21st century?
Let me reiterate: I condone making allowances for someone who has faced extreme disadvantage. But this should have NOTHING to do with race, and everything to do with individual circumstance.
Did anybody glance at that article about Howard/Meharry? Shiftingmirage posted the link. It seems like blacks should be distrusting black doctors, doesn't it?
Making excuses for less-qualified candidates is dangerous and unfair IMO. If blacks want black doctors based on race, they're gonna end up like MJ.
Oh yah one more thing...people actually think that if a doctor is of a different race, they're going to give them drugs to hurt them? Wow...
Uhm, so it seems the problem is with black culture then (NOT THE NON-URM DOCTORS). The solution is not to make more doctors based on skin color. Do we really want to perpetuate racially based distrust in the 21st century?
Let me reiterate: I condone making allowances for someone who has faced extreme disadvantage. But this should have NOTHING to do with race, and everything to do with individual circumstance.
Did anybody glance at that article about Howard/Meharry? Shiftingmirage posted the link. It seems like blacks should be distrusting black doctors, doesn't it?
Making excuses for less-qualified candidates is dangerous and unfair IMO. If blacks want black doctors based on race, they're gonna end up like MJ.
Oh yah one more thing...people actually think that if a doctor is of a different race, they're going to give them drugs to hurt them? Wow...
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Do you guys realize that African Americans have only been allowed the option of non segregated education for the last 55 years? (Brown vs. Board of Ed look it up). Seriously, do you realize that African americans can go back four generations and a vast majority of their race would be basically illiterate and that level of eduction was brutally enforced by the government. Honestly no other race has been denied education as fervently as african americans. And for those of you that whine about well- off african americans that get the "URM" status: Do you seriously think that ad coms approach rich and poor african american applicants the same way?
Are you guys really whining about letting a whole race of people have an education that has been denied to them for over 200 years?
Are you guys really whining about letting a whole race of people have an education that has been denied to them for over 200 years?
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Nogaro
The only thing that I disagree with, really, is having entire medical schools comprised of one race. Nor do I agree with schools like Loma Linda, which are comprised disproportionately of one religion.
I think that any medical school in the country should be admitting who they believe will become the best physicians. Excluding ALL but a small demographic from a medical school seems inherently wrong to do.
I think that any medical school in the country should be admitting who they believe will become the best physicians. Excluding ALL but a small demographic from a medical school seems inherently wrong to do.
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Yeah, how there they. What have white doctors ever done to them? I mean bottom line is the past happened and we can't change it. So acting like you have no clue as to how the ideals of groups different than the ones you belong to came about, won't really make it any different. Needless to say that the black people who don't trust white doctors are older and the younger ones that have been greatly influenced by their elders on the issue. Really the last two lines. You really need to get a little more cultured on that issue. It's kind of a why would I been over in front of you if you've already kicked me in the behind before.
And I know you will say it was a long time ago, but our past does effect our present, be it positive or negative, no matter how hard we might try to not let it.
That being said, some black people (again older) don't trust doctors at all or just aren't comfortable with them no matter what race they are.
The MJ comment was uncalled for. There are bad doctors of all races, but yet you seem to indicate that black doctors are the only ones who kill people.
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...I'm leaving this post- Joined
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Okay so I'm not leaving yet...see this is why I don't usually reply to these because I can't stop.
I didn't say I was getting "all worked up over it". I said it bothers me...well not really bothers me it's just something I think about when my mind wonders. It doesn't effect my self esteem or my work or anything. And the being prosecuted thing is just... lets just put it like this...
If someone sliced you across the face and it left a huge scar, but they apologized and you accepted would that make it alright? But hold on... a large group of people start walking around with mirrors on their shirts with a sign that says "Look here", reflecting your image (scar and all) back at you whether knowingly or unknowingly. Wouldn't it be a little hard to forgive and forget if you kept getting constant reminders of the dirty deed done to you? And just because there are people that don't walk around with mirrors on them does that mean the scar is invisible to them just because they don't blatantly acknowledge it with a mirror and a sign.
Don't get me wrong I am not one of those people that blames everything I dislike from others on race. It's just that educated ignorance isn't always so bold...and the fact that people have made race such a touchy subject doesn't make it any better. I personally am not offended if you are willing to make fun of or laugh at the group you belong to as well as others. I also feel more comfortable around people who can willingly talk about race, or gender, or whatever no matter who uncomfortable it may be...
now I'm leaving...I think.
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Pssh. Who cares about URMs and the advantages they get. I'm still grumbling about this guy:
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319
Apparently he failed his first year at UF (entering fall 2008) and is now repeating again as a first year (fall 2009), meaning he subtracted another seat from the class of 2013.
http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319
Apparently he failed his first year at UF (entering fall 2008) and is now repeating again as a first year (fall 2009), meaning he subtracted another seat from the class of 2013.
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I was "psychologically traumatized" by the racism I experienced on a daily basis at an institution I was paying $40Gs+ to attend...your reading comprehension is lacking. It was not AA/URM status that threw bottles at me, racially profiled me, or yelled racial slurs at me...those were done by people.
I have close friends of all races and ethnicities, and I value having such a diverse group of people in my life, able to bring unique perspectives to the table...pushing me to think outside my own experiences. For some reason, you conclude that since I'm against racist and prejudiced people, I am somehow against white people? or think all white people act or think in a certain way? That would be ludicrous and illogical.
As for school selections this year and last year, being a Jersey girl, I really prefer not to be in the South anymore, if possible. Therefore, the only HBCU I applied to was Howard. I actually wasn't rejected officially last year...complicated story, but in sum, my app was inadvertently placed on hold for the entire app cycle last yr. I have nothing against white people (or any other race). I do have a problem with racism or prejudice on any level, towards any group. And, I'm applying to Howard not because they are an HBCU, but because of a combination of family ties to the institution and their mission statement (producing doctors committed to serving the under-served, which is what I want to do).
I'm curious what other posts of mine you read that would lead you to resort of low-level, juvenile name calling. How old are we? 12? Can we not cordially engage in discourse? I might not think your opinion is correct, but you are certainly entitled to it, and I am respectable enough not to stoop to your level and start name-calling and jumping to hasty assumptions about your character. Most of my posts are highly supportive of others and encouraging...save maybe for the ridiculous ones about people trying to change their race on their apps after unsuccessfully gaining admission to med school twice (and even still, if you read my response, I was very polite in giving my opinion).
The rest of your argument doesn't really make sense, so I won't even address it, except for the final line. Yes, a lot of people have worked hard to make the US what it is, but realize how far from perfect it is, how much improvement it needs, and because of the character (or lack thereof) of some involved in shaping America, there are inherent biases interwoven all throughout its framework. Many white men who, through no fault of their own, had the privilege to progress the medical profession from something laughable to a respectable profession. However, some of these same men were the ones also working hard at creating the AMA to ensure that women and minorities stay marginal in this profession. Leaps and bounds have been made since then, but there is still a looooong way to go (if the percentages don't move you, compare the salaries of white males, to white females, and URM physicians of either gender doing the same job with the same credentials...White males still make significantly more across the board)...if you can't respect that, your whole perspective is wack.
ps - You are so far off-base. PinkIvy08 has nothing to do with Duke (fyi: Duke is not ivy-league)...it's about my sorority.
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I would hope everyone is aware of the history of race relations in the US. I think what great was trying to get at is how can someone punish/hold resentment for another individual or race because of what one thinks another or a race is thinking about him/her. How can one know what goes on in someone else's head? The article Topsecret posted said that 22% of African Americans, 34% of Latinos and 13% of whites preferred a physician of their race. Those who had no race preference AA: 65%, La: 47%, white: 75%. Based on this study, whites were the most accepting, and Latinos followed by African Americans were the most discriminating.
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It's my crazy student...what's up!!!!
Everyone knows you're going to rock the cycle this year!!!
and to the foolio who was confused about her sorority: She's skeeeeeeeeeeeeee weeeeeeeeeeing all over you right now....LOL
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he's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!!!
Hola imbecil!!!!!!!!!
....La persona lo mas estupido del mundo esta aqui!!!
Cuidado, es posible que hubiera dicho algo mas ignorante que todos.
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Since when did blacks not want white doctors?
Wasn't there an article a while back saying blacks distrust black doctors?
There was also another article saying minority groups were often overlooked and neglected by their white doctors. Perhaps this is the reason for suggested distrust?
Wasn't there an article a while back saying blacks distrust black doctors?
There was also another article saying minority groups were often overlooked and neglected by their white doctors. Perhaps this is the reason for suggested distrust?
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Two quick comments.
1. Regardless of URM, its only a small piece of the pie. Its your fault if you cant secure a portion of that other 95% of the piece for just regular folks.
2. Racial Inequality, I blame it on plants and animals and geography, and guns, and germs.
1. Regardless of URM, its only a small piece of the pie. Its your fault if you cant secure a portion of that other 95% of the piece for just regular folks.
2. Racial Inequality, I blame it on plants and animals and geography, and guns, and germs.
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