Urology resident AMA

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Hey, thanks for doing this. M2 very interested in urology here. In past talks with some of the urology faculty at my school, they've mentioned a survey saying that Urology has some of the highest burnout rates in medicine. (this article from the AMA says 52% and I remember seeing similar numbers elsewhere. This is pre-pandemic, however). They all claimed that they didn't understand why the number was so high as they were extremely satisfied with their job. From my perspective, they all seem very happy and this is a big reason why I'm interested in the field. I was hoping you could provide some more perspective on some reasons why the rate of burnout in urology is so high? Obviously you seem quite satisfied, but what about some of your colleagues?
 
Hey, thanks for doing this. M2 very interested in urology here. In past talks with some of the urology faculty at my school, they've mentioned a survey saying that Urology has some of the highest burnout rates in medicine. (this article from the AMA says 52% and I remember seeing similar numbers elsewhere. This is pre-pandemic, however). They all claimed that they didn't understand why the number was so high as they were extremely satisfied with their job. From my perspective, they all seem very happy and this is a big reason why I'm interested in the field. I was hoping you could provide some more perspective on some reasons why the rate of burnout in urology is so high? Obviously you seem quite satisfied, but what about some of your colleagues?

That study never made much sense to me. I and almost every Urologist I know are happy with their job and more importantly happy with their specialty choice. By that I mean their issues are issues with medicine in general, not the specialty. I’ve never met a urologist who was working to retire as early as possible, like I do Anesthesia or EM docs. Usually the opposite is true. Guys like practicing so work part time into their 80s.

The only things I could think of as a reason for that finding are:
1. Bad sampling
. 2. Nostalgia. By that I mean if you were a Urologist making 2 mil/year giving Lupron shots in the 90s, working harder to make 600k now might feel like a letdown. Those people should have retired, but you’d be surprised how many Boomer docs are working to support their 4th wife and 3 alimony checks.

In short, if you enter the field with realistic expectations, there’s nothing I would expect to cause burnout beyond what ails medecine as a profession. As for me? I have a great job, I make a difference for my patients, most of whom are grateful, I make great money, do awesome and challenging surgeries, and work reasonable hours. No burnout here.
 
That study never made much sense to me. I and almost every Urologist I know are happy with their job and more importantly happy with their specialty choice. By that I mean their issues are issues with medicine in general, not the specialty. I’ve never met a urologist who was working to retire as early as possible, like I do Anesthesia or EM docs. Usually the opposite is true. Guys like practicing so work part time into their 80s.

The only things I could think of as a reason for that finding are:
1. Bad sampling
. 2. Nostalgia. By that I mean if you were a Urologist making 2 mil/year giving Lupron shots in the 90s, working harder to make 600k now might feel like a letdown. Those people should have retired, but you’d be surprised how many Boomer docs are working to support their 4th wife and 3 alimony checks.

In short, if you enter the field with realistic expectations, there’s nothing I would expect to cause burnout beyond what ails medecine as a profession. As for me? I have a great job, I make a difference for my patients, most of whom are grateful, I make great money, do awesome and challenging surgeries, and work reasonable hours. No burnout here.
Thanks, those are some interesting points on why the findings are what they are. From all I've seen/heard, sounds like urology is a pretty sweet gig and I'm looking forward to learning more about it during clinical years. Can I ask if you chose to sub-specialize and if so what drew you to choosing that sub-specialty?
 
Thanks, those are some interesting points on why the findings are what they are. From all I've seen/heard, sounds like urology is a pretty sweet gig and I'm looking forward to learning more about it during clinical years. Can I ask if you chose to sub-specialize and if so what drew you to choosing that sub-specialty?
I did not sub specialize for two reasons. One is that I really like the breadth of Urology and felt well trained to practice nearly all of it. I didn’t want to pidgeonhole myself into one part of it and so I didn’t, and have a full spectrum practice with a few exclusions (complex peds, a few others). Secondly is for personal/family reasons. Surgical training is long and hard both personally and on the family. I didn’t want to uproot for 1-2 years to then move again to settle, I was ready to start my job and put down roots.

Generally speaking I think there are only 2 reasons to do a fellowship in Urology if you went to a good program. Either you want to do academics or you want a particular skill set your residency didn’t teach to a sufficient level (like gender affirming surgery for example). Incidentally this one of the nicer things about Uro. As opposed to many fields, fellowship is still quite optional rather then pseudo mandatory.
 
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Check this thread out!

Is Urology undergoing the same procedure cuts as ortho?

The OP cited needing to see 30-40+ patients to make a decent profit, with some hand surgeons making more clinic than in the OR (not sure how true that may be)

Do you see a future in Urology where sitting in clinic prescribing drugs will be more profitable than doing OR procedures?

also i know that Urology has many in office procedures which raises over-head by A LOT if i am not mistaken, do you think PP and doing in office procedures will be sustainable in the future with if urology undergoes reimbursement cuts?
 



Check this thread out!

Is Urology undergoing the same procedure cuts as ortho?

The OP cited needing to see 30-40+ patients to make a decent profit, with some hand surgeons making more clinic than in the OR (not sure how true that may be)

Do you see a future in Urology where sitting in clinic prescribing drugs will be more profitable than doing OR procedures?

also i know that Urology has many in office procedures which raises over-head by A LOT if i am not mistaken, do you think PP and doing in office procedures will be sustainable in the future with if urology undergoes reimbursement cuts?


So this is a constant issue in all fields of medicine. Medicare (and then private insurers) take something that you do, and then cut the reimbursement for it, so to make the same income you did before you now need to do more of procedure X, see more patients, etc.. The counter to this is that new procedures and billing codes are constantly being generated, which tend to reimburse better then older procedures that have slowly been cut to the bone.

Urology certainly has been subject to this in the past. TURPs used to pay several thousand dollars from Medicare and now pay closer to 500. You used to be able to buy medications wholesale like lupron to administer in clinic and then charge list price for it and make a ton on the difference (Medicare got rid of this in the 90s). Generally speaking if there is something that pays much better then average for the time it takes, Medicare will eventually put a target on it and cut it, sometimes overly so to the point of it being a money loser.

Most things in Urology are reasonably stable and hasn't had any big cuts for a while. We actually got a miniscule boost in diagnostic cysto and a few other things. A few of our newer procedures, like urolift reimburse pretty well. We haven't really had a target on our back the way that Ortho/Nsgy Spine, interventional pain, radonc, et al have. I'm sure our time will come again, it is how things work in medicine. A nice thing about Urology is that roughly speaking, clinic and OR time pay pretty similarly, at least how it is structured in my practice, so I don't feel the need to push one over the other. It's a good position to be in, because if MEdicare shifts more funds from procedural codes to E&M (clinic evaluation) codes or vice versa we will be just fine either way. For example it is estimated that the recent increase in E&M codes at the expense of some procedural codes boosts the average urologist medicare reimbursement by 6-8%.

Urology procedures in clinic definitely raise overhead, but also dramatically increase billing of technical (non-physician) fees. If you are in a well run clinic that minimizes expenses from broken scopes, sterilization, etc and negotiates good reimbursements from insurers they are a major money maker. If you break scopes all the time it may cost you money. I can't see our main clinic procedures (cysto and prostate biopsy) being cut much in the future, as they are pretty reasonable RVU values for the time/cost involved and there would be a ton of push back from our advocacy groups, but who knows.
 
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