US IMG's going for EM

[johhnybgood]

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What has been everyone's response been this season to their ERAS application? It seems very competitive for EM. I have scores 210-220/ 240-250/ pass and have only received 4 interviews, 4 wait lists, 20 + rejections. On one hand i'm quite thankful for the opportunity, but on another, I feel like I'm getting passed over simply because i'm from a foreign school.

I'd love to hear other impressions and perhaps any suggestions on how to go about getting my application looked at further?


Cheers!

 

[Doctor Bob]

I feel like I'm getting passed over simply because i'm from a foreign school.

You very likely are. I know of more than a few places that have a policy of not interviewing foreign medical grads; their applications are downloaded from ERAS, then filtered into the "decline" folder (unless the foreign medical school is something like the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland or something equally internationally prestigious).

 

[EMPD]

I hate to say it but I think Doctor Bob may be correct. There are just too many uber qualified US applicants to delve deep into the group of US IMG's. Granted, about 3% of our interviews are of US IMG's. Of these, their scores are exceptional and they either have local connections, or some incredible background. I don't agree with excluding all US IMG's. There are some really good candidates among the pool.

 

[johhnybgood]

I hate to say it but I think Doctor Bob may be correct. There are just too many uber qualified US applicants to delve deep into the group of US IMG's. Granted, about 3% of our interviews are of US IMG's. Of these, their scores are exceptional and they either have local connections, or some incredible background. I don't agree with excluding all US IMG's. There are some really good candidates among the pool.

Absolutely, I think you both touched on some great points. PD's have too many great applicants and too few spots to really think about IMG's. I'm sure the way things are trending, it will only get harder and harder for IMG's to sneak in the door for EM in the coming years, which is probably true for many other specialties as well.

Any suggestions on how to pick up those last few remaining IV slots out there without incessantly emailing or calling programs? I don't want to be "that guy." Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated!

 

[gutonc]

Absolutely, I think you both touched on some great points. PD's have too many great applicants and too few spots to really think about IMG's. I'm sure the way things are trending, it will only get harder and harder for IMG's to sneak in the door for EM in the coming years, which is probably true for many other specialties as well.

Any suggestions on how to pick up those last few remaining IV slots out there without incessantly emailing or calling programs? I don't want to be "that guy." Thanks for the feedback, it is appreciated!

Which "that guy" would you prefer to be?

"That guy" who bugged a couple of PDs with requests for interviews? or "That guy" who didn't match and wound up scrambling for a rural FM spot...or working at Starbuck's?

 

[johhnybgood]

Which "that guy" would you prefer to be?

"That guy" who bugged a couple of PDs with requests for interviews? or "That guy" who didn't match and wound up scrambling for a rural FM spot...or working at Starbuck's?

That's one thing that you should never do, don't bring Starbucks into a conversation like this. Coffee is too pure, too delicious.

I was looking for suggestions beyond sending letters of interest and calling (both of which I have done). I just don't think it helps to call them 5 times vs 2 and write email after email. Do you have experience or knowledge that says otherwise?

 

[gutonc]

That's one thing that you should never do, don't bring Starbucks into a conversation like this. Coffee is too pure, too delicious.

I was looking for suggestions beyond sending letters of interest and calling (both of which I have done). I just don't think it helps to call them 5 times vs 2 and write email after email. Do you have experience or knowledge that says otherwise?

I'm talking about calling once vs. zero times. Twice is too many. Two emails and then just walk away.

 

[Dr Terrier MD]

I hate to say it but I think Doctor Bob may be correct. There are just too many uber qualified US applicants to delve deep into the group of US IMG's. Granted, about 3% of our interviews are of US IMG's. Of these, their scores are exceptional and they either have local connections, or some incredible background. I don't agree with excluding all US IMG's. There are some really good candidates among the pool.

I am also a US IMG. I have only had 1 interview (where I did a rotation), about 4 waitlists, and 50 rejections. To be honest, while I wasn't expecting tons of interviews, with scores of high-220s/mid-240s, I was certainly expecting more than 1.

I understand there are lots of good applicants from US schools, but it can't be that they ALL have higher scores than I do. I've always been confused as to why my scores, as a US IMG, don't count the same as a student from a US school. If the Steps are standardized exams, why are they not treated that way?

 

[raotattoo]

I am also a US IMG. I have only had 1 interview (where I did a rotation), about 4 waitlists, and 50 rejections. To be honest, while I wasn't expecting tons of interviews, with scores of high-220s/mid-240s, I was certainly expecting more than 1.

I understand there are lots of good applicants from US schools, but it can't be that they ALL have higher scores than I do. I've always been confused as to why my scores, as a US IMG, don't count the same as a student from a US school. If the Steps are standardized exams, why are they not treated that way?

There are plenty of US seniors with your scores (or better) who have a similar number of interviews this year. It's not all about your IMG status.

 

[b-real]

I am also a US IMG. I have only had 1 interview (where I did a rotation), about 4 waitlists, and 50 rejections. To be honest, while I wasn't expecting tons of interviews, with scores of high-220s/mid-240s, I was certainly expecting more than 1.

I understand there are lots of good applicants from US schools, but it can't be that they ALL have higher scores than I do. I've always been confused as to why my scores, as a US IMG, don't count the same as a student from a US school. If the Steps are standardized exams, why are they not treated that way?

Standardized exam scores are only part of the package. Where you come from means a lot. As much as it may suck, US MD (and DO) applicants will get preference over Caribbean grads. This problem will only get worse for international applicants as the number of American grads equals the number of available residencies. This is compounded by the fact that EM is becoming more popular and thus more competitive year after year. It's not a meritocracy, in that American grads with lower scores will get interviews over international applicants with better scores.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

I wish it was just step 1 and 2 that was required. I would skip medical school and the debt. Just study for 4 years from books and go take the tests and do residency. I think it would be awesome for those of us who know what we want.

 

[ERdocSGU]

I applied to 98 programs. 44 denials thus far. 9 invites. (going on all of them) 1 more interview request today from detroit receiving hospital. Said that it was a waitlist but if i don't get off the waitlist they will do a video interview? Never heard of this. So I presume I can rank them.

I have scores 210-220/ 240-250/ pass and have only received 4 interviews, 4 wait lists, 20 + rejections.

I think your Step 1 might be holding you back. A lot of US applicants don't take Step 2 so for screening purposes I think Step 1 hold more weight. Congrats on the 30 point increase on Step2. Also, only 20+ rejections I'm questioning how many programs you applied to. I feel like pan-applying is key for an IMG who wants to match EM. Right now I'm batting about .100.

 

[ERdocSGU]

There are plenty of US seniors with your scores (or better) who have a similar number of interviews this year. It's not all about your IMG status.

With 220s/240s, and only getting 1 interview, it is 100% about your IMG status!! He's got 50 denials, which means he/she applied to probably 80+ programs! Any US applicant who applies to that many programs will have interviews coming out your ears. And if you have similar scores or better and are a US applicant with only 1 interview, you must have a SERIOUS red flag on your application

 

[RustedFox]

SGU grad here. Matched into EM in 2009.


I hate to say it, but the door is closing on EM for carib/IMG grads. Period. Except for a few small markets, (some of which are clearly not merit-driven markets)... its over.

It was a real fight back when I was interviewing. I was considered "lucky" by my peers to have the 9 interviews that I got. I had 240s/230s. Brilliant letters from PDs and dignitaries from my school.

I remember being on the trail and having a PD directly ask me: "So, you know that you already have one strike against you, being a Caribbean grad and all..... (insert nonsensical question here).. how do you feel about that?"

//eff it//

My best buddy and roommate applied (and matched) into EM. He had 4 interviews. He matched at his fourth-ranked place. Strong applicant. 220s/230s. EMS guy for life. Had an M.S. in international health. First author in all sorts of parasitology journal articles.

Its bizarre.

Meritocracy ? Forget it. That ship sailed back when I applied to medical schools in 2007/8.


I'm *not saying* a lot. Intentionally so.

If you're clever enough, you can figure it out.

 

[raotattoo]

With 220s/240s, and only getting 1 interview, it is 100% about your IMG status!! He's got 50 denials, which means he/she applied to probably 80+ programs! Any US applicant who applies to that many programs will have interviews coming out your ears. And if you have similar scores or better and are a US applicant with only 1 interview, you must have a SERIOUS red flag on your application

Same team, Farva.

I have plenty of interviews. Several applicants in my class (US allopathic) have scores similar to OPs, no red flags, and an equivalent interview profile. They probably didn't apply as extensively, but they're good applicants who've not heard from the majority of programs to which they applied. If you look back at the applicant threads, you'll see that several commenters note a similar experience.

I don't know what strong assumptions you brought to this year's match, nor do I know why you're so offended that I'd share the plight of my classmates with SDN, but there is less rhyme and reason to the EM match of 2013 than most applicants would like.

 

[johhnybgood]

I think your Step 1 might be holding you back. A lot of US applicants don't take Step 2 so for screening purposes I think Step 1 hold more weight. Congrats on the 30 point increase on Step2. Also, only 20+ rejections I'm questioning how many programs you applied to. I feel like pan-applying is key for an IMG who wants to match EM. Right now I'm batting about .100.[/QUOTE]

You are correct in my step 1 is not that strong, certainly not compared to the current field. I only applied to 45 program (where IMG's had matched previously). I have applied to FM as an alternative. While EM is where my true passion lies, I think FM is always a good option. You can work in the ED through FM, but just in more rural areas and less trauma centered hospitals. I'd be interested in hearing opinions about FM working in ED. Are they decently trained, adequate providers?

I think Rusted Fox probably hit the nail on the head here. ERdocSGU, congrats on the 9 IVs. By matching statistics, you should get into EM.

 

[costalgroove]

Advice for any IMG applying next year: "apply everywhere." I think it is a mistake to only apply to places that have taken IMG's. I applied to 107 programs and received 13 interviews 2 wait list. Three (4 if i get one of the waitlist) of those places I applied had either never taken IMG's or have not in at least 3 years. IMG's need to apply everywhere, you never know when something in your application will catch a PD's eye. Sure, my chances at some of the places are slim, but I have a pretty good feeling that some others would be happy to have me,

 

[Apollyon]

Same team, Farva.

I have plenty of interviews. Several applicants in my class (US allopathic) have scores similar to OPs, no red flags, and an equivalent interview profile. They probably didn't apply as extensively, but they're good applicants who've not heard from the majority of programs to which they applied. If you look back at the applicant threads, you'll see that several commenters note a similar experience.

I don't know what strong assumptions you brought to this year's match, nor do I know why you're so offended that I'd share the plight of my classmates with SDN, but there is less rhyme and reason to the EM match of 2013 than most applicants would like.

There are plenty of US seniors with your scores (or better) who have a similar number of interviews this year. It's not all about your IMG status.

This is all wholly anecdote, and, without malice, of little provenance. Your sample space is your school. You are relying on word of mouth, which, OF COURSE, everyone is telling the same truth.

It IS about IMG/FMG. US seniors with 220 on step I and zero or one or two interviews on 20 applications have at LEAST one red flag, statistically, and possibly/likely more than one. You're going to say "but my friends don't!", but, truth is, unless you are related to them or having sex with them (and maybe not even then), you don't know the whole story. And how many are you talking? 3? Out of 1400 total US senior applicants? That is not even 0.3%.

"Plenty" is vague, but, using a popular interpretation, overstating it (as to the number of US seniors with few interviews - I don't know how many IVs make up your "plenty").

 

[raotattoo]

This is all wholly anecdote, and, without malice, of little provenance. Your sample space is your school. You are relying on word of mouth, which, OF COURSE, everyone is telling the same truth.

It IS about IMG/FMG. US seniors with 220 on step I and zero or one or two interviews on 20 applications have at LEAST one red flag, statistically, and possibly/likely more than one. You're going to say "but my friends don't!", but, truth is, unless you are related to them or having sex with them (and maybe not even then), you don't know the whole story. And how many are you talking? 3? Out of 1400 total US senior applicants? That is not even 0.3%.

"Plenty" is vague, but, using a popular interpretation, overstating it (as to the number of US seniors with few interviews - I don't know how many IVs make up your "plenty").

So you're offended by the word plenty? You're offended that I know people who're having an issue with the match that you hadn't anticipated? I retract that particular word. I retract my anecdotal, non-generalized information about the struggle my actual classmates are having in this year's match.

You are both welcome to look back to other threads on this very forum at comments from other US allopathic seniors (who I am not conspiring with in any way.... wink) who'd not been receiving the expected number of interviews for their credentials. With the absurd level of emotion in your comment, I would imagine your response to this suggestion will be something like, "you can't trust them their internet peopel!!!1 unless ur having sex with them".

Do you all really think this process is meritocratic? Do you really think that all good applicants get their just dues? My only intent for my first post was to reassure an IMG that it was not specifically his IMG status preventing him from getting interviews this year, to create some solidarity with a guy who'll probably be a colleague someday. Apologies for saying anything. Please continue misinforming people. I won't interrupt again.

 

[Apollyon]

Hey, spazzo, chill a little. Offended? You seem to have some trouble with word choice (along with 'plenty'). Combine your statement of offense with that of an "absurd level of emotion" (really? Huh?), and one is left with someone who sounds really screechy. The cherry on top is the over-the-top "fine - I'll just shut up and go away now" over-reaction.

I shall make a guess here, not substantiated by me, but likely can be by more folks, that a US senior with a 200 to 210 step I is on par with an FMG with 250, if one compares the numbers of interviews. It is not a meritocracy in toto, but becomes one when the core (US seniors) are compared one to the other.

 

[RustedFox]

Hey, spazzo, chill a little. Offended? You seem to have some trouble with word choice (along with 'plenty'). Combine your statement of offense with that of an "absurd level of emotion" (really? Huh?), and one is left with someone who sounds really screechy. The cherry on top is the over-the-top "fine - I'll just shut up and go away now" over-reaction.

I shall make a guess here, not substantiated by me, but likely can be by more folks, that a US senior with a 200 to 210 step I is on par with an FMG with 250, if one compares the numbers of interviews. It is not a meritocracy in toto, but becomes one when the core (US seniors) are compared one to the other.

Haaaaaah !

 

[michigator04]

Hey, spazzo, chill a little. Offended? You seem to have some trouble with word choice (along with 'plenty'). Combine your statement of offense with that of an "absurd level of emotion" (really? Huh?), and one is left with someone who sounds really screechy. The cherry on top is the over-the-top "fine - I'll just shut up and go away now" over-reaction.

I shall make a guess here, not substantiated by me, but likely can be by more folks, that a US senior with a 200 to 210 step I is on par with an FMG with 250, if one compares the numbers of interviews. It is not a meritocracy in toto, but becomes one when the core (US seniors) are compared one to the other.

In Charting Outcomes 2011, the probability of matching curve shows that a US Senior with ~190 Step 1 has an equal chance to an independent applicant with 250. Both had a 75% match rate in 2011. (Pg. 63 of the PDF). That matches your prediction pretty closely.

 

[SeekerOfTheTree]

There is a lack of love I am sensing here.

 

[ERdocSGU]

ADVICE to future IMG applicants: As someone with more interviews than most IMGs that I know in my class, please allow me to share my recipe for success. Book as many EM rotations as possible! Don't do Peds EM and Adult EM both at Brooklyn Hospital. This does nothing for you. They might not even interview you at all... For me, I booked 4 different EM programs and got 4 interviews out it. You can get an EM letter or an invite after doing an EMS elective, a toxicology elective, or an ultrasound elective. If you don't want to be at a 4 year residency program, don't book an EM rotation at Lincoln just because its easy. Travel to do your EM rotations! Book EM rotations at places off the beaten path that take IMGs-- SUNY Upstate for example takes 3 or 4 each year and its not a Ross clinical center...those students rotated there. I think most US applicants don't want to live in the frigid upstate NY so capitalize on that fact. Absolutely do not book ER at Wyckoff hospital--they don't have an EM residency. And if you do book ER at Wyckoff, certainly don't ask them to fill out multiple SLORs for you. They aren't supposed to be filling out SLORs if they aren't residency programs. Next. Apply everywhere! The more you apply to, the more interviews you will get. I received 4 invites from programs that have zero IMGs on their roster. Next year, I could be the first. Word on the streets is Christiana Care ranked an SGU student high up on their rank list, but that person didn't rank them high enough to go there. Don't judge a book by its cover. As said before, you never know what will catch a PDs eye.