US mecial career pathway

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Hi, i'm currently a UK medical student nearing the end of my course. I am considering applying for the residency programme in the US because of its efficiency and international job prospects after completion, and also because of the impending ST jobs fiasco in the UK. I will be starting work for the USMLE step 1 in the next few months...

In the UK we do 2 years of foundation training, a broad mix of medical and surgical rotations each lasting 4 months (equivalant to internship), does anyone know if we have to complete one year or both of foundation in the UK before being eligible for residency?

Also how exactly does residency work, i.e. how many years does it last, and do you start immediatly in your chosen specialty or do you have to do some general medicine/surgery first? And is the wage really only $60k max for up to 90 hours a week!?

Thanks ever so much.

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Hiya,

I've looked into the UK system (was thinking of going to medical school there but now with NHS probs and visa changes...decided not to). I will be a first year medical student come this fall. Let me see if I can try to answer some of your questions.

The US medical program is 4 years, with year 3 and 4 similar to I guess your foundation year 1 and 2. So at your 4th year, you apply for residency training. Here you specialize (internal medicine, surgery, derm, emergency medicine, etc etc). Residency takes about 3-4 years (i.e Internal Medicine) with other specialties being longer. Afterwards you can either do a fellowship (1-2) years to specialize further (i.e. you do your residency in internal medicine but want to specialize in Cardiology). So, in comparison to the UK, I believe it's faster because you don't do Foundation Years (that is like 3/4 year of med school). During your residency years, I believe salary is around $40,000 a year and increases throughout the years. Once you pass residency, your salary increases dramatically.

So if you are finishing medical school in the UK right now and are taking the USMLE boards, you should be able to apply for residency directly I believe.

Anyone, please correct me if i'm wrong.

Good luck with it all.
 
Thanks for the reply

I have found the AMA website which lists which specialties/ sub specialities are available, and it basically looks like if I choose something medical (with the exception of things like derm and psych) I will have to do Int med first for 3 years then a fellowship. Surgery on the other hand specialises straight away, so if e.g. i want to do thoracic surgery i can specialise for 3 years. So basically if i want to do surgery coming to the US is a no brainer because it's 3 years as opposed to 6-7 odd years in the ST system in the UK. Something medical will take at least 5 years (unless i want to do psych, which i surprisingly enjoyed at medschool!).

I've heard we have to do at least foundation 1, as UK medical graduates would be no match for US grads, as we simply do not get nearly as much hands on experience during our clinical years at medschool...

So is your 'internship' included as part of your medical school training before you graduate, and if so do you get paod for it?
 
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If I may clarify, as some of the information above is incorrect:

In the US, most final year medical students apply directly to their specialty training without doing 1 or 2 house officer years first.

Most training programmes in the US are shorter than their equivalents in the UK and there is much more assurance that you will obtain your training postion and complete it.

Internship is the first year of residency and you are paid for it. Thus, it is completed after graduation from medical school. Salaries will vary from program to program, but generally start in the high 30K/year USD to mid 40K and top out around $50 K USD/year or so. It would be highly unusual to make $60 K USD as a resident, at least in the shorter training programmes (I made $57K as a fellow). US residents are not paid overtime.

Recommendations are that residents not work more than 80 hrs per week, averaged over a month. That means you can work more than 80 hrs per week as long as another week you work less. However, bear in mind that many places violate these "rules" so you should expect to work at least 80 hrs per week, maybe more, and be pleasantly suprised if you work less.

Most US residency programs include the internship in the training scheme. There are some which require a "preliminary year" in general medicine or surgery or a "transitional year" (which is similar to the 3rd year of US medical school in that you do a variety of rotations - ie, OB, Surgery, Medicine, etc.). The programs which require a prelim or transitional year either offer them or you are required to apply for them separately. Most US residencies use a centralized matching service to match final year students with open positions they have interviewed for. More info is beyond the scope of this post but you can find more info at http://www.nrmp.org or http://www.sfmatch.org (for certain specialties).

Your time frame for training in the US is off a bit. Surgery is not 3 years in the US, but rather a minimum of 5 or up to 7 years (at some programs which require 1-2 years in a research lab) after medical school to complete the surgery residency requirements.

There are VERY FEW surgical programs which specialize right away; most commonly found are programs in Plastics and Reconstructive surgery some of which match right out of medical school for a program which is 5-6 years in length. For the first time this year, a very few (around 5 programs as I recall) Vascular Surgery programs matched final year students for a 3+3 program which refers to 3 years general surgery and 3 years vascular surgery. This cuts 1 year off the traditional 5+2 of 5 years general surgery and 2 years of Vascular surgery fellowship. Using your example of Thoracic surgery, at this time, you need to complete a general surgery residency after medical school (as above, 5-7 years) then apply for and complete a Thoracic surgery fellowship which are 2-3 years in length (so a minimum of 7 years after medical school).

Internal Medicine is usually 3 years after medical school, although some spend an additional year as Chief resident, for a total of 4 years. If you desire to pursue a subspecialty of internal medicine, such as gastroenterology, then as you noted, you would apply for fellowship training - which can last from 1-3 additional years depending on the field.

There are many, many other types of residencies which are not subspecialties of surgery or internal medicine and have their own specific programs, and application processes: Derm and Psych as you note (although both require a Preliminary medicine year), Radiation Oncology, Radiology, Anesthesiology, Family Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Physical Medicine and Rehab, etc. SDN has many forums which discuss these various fields ad we haven't covered them all.

See: http://www.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcstsc/0,1238,450,00.html for more information regarding specialty training in the US by field; bear in mind that some of the information contained on FREIDA is not updated or necessarily the latest word.

It is true that in the UK, students are given less clinical, hands-on, independent training than their counterparts in the US. You do NOT have to do a "foundation" year to be able to match into a US residency, but the additional clinical experience would be helpful. Most important is your USMLE scores (Step 1 is more important than Step 2) and having some US clinical experience. That said, there are lots of opportunities to do a final year medical school elective in the US which will familiarize yourself with the US medical process as well as allowing you to meet US medical faculty who could potentially write you letters of recommendation. Most FMGs who match into a US residency program have no clinical experience beyond medical school - again, it might help you when you start internship here, but is not necessary.

At any rate, bottom line is:

- US residencies are *generally* shorter than their UK counterparts because they do not require 1-2 house officer, or "foundation" years before starting the specialty training

- US residents make less money and work longer hours than their counterparts in the UK

- US medical students have more clinical, hands-on training than those in the UK, who generally pick up those skills during their foundation years

- if you are not a US citizen, you will be limited somewhat in which residency programs (not specialties) you are eligible for based on visa status

- depending on your visa status, you may have to return home for 2 years after completing US residency to satisfy visa requirements

- some US residencies are effectively off-limits for *most* who have not completed their medical school in the US; these are the most competitive residencies and include things like Plastics, Derm, Ortho, etc.


With regard to applying to US residencies as an FMG, be aware that although ECFMG or the NRMP does not require that you have ECFMG certificate in hand or even USMLE Step 2 completed to apply for residency, programs may have their own rules. Therefore, while pretty much all require that you submit a USMLE Step 1 score, letters of recommendation and a medical school transcript, bear in mind that some may not review your application without the completed ECFMG certificate (which you cannot get until you graduate, so this may require taking a year off between med school and applying for US residency) or at least USMLE Step 2.
Hope this helps...
 
If some one gains a residency position in say Internal Medicine, but decides later to go into Derm. Could they just match again and do residency in Derm?

I'm just curious to how a physician would change their specialization later on in their career.
 
If some one gains a residency position in say Internal Medicine, but decides later to go into Derm. Could they just match again and do residency in Derm?

I'm just curious to how a physician would change their specialization later on in their career.

Yes and No.

If you participate in one of the centralized US residency matching services, you agree to accept the position to which you have matched. Therefore, if you applied for and matched into an Internal Medicine program, but then decided sometime either before or after you matched, that you didn't want to do your residency there and broke your match contract, you cannot participate in the match for the following year. You would be eligible to take a position outside of the match, however.

If you matched into Internal Medicine and somewhere along the way of completing your IM residency, you decide you wanted to pursue a residency in Derm, you are eligible to reenroll in the match provided you had not otherwise broken your earlier match agreement (which says nothing about finishing a program to which you matched).

So while technically the above is possible, every resident must be aware of the funding sources which come from Medicare. If you match into a 3 year residency, you are "funded" for 3 years; if you use 3 years and then decide you want to go back and do another residency or switch tracks, you may find yourself out of HCFA/CMS funding. This is often the case for those who originally match into a 3 year residency and then decide to pursue something longer (ie, like surgery) or who complete a residency and then go back for additional training, starting all over in another field.

If a program really wants you, they will often "eat" the extra funds it won't get from Medicare for your residency position. Obviously small programs without a lot of endowments or other funding sources are less likely to be able to do this.

It can be done - as I've mentioned before, I've seen a surgeon who quit his practice, got into a Radiology residency and then completed an IR fellowship. So its possible technically, but may be difficult.
 
mmmm it looks very difficult to us(fmg) to have a good place in US residency
so does it deserves to leave my family and my country and go thousands of miles away from them and finally take a speciality that i don't like????????
plz anybody tell me .... i really want to know!!!!
is this the dream i'm living in? does is it vaporize easily?!!!!
Kimberli Cox you made the picture clear .......
can you tell me please what are the advantages for FMG with all theses difficulities?
and what are the programs & or specialities that are a little bit easier for FMG ?
what are the options available to us(FMG)?

AGAIN DOES IT DESERVES ALL THIS EFFORT?
 
hi there.
i'm afraid u are the only one who can answer whether or not it is worth the trouble.
u will find successfull FMG who got the residency they wanted (some of whom even their top choices of schools/institutions) and other FMGs who didn't make it.

the latest match shows about 50% of FMG making into residencies. but many of those are US citizens/permanent residents and so, they don't have to worry about permission to work in the US, which can make things easier.

from my understanding, IM, psychiatry are some of the easier residencies for an FMG to get into. i think it all depends on your field and the amount of work you put into doing it.
knowing in advance you want to go to the US will help you prepare for the USLMEs and for rotations in the US, which weight heavily on whether or not you will match.

continue to find out the information u need.

you can look towards the statistics for FMG matches, but in the end, i am afraid that much of it is up to you (which is good since it is ur decision) and how well u will perform in the USLME, US rotations and who writes your references.
others in the site know more of the details, this is the general gist i have got.
 
mmmm it looks very difficult to us(fmg) to have a good place in US residency
so does it deserves to leave my family and my country and go thousands of miles away from them and finally take a speciality that i don't like????????
plz anybody tell me .... i really want to know!!!!
is this the dream i'm living in? does is it vaporize easily?!!!!
Kimberli Cox you made the picture clear .......
can you tell me please what are the advantages for FMG with all theses difficulities?
and what are the programs & or specialities that are a little bit easier for FMG ?
what are the options available to us(FMG)?

AGAIN DOES IT DESERVES ALL THIS EFFORT?

Only you can tell us whether or not it is worth the effort. Frankly, many US physicians are amazed at the sacrifice FMGs make to work in the US. Even here on SDN we have seen posts from FMGs trained as surgical specialists who then couldn't get into the same training in the US and had to "settle" for a different field.

The advantages or reasons for coming to the US are often stated as:

- little to no restriction on what you can do once you have trained here; ie, there is little of the situation you often see outside of the US where the house officer toils for years, trying to get into his specialty, only to find that he is being blocked because of some personal vendetta against him by a faculty member. Of course, that does happen here, but generally not as much.

- higher salaries

- more technologically advanced

- more respect (in some countries being a physician is not as highly respected)

- being closer to family in the US

- more job opportunities

The following specialties tend to be easier for FMGs (please note that in any specialty there will be programmes which are more competitive and matching into one of them may be very difficult):

Internal Medicine
Psychiatry
Family Medicine
Pathology
Pediatrics


Hope this helps.
 
hi! i would like to get advice for my sis who is a FMG. she does not want to spend 5-7 yrs again (max 3 yrs is ok) for the residencies and long working hours like 80hrs/week as she is a housewife. pls advice us if there are other medical related career or option for her. apology in advance if my post is odd but i do not have any idea on medical career so any advice would be grateful. thank you
 
thanks guys for yr replies , i want to know if there is any possiple chance (if even very minimal) to take rsidency in any speciality other than those mentioned above?
and if i get high score does this make it easier to take residency which is competitive and somehow very very difficult for a FMG ?
i want to know the residencies which are off-limits for FMG even with high score?
and how to be an attending in a University Hospital:D ?
 
is there is anybody here interested to answer my questions???????:eek:
 
thanks guys for yr replies , i want to know if there is any possiple chance (if even very minimal) to take rsidency in any speciality other than those mentioned above?

Sure. You are not restricted to the above residencies, they are just MUCH easier to get a spot in for FMGs.

and if i get high score does this make it easier to take residency which is competitive and somehow very very difficult for a FMG ?

Sure. High USMLE scores are about your ONLY ticket, outside of connections, to getting a competitive US residency, in most cases.

i want to know the residencies which are off-limits for FMG even with high score?

Technically, none. Practically, Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, Radiation Oncology, Orthopedics, ENT, Urology would be considered out of the realm of possibilty for most FMGs. There are always exceptions, though.

and how to be an attending in a University Hospital:D ?

Complete a residency and apply for the job. There is no "trick" to being an attending in a university hospital - except for being Board Eligible in your specialty. The trade journals are full of ads for such jobs; although many do require you either be a US citizen, have PR, or a valid work visa.
 
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is there is anybody here interested to answer my questions???????:eek:

You have to give people a chance to see and address your query. This forum is not as heavily traveled as the others. Besides, we're all volunteers here, many with busy lives as residents or attendings who don't always have time to answer questions on SDN as quickly as we (or others) would like.

In addition, your questions have been asked so many times here by others that the answers are available by doing a search of the forum.
 
Kimberli Cox, thanks alot for the answers :) and i'm so sorry if i bothered you by thinking in a selfish way:D
but really these inquries are very important to me , and the answers can chang my destiny
thanks alot again and i wish you the best with your life;)
 
If some one gains a residency position in say Internal Medicine, but decides later to go into Derm. Could they just match again and do residency in Derm?

In addition to the funding issue, there is another snag with changing specialties for non-citizen non-permanentresident FMGs:

- if you train on a J1 visa: You are allowed 1 change of specialty after a maximum of 2 years from the start of the visa.

- if you train on an H1b visa: The length of the visa is restricted to a maximum of 6 years (with exceptions). So, if you finished 3 years of IM and then matched into lets say derm, you are going to burn through all of your 'H time'. This can be a problem if you want to stay in the US after residency bc it doesn't leave you 'H time' to start your first job (which typically sponsors you for permanent residency).
 
Kimberly,

i didnt think Patho was IMG friendly. I do know neuro and nuclear medicine are both IMG friendly. I always wondered if Preventive Med (and the fellowships or Occupational, Aerospace and Underwater Med) are IMG friendly. Also general surgery is getting easier.
 
Kimberly,

i didnt think Patho was IMG friendly.

It used to be FMG-land, without some basic russian it was hard to get a verbal path report at a lot of east-coast hospitals. In recent years, it has tightened up quite a bit and many of the FMGs that land path slots seem to have a fair amount of prior training or research experience.

Also general surgery is getting easier.

There was a little blip in 2002/2003 when it was possible to get into GS or OB/Gyn as an FMG (without some inside track or research background). But since then, both are right up there again.
 
Kimberly,

i didnt think Patho was IMG friendly. I do know neuro and nuclear medicine are both IMG friendly. I always wondered if Preventive Med (and the fellowships or Occupational, Aerospace and Underwater Med) are IMG friendly. Also general surgery is getting easier.

Path has long been the bastion (along with Psychiatry and Neurology) of FMGs. True, it has become more popular with AMGs as of late, but still is quite open to FMGs, albeit with more competitive applications. But I would in no way call it unfriendly toward IMGs yet.

I don't know much about Preventive Med - the number of positions, applications, etc. to be able to comment.

Where did you get the idea that general surgery was getting easier? Its gotten incredibly more competitive over the last 3 years, with each year fewer and fewer unmatched spots (like 8 or 9 3 years ago, 2 last year, 1 this year). It has moved up in the competitiveness realm considerably.
 
In addition to the funding issue, there is another snag with changing specialties for non-citizen non-permanentresident FMGs:

- if you train on a J1 visa: You are allowed 1 change of specialty after a maximum of 2 years from the start of the visa.

- if you train on an H1b visa: The length of the visa is restricted to a maximum of 6 years (with exceptions). So, if you finished 3 years of IM and then matched into lets say derm, you are going to burn through all of your 'H time'. This can be a problem if you want to stay in the US after residency bc it doesn't leave you 'H time' to start your first job (which typically sponsors you for permanent residency).

Assuming i blitz the USMLE and get into general surgery for 5 years, and want to subspecialise for 2 years, in e.g. thoracic surgery, with a view to return permanently to the UK following. Is more likely than not that my visa will expire before completing the full 7 years?

It sounds like as an IMG i'm better off going medical and doing IM for 3yrs and, e.g. cardio for 3 more, or doing psych for 4 (which i quite liked at medschool, but didn't have to worry about getting shot or stabbed), anything to avoid the new system in the UK (40:1 applicant to place ratio, 30,000 docs out of work next year, i kid you not!)
 
Assuming i blitz the USMLE and get into general surgery for 5 years, and want to subspecialise for 2 years, in e.g. thoracic surgery, with a view to return permanently to the UK following. Is more likely than not that my visa will expire before completing the full 7 years?

If you manage to get a 5 year categorical position right from the get-go, 7 years would be enough for a classic 5+2 subspecialty scheme. In surgery, a good number of FMGs seem to be stuck doing 1-2 prelim surgery years before they can land a categorical spot. In that setting, 7 years would not be enough. But I wouldn't worry about that too much. If you can get into general surgery, things will work out for you one way or another.
Btw. some of the surgical subspecialties are moving away from the 5+2 scheme towards a 3+3 system (3 years general, 3 years subspecialty). The breed of the general surgeon who does anything from hangnails to arch replacements is dying.

About going back to the UK: The UK specialty colleges have a fair amount of chauvinism when it comes to how highly (or lowly) they value education that wasn't done under their own supervision. If you want to return to the UK and eventually get a consultant position, you will need a 'CCST' (certificate of completion of specialist training) which the postgraduate training board issues based on an evaluation of your credentials by the respective specialty college. Some are rather open minded, in radiology e.g. it is entirely possible to obtain a CCST with a US education. Others like anesthesia have rather unreasonable expectations and try to keep funny looking foreigners out with all the power they have. I don't know how it is in general surgery.
 
maybe i am wrong about general surgery. i just assumed it was getting easier as it was becoming less popular with amgs. but nuclear medicine i feel is quite unknown to most IMGs. maybe even those who like radio but overlook it. perhaps a sticky should be made listing all the different specialities no one knows of like PM&R, etc.

Path has long been the bastion (along with Psychiatry and Neurology) of FMGs. True, it has become more popular with AMGs as of late, but still is quite open to FMGs, albeit with more competitive applications. But I would in no way call it unfriendly toward IMGs yet.

I don't know much about Preventive Med - the number of positions, applications, etc. to be able to comment.

Where did you get the idea that general surgery was getting easier? Its gotten incredibly more competitive over the last 3 years, with each year fewer and fewer unmatched spots (like 8 or 9 3 years ago, 2 last year, 1 this year). It has moved up in the competitiveness realm considerably.
 
is there is anybody here interested to answer my questions???????:eek:

Try Australia, alot of UK grads are applying for it, slightly longer path, but still worth it and alot easier to get in.
 
maybe i am wrong about general surgery. i just assumed it was getting easier as it was becoming less popular with amgs.

That's where your error is...it is NOT becoming less popular with AMGs, but rather more. 7-8 years ago was the nadir of popularity for general surgery amongst AMGs...its probably one the reasons I matched! A quick visit to the medical student and surgery forums will show you the level of interest as well as fear over the possibility of not matching.

However, it has slowly risen in popularity, as most specialties cycle, to the point where in the last couple of years many AMGs go unmatched. This is often felt to be due to old information - students thinking surgery isn't competitive, so they grossly overestimate their competitiveness and don't have a strong application or a smart one.

but nuclear medicine i feel is quite unknown to most IMGs. maybe even those who like radio but overlook it. perhaps a sticky should be made listing all the different specialities no one knows of like PM&R, etc.

One can simply look at FREIDA for a list of nearly every medical specialty known to man; its not necessary to have sticky, IMHO.
 
First, a little bit more about me.

British Citizen.
Oxbridge graduate (Cambridge preclinical, Oxford Clinical).
Luckily decided to do USMLE during medical school and got decent scores (Step 1 99/261, STEP 2 99/273) and passed CS last year.
Did Paediatric Cardiology Elective at Johns Hopkins in 2004 so have some USCE.

After 2 years of Paediatric training in England, have been well and truly shafted by MMC. Likely to be unemployed come August :--(

Am passionate about wanting to be a Paediatrician, so thinking of applying through the Match this year.

These are my (conflicting) priorities-
1)I want a paediatric residency (non-negotiable)
2)I would like to A)go on to a fellowship and B) be able to practice in the States afterwards

3)By inference A) would require being accepted by a prestigious programme but B) would require an institution willing to sponsor IMG's for the H1B visa.

Here are my questions

1) How competitive (if at all) will I be?
2)How many and what kind of institutions should I apply to?
Only ones offering H1B?
Only ones who have taken IMG's in the past?
Any point in applying to the top tier programs?
3) Any point in applying to dozens of places to maximise one's chances?
4)Anything to be gained by doing another elective/observership in the states?
5)Is it wise to contact individual programme directors directly?

So many questions, so few answers.

Any suggestions gratefully received.
Cheers,
Harshan
 
1) How competitive (if at all) will I be?
You will undoubtedly get A pediatric residency. Don't know whether you'll make it into one of the freestanding childrens hospitals.

2)How many and what kind of institutions should I apply to?

Broadly spread, university and community. As many as you can afford.

Only ones offering H1B?

If your priority is to stay in the US afterwards, this is a big issue.

However: Many fellowships don't sponsor H1b, so some peds and IM residents who are lucky to get an H1b initially have to eat the rat later on for fellowship. So often enough, H1bs have to take a couple of years work as an attending until they get their green-card and move on to fellowship later.


Only ones who have taken IMG's in the past?

Few peds programs haven't taken IMGs in the past.

Any point in applying to the top tier programs?
Yes. Sometimes they have a more open ear for well qualified foreign applicants. You have prior experience, you come from prestigious medical schools, your step1 and step2 scores are off the scales, why not ?

3) Any point in applying to dozens of places to maximise one's chances?
To some extent yes. If you can afford it, apply away.
4)Anything to be gained by doing another elective/observership in the states?
No.
5)Is it wise to contact individual programme directors directly?
Yes.
 
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