US state licensing requirements for IMG's

[jaketheory]

i know this types of things are talked about a lot, so i apologize if i've overlooked a relevant post.

i know each state has their own requirements for IMG's. I know California has a list of approved/disapproved schools and that your school must appear on the approved list even if it does not appear on the disapproved list. I also know numerous other states use the CA list.

I'm posting because i suspect there are some states that formally require IMG's to have completed 2 years preclinical basic sciences in their medical degree. I also know CA and probably other states specify what clinical subjects and believe there is a good chance Aussie clinical curriculums probably wouldn't meet these specified clinical requirements unless electives are selected wisely. so i wonder any states specify what preclinical basic science subjects are required. i'm trying to determine what aussie schools meet the most number of US state licensing requirements.

Monash Gippsland and Uni of Melbourne both only have 1 year preclinical basic science. i know additional basic science is scattered throughout the clinical years but think it would be difficult to document for US state licensing authorities. A journal article came out earlier this year reviewing the anatomy content of all Aus and NZ med courses and it noted that there was difficulty in assessing the total anatomy content of some courses because it was spread throughout the course rather than just in discrete units of study in anatomy. if there are states specifically requiring 2 years, I think Monash and Melbourne would not qualify one for a license in those states.

Also, the grad-entry stream at Western Australia is described as being 4.5 years, consisting of a 7 month bridging component before joining the undergraduate entry students in year 3 of the 6 year undergrad course. Years 4 through 6 are clincial years, thus grad entry students get basic science in the bridging component and year 3 (of the undergrad course). given this description, it would seem the UWA grad-entry course does not offer 2 years basic science either. however, i looked into the UWA curriculum and the bridging component is an integrated 25 week teaching period and the other year 3 units of study are listed as following the traditional semester calendar of 13 weeks per semester. thus, the bridging component is actually a full academic calendar year and the course is actually a full 5 years. just saying.

anyone know if any states require 2 years basic science or have specific basic science subject requirements for a medical license?

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[PacificBlue2012]

Did you contact the CA medical board? They have a list of all approved international schools. There are many US medical schools that also have less than 2 years of preclinical education. I think the age of the school is something you should also look at, Colorado has a rule that the school must be open for a certain number of years. The most established Grad Entry programs are Flinders, USyd, UQ, UMelbourne, and UWa. Monash Gippsland is a brand new program. Wollongong is also a new school, and its clinical program is very different from most schools with a heavy rural and office based emphasis.

The one clear advantage that most Australian schools have over the Carribbean programs is that licensure issues are far less and they do not have the stigma either. These schools are legit institutions of higher learning. Most of my friends who interviewed for residencies found there was no real issue of a stigma and in fact many PDs were intrigued by their Australian experience.

Two doctors from WA won the Nobel Prize a few years ago, and also more recently Dr. Blackburn won it in 2009. Most people I know in the US regard Australian higher education very highly.

 

[jaketheory]

Did you contact the CA medical board? They have a list of all approved international schools. There are many US medical schools that also have less than 2 years of preclinical education. I think the age of the school is something you should also look at, Colorado has a rule that the school must be open for a certain number of years. The most established Grad Entry programs are Flinders, USyd, UQ, UMelbourne, and UWa. Monash Gippsland is a brand new program. Wollongong is also a new school, and its clinical program is very different from most schools with a heavy rural and office based emphasis.

The one clear advantage that most Australian schools have over the Carribbean programs is that licensure issues are far less and they do not have the stigma either. These schools are legit institutions of higher learning. Most of my friends who interviewed for residencies found there was no real issue of a stigma and in fact many PDs were intrigued by their Australian experience.

Two doctors from WA won the Nobel Prize a few years ago, and also more recently Dr. Blackburn won it in 2009. Most people I know in the US regard Australian higher education very highly.

i'm quite familiar with California. have i contacted them? sure. and theyve never responded, but that wasnt what this thread was about. i know CA's requirements. i'm wondering if anyone happens to know if other states have specific requirements as far as basic science. prefer to ask here than try to trudge through all 50 states. it isnt even that easy to find the requirements for each state. they often dont specifically say on their website. thus, was looking for people that might happen to know some things about it already.

i'm interested in keeping as many doors open as possible. that means satisfying CA. but my understanding is that, like the US dept of education, they will only recognize a school if its graduated at least 2 cohorts. most of the newer schools have not yet. wollongong will graduate its 2nd cohort end of next year.

i know there are US schools with less than 2 years preclinical. Duke has only 1 year. but from what i've seen, the state licensing boards have no requirements for US grads, but they do for IMG's. for instance, i'm pretty sure the CA medical board deems any grad of an accreditted US or Canadian school eligible; however, for IMG's they have all these requirements as far as how many weeks for this clerkship and that one. thus, i dont think US schools having less than 2 years even matters for IMG's -IMG's didnt go to US schools.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Then you should probably stick to the more established programs. I also think ANU has a pretty strong program. Dr. Doherty of Nobel prize fame does research there.

 

[jaketheory]

Then you should probably stick to the more established programs. I also think ANU has a pretty strong program. Dr. Doherty of Nobel prize fame does research there.

yeah, that doesnt help. As noted Melbourne has only 1 year of preclinical and if states require more than 1 year, that will F me. UWA's grad entry stream is 5 years, at least through their last MBBS cohort's intake in 2012. they start their 4 year MD in 2014 and i'm pretty sure, unlike Melbourne, it will have 2 years basic science, but i'm not waiting til 2014. UQ is so bloated it would be my last preference.

ANU graduated their 2nd cohort last year but isnt recognized by US dept of Education or California. ANU isnt marketing heavily to internationals, especially not to Americans, so they havent been pushing recognition. i dont think they view it as worth the effort.

of the new schools only Wollongong seems to be pushing for recognition in the US. their admissions person has told me and posted about her contacting both the US Dept of Education about being able to distribute US Stafford loans once they are eligible (graduate 2 classes) as well as getting recognized by CA medical board.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

yeah, that doesnt help. As noted Melbourne has only 1 year of preclinical and if states require more than 1 year, that will F me. UWA's grad entry stream is 5 years, at least through their last MBBS cohort's intake in 2012. they start their 4 year MD in 2014 and i'm pretty sure, unlike Melbourne, it will have 2 years basic science, but i'm not waiting til 2014. UQ is so bloated it would be my last preference.

ANU graduated their 2nd cohort last year but isnt recognized by US dept of Education or California. ANU isnt marketing heavily to internationals, especially not to Americans, so they havent been pushing recognition. i dont think they view it as worth the effort.

of the new schools only Wollongong seems to be pushing for recognition in the US. their admissions person has told me and posted about her contacting both the US Dept of Education about being able to distribute US Stafford loans once they are eligible (graduate 2 classes) as well as getting recognized by CA medical board.

If you have PR why would you want to take out loans? Anyway those more established four year programs are pretty solid for US licensure. UQ, USyd, Flinders, UWa are very solid schools.

UNSW has been an undergraduate entry school for years as well and is also a CA approved school. U of Adelaide, Tasmania, and Newcastle as well.

If you do a search on the web you can find some Australian graduates doing residency in the US. I found quite a few, and some of them are in some excellent programs. Even the visa reject got into a residency program at a large university hospital on the East Coast.

And in all honestly, I do not even see the appeal in going back to the USA. Especially with the way things are and I am certain its only going to get worse, health care reform is scaring a lot of doctors and medical students who are taking on big debts, I only see things getting worse over there. Australia offers a great way of life for doctors. Between the US and Australia, Australia beats America hands down. I turned away two American medical schools to go to USyd and am totally happy with my decision.

 

[jaketheory]

If you have PR why would you want to take out loans?

just so happens i do not have $120,000 laying around. student contribution for a commonwealth supported medical place is roughly $10k and living expenses around $20k times 4 years. after next year i will be eligible for centrelink which i think will cover about 2/3 my living expenses. after another 2 years i will be eligible for citizenship, which would allow me to defer my student contribution. that still leaves me needing $50k. at most schools id also need a car, which last i heard, are not being given out by the government.

Anyway those more established four year programs are pretty solid for US licensure. UQ, USyd, Flinders, UWa are very solid schools.

yes, they are all on the CA list (as well as a few others). like i mentioned, UWA is actually 5 years currently.

UNSW has been an undergraduate entry school for years as well and is also a CA approved school. U of Adelaide, Tasmania, and Newcastle as well.

i have researched all the schools. UNSW is 6 years. it is possible to get advanced standing, but probably unlikely to get more than a year. more importantly, they weight your high school gpa 50% even for graduates and have are incredibly competitive (as are most all undergrad entry courses). I think you need an entrance score around 98%+. with my high school gpa I'd probably need a university gpa of something like 5/4.0 to get an interview. not possible.

Adelaide does not take graduates at all. Tasmania and Newcastle are both options, but not the best given they are both 5 years. That is more money i have to spend on tuition and living expenses, but more importantly, one less year earning the salary of an attending physician.

If you do a search on the web you can find some Australian graduates doing residency in the US. I found quite a few, and some of them are in some excellent programs. Even the visa reject got into a residency program at a large university hospital on the East Coast.

i dont question that. i'm just worried individual states have specific requirements. and from what i've read, the state licensing requirements dont really come in to play until after residency. for example, theres a big spit about AUA, a Caribean school. apparently Arkansas blacklisted their grads because they werent listed on Cali's approved list (though they were not on Cali's dissapproved list either). some arkansas residents graduated from AUA with plans to return to AUA either after med school or after residency. but then Arkansas blacklisted AUA grads. these grads then sued the Arkansas govt and the Ark medical board changed their policy, but one of the couples involved in the suit had already signed a countract to work in rural Alabama. point is that, you can apply to residencies, but you arent guaranteed to get accepted where you want to train. thats generally only 4 years. but if the state where you want to work doesnt recognize your degree, then you may never be able to work there. thus i'm curious if anyone knows about specific states requiring basic sciences.

And in all honestly, I do not even see the appeal in going back to the USA. Especially with the way things are and I am certain its only going to get worse, health care reform is scaring a lot of doctors and medical students who are taking on big debts, I only see things getting worse over there. Australia offers a great way of life for doctors. Between the US and Australia, Australia beats America hands down. I turned away two American medical schools to go to USyd and am totally happy with my decision.

the appeal is that i have family and friends there. that isnt drawing me back now, but it could in the future. my parents are amost 60. they will not be around forever and when people get ill they need people to help them. i have 2 nephews. if something were to happen to my brother and his wife, someone would need to raise them. if i do specialty training in Australia and later move to the US, for whatever reason, my specialty training will not be recongized in the US and i will have to repeat training. there are very few exeptions. some i know about are that the American Board of Family Medicine has an agreement with the Royal Australian COllege of General Practitioners. But there is a real catch 22 here. As a fellow of the RACGP, you are eligible to sit the ABFM certification exam provided you have a valid US license. but to fet a US license you have to do a US residency. There are 2 states that only require one year of residency for an IMG to get a license. Most require 2 years and some require 3 years. Thus, even under this agreement, you'd have to retrain at least 1 year, but unless you are ok with living in wisconsin or wyoming you'll retrain at least 2 years. another exception is internal medicine. The ABIM will allow you to get credit for R-1 if you have completed at least 3 years of internal medicine training abroad. For 3 years training, you get a max of 1 year credit, and i doubt internship counts, because that is not categorically internal medicine. in fact, the RMO year, which is the first year of basic physician training is not categoricaly internal medicine either, nor are electives during physician training that are not in internal medicine (duh). so in effect, one may likely get less than a single year credit for 3 or more years training abroad.

holy ****, i need a new hobby.

 

[PacificBlue2012]

Everyone has to do their own thing, my parents moved over here, they love it, also a lot of people from my parents' home country live in Sydney. I have been an Aussie citizen for the last couple of years. I can tell you the DIAC is way better in dealing with family migration than the INS which is a nightmare.

If I went back to North America, I would go to Canada, its easier to work in Canada with Australian qualifications than in the US, but this seems to be the case mainly for GPs, I am not sure about other areas.