Siamese

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After residency, I've strongly considered practicing medicine in another country. I'd like to become more informed about this option. It's pointless to belabor the numerous reasons of why medicine is not what it used to be, and not a fulfilling profession for many. In the US, medicine is a business, and that's hard to stomach at times, so I wanted to be more proactive about finding alternative ways to be happy practicing medicine. Long story short, I was wondering what the process is for a US trained physician to practice abroad or in another country (i.e. Canada). Are there restrictions that make it easier/harder for different types of doctors (PCP's vs. specialists) to practice in other countries? Could specialty choice affect ability to practice outside the US? Can someone direct me to resources to learn about this? Thank you.
 

medicinesux

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I hear more and more about US docs entertaining the idea of practicing overseas. Who would've thunk 10-20 years ago that US physicians would even entertain the idea of going abroad to practice medicine? Oh how times change! I sometimes wonder if practicing and living in some radical Islamic state couldn't possibly be more oppressive than working in the US healthcare system. Or how working in some inner US city ghetto hospital makes volunteering for Doctors Without Borders in the former Belgian Congo seem like an escape to paradise. Seriously, at the rate medicine continues to spiral down the tubes in America, we will see more us docs in foreign hospitals than filipino nurses!
 

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Winged Scapula

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In many places, specialty choice does affect ability to work.

Outside of Canada, bear in mind that simply completing residency training does not = attending. Many specialists work years in a quasi residency situation before getting a consultant position. This is quite a bit different than in the US where residency = attending (job market not withstanding).

Canada and the US territories are the best choice, as the EU is pretty strict in terms of citizenship and jobs.
 

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Aus/NZ have good opportunities as well, at least that's what the recruiters say :)
 

ringhal

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I spent time in New Zealand and worked with several US trained radiologists. Getting qualified or certified to work in other countries - at least in the UK and its former colonies, is not too difficult with US board certification. I'd definitely consider working in NZ. And maybe Australia if I could learn to deal with the huge, poisonous spiders and the 17 species of cobra native to the country...
 
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frank51

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The problem is that at the time being, even with all the BS, US docs still make more money relative to docs practicing in Australia, New Zealand, etc. However, I'm betting that with cut backs in reimbursements and the coming inflation in the US, things will start to change.
 

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The problem is that at the time being, even with all the BS, US docs still make more money relative to docs practicing in Australia, New Zealand, etc. However, I'm betting that with cut backs in reimbursements and the coming inflation in the US, things will start to change.
This is a common misconception. Of course, specialty does play a role... While Kiwi doctors are notoriously underpaid, Australians do quite well.
 
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frank51

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This is a common misconception. Of course, specialty does play a role... While Kiwi doctors are notoriously underpaid, Australians do quite well.
Definitely possible, I'm sure its not just Australia, but all over the world, and probably in asia there are opportunities for US trained docs, finding out about those opportunities is another story.
 
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Can someone expand on what the EU requirements are for US trained doctors, specifically neurologists? Does a US residency in neurology equate to the same in the EU?

Thanks!!
 

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Can someone expand on what the EU requirements are for US trained doctors, specifically neurologists? Does a US residency in neurology equate to the same in the EU?

Thanks!!
to get better help, google the name of the country plus the word "doctor job" and you may find some helpful job search or recruiter sites. sometimes these sites assist you in placement of a job in that country.

you could also contact the country's medical council--usually they have a website and it usually lists all their requirements and what to do to get into a position as well as visa info.

In most countries (possibly all) your completed US residency education counts toward getting a full fledged physician job. For example, i know someone who is a US trained physician that worked in NZ for a while and he had no trouble finding that spot. I know you can get jobs in this manner in the EU as well...like consultant jobs.
 
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gutonc

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In most countries (possibly all) your completed US residency education counts toward getting a full fledged physician job. For example, i know someone who is a US trained physician that worked in NZ for a while and he had no trouble finding that spot. I know you can get jobs in this manner in the EU as well...like consultant jobs.
I like how you extrapolate from "you can do locums work in A/NZ after residency" to "you can practice independently in any country in the world if you train in the US."

The former is more or less correct. The latter is so patently false I don't even know where to start.
 

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Can someone expand on what the EU requirements are for US trained doctors, specifically neurologists? Does a US residency in neurology equate to the same in the EU?

Thanks!!
Agree with gutonc...you can't just show up in the EU with your US residency and expect to work. For one thing, training is shorter here in the US and your qualifications must be verified. This link may help.
 

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for example, in the UK you need to go through this process to become a specialist:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/specialist_registration.asp#I_have_a_specialist_qualification

but i am sure your training in the US counts. i've talked to them before. if i had full training i could have gotten a consultant job. but i can probably qualify to get into their residency only, since i haven't completed residency yet. of course you don't just walk in and get the job--no. you have to go through registration and licensure in that country first, not to mention take care of visa issues.

talk to these locums organizations. they can help you through the process. don't let anyone discourage you from at least asking to find out what you qualify for.
 
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for example, in the UK you need to go through this process to become a specialist:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/registration_applications/specialist_registration.asp#I_have_a_specialist_qualification

but i am sure your training in the US counts. i've talked to them before. if i had full training i could have gotten a consultant job. but i can probably qualify to get into their residency only, since i haven't completed residency yet. of course you don't just walk in and get the job--no. you have to go through registration and licensure in that country first, not to mention take care of visa issues.

talk to these locums organizations. they can help you through the process. don't let anyone discourage you from at least asking to find out what you qualify for.

UK and US don't recognize reciprocal training. I know first hand, I trained in the UK.
 

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UK and US don't recognize reciprocal training. I know first hand, I trained in the UK.
That's not quite correct.

The UK has a process through which some or all of the US training can be recognized, depending on the specialty/Royal College.

The US does not, although some individual US academic employers do. I know several UK educated people practicing in their specialty here in the US WITHOUT having gone through US training. (eg Stanford, and one of the Chicago places.)
 
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That's not quite correct.

The UK has a process through which some or all of the US training can be recognized, depending on the specialty/Royal College.

The US does not, although some individual US academic employers do. I know several UK educated people practicing in their specialty here in the US WITHOUT having gone through US training. (eg Stanford, and one of the Chicago places.)
I know a few people who moved from UK to US too, but they were all trained many years ago. I recently met someone from my institute (one of the biggest names) in Neurology who had finished his Royal College exams too. He said there was a side track under which he could see patients and work on clinical research without going through Steps 1/2/3, etc., however he wasn't considered a clinician per se-couldn't even use his Dr.title.

I have enquired about it to the appropriate authorities in my specialty-I won't even get 1-2 years credit in residency, with or without ECFMG Certification.

Maybe as you said, it could be specialty dependent, and the right connections always help.

If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear from you.
 

Apollyon

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Canada and the US territories are the best choice, as the EU is pretty strict in terms of citizenship and jobs.
Huh? US territories? Um...those are not foreign (as to which the OP enquired).

There are 6 US territories: DC, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Northern Marianas Islands. (Forget the Minor Outlying Islands, like Howland and Midway and Kingman Reef and Palmyra Atoll - none are inhabited.) The first two have med schools (3 each), but the last four don't. However, none are pushovers for medical licensure, and all are still fully under US law.
 

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Huh? US territories? Um...those are not foreign (as to which the OP enquired).

There are 6 US territories: DC, Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Northern Marianas Islands. (Forget the Minor Outlying Islands, like Howland and Midway and Kingman Reef and Palmyra Atoll - none are inhabited.) The first two have med schools (3 each), but the last four don't. However, none are pushovers for medical licensure, and all are still fully under US law.
Thanks for the lesson Apollyon. :rolleyes:

However, as someone who has lived in one of those territories as a child and traveled to several others, I am WELL aware that they are not foreign and that they are still under the purveyance of US law, nor did I say or mean to imply that it would be easier for her to get a license there than anyway. But way to read into my reply.

And while the OP might have asked about working in foreign countries, I thought it reasonable to point out that if she didn't want to work in the US mainland proper, the *easiest* options for someone trained here are to work in Canada or outside the US in US territories (see how I continually here and in my earlier response use the abbreviation US - which might imply that I actually know they are US ). We don't know exactly what her issues are with US healthcare...they may be solved by being in a different environment, especially one that doesn't require her to retrain or train for additional years as it might in other countries.
 
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ozzidoc

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I know a few people who moved from UK to US too, but they were all trained many years ago. I recently met someone from my institute (one of the biggest names) in Neurology who had finished his Royal College exams too. He said there was a side track under which he could see patients and work on clinical research without going through Steps 1/2/3, etc., however he wasn't considered a clinician per se-couldn't even use his Dr.title.

I have enquired about it to the appropriate authorities in my specialty-I won't even get 1-2 years credit in residency, with or without ECFMG Certification.

Maybe as you said, it could be specialty dependent, and the right connections always help.

If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear from you.

Which specialty? I've come across an attending anesthesiologist/anaesthetist and a peds radiologist in California, and then two Fellows, both of whom have the USMLEs but are not board certified. One in Texas - urology, another in surgery in Chicago.

These people were either head-hunted or actively approached the departments in question.
 

gutonc

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Which specialty? I've come across an attending anesthesiologist/anaesthetist and a peds radiologist in California, and then two Fellows, both of whom have the USMLEs but are not board certified. One in Texas - urology, another in surgery in Chicago.

These people were either head-hunted or actively approached the departments in question.
Many states have a limited license option for "foreign scholars" that does not require training in the US or taking the steps. From the standpoint of practice, it puts you at the same level as a new intern who does not qualify for full licensure yet and whose work is technically overseen by a licensed supervising physician. They can't bill insurance or Medicare and will have very limited hospital privileges.

These folks aren't out there making $500K a year in private practice derm or anything like that.
 

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Many states have a limited license option for "foreign scholars" that does not require training in the US or taking the steps. From the standpoint of practice, it puts you at the same level as a new intern who does not qualify for full licensure yet and whose work is technically overseen by a licensed supervising physician. They can't bill insurance or Medicare and will have very limited hospital privileges.

These folks aren't out there making $500K a year in private practice derm or anything like that.
You're conflating two issues there. The first is what you described - in NYC, they called them "house officers" (just that - generic), who were like residents, but were not on any track. One guy, who had been a urologist in the Philippines, had a "limited permit" from the state (so he could write non-controlled Rxs). Even if "limited", he ran the whole clinic. (This was at a hospital where I rotated - I don't know if that extrapolates borough, city, or statewide.) The other side of the coin, though, is the "expert" - at Duke, there was a guy from the UK who was in anesthesiology, and he worked the ASC only. He didn't have to retrain, but he could only work at Duke - nowhere else. He was making bank.
 

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I SUMMON THIS THREAD FROM THE DEPTHS!!!!!


Is it still relatively easy for an american to practice in Canada? I'm a dual citizen with Canada and I always thought that I would be extremely difficult to live in Canada once I made the choice to do my residency in America. Thanks!
 

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I SUMMON THIS THREAD FROM THE DEPTHS!!!!!


Is it still relatively easy for an american to practice in Canada? I'm a dual citizen with Canada and I always thought that I would be extremely difficult to live in Canada once I made the choice to do my residency in America. Thanks!
As I understand it, if you're a Canadian citizen it's not that bad... depending on the specialty. The problem ends up being many specialties have shorter training in the US than in Canada. IM for example is 4 years there, so to practice you need a fourth year of residency, whether thats a 1 year fellowship or something else. There's probably exceptions to the rule and I'm certainly not an expert.

I think if the US residency is equal to or longer than the Canadian one (like FM in Canada is only 2 years), you're pretty portable.
 

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This thread raises my hackles. You can bet that many of the people who want to train here and want to practice some place else are not US citizens. There is no way in hell that American taxpayers should have to subsidize this nonsense. This is why foreign nationals should only be able to SOAP for residency slots.
 
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chocomorsel

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This thread raises my hackles. You can bet that many of the people who want to train here and want to practice some place else are not US citizens. There is no way in hell that American taxpayers should have to subsidize this nonsense. This is why foreign nationals should only be able to SOAP for residency slots.
Give me a ****ing break!! Are these so called "foreign nationals" not giving anything back to the system during their training? Like, hmm, essentially damn near free labor? Get over yourself.
 
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Endoxifen

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Give me a ****ing break!! Are these so called "foreign nationals" not giving anything back to the system during their training? Like, hmm, essentially damn near free labor? Get over yourself.
I assumed that he was a troll.

For clarification, I was born in DC, so this is particularly ironic if he was serious.
 
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gutonc

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Give me a ****ing break!! Are these so called "foreign nationals" not giving anything back to the system during their training? Like, hmm, essentially damn near free labor? Get over yourself.
I assumed that he was a troll.

For clarification, I was born in DC, so this is particularly ironic if he was serious.
He likes to come into threads about foreign trained or born physicians and pop off without offering any sort of useful critique.

The ignore function is a really marvelous tool.
 
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Obnoxious Dad

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Give me a ****ing break!! Are these so called "foreign nationals" not giving anything back to the system during their training? Like, hmm, essentially damn near free labor? Get over yourself.
They get paid at least $48,000 per year and they get trained. The average cost to the taxpayer, through Medicare and various state appropriations, for a medical resident is about $115,000 per year. Total federal expenditures approximate $15,000,000,000 per year. Here's the link, Milton Friedman.
https://www.nap.edu/read/18754/chapter/5
 
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