US vs Foreign AVMA

[Azawakh]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I am just curious as to what peoples thoughts or experiences are regarding the quality of foreign AVMA veterinary schools?

Because they are AVMA accredited I realize that they meet the minimum standards that all US veterinary schools are held to and in some cases may be superior to specific US programs.

Yet it appears that they accept a fair amount of students that are not accepted at US schools. It's been mentioned that because US students pay full tuition versus citizens of the specific country that pay comparatively little that it's a source of income for these programs. I've also heard that the acceptance rates for US students at the University of Edinburgh and Glasgow specifically was very high > 75% of applicants. When the subject has come up with faculty it appears that there is some stigma attached.

Have other people heard similar things?

 

[Hollycozza]

Hello,

I know there is a totally different application process for international compared to local students for Sydney uni (and also between local students as we have government supported places, which are harder to get, and also local fee paying places, which are presumably a bit easier).

Once everyone is in the course though they have to achieve the same standard to keep on progressing.

The course is pretty hard, so surely getting through it makes everyone an equivalent vet at the end?

(A lot of people do fail as well. My class started with 120 people and now we have 100, about 20 of whom have come down from the year above......)

 

[laurafinn]

A few random thoughts:

There probably is some stigma attached to foreign AVMA-accredited schools, since they do accept some students who have been rejected from US schools, and the schools themselves -- especially those in Australasia -- are a bit of an unknown quantity to the average vet in the US. Reputation varies from school to school.

If you think about it, most US vet schools accept students who have previously been rejected by US institutions -- students who have reapplied to US schools and only been accepted on their second or third try.

I really don't know about my school's acceptance stats for direct entry foreign students specifically, other than Americans must have a GPA of 3.0 and a GRE of some minimum standard for their applications to be considered. There are two tracks -- government-sponsored (75 spots, for Kiwis) and full-fee-paying (25 spots, for Kiwis and foreigners). It is harder to get the government-sponsored spots.

Most Americans here seem to be from California, most Canadians from British Columbia, both areas that are underserved in terms of vet school spots (relative to their populations).

As far as the profit motive for foreign vet schools -- it sure is there, at least in New Zealand. Foreign students -- mostly Chinese, mostly business & English-language students -- have added about $2.2 billion to NZ's economy in the past 5 years. This has not escaped the notice of the vet school.

That said, it is not in Massey's best interest to accept unqualified vet students -- the program is tough, they want to keep their AVMA accreditation, they want their American and Canadian students to pass the NAVLE. Further, a fair number of international students stay on in NZ as vets, and I'm sure they don't want to jeopardize their country's 1st and 2nd largest sources of export income (dairy and meat).

 

[birdvet2006]

Yet it appears that they accept a fair amount of students that are not accepted at US schools. It's been mentioned that because US students pay full tuition versus citizens of the specific country that pay comparatively little that it's a source of income for these programs. I've also heard that the acceptance rates for US students at the University of Edinburgh and Glasgow specifically was very high > 75% of applicants. When the subject has come up with faculty it appears that there is some stigma attached.

Have other people heard similar things?

I have to say that I am somewhat offended that people think, just because I went to a foreign school, that I was not qualified to be accepted at a US vet school. That I was "not good enough". In fact, this is SO not true and you can see why I am so irritated by this! I had a 3.49 cumulative GPA and never applied to US vet schools. My last "60 hours" (or whatever it's called) GPA was a 4.0. I had a good background of experience with both small and large animals. I just wanted to go abroad for the experience - and not because it was any "easier to get in".

FYI, Glasgow has a minimum requirement of a 3.2 GPA. The GRE is not required (or has not been for several years - not sure if this has changed recently or not).

My school is a quality school. It was very difficult and challenging. It was common for people at my vet school to fail (repeating exams, repeating entire years even multiple times) - probably more than at a US vet school. The education system is different. But the material is the same and great vets are the product. Why does it matter that it's in another country?

As an intern in the USA, I am working with 7 other interns. Each from a different vet school. We are all working at the same calibre - we're all good vets. If you didn't tell anyone, everyone would think I graduated from a US vet school (except for my choice of spelling and my degree, that is).

 

[Hollycozza]

I was discussing this today with one of my friends from Connecticut who is studying at Sydney. My friend is pretty sure she would have got into Vet school in the US, but because there is no state school for her, it would have been a lot more expensive to go to vet school for four years there than for five years here. (And as Birdvet says she also gets the fun of living in a different country!)

 

[Azawakh]

I do not intend to offend anyone with my question (Birdvet). I lived for 2 years in Europe throughout high school and college and it has been the most rewarding aspect of my academic career.

I applied to Edinburgh and Glasgow and I strongly considered attending because of my previous experience abroad and because in Europe and Internationally they are well respected academic instituitions. However, I had a very difficult time explaining to people in the US why I was even considering these school and met the very resistance I speak of hence the question.

Aslo, at the informational meeting I was surprised when they informed us that they had offered acceptances to 75% of the 109 US applicants. That seems really high to me.

 

[birdvet2006]

Aslo, at the informational meeting I was surprised when they informed us that they had offered acceptances to 75% of the 109 US applicants. That seems really high to me.

The problem I think they have is that people offered acceptances actually change their minds and decide not to go overseas. Perhaps because they have family that wouldn't want to move or maybe because they're afraid of the debt. Perhaps they chose another school (US) over the foreign school. So even though they offer positions to about 75-80 people, probably a good majority don't accept the positions. At Glasgow, they usually take 20-30 Americans maximum per class. The class sizes start at 110ish. Mine did - and we ended up with 96 in the end. I think we started with 8-11 Americans and ended with 3. Kind of interesting, don't you think?

 

[Azawakh]

It is interesting that so many US students that are offered seats at foreign schools inevitably decline for I am sure varied reasons. I guess it should not come as a complete surprise.

My question is more why is the acceptance rate for American students so high irrespective of whether they actually decide to attend and if that says anything about the caliber of the program? I know we are smart and everything but it definitely made me a little uneasy when that was mentioned.

Be what it may I love being abroad and I will try to spend some of my elective clinical rotations in Europe or Australia at an AVMA accredited institution and experience it for myself.

 

[Hollycozza]

I'm sure it doesn't say anything about the calibre of the programme!

It might mean they accept American students with lower marks than an American school would, because of the financial imperative, but it doesn't mean those students will be able to get through the programme without achieving an equal standard to what they would have to do to get through a programme in the US.

It also (as Birdvet and my friend from Connecticut are proof) is not necessarily true that US students studying abroad are doing so because they failed to get in at home.

We started with five north American students in my class and two have failed some subjects and dropped back to the year behind while the other three have done well all the way through.

Surely if the AVMA accredits the degree, then anyone who achieves the degree is therefore going to be up to US graduate standards (at least) at the end. Whether (or not) their GPA was marginally lower when they entered the course would surely not really matter...................

 

[Nexx]

I think the stats on US applicant acceptance to the UK schools is a bit off.

Strictly going from the VMSAR book from what I recall (it's out in my car at the moment so I'll check later) I want to say about 120 applicants applied through VMCAS to each of the UK schools. Each of those school then took roughly 20 students from the applicant pool. (very roughly, 20%)

Now, statistically that means that I would have a better chance at being accepted to a UK school if I applied. Afterall at UF for instance the total applicant pool is roughly 800 students. They accept ~80 per year (roughly 10%) I've essentially doubled the odds of my acceptance if I chose to apply to a UK school!

A lot of people are simply unaware, unwilling, or unable to go overseas for school. Cost can be prohibitive, as can family structure, and being that far away from everyone. It really isn't an easy choice to make to go far away from everything that you know and find ways to pay for it. It surely isn't easy to front $30k in tuition up front to go to an Aussie school so you can get your visa, especially if your family and friends can't help out and you are still in 'student' mode and have pretty shoddy credit when applying for loans.

 

[lazyjayn]

Also, US culture is rather insular- Most people in the US don't bother to learn about how stuff really works in other countries. Go overseas to just about anywhere but oxford (still suspect) and no one will ever have heard of the place.

But, and the other people studying overseas might have run into this too- I get a lot of people telling me how brave I must be, for leaving the US, as tho they don't have electricity in NZ, or something. Moving overseas is just something most people here (I'm at home atm) don't do- after all, what could possibly be better than home? So some of the people who get accepted and then don't go might get talked out of it. Heck, I get the "be careful, I hear NZ has (insert silly risk here)" lecture from my father at least twice a week. Never anything about not jumping out of planes, tho. I get the same attitude from people about travelling by myself, or staying in hostels, or anything that is outside someone else's comfort zone.

Are the people who say foreign avma school vets are inferior actual vets, or are they vet students? Or are they the rather superior acting faculty of a rather superior feeling US school that wants to keep it's application numbers up? Sorry- I tend to get pessimistic and whatnot at 2am.

j.- off to eat my US junkfood list and clean off my golf clubs, so they don't get rejected at customs.

 

[Quaggi]

I think the stats on US applicant acceptance to the UK schools is a bit off.

Strictly going from the VMSAR book from what I recall (it's out in my car at the moment so I'll check later) I want to say about 120 applicants applied through VMCAS to each of the UK schools. Each of those school then took roughly 20 students from the applicant pool. (very roughly, 20%)

Now, statistically that means that I would have a better chance at being accepted to a UK school if I applied. Afterall at UF for instance the total applicant pool is roughly 800 students. They accept ~80 per year (roughly 10%) I've essentially doubled the odds of my acceptance if I chose to apply to a UK school!

Remember that when VMSAR says they "took" 20 people out of 120 applicants, that means how many people went. it doesn't include people who were accepted and then chose to go elsewhere. So thinking in that respect, I don't doubt Azawakh's stats (also, he's the hottest guy in V'10, he could never be wrong anyway 😉 )

 

[bubbles525]

I think the higher acceptance rates at AVMA foreign schools are due to a lot of things and do not reflect the caliber of the vets that eventually graduate. First off I think the US system is extreamly flawed. A 4.0, 1600/6.0, decent essay, 500 hours in a clinic, and decent LOR will get you in. It is becoming a scholastic feat to get into vet school. I cannot count how many times I've heard "Wow, vet school is harder to get into than med school. Your parents must be proud" or some varriation. I know a 4.0 and 1600/6.0 doesn't make you a good vet. I know people who can fake a good essay (by that I mean write a really good one and not acctually have the passion and drive they embued in it). I know assitants and techs who are stupid and arrogant and would make aweful vets who've worked in the bussiness for years. I think most of us know people like that. And once a person gets into a US school the schools have placed so much effort in choosing the "best of the best" that no one wants them to fail out. I don't pretend to know how to fix this but I do know there are better people out there for some (not all and I am not questioning anyone's acceptance so please do not be offended) of the positions that have been filled with some individuals with more book smarts than animal smarts. And I know that the applicnt field is filled with people who will make great vets who have struggled with calc or with organic or with physics or a random class, people who are horrid at standardized test, and who cannnot write an essay to save thier life all of whom would make excellent, caring, inteligent, passionate, savy vets. Vet schools now have so much chioce I think good people are being passed over I guess is the bottom line of this whole huge paragraph. Besides which of course the US schools don't want qualified good people going overseas so there is bound to be some trash talk from some individuals about some schools. Each schools thinks that their program is the best and Americans, largly, think that the American way of doing things is best.

That being said US students are hyper prepared compared to foreign applicants. We have more hours in more types or practices, we have undergrad degrees already. We've tried to compete (and a lot have succeeded) in the biggest grad competition in the US. We look good. And the AVMA foreign schools are not afriad or unwilling to fail us out of school. Their reputation does not depend, in part, by large retention rate. If an applicant is accepted but no good they just won't make it. And further if the graduate is unable to the task they won't pass the NAVLE. There are American grad who don't pass after all.

Further, it does take a lot of guts and drive to go overseas. For me at least it was not becuase I'm afriad of the travel but becuase, like Jayne said, Americans are safely enclosed in thier comfort zones and you find a lot of resistance from places you did not expect it. My family is excited for me going to Murdoch, completly supportive. My boss has professed she wants me at my state school so I can work for her over the summer, but that is surrounded by her trying to convince me to stay becuase "Australia is a dangerous, 3rd world country." What a load of crap it that? And this is from a vet who professes that as long as its an AVMA school she'd hire a new grad. This spring she even encouraged me to think about SGU and Ross as a last but acceptable resort if my second round went poorly; saying that is you pass the NAVLE than you're qualified. She has had contact with foreign vets in the Dominican republic and Kenya and says they were better qualified and harder working than a lot of her collegues here. Only one vet I know (and I do not particularly value her opinion) has said that she would hesitate to work with a graduate of foreign AVMA school. All of the others, a 3 gps, an internal med specialist, a surgeon, and about 6 equine vets have professed that forgien grads are great and a pleasure to work with, they would hire them. The resistance I have met has been not that its a foreign school but that I personally will be away for so long in a strange country.

Sorry for the length, as you can tell its a subject near and dear to me.

~Marie

 

[laurafinn]

My question is more why is the acceptance rate for American students so high irrespective of whether they actually decide to attend and if that says anything about the caliber of the program?

Azawakh, I don't think the high acceptance rate says anything about the caliber of the program. It is tempting to equate exclusivity with quality, but for reasons other posters have mentioned (fear of the unknown, distance from family, etc.), overseas schools will not be the first choice for many.

In my mind, I keep coming back to the example of University of Chicago (for US undergraduates back when I was applying to college, I don't know how things are today). University of Chicago accepted more candidates than many comparable undergraduate schools, because its prospective students were self-selecting. I don't think that anyone looks down on people that hold BA's from University of Chicago, since it's an extremely rigorous program.

(Of course, vet schools and liberal arts schools, apples and oranges.)

Most foreign AVMA-accredited schools do not have educating North Americans as their core mission, and North American students make only a small portion of each class. Students coming out of secondary schools into the vet program in New Zealand seem to know a lot more Biology and Chemistry than comparable high school graduates in the States. And most of my classmates have a couple years of undergraduate science training before entering the vet program.

Because Massey receives government money to educate the country's future vets, and because New Zealand is an agricultural country, expectations are very high across the board -- there is no double standard for Americans vs. Kiwis once you are in the program. Students can and do fail.

More than one North American came into the Massey vet program this year with the attitude "Oh, it must be second rate, it's only a bachelor's degree (BVSc) and after all it's not a Canadian/US vet school," and emerged stunned by the amount of work and the level of comprehension and detail required on each exam.

 

[laurafinn]

Shoot, I don't think this came across in my last post -- the international students in the Massey vet program are a really interesting and cool bunch of people. Well-traveled, generally charming, motivated, more than a couple have master's degrees, several have a prior connection to New Zealand, one just really likes sheep 🙂

 

[quakk]

i met a vet from costa rica at the raptor centre in minnesota last summer. he was a great vet. i'd be honoured to work with him anywhere.