USC/LAC 20 12hr shifts

[quicknss]

Anyone have thoughts on the educational impact of 20 12hr shifts a month for 4 years at USC? Is it worth it or a huge negative? I am personally very nervous about being able to handle such intensity but enjoyed every other aspect of the program.

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[AzEMMD]

The residents seemed to speak highly about workload. I have to say that out of all the places I've been to the residents here definitely seemed to be the most tired. They work extremely hard but are trained very well.

 

[Arcan57]

Interesting. 20 12h shifts flirts with duty hour restrictions depending on what their sign-out situation is like. In that clinical environment, I'm sure they come out very experienced.

 

[jbar]

I sorta think that you need to take whatever people at a program say with a grain of salt. On the interview trail everyone seems to think that their schedule is the best. Everyone thinks that they get the best ultrasound training, the best ortho etc. But they aren't really seeing what is going on at other shops. People at programs that have 8 hours shifts think everyone else is crazy and have no life working 20 12s. People at places that do 12s think that everyone else is soft and isn't getting enough clinical experience.

I don't know, I think it depends on kind of person you are. Do you need to go to the gym more than once a week? Do you really need 8 hours of sleep a night? How often do you want to see friends and family outside of work? etc etc. If you are someone who is like "I really need those things" I think that 20 12s wouldn't work well. That kind of schedule, with sign out and any kind of a commute you are pushing it to have it all. Most of the programs I've seen that work 12s have a brutal intern year and then the number of shifts drop each year (like 20 12s, then 18, 17, 16 etc). Like I said, people who go through a program like USC are probably convinced that they survived it, and others should be able to suck it up too. Just remember, it's not like there is any data that if you do 12s v 10s v 8s you end up a better doctor. It's not like residencies are designed just with what is best for you, it is also based on factors like staffing the shifts in the ED on the floors.

I also think there is no perfect residency. So you might say, "I love this program so much that I'm willing to put up with the hours/crappy city/terrible football team/lack of skiing" or whatever the problem is.

 

[Cerberus]

20 12s for 4 years is more than I'd be willing to work and really seems unnecesarry to become a good physician.

 

[pinipig523]

Dude... 12h x 20 shifts is BRUTAL!

We at County have 8h x 20 shifts - which equals to about 40h/wk of clinical duty (add 5 hours of conference)... and you have my dream schedule with regards to ER residency.

 

[old_boy]

Anyone have thoughts on the educational impact of 20 12hr shifts a month for 4 years at USC? Is it worth it or a huge negative? I am personally very nervous about being able to handle such intensity but enjoyed every other aspect of the program.

Is it true that they work 20 shifts all 4 years? Can anyone confirm this? I visited this program and do not recall hearing that (although I do recall the interns were working their tails off).

 

[alwaysaangel]

Is it true that they work 20 shifts all 4 years? Can anyone confirm this? I visited this program and do not recall hearing that (although I do recall the interns were working their tails off).

There is no change in schedule as the years go on. They work an average of 20-12 hr shifts all four years.

The variation in their shifts comes when they do nights. They will do 1-2 week blocks of nights and when they work nights they will work 5-6 shifts/week. That way you just completely shift your sleeping schedule when you're on nights, do fewer shifts of night blocks throughout the year and fewer day shifts when you're on days (3-5/week). In the end, it all averages out to approx 20-12 hr shifts/month all 4 years.

I actually liked the way they did nights. Makes a lot of sense and they are one of the few programs with enough residents to be able to do it that way.

 

[old_boy]

They will do 1-2 week blocks of nights and when they work nights they will work 5-6 shifts/week. That way you just completely shift your sleeping schedule when you're on nights, do fewer shifts of night blocks throughout the year and fewer day shifts when you're on days (3-5/week).

Thanks for clarifying. Sounds ok to me too, although I'm sure by your 5th night in a row you're feeling pretty burnt out.

 

[jethro136]

I'm a 4th year at USC. There is NO year in the residency during which you work 20 12's/month. During night blocks (which are admittedly busy so that you can work fewer stretches of nights) you might occasionally work 10 shifts in 2 weeks, but these are few and far between, and are well-balanced by day blocks in which you work 7-8 shifts in 2 weeks (and many of these are 8-hr or 10-hr peds shifts, or 6-hr shifts after conference).

Also, there IS a significant shift reduction as you become more senior. As seniors, our night blocks are still busy (9-10 shifts in 2 weeks) but only 4 night blocks (8 total weeks) all year. The day blocks are typically 6-8 shifts, which gives you more than enough time to moonlight and still feel well-rested, and do all those other things like enjoying LA.

Hope that clears things up. All the other points mentioned by other posters regarding the clinical training are accurate. We see crazy stuff, and lots of it.

 

[MSmentor018]

strong work! thanks for chiming in...another rumor killed !

 

[quicknss]

Thanks!

 

[NeuroSync]

Dude... 12h x 20 shifts is BRUTAL!

We at County have 8h x 20 shifts - which equals to about 40h/wk of clinical duty (add 5 hours of conference)... and you have my dream schedule with regards to ER residency.

Agree with this. I rotated somewhere with 12s and totally changed my rank list, and they did 14 their last year. We have been doing 20 9s with overlap, so they are really 9s (to10 sometimes), and our PD decided that we do not have enough time to study and do projects with that workload, and is reducing it to 18 9s. With the flip to days and educational time, you will have 2-3 real days off a month.

The other thing you have to think about with a program that does 12s is that HALF your shifts will be nights, versus 1/3. That makes a very big difference in terms of fatigue.

Just some things to think about, even though this doesn't apply to LAC...Hope you match at your top choice!!! 🙂

 

[old_boy]

I'm a 4th year at USC. ...All the other points mentioned by other posters regarding the clinical training are accurate. We see crazy stuff, and lots of it.

Thanks Jethro. Are you happy at USC?
For what it's worth, I thought it was a badass program when I interviewed there. Will be ranking it highly.

 

[EmergencyMD]

I am another 4th year EM resident at LAC+USC, I don't know where that inaccurate 20-12hr BS came from.

Never, in three years (when I applied we were a pgy2-4) of being at LAC+USC have i worked 20-12hr shifts. I completely agree with jethro.

We're not the easiest residency out there--which you should question your motivation if that's what you're looking for--but we're definitely not the hardest either. there are many programs (especially on the east coast) that work far more shifts than us.

I love it at LAC+USC, it's been the best three years of my life, and i will be sad to leave when i finish this june.

 

[13770]

Agree with jethro

 

[alwaysaangel]

The clarification in this thread is super helpful so thanks to residents for that. Now im just trying to figure out where the misinformation comes from. One of my classmates and I were discussing it today trying to remember where we had first heard it. and we agreed that it was something we were told by residents while doing our aways at usc. Maybe they were just rounding up?

 

[MSmentor018]

The clarification in this thread is super helpful so thanks to residents for that. Now im just trying to figure out where the misinformation comes from. One of my classmates and I were discussing it today trying to remember where we had first heard it. and we agreed that it was something we were told by residents while doing our aways at usc. Maybe they were just rounding up?

last yr on rotations I asked to see their EM schedule....kills the rumor when you see it for yourself

 

[alwaysaangel]

last yr on rotations I asked to see their EM schedule....kills the rumor when you see it for yourself

I was on an away there...I was living their EM schedule so I saw it.

But you're only there for 4 weeks. So its hard to see the overall average.

I am just trying to figure out why their residents are saying it if its not true...The best I can come up with is that once you add in Thur lecture you are there 5-6x/week which brings you to "20 shifts." I dunno, I'm just honestly curious since this doesn't seem to be a medical student created rumor.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Found the following on their program brochure, thought it would help people out:

While at LAC+USC, PG II residents work approximately 52-hours per week, including
time spent at conference and in other planned educational activities. This number
decreases significantly in each consecutive year. While on off-service rotations,
residents work the hours and call schedule assigned by each host service. Most
residents shifts at LAC+USC are 12 hours, however, PG III and PG IV residents work
a combination of 8 and 12 hour shifts

 

[Indryd]

We have been doing 20 9s with overlap, so they are really 9s (to10 sometimes), and our PD decided that we do not have enough time to study and do projects with that workload, and is reducing it to 18 9s. With the flip to days and educational time, you will have 2-3 real days off a month.

What program, if you don't mind? Feel free to PM if not comfortable revealing publicly.

 

[SFSurf]

Interviewed a few weeks back at LAC+USC, loved the place, the residents, the grand rounds. But pretty much all the PGY1,2,3's said they work between 17-20 12's on their DEM blocks. There weren't any PGY4's at the mixer so couldn't ask. I didn't rotate at USC, at school out east, but I'm in the same boat--loved the place but fear the burnout, especially with thoughts of having a family during Residency. That being said all the residents seemed positive, energetic and motivated. Any recent experiences on Sub-I's or interviews anyone would be willing to share for this season?

 

[bgoogle]

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