24 Hour shifts

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brucecanbeatyou

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Looking at applying at a shop that does 24H shifts. PPH is reportedly around 0.5-0.75 PPH, sounds lower acuity. Minimum would be 6 per month, which seems doable, but looking for insight as to what working 24's is like and how many ya'll have worked in a month period without dying/losing your soul. I think I would shoot for 7 or 8 shifts/month.

Obviously some shifts are going to be worse than others and require more recuperation but just wondering about what kind of routine people have worked out for themselves that consistently work 24H shifts.

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I worked 24s for about 6 years, and it burned me right out of EM. These rural places see real cases. People that say rural places take it easy haven't or don't work there. If you're 30, your body might take it. 45, not so much.
 
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My days working more than 24 hours ended when I finished residency. F that noise.
 
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I work 24, 48, and occasionally 72 hr shifts. Primary gig averages 10 patients per day. I do 8 24 hr shifts (usually four 48s) a month there, sometimes more. I've seen 2 a day, I've seen 20 in a day. I almost always get 3-4 hrs of uninterrupted sleep a night, commonly get 6+, and the nursing culture really is to help protect our sleep. Also work another shop that only averages about 5 a day (along with occasional 12 hr shifts in busy usucks shop).

I've done this for over 10 years at various rural shops, and I'm in my 50s.

If you are a good napper then this can work out well. Get called by nurse, get up, see patient, put in orders, go back to bed for an hour till everything is back, get up, dispo, back to bed.

Unless it's busy. Then it can really suck.
 
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@0.5-.75/hr all depends on the acuity. At 14pts a day on average, if they most are urgent care type then its easy. If they are mostly complicated nursing home pts/train wrecks, then its hard.
 
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I've done 24s, 72s, and 96s in two different states, three different hospitals. It's true that rural EDs see real cases, too, so it's important to have excellent nurses and transfer protocols. Nurses who can help you maximize your sleep, as noted above, can also make or break a shift. It also depends on what kind of person you are. If you can fall asleep quickly after lots of adrenaline, that helps. A lot of us like the lack of a pager in this specialty, and I felt constantly on edge working long shifts, waiting for the pager or the call room phone. There were nights when I slept for 8 hours, but they were few and far between.
 
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Really depends on how good the nights are. I occasionally do 24s at our critical access site. I've had shifts where I've seen 3 people overnight and had no sleep since they were long workups with staggered arrivals. I've also had shifts where I saw 10-12 people in the late evening and had 8 hours of uninterupted sleep.

Personally, I'd just rather work 2 nights in a row than a single 24 hour shift at this point.
 
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If you are a good napper then this can work out well. Get called by nurse, get up, see patient, put in orders, go back to bed for an hour till everything is back, get up, dispo, back to bed.
Yes, this is also great for just 12-hour night shifts at my rural place when just one patient comes in. Only realized I could do this within the last year or so. Wasn't really in the culture of my training for me to snooze while I'm waiting to dispo, but it makes total sense the older I get.

Good RNs definitely matter at rural places, but once you have one good RN or house sup, one good HUC matters more than a second good RN. If it's really rural, you will probably struggle to transfer out a lot. HUCs/techs (was a single job description!!) at my prior rural shop were able to call sometimes 10 hospitals while I slept and only wake me up when we got a live consultant. They were also able to help with the EMTALA paperwork and flight crews and manage aggressive psych patients, of which there were a lot, without needing to wake me most of the time.
 
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See, I had none of that. Absolute trash nurses, with two night nurses so bad, they couldn't work at the same time. Massive personnel loss from a malignant nurse manager. I had to make all the calls, fill out all the paperwork, all that. One nurse, I actually checked the board of nursing website in another state where she came from to see if she really was a nurse. Also, not attractive. I say this, because I saw her husband as a pt, and one of those people was not like the other. It's a truism of psych that opposites attract only mildly - it's about 5-1 of like-like vs different-different.
 
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I do prn shifts now at two CAH that have averages less than 5 patients per day, where you can reliably get some sleep. Doesn't pay fantastically well, but good enough for that patient load and lets me play plenty of games and get caught up on any personal business. But yes, when it does get busy, it sucks, or a recent night I had where I saw 3 people right when I got there, 2 went home quickly, and one needed to be transferred, the receiving hospitalist kept putting me off for literally 5 hours, then finally triaged the patient and said "oh, they look sick, sounds like you should talk to our ICU doc" and then the patient was immediately accepted to their ICU. If I had been in person I would have decked that hospitalist. Got 2 hours of sleep that night but should have been 7. Alas.

Or something relatively critical comes in and in a "normal" ED with resources it wouldn't be a big deal, but nursing staff loses their minds because they aren't used to acuity.
 
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What’s the pay like at these 72 hour shift rural hospitals? I’ve worked 24s in freestanding suburban EDs and it’s not bad majority of nights can get 5 hours sleep on average. I wouldn’t mind doing 72 hours at a rural or critical access but only for somewhat reasonable pay
 
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I once worked 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off, 24 on. 72 hours on in five days. By the end I was basically Gollum in the back room talking to myself. I never signed up for a 24 hour shift again outside of 2x bonus pay.

Some people like 24s but for me it was just the fast track to burning the f out. Also, for what it’s worth, one of the most tragic cases I ever had occurred during a 24 hour shift. You’ll still get real stuff but you’ll have zero resources to manage it.
 
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I'm not sure you could pay me enough to tie me to a hospital for 72 hours.
 
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I'm not sure you could pay me enough to tie me to a hospital for 72 hours.

Right?

When I was in residency, my ex wife (a nurse) worked at a hospital where the hospitalists did 72 hour shifts. I remember being really surprised that such a schedule even existed for hospitalists, and looking back at it there is no way in hell I would ever agree to work that kind of shift regardless of pay. (It was also surprising because this wasn’t a hospital out in the boonies or anything…it was a suburb of Cleveland, and actually in a rather urban area.) It sounds like something military doctors in a war zone might do…but why would any doc, whether EM, hospitalist, or whatever, want to be chained to the hospital for 3 days straight…it better be a really great paycheck? (And I think even 24 hour shifts sound pretty miserable too. I definitely don’t miss dealing with 24 hour call shifts as a resident.)
 
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I used to do 24s long time ago in a rural ER but I switched to just stacking a bunch of 12 hour nights together. Worked out to be better for my sanity and also I actually ended up making more money since I can just stack a bunch of them together.
 
In residency I did 48 hr shifts making $50/hr but that was alot of money back then. Avg census was 3ppd so slept most of the time. I would not do a >24 if census any higher than 10ppd.
 
24 hr shifts are fine aside from the days when they really aren't.
I don't do them anymore.
Though I've heard of a fabled place within two hours of my home where I may be able to do 36-48 hrs and see less than 0.4 pph.
Have to do some digging and investigate the pay and if they need casual help.
 
Depends a lot on acuity, area resources/transfer agreements and patient flow. 14 patients/24hr is easy if most are low acuity, transfers are easy and visits cluster between 8a-10p. If acuity is more mixed, transfers are challenging and patients straggle in every couple hours, the shifts can be incredibly draining.
 
I'll occasionally work locums at rural shops that do 24 hrs shifts.

Personally speaking it's not worth it unless you can regularly expect to get a full nights sleep on shift. In my experience at many hospitals that's next to impossible unless its super low volume under 5K census. Even then you'll still have the rare train wreck pt that checks in at 12am which pretty much ruins the whole night since you'll have to spend the next few hrs dealing with arranging transfer which can be a massive headache. Most places over 5K census nowadays see a constant stream of pts overnight such that it's only possible to have a short nap between patients with the exception of the rare nights where no one checks in after 12am and you can sleep on shift.
 
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How old are you?
Any experience doing 24 hour shifts?
What’s the nursing culture there?

I went into fire/EMS at age 18, so I had a lot of experience working 24/48’s. I started as an ER doc at almost exactly age 30. Now at 35, i still do 24 hour shifts occasionally, but even with a slow night, I don’t bounce back as easily as I did at age 20 in the fire service. Usually sleep for 4 hours “post call” even if I got 6-8 hours of sleep at the hospital because it’s just not good quality sleep. We have a stable group, oldest full time docs (two of them) are i. Their late 50s and only do 24’s. I fill in so while I prefer the 24’s, I sometimes work 12s. I had a lot of experience in my late teens and 20’s with 24’s so they don't bother me that much.

My 24 hour sites average 16-18 per shift. Very heavily skewed towards pre-work/school (6-9 AM) and after work/school (4-10 pm). Record for me was 45 patients, still was in bed by 1am, slept until my alarm went off at 0745. Would prefer that to two CP or Abd Pain pts who roll in at 1 am and 3am. Never batted zero, though some if my partners have. Slowest day for me was 6. First patient at 3pm, last patient around 8 or 9 i think.

Experienced nurses are key. Some of these ladies are old enough to be my grandmother. They come from the days when they worked up the patient with protocol orders, and called the patient’s PCP “Hi Dr. Smith. Your patient, Mr Jones is here, with chest pain. Labs are xxx, first trop us negative, and we faxed the EKG to dr. Cards and he said it looked fine. Should we admit him for you to see in the morning?”

Unfortunately, more and more of them are retiring. CP is a bad example, we dont have cards to read our EKG’s anymore so they actually have to wake me for CP to look at the EKG, but then after examining the patient, I can go back to sleep until the delta trop results (unless there is a critical result, when they call me). Abd Pain might be a better example, they technically cant order CT imaging, but know me well enough that I don’t care, and will just call me after labs, imaging, etc are done and I can see the patient then. They are very good at telling sick/not sick, and if they even suspect something is amiss, i get paged to see the patient before they do their thing. If they call me during triage, my spidey senses go up. They are usually right. The most egregious example of them protecting physician sleep was a guy who cane in early in the AM because he needed a covid test. They knew i usually get up at 730 when i sleep all night so they told him the test would take a while and then didnt page me until 0730 only saying “guy came in a few hours ago wanting a covid test, it came back negative, vitals are good, cxr was negative. We just need a discharge after you get your coffee. Have a good day!” (Night nurses work from 1900-0730).

I recently worked a 24 with a traveller (covering FMLA for one of our older nurses) and a relatively new grad. It’s made me decide I will retire from 24’s once all the seasoned nurses retire. I had to order my own ankle XR at 2am *gasps*!
 
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Looking at applying at a shop that does 24H shifts. PPH is reportedly around 0.5-0.75 PPH, sounds lower acuity. Minimum would be 6 per month, which seems doable, but looking for insight as to what working 24's is like and how many ya'll have worked in a month period without dying/losing your soul. I think I would shoot for 7 or 8 shifts/month.

Obviously some shifts are going to be worse than others and require more recuperation but just wondering about what kind of routine people have worked out for themselves that consistently work 24H shifts.

12-16 in 24 hours is very very very doable.

We average around 30-32 a day and 50 percent of our doctors do 24 hour shifts. Usually you can get 2-3 hours of sleep with 30 patients average Atleast at our shop. So a place with half the volume of ours, most nights you should get sleep and 24s should be the way to go unless driving a lot after the 24
 
It's funny, to me, 12-16 in an 8 hour shift sounds fine but 12-16 in a 24 hour shift sounds terrible. I get the appeal and find myself thinking about it sometimes but I'm just not cut-out for it. I want the opposite. I want patient based and not hour based shifts. Give me a start time in a busy ED and tell me I leave after I see the next 16 patients that show up. Some obvious barriers to actually implement but that sounds so amazing to me.
 
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I saw 50 in 24 hrs on Christmass a few years ago. Worst shift of my life. Walked in to relieve a locums NP who said "I'm glad you're here, the nurses said you know how to intubate, and I think room 4 needs intubated".

Yeah, a few hours ago.

Thats how it started and never got better in that 5 bed ed. Two codes that day; just 24 hours of hell.
 
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I have done 24s when i was a resident and do some on occasion now. I dont think i would want to do 6-8 a month but thats just me.

I could see in retirement doing 1 per week if the pay was right. Some of these near me will pay 200/hr.. thats 4800 x 52 which is about 250k a year working quite minimally. Might be too easy to not do this especially if i can sleep at night.
 
The viral URI with normal vitals (or other non-emergent complaint) hits a bit different at 3am when you're laying down than at 3pm.
 
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The viral URI with normal vitals (or other non-emergent complaint) hits a bit different at 3am when you're laying down than at 3pm.
This is precisely the gamble with 24s that I'm less willing to play anymore. Those one or two patients totally change the dynamic, especially when you're banking on a little sleep.
 
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I have done 24s when i was a resident and do some on occasion now. I dont think i would want to do 6-8 a month but thats just me.

I could see in retirement doing 1 per week if the pay was right. Some of these near me will pay 200/hr.. thats 4800 x 52 which is about 250k a year working quite minimally. Might be too easy to not do this especially if i can sleep at night.

This is my plan for CoastFIRE, basically. Work hard for a few more years then find a gig like that. Where I am the rates are more like 170/hr, but even with that, with such low acuity and volume, I'd still do it. Assuming 46 weeks out of the year (taking off for vacation sometimes) it's still net 10k/month for one day a week of work.
 
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Will never work 24 hr shifts again. There's always some ***** checking in at 3 AM right as your falling asleep wanting a work note, or dental pain, etc. Sleep is important and getting woken up 2-3 times destroys that. I'll work 12 12's in a row, but no more 24 hr shifts. Especially these days were the ED is abused more than ever.
 
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I saw 50 in 24 hrs on Christmass a few years ago. Worst shift of my life. Walked in to relieve a locums NP who said "I'm glad you're here, the nurses said you know how to intubate, and I think room 4 needs intubated".

Yeah, a few hours ago.

Thats how it started and never got better in that 5 bed ed. Two codes that day; just 24 hours of hell.
An Np covering an er solo who didn’t know how to intubate?
License to kill
 
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An Np covering an er solo who didn’t know how to intubate?
License to kill
Very common in small midwest hospitals. New grad NPs with student loan debt take locums jobs going to remote hospitals for these long shifts thinking it's easy seeing only a few patients per day. And most hospital administrators only care about getting a warm body and a license - and no required supervision because they are NPs.
 
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Very common in small midwest hospitals. New grad NPs with student loan debt take locums jobs going to remote hospitals for these long shifts thinking it's easy seeing only a few patients per day. And most hospital administrators only care about getting a warm body and a license - and no required supervision because they are NPs.
Hope those administrators have great lawyers on retainer.
 
I've done 24's up to 72's. 72's made me nuts. Even 24's I won't do anymore. Rather do a long string of nights. If you are talking about doing 7-8 per month you are talking q4. Even q4 messes with your life. You do the shift and the next day is pretty much a lost cause. Maybe you find the energy to do something fun for a few hours that afternoon, maybe not. The next day you are still probably way off on your rhythms but you can at least do something with the day. The last day is maybe the only one you can really enjoy and then it starts all over. Stack them up q3 and you are really just trying to survive until you get that week off at the end. q2 for 7-8 shifts is just going to seem like torture even if you get 2 weeks off to make up for it.
 
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Like I said, back for a visit. I figure I can wander back every 4 to 6 months just to see which CMG is imploding next.
TeamHealth is up next.. Probably gets hot in summer implodes in Nov..
 
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