Use of Animals for Ophth. Training

[HeartArtist]

Hello All,

I will be entering medical school this Fall, and I have a few areas of interest, one is in ophthalmology. I am a vegetarian, and really do not want to work on live animals that are euthanized when I am finished. I was hoping some residents could shed light on their training so I can assess whether I can pursue this path, ie do you have to work on live animals, eyes of dead animals, simulators, or just learn on humans under the guidance of attendings etc.

Thank you in advance for your feedback.

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[backrow]

You will most definitely train on the eyes of animals, some may be dead, others not quite yet dead depending on where you train.

I can't think of too many specialties where you won't have some sort of animal model as a training tool although many are trying to find suitable alternatives.

 

[hurdlepup]

Some places I interviewed used donated cadaver eyes if that is better for you.

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[Dusn]

I'm also a vegetarian. Yes you practice on pig eyes (that are no longer attached to the pig) but I highly doubt they were killed for the purpose of their eyes. You can also practice on human cadaver eyes that don't meet the criteria needed to be used for corneal transplants (and these eyes are of course much more like live human eyes and better to practice on anyway).

Yes, there are some trauma courses with live animals under general anesthesia that you may practice operating on... I don't think most programs have these courses and if you choose not to do it I doubt many programs would care. The one exception may be the army/navy programs where I'm sure they highly value your training in ocular trauma (although I think they would get more valuable trauma training anyway by just sending their residents to an inner city trauma hospital).

 

[guttata]

You may train on human eyes if available. Otherwise, you may train on cow/pig eyes. Honestly, animal eyes are not great for training (do not mimic human tissue) and you could get equal training if you practiced (creating incisions, suturing) under the microscope. I interviewed years ago, but do not recall a program utilizing live animals for surgery. Almost all of your surgical training will be on humans under the attending's guidance. I would not be concerned about operating on live animals.

 

[dsoz]

Just getting to the place where you enter residency will possibly require you to practice on live or dead animals.

There are at least a couple of schools that I know about or have heard about that do a cardiac lab in MS1 on a live pig or dog (not sure if dogs are used much any more). They anesthetize the animal, take all sorts of readings, drain a large %of the blood volume, take readings, replace the volume with saline, take readings, replace the blood, take readings, inject norepinephrine, take more readings, inject epinephrine, take more readings, at least one place places a swan ganz catheter to measure cardiac output.

I respect your choice to be a vegetarian, but sometimes you may not be able to avoid lessons using animal models. I don't eat people, and have the utmost respect for human life, but I will be dissecting a cadaver.

dsoz

 

[JMK2005]

Just getting to the place where you enter residency will possibly require you to practice on live or dead animals.

There are at least a couple of schools that I know about or have heard about that do a cardiac lab in MS1 on a live pig or dog (not sure if dogs are used much any more). They anesthetize the animal, take all sorts of readings, drain a large %of the blood volume, take readings, replace the volume with saline, take readings, replace the blood, take readings, inject norepinephrine, take more readings, inject epinephrine, take more readings, at least one place places a swan ganz catheter to measure cardiac output.

I respect your choice to be a vegetarian, but sometimes you may not be able to avoid lessons using animal models. I don't eat people, and have the utmost respect for human life, but I will be dissecting a cadaver.

dsoz

most programs will expect you to practice suturing under the scope on pig/cow/sheep eyes. if not used for teaching, they would be thrown away anyways.

Learning surgery however requires operating on real tissue. The only way is with patients under the guidance of your attendings. With each year of training, your comfort and level of responsibility increases.

 

[MstaKing10]

I think the eyesi surgical simulator has really obviated the need to train on animal models at least for phaco and retina procedures. I did both and while there are advantages and disadvantages to them, I really enjoyed the surgical simulator. I think as hardware and software improves, there will be less of a need for pig eyes or the like. For other procedures like plastics or glaucoma, suturing on animal eyes or skin is really the best as there is no simulator for that. Nothing of course beats the real thing.

 

[Dusn]

In short, I wouldn't worry about it. Especially not as a pre-med. As many of the above posters hinted at you can find ways around it if needed when the time comes. Practicing on animal eyes is a small adjunct to your training and not a core part of it and you can find equally good substitutes for it (volunteer to figure out how to get human cadaver eyes for your program - they're better anyway).

 

[4ophtho]

I find it ironic that you are concerned about using animal parts or live animals to train when, at many times during your medical training and especially in a surgical field, you will actually be learning on a live human. Your focus on not harming animals is interesting when eventually you will have to fumble through your first cataract surgery on a real person.

 

[JMK2005]

I find it ironic that you are concerned about using animal parts or live animals to train when, at many times during your medical training and especially in a surgical field, you will actually be learning on a live human. Your focus on not harming animals is interesting when eventually you will have to fumble through your first cataract surgery on a real person.

I don't see the irony.

I don't feel comfortable practicing on a live animal purely for learning. I have no problems practicing on an animal eye from a slaughter house.

Learning on a real person is done with respect for the patient and safety in mind at every step. The patient has a choice to have a trainee involved in his/her care.

 

[Hemichordate]

Does anyone know what the training curriculum for oculoplastics is like? I'm guessing they don't use simulators, so do they only use cadaver/animal eyes? Also, how do they learn procedures like orbital fracture repairs if the eyes are always separated from the orbit?

 

[Dusn]

I find it ironic that you are concerned about using animal parts or live animals to train when, at many times during your medical training and especially in a surgical field, you will actually be learning on a live human. Your focus on not harming animals is interesting when eventually you will have to fumble through your first cataract surgery on a real person.

I personally stopped practicing cataract surgery on pig eyes because I thought that the muscle memory I learned while practicing on a pig eye is completely different that a human eye and would make me a worse cataract surgeon. Pig eyes are much tougher.

 

[MstaKing10]

Does anyone know what the training curriculum for oculoplastics is like? I'm guessing they don't use simulators, so do they only use cadaver/animal eyes? Also, how do they learn procedures like orbital fracture repairs if the eyes are always separated from the orbit?

I'll speak from personal experience, though, there is probably a lot of variability between different residencies. Practiced suturing on chicken or pig skin. Went to an orbital dissection course where we dissected then installed all kinds of plates on a cadaver.

 

[odieoh]

Semi- relevant to the OP's question- I did a research year at a major institution where many studies took place using rabbits. Mostly biocompatibility studies for new IOL designs. It was interesting. I'm undecided whether I favor or oppose animal research for this type of thing. Obviously there is a benefit to society by doing this type of work, but at the expense of suffering by the rabbits. The rabbits I worked with were treated well and as humanely as possible. However, despite everyone's good intentions, the rabbits were occasionally in pain because of surgery/medications, and at the end of the studies they were euthanized because the eyes needed to be examined by pathology. It was sad to see. I should emphasize that this was not a part of the residency program/training.

Incidentally, I am almost finished writing a novel in which one of the major subplots involves the rabbit research I witnessed. The book is fiction, but that particular subplot is based purely on things I saw and witnessed. The point of the book is not to emphasize a "pro" or "anti" animal research stance, although probably most people would feel it is "anti" after reading it. If any of you would be interested in reading it, PM me or comment. I may make a post on here if it gets to the point where I publish it, not sure if such shameless plugs are allowed on here, though I've seen others do it. Sorry to sidetrack the thread, but seemed semi-relevant.