USMLE is NOT a better written test than COMLEX - Change my mind

[deleted646902]

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Title says it all really - I don't see the USMLE as a better written test. More of a "This is giving me terrible flashbacks to Undergrad Biochem" kind of a feel whereas COMLEX makes me actually think I'm doing something useful with my education. Also just realized I put this in the wrong forum so if one of the moderators can move it that would be great : )

 

[ButterButter]

Hey mods, please delete this obviously-a-troll post. K thx.

 

[deleted646902]

Hey mods, please delete this obviously-a-troll post. K thx.

 

[radkat101]

How does an exam littered with questions about cranial and Chapman points (I could go on) make you feel like you’re doing something useful with your education? This may sound extreme, but I was actually more motivated to take step after walking out of comlex because I couldn’t believe the test was considered sufficient to license physicians.

 

[deleted646902]

How does an exam littered with questions about cranial and Chapman points (I could go on) make you feel like you’re doing something useful with your education? This may sound extreme, but I was actually more motivated to take step after walking out of comlex because I couldn’t believe the test was considered sufficient to license physicians.

Take out the 5-7 straight OMM questions you'll get on the test and the rest of the OMM on the test is not important to be able to answer the questions. I don't think that 5-7 questions can delegitimize an entire test for me to say that USMLE is any better in how/what they are asking their questions.

I'm not saying that i'm a fan of the OMM on COMLEX. I just think that COMLEX asks the "regular" medical questions better than USMLE and USMLE focuses on better topics if that makes sense. I wish the two could combine in a hybrid however overall, I'd take COMLEX any day over USMLE.

 

[Moose A Moose]

Took them both. I liked the COMLEX more... but I’m only saying that because the vignettes were a lot more straight forward.

 

[radkat101]

Take out the 5-7 straight OMM questions you'll get on the test and the rest of the OMM on the test is not important to be able to answer the questions. I don't think that 5-7 questions can delegitimize an entire test for me to say that USMLE is any better in how/what they are asking their questions.

5-7? We must have taken completely different tests. And clearly you haven’t taken comlex 2 where a solid 20% is straight OMM.

Take out the 5-7 straight OMM questions you'll get on the test and the rest of the OMM on the test is not important to be able to answer the questions. I don't think that 5-7 questions can delegitimize an entire test for me to say that USMLE is any better in how/what they are asking their questions.

I'm not saying that i'm a fan of the OMM on COMLEX. I just think that COMLEX asks the "regular" medical questions better than USMLE and USMLE focuses on better topics if that makes sense. I wish the two could combine in a hybrid however overall, I'd take COMLEX any day over USMLE.

By saying the regular questions are asked "better" you just mean easier. For most people COMLEX is an easier exam testing more basic knowledge with shorter question vignettes. On COMLEX, I remember reading only the first sentence before answering and blowing through a good portion of the exam this way. Step made me actually think through the cases which is more aligned with reality.

 

[Goro]

Title says it all really - I don't see the USMLE as a better written test. More of a "This is giving me terrible flashbacks to Undergrad Biochem" kind of a feel whereas COMLEX makes me actually think I'm doing something useful with my education. Also just realized I put this in the wrong forum so if one of the moderators can move it that would be great : )

Have you actually taken COMLEX and USMLE?

 

[Jinxapotato]

My COMLEX 1 has literally 1/3 of questions on microbiology and OMM. Knowing these 2 cold made the difference between 450 and a 600. Not that these aren't important, but we're not trained to become microbiologist or chiropractor right? What about the pathophys/pharm that constitutes the bread and butter of most physicians?

 

[Jinxapotato]

5-7? We must have taken completely different tests. And clearly you haven’t taken comlex 2 where a solid 20% is straight OMM.



By saying the regular questions are asked "better" you just mean easier. For most people COMLEX is an easier exam testing more basic knowledge with shorter question vignettes. On COMLEX, I remember reading only the first sentence before answering and blowing through a good portion of the exam this way. Step made me actually think through the cases which is more aligned with reality.

seriously, just took the COMSAE for level 2 from our school recently, didn't study at all, just lightly went over cranial/viscerosomatic/sacrum stuff - got 500+ ..... This should not happen. If I get a 400 or so barely passing grade, I'd say the test is fair. If I can take a test naked and still make 500+, something is wrong with the test, it doesn't test your full knowledge nor does passing the test mean anything

 

[ButterButter]

The people that claim COMLEX is superior are the ones that do poorly on USMLE or choose not to take it.

 

[starri]

COMLEX is, in its way, a decent exam in testing PC stuff. At the same time, having taken all three levels, on each of them, there were questions, often multiples, that no matter how hard I stared at them, I couldn't even determine what I was actually being asked. And that's not even mentioning the questions which are either five microbes or drugs I've never heard of.

 

[radkat101]

My COMLEX 1 has literally 1/3 of questions on microbiology and OMM. Knowing these 2 cold made the difference between 450 and a 600. Not that these aren't important, but we're not trained to become microbiologist or chiropractor right? What about the pathophys/pharm that constitutes the bread and butter of most physicians?

Not to mention that the test writers are too lazy to even write challenging, thought provoking questions. The "difficult" questions on COMLEX are usually just about bugs and treatments nobody has ever heard of, or they are ones so poorly worded, you don't know what they are even asking. Hard work pays off on USMLE. COMLEX has a bunch of easy questions to make the passing threshold low, and thereafter relies on random low yield topics to separate scores.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

The USMLE is a better test. The problem with the COMLEX is that there is less consistency. The USMLE seems like they took First Aid and made one question from every page of the book. The COMLEX can have 5 questions on carpal tunnel and than 0 questions on embryology. They may have 1 question of microbology and 8 of immunology. So if you get a version that tests your strengths, you are solid. But the USMLE will hit everything. And I could probably take the COMLEX level 1 3 times and get 3 drastically different tests and 3 different scores. USMLE is much less variation.

also, the COMLEX requires too much assumption whereas the USMLE doesn't. In the COMLEX, if they say that there is a 50 year old homeless man with back pain, you are supposed to know already that he has TB. The USMLE will tell you the necessary information.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think COMLEX is a much more manageable exam and I think that it usually tests more reasonable levels of knowledge necessary for being a doctor. In comparison the USMLE is kind of like a hard mode run through of a game. You're not really proving anything except just how far you can go before you hit your intellectual limits. The USMLE is however undoubtedly well written and the background faculty working on it along with the determination and qbank is just not comparable the COMLEX which has far less people working on it and deciding what goes into it.

I think they need to honestly raise the passing score for COMLEX however. Maybe a 425 to 450 if the new average is a 560.

 

[D4C]

Not to mention that the test writers are too lazy to even write challenging, thought provoking questions. The "difficult" questions on COMLEX are usually just about bugs and treatments nobody has ever heard of, or they are ones so poorly worded, you don't know what they are even asking. Hard work pays off on USMLE. COMLEX has a bunch of easy questions to make the passing threshold low, and thereafter relies on random low yield topics to separate scores.

If you think the USMLE is thought provoking then lol. It is the better written test though, bottom line. COMLEX does use buzzwords, USMLE doesn't (anymore at least). And I 100% agree with @FrkyBgStok about the assumptions - COMLEX does that alot. Like alot alot. The USMLE will just bombard you with excessive information.

 

[MrTaco92]

My COMLEX 1 has literally 1/3 of questions on microbiology and OMM. Knowing these 2 cold made the difference between 450 and a 600. Not that these aren't important, but we're not trained to become microbiologist or chiropractor right? What about the pathophys/pharm that constitutes the bread and butter of most physicians?

Do you know if most comlex exams have lots of micro? So far I've heard that they tend to have more neuroanatomy than the usmle, but I feel like this is my first time hearing about it being heavy on micro.

 

[Mad Jack]

Title says it all really - I don't see the USMLE as a better written test. More of a "This is giving me terrible flashbacks to Undergrad Biochem" kind of a feel whereas COMLEX makes me actually think I'm doing something useful with my education. Also just realized I put this in the wrong forum so if one of the moderators can move it that would be great : )

Take both actual exams, then get back to me. UW is not like the USMLE, COMBank is not like the COMLEX.

 

[deleted646902]

Well i'm happy this actually started a discussion among everyone like I wanted. I'll ignore most of the comments attacking me and just get back to the question at hand.

@Goro - I am currently in dedicated however I have taken 2 practice exams of each... I would like to think I have earned the right to an opinion on this subject.

Reading through some of the responses I have seen that I should rephrase my comments regarding the two exams - It is of my belief that USMLE is a "Better Written" exam however tests you on a knowledge level that is not necessary at this point in your career. COMLEX is a "Worse Written" exam however tests you at a knowledge level that should be expected at this point in your career. Do people agree with that statement?

 

[deleted646902]

The people that claim COMLEX is superior are the ones that do poorly on USMLE or choose not to take it.

SDN - the land of assumptions

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

No. You should know the information on the usmle after your pre-clinical years. If you don’t, You have failed yourself and your future patients.

COMLEX is an inferior test. Period.

 

[samac]

Well i'm happy this actually started a discussion among everyone like I wanted. I'll ignore most of the comments attacking me and just get back to the question at hand.

@Goro - I am currently in dedicated however I have taken 2 practice exams of each... I would like to think I have earned the right to an opinion on this subject.

Reading through some of the responses I have seen that I should rephrase my comments regarding the two exams - It is of my belief that USMLE is a "Better Written" exam however tests you on a knowledge level that is not necessary at this point in your career. COMLEX is a "Worse Written" exam however tests you at a knowledge level that should be expected at this point in your career. Do people agree with that statement?

I have to disagree that you have a right to have an opinion because you’ve taken practice tests. The comsaes are not indicative of the actual exam. Get back to us when you’ve taken them.

 

[deleted646902]

No. You should know the information on the usmle after your pre-clinical years. If you don’t, You have failed yourself and your future patients.

COMLEX is an inferior test. Period.

Interesting take - Guess all the DO's that only take COMLEX have failed every patient

 

[deleted646902]

I have to disagree that you have a right to have an opinion because you’ve taken practice tests. The comsaes are not indicative of the actual exam. Get back to us when you’ve taken them.

Whats your take on the second portion of that post though. I'm just genuinely interested to see peoples take on that part.

 

[samac]

Whats your take on the second portion of that post though. I'm just genuinely interested to see peoples take on that part.

I’m not a fair judge of the comparison. Didn’t take USMLE because I was too at risk.

 

[atomheart]

My USMLE had more clinically relevant info for third year than COMLEX. It has been the better test overall in my training.

Your opinion doesn't matter if you haven't actually taken the tests. I would also ask you to not advise your juniors about these tests, as you could potentially do some harm spreading misinformation. I always asked my seniors what their scores were before taking their advise into account, and simply ignored the people who hadn't taken both.

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

I have to disagree that you have a right to have an opinion because you’ve taken practice tests. The comsaes are not indicative of the actual exam. Get back to us when you’ve taken them.

Agreed. The only people who can intellengently comment on this are students who have taken both exams. I have taken both. So my opinion is more valid than the OP.

 

[Leggomyeggo128]

"Interesting take - Guess all the DO's that only take COMLEX have failed every patient ”

I didn’t say that. Taking comlex only is fine and within your right as a DO student. But don’t try to make yourself feel smarter by bashing on a test you are not going to take because you are going to fail it. It makes you seem desperate.

 

[ButterButter]

It is of my belief that USMLE is a "Better Written" exam however tests you on a knowledge level that is not necessary at this point in your career. COMLEX is a "Worse Written" exam however tests you at a knowledge level that should be expected at this point in your career. Do people agree with that statement?

The exams are testing information that you should know after 2 years of pre-clinical curriculum: anatomy, biochem, pathology, physiology, micro, etc. USMLE goes into lots of nit-picky depth and requires its test-takers to dig deep and retain lots of information in order to do well. At this point in your career, anything that has been covered in the first two years of medical school is fair game. USMLE is better written and is more up-to-date. COMLEX is full of "what gas was used in this bioterrorism attack" and "what's this latin medicolegal term" and "what's the name of this worm that infected a kid in a far-flung Pakistani village that you've never heard of." Oh, and "what's the CRI for someone having an MI". When you go into the clinical world, you begin to look at things differently, and Step 2 will reflect more 'clinically-relevant' material.

Also, I'm of the camp that believes that only someone who has taken the exam can critique its content.

 

[deleted646902]

"Interesting take - Guess all the DO's that only take COMLEX have failed every patient ”

I didn’t say that. Taking comlex only is fine and within your right as a DO student. But don’t try to make yourself feel smarter by bashing on a test you are not going to take because you are going to fail it. It makes you seem desperate.

I mean - thats pretty much what you said...

Of course i'm going to fail it with my 230 Averages.... Do you like to make assumptions or does THAT make you feel like you're smarter than other people? Just because I feel that COMLEX info is more relevant than USMLE Biochem that I will forget the minute I step out of the testing center does not make me "inferior" to you because I have expressed a different idea than most people. I respect your opinion that USMLE Is a "better" exam but you should try and take snarky comments out of your repertoire - THAT makes you look like someone that everyone dreads coming to work to work with.

To everyone else - I respect your opinions and hopefully you can see at least part of what i'm saying. Osteopathic Schools prepare you for a different formated test and focus on other parts of your education compared to the USMLE. Neither are worse or better in terms of training as both tests will test you on things you'll forget in clinical training. Maybe its just an outcome of how I've been trained for the last 2 years that COMLEX sits better with my testing abilities at this point. Time will tell in 2 months.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The exams are testing information that you should know after 2 years of pre-clinical curriculum: anatomy, biochem, pathology, physiology, micro, etc. USMLE goes into lots of nit-picky depth and requires its test-takers to dig deep and retain lots of information in order to do well. At this point in your career, anything that has been covered in the first two years of medical school is fair game. USMLE is better written and is more up-to-date. COMLEX is full of "what gas was used in this bioterrorism attack" and "what's this latin medicolegal term" and "what's the name of this worm that infected a kid in a far-flung Pakistani village that you've never heard of." Oh, and "what's the CRI for someone having an MI". When you go into the clinical world, you begin to look at things differently, and Step 2 will reflect more 'clinically-relevant' material.

Also, I'm of the camp that believes that only someone who has taken the exam can critique its content.

I honestly disagree. I think the USMLE had enormous amounts of information that was largely far and beyond curriculum. It was entirely a test that judged whether or not you can use your background information to answer the question as best you can, never truly knowing that you were correct. COMLEX was very literally do you know the information necessary to do the job and the questions reflected that enormously. I had almost no straightforward questions on my USMLE and it exhausted me enormously. By my last 40 question block I was effectively shattered. In comparison I left COMLEX and still had enough energy to go drinking and dancing after.

I never had any of these weirdo questions on my COMLEX tbh. The worst one was a question that I couldn't even remotely make out what was going on so I guessed.

 

[deleted646902]

I honestly disagree. I think the USMLE had enormous amounts of information that was largely far and beyond curriculum. It was entirely a test that judged whether or not you can use your background information to answer the question as best you can, never truly knowing that you were correct. COMLEX was very literally do you know the information necessary to do the job and the questions reflected that enormously. I had almost no straightforward questions on my USMLE and it exhausted me enormously. By my last 40 question block I was effectively shattered. In comparison I left COMLEX and still had enough energy to go drinking and dancing after.

I never had any of these weirdo questions on my COMLEX tbh. The worst one was a question that I couldn't even remotely make out what was going on so I guessed.

Alas... someone better able to express my ideas better than me. Thank you

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I mean - thats pretty much what you said...

Of course i'm going to fail it with my 230 Averages.... Do you like to make assumptions or does THAT make you feel like you're smarter than other people? Just because I feel that COMLEX info is more relevant than USMLE Biochem that I will forget the minute I step out of the testing center does not make me "inferior" to you because I have expressed a different idea than most people. I respect your opinion that USMLE Is a "better" exam but you should try and take snarky comments out of your repertoire - THAT makes you look like someone that everyone dreads coming to work to work with.

To everyone else - I respect your opinions and hopefully you can see at least part of what i'm saying. Osteopathic Schools prepare you for a different formated test and focus on other parts of your education compared to the USMLE. Neither are worse or better in terms of training as both tests will test you on things you'll forget in clinical training. Maybe its just an outcome of how I've been trained for the last 2 years that COMLEX sits better with my testing abilities at this point. Time will tell in 2 months.

I don't think DO school prepares you anymore for COMLEX than it does for USMLE. That is to say unless your school just avoided teaching pathology entirely. The format in all honesty is probably overrated as well, it's really about knowing USMLE + OMM for COMLEX.

I don't really personally care about whether there is objectively a difference between COMLEX v.s USMLE. That's up to administrative people and those who make tests. I care that the reality of the matter is that being COMLEX only hurts residency match prospectives. And the fact that anyone telling you otherwise really isn't looking out for your best interests unless you're really set on former AOA residencies.

 

[deleted646902]

I don't think DO school prepares you anymore for COMLEX than it does for USMLE. That is to say unless your school just avoided teaching pathology entirely. The format in all honesty is probably overrated as well, it's really about knowing USMLE + OMM for COMLEX.

I don't really personally care about whether there is objectively a difference between COMLEX v.s USMLE. That's up to administrative people and those who make tests. I care that the reality of the matter is that being COMLEX only hurts residency match prospectives. And the fact that anyone telling you otherwise really isn't looking out for your best interests unless you're really set on former AOA residencies.

That part of residency prospectives + DO Administrations pushing only COMLEX is a completely different topic on its own that I completely agree with you on.

 

[ButterButter]

I honestly disagree. I think the USMLE had enormous amounts of information that was largely far and beyond curriculum. It was entirely a test that judged whether or not you can use your background information to answer the question as best you can, never truly knowing that you were correct. COMLEX was very literally do you know the information necessary to do the job and the questions reflected that enormously. I had almost no straightforward questions on my USMLE and it exhausted me enormously. By my last 40 question block I was effectively shattered. In comparison I left COMLEX and still had enough energy to go drinking and dancing after.

I never had any of these weirdo questions on my COMLEX tbh. The worst one was a question that I couldn't even remotely make out what was going on so I guessed.

I think that may reflect more on your school's pre-clinical curriculum rather than on the USMLE's content and/or question writing format. I think DO schools in general do a little too much recycling from year-to-year and because they and their faculty are not connected to larger research/academic institutions, they fall behind on what is relevant in the land of the USMLE. To that point, there may be something to be said about how DO pre-clinical curriculum fails to address relevant USMLE topics in the same detail that the exam requires. That shouldn't be confused with the idea that DO schools "teach more to the COMLEX." That's only true insofar as the COMLEX is a weaker/easier exam.

What do you mean by saying, "COMLEX was very literally do you know the information necessary to do the job and the questions reflected that enormously." Necessary to do the job of physician?

I felt that COMLEX was more exhausting because many of the questions were not based on real science. I had lots of OMM BS and it made me cringe every time I had a question about Chapman's points, cranial, or what TART changes I'd find in a septic ICU patient.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't think my school prepared me for anything except the pain level and tolerance of hardcore boards prep. UFAPs + DIT is what got me my USMLE score, not my school.

I think that the COMLEX tested significantly more relevant comprehension of pathophysiology as it relates to say what a student might need to know third year to do well or not be entirely useless.

And yes, undoubtedly COMLEX is easier. My percentile for COMLEX was over 20 higher. Hence why I think that the minimal pass score needs to go up.

I'll take the headache of TART on ICU patient because I can smile and internally rage for 2 seconds over some of the questions I had in my last section of my USMLE which I to this day remember vividly.

 

[starri]

I felt that COMLEX was more exhausting because many of the questions were not based on real science. I had lots of OMM BS and it made me cringe every time I had a question about Chapman's points, cranial, or what TART changes I'd find in a septic ICU patient.

Who doesn't want to know about TART changes or Chapman's points? Half the reason they're even on the test is that they're easy to write questions about, which makes them easy points.

 

[ButterButter]

Who doesn't want to know about TART changes or Chapman's points? Half the reason they're even on the test is that they're easy to write questions about, which makes them easy points.

Me. I don't want to know about TART changes or Chapman's points.

 

[atomheart]

The USMLE will get a student screened in to interview at a residency that they may eventually match at. The COMLEX will allow you to graduate from DO school.

If I were an MD student I'd question this thread, then return to my study, content that I did not have to spend more money and days worth of precious time taking other tests to achieve the same goal.

 

[deleted646902]

Me. I don't want to know about TART changes or Chapman's points.

Then don't go to an Osteopathic school? SMDH

 

[deleted646902]

The USMLE will get a student screened in to interview at a residency that they may eventually match at. The COMLEX will allow you to graduate from DO school.

If I were an MD student I'd question this thread, then return to my study, content that I did not have to spend more money and days worth of precious time taking other tests to achieve the same goal.

Completely different subject that I agree with you on

 

[Goro]

@Goro - I am currently in dedicated however I have taken 2 practice exams of each... I would like to think I have earned the right to an opinion on this subject.

Your opinion is contrary to the experience of my students, and other SDNers, who have actually taken both exams. Suggest modifying your OP to:
COMLEX and USMLE practice questions are the same.

 

[deleted646902]

Your opinion is contrary to the experience of my students, and other SDNers, who have actually taken both exams. Suggest modifying your OP to:
COMLEX and USMLE practice questions are the same.

Respectfully agree to disagree Goro.

 

[ButterButter]

Then don't go to an Osteopathic school? SMDH

Hahahaha, if you think that learning and proliferating the use of pseudo-scientific nonsense is the role of Osteopathic medical schools in the year 2018, then you're obviously missing the point of the expansion of DO schools and the AOA. If you think TART changes and Chapman's points are worthy scientific pursuits, then you probably should stay away from USMLE.

 

[sab3156]

Who doesn't want to know about TART changes or Chapman's points? Half the reason they're even on the test is that they're easy to write questions about, which makes them easy points.

I actually want them to take it it a step further and put the real stuff on the exam, like voodoo magic and witch doctor treatments and homeopathy. After all, these things are all similar to OMM, and I feel sad that I don't get tested on real stuff like that.

I will only respect COMLEX if I can get tested on my ability to treat someone with a voodoo doll and with homeopathic medicine. But for now, at least we have Chapman points, BLT, and cranial manipulation. I just wish the MDs could see what we are capable of.

 

[deleted646902]

Hahahaha, if you think that learning and proliferating the use of pseudo-scientific nonsense is the role of Osteopathic medical schools in the year 2018, then you're obviously missing the point of the expansion of DO schools and the AOA. If you think TART changes and Chapman's points are worthy scientific pursuits, then you probably should stay away from USMLE.

OMM may not be everyones cup of tea (Cranial ..... ) but I have seen the positive benefits it has on many patients in my short time in medical school that narcotics never touched to show me the benefits of it. I may not decide to use it in my practice but you knew what you were getting yourself into coming to an osteopathic medical school.... OWN your decision to attend this type of training and stop self deprecating.... You must have been that kid in class that everyone always knew you hated OMM/complained about medical school because you wouldnt shut up about it.

 

[ButterButter]

OMM may not be everyones cup of tea (Cranial ..... ) but I have seen the positive benefits it has on many patients in my short time in medical school that narcotics never touched to show me the benefits of it. I may not decide to use it in my practice but you knew what you were getting yourself into coming to an osteopathic medical school.... OWN your decision to attend this type of training and stop self deprecating.... You must have been that kid in class that everyone always knew you hated OMM because you wouldnt shut up about it.

You’ll be perfect for an NMM fellowship. I bet you have those magic hands. Can you feel my CRI through the Internet??

 

[deleted646902]

You’ll be perfect for an NMM fellowship. I bet you have those magic hands. Can you feel my CRI through the Internet??

Nope - but I can see something that resembles an external sphincter where your nose is supposed to be

 

[darknecrosforte]

COMLEX seems like a more annoying test.

OMM is really useful on my infant. Overall, it made me more mindful of structural hindrances to optimal development. Her femoral external rotation made her transition from crawling to creeping during month 6 really slow, but now she's creeping like crazy (articulatory tx). She also had an overriding sagittal suture that had an audible click when I used the bone voodoo and now her head is less taco-like. I regularly rib-raise to attempt to give her the lung capacity required to make meaningful sounds. Even if this is all only 10% more effective than doing nothing, it's an interesting way to bond between QBank blocks and better than turning her into a Disney movie zombie.

Is it worth the other problems associated with being a DO student? Only time will tell. I plan on applying Psych, so I'm personally not worried or bothered.

 

[ButterButter]

Nope - but I can see something that resembles an external sphincter where your nose is supposed to be

Lol, anatomy comprises a sizable portion of COMLEX, so you might wanna brush up a little bit.