USMLE Scores: Individual Schools

[Law2Doc]

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Schools are free to combine, revise, update, etc thier curriculum all they want. Publishing step 1 scores doesn't PREVENT them from doing that, it just EVALUATES the changes in terms of how their students perform on the Step 1 exam, which you have admitted on many occasions plays a big part in residency selection. What good, from the students' perspective, is a supposedly superior education (based upon what?) that doesn't prepare students for the boards, and therefore doesn't help students land better residency spots?

Saying that it is silly for premeds to use average step 1 scores to evaluate potential schools is tantamount to saying that it is silly for Medical Schools to use MCAT scores to evaluate Medical School applicants. There are many other factors, but it is a valid indicator nonetheless.

I really have concerns about schools (like Texas Tech) that have a lower-than-average average score and a low pass rate.

In my opinion, ones board score is mostly a measure of personal preparation, not school related. Most allo schools cover all the Step 1 material adequately, and most students use the same handful of study aids, and find it review, not new information. However some schools seem to post regularly better scores, so it is credible that some school's courses are better prep for that test, or that some schools schedules allow for better studying for that test. Publishing of board scores DOES PREVENT schools from being experimental, as it creates consequences, where currently there are none. If it costs the school in terms of applicants to make an adjustment, they won't do it. And that hinders improvements. Bear in mind that Step 1 is but one target, and most schools are more worried about the targets beyond that one (i.e. making you a decent doctor, clinically).

 

[45408]

Schools are free to combine, revise, update, etc thier curriculum all they want. Publishing step 1 scores doesn't PREVENT them from doing that, it just EVALUATES the changes in terms of how their students perform on the Step 1 exam, which you have admitted on many occasions plays a big part in residency selection. What good, from the students' perspective, is a supposedly superior education (based upon what?) that doesn't prepare students for the boards, and therefore doesn't help students land better residency spots?

Saying that it is silly for premeds to use average step 1 scores to evaluate potential schools is tantamount to saying that it is silly for Medical Schools to use MCAT scores to evaluate Medical School applicants. There are many other factors, but it is a valid indicator nonetheless.

I really have concerns about schools (like Texas Tech) that have a lower-than-average average score and a low pass rate.

News flash: the nature of the game means that there will ALWAYS be a substantial number of schools below average! That's the nature of stats.

Look at middle/high schools that are now teaching standardized tests. Recesses are being eliminated, children are getting more homework, more stress, and they're not doing as well. Teaching the boards is a bad idea. The school will notice a drop in board scores and try to remedy that, but they don't want to be restricted from changing the curriculum because a one year "oops" could result in several years of greatly decreased applications.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

In my opinion, ones board score is mostly a measure of personal preparation, not school related. Most allo schools cover all the Step 1 material adequately, and most students use the same handful of study aids, and find it review, not new information. However some schools seem to post regularly better scores, so it is credible that some school's courses are better prep for that test, or that some schools schedules allow for better studying for that test. Publishing of board scores DOES PREVENT schools from being experimental, as it creates consequences, where currently there are none. If it costs the school in terms of applicants to make an adjustment, they won't do it. And that hinders improvements. Bear in mind that Step 1 is but one target, and most schools are more worried about the targets beyond that one (i.e. making you a decent doctor, clinically).

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I'll admit I was playing a bit of devil's advocate with my last post, but the way I see it is that residency programs (many of which are part of Medical Schools/Affiliated Hospitals) have set the stage by placing such a large emphasis (as I understand it) on board scores as a residency selection criteria. What good are excellent clinical dermatology training/rotations if you can't pull the 240+ board score that is a de facto cutoff to derm (and other very competitive) residencies. Maybe because I am interested in several competitive specialties, I am not willing to ignore average board scores as ONE indicator of the quality of a school. The best schools from my perspective have both.

If what you say about one's board score being mostly determined by the individual and not by the curriculum, there should not be large differences in the avearge board scores from school to school (assuming that ON AVERAGE, the quality of the student body from school to school is about the same.) I will grant you, however, that it seems like many top schools have average board scores that are pretty close, helping to prove your point. I am primarily looking for outliers that lie significantly below the averages of top-tier schools. I am concerned that there is something about the curriculum at those schools that causes their students' step 1 scores to be, on average, lower than others, and I don't see this as good.

 

[antihero94]

Baylor: 236
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230
USouthFlorida:~220

Don't know the exact number though...

Just an interesting observation. I am staring at my Step 1 score report and "for recent adminstrations, the mean and standard deviation for fist-time examinees from US and Canadian medical schools are approximately 217 and 23, respectively."

Interesting almost all schools on this list are "above average." Which leads me to believe you have a very bias sample, or someone is giving ou a load of BS (ie reporting the average score for their best year in the past 5, or giving you a median instead of a mean, etc.).

I agree with the poster who said its the individual who earns the score not the student. Your school certainly prepares you, but it is you who sits down in front of that computer.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

News flash: the nature of the game means that there will ALWAYS be a substantial number of schools below average! That's the nature of stats.

Look at middle/high schools that are now teaching standardized tests. Recesses are being eliminated, children are getting more homework, more stress, and they're not doing as well. Teaching the boards is a bad idea. The school will notice a drop in board scores and try to remedy that, but they don't want to be restricted from changing the curriculum because a one year "oops" could result in several years of greatly decreased applications.

News flash right back atcha: Yes, there are schools above and below the mean, but only fools choose the ones below the mean when they have a choice.

Again, I'm not saying that board scores are the end-all-be-all for choosing a medical school -- not even close, but saying that they shouldn't be a factor, like you guys are suggesting, is equally stupid....especially if you are interested in a competitive residency.

...and I agree with you that schools (not talking about just medical schools here) that only teach to the test aren't providing a good education, but I think that schools that say that they have a superior curriculum (because it is PBL, organ-based, non-traditional, self-paced, prepares you to be a better clinician, etc <insert whatever new trend in medical school education that you want here> are simply spouting rhetoric if they can't back that up with good (or at least an upward trend) in average board scores. YOU NEED BOTH (the innovative curriculums, etc, AS WELL AS the good results in the form of high average board scores.)

 

[45408]

Just an interesting observation. I am staring at my Step 1 score report and "for recent adminstrations, the mean and standard deviation for fist-time examinees from US and Canadian medical schools are approximately 217 and 23, respectively."

Interesting almost all schools on this list are "above average." Which leads me to believe you have a very bias sample, or someone is giving ou a load of BS (ie reporting the average score for their best year in the past 5, or giving you a median instead of a mean, etc.).

A lot of those schools are generally regarded as "above average" though. I think a lot of people forget how many state schools are out there that are rarely mentioned on SDN. Out of 125 schools, maybe half of them are regularly discussed on SDN, so it's not hard to believe that we wouldn't be talking about state schools in states with less competitive populations (for example, I know of one state school in a small state with an MCAT average of 26 in their matriculants - I'd bet that their Step 1 average is equally below average).

News flash right back atcha: Yes, there are schools above and below the mean, but only fools choose the ones below the mean when they have a choice.

Again, I'm not saying that board scores are the end-all-be-all for choosing a medical school -- not even close, but saying that they shouldn't be a factor, like you guys are suggesting, is equally stupid....especially if you are interested in a competitive residency.

Even then, I think it's a risky business. Obviously, we'd all prefer a school with a 250+ average, but a med school class is so small, with such different people with different study habits and skills, that I think unless the difference is over 10-15 points, you'd be lying to yourself to assume you'd be much more likely to do better at school+15 than the other school. The guy I know who scored a 250 and landed a rads residency went to a school with an average around 218, and he scored a 28 on his MCAT. What gives? Maybe we'll never know.


Obviously, this is irrelevant for Law2doc, myself and you, if you're in med school already, but what the med students say in pre-allo carries some weight, so I think it helps if we're all aware of what's important and what's not. It's worth discussing, just not fighting over. 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

It's worth discussing, just not fighting over. 😉

I don't think anyone said something that constitutes fighting words -- It's just debate. I agree with your 10-15 point fudge factor in how much weight I personally would give these stats.

 

[Guile]

I really have concerns about schools (like Texas Tech) that have a lower-than-average average score and a low pass rate.

Don't crack too hard on Texas Tech. There's at least one attending I know of at Ben Taub on faculty with Baylor who went there...right alongside the guys from Penn, Baylor, etc., except he doesn't have the $250K of debt the other guys do (from schools other than Baylor).

 

[63768]

i disagree...are you saying that just because someone is a PhD they do not care for their students as much as an MD? come on...there is no correlation.

sure what i said about PhDs not caring about teaching med students is up for debate. yet, you missed my second point which i should have emphasized more. this isn't an opinion that i'm making up, but the opinion of actual students at each different med school in texas.

now that i've read more replies, i tend to agree that it's less about the average and more about the individual student's motivation.

 

[future_dr_house]

tech this past year was 83-86% pass rate, which is abysmal. of course you don't see that in the average but apparently tech has a ton of problems with preparing their students for the USMLE.

i didn't know this yourmom, thanks! oh and my vote is for Misa but this avatar is nice too (certainly nicer than mine)

 

[Stitch626]

News flash right back atcha: Yes, there are schools above and below the mean, but only fools choose the ones below the mean when they have a choice.
Again, I'm not saying that board scores are the end-all-be-all for choosing a medical school -- not even close, but saying that they shouldn't be a factor, like you guys are suggesting, is equally stupid....especially if you are interested in a competitive residency.

QUOTE]

Hold on hoss. You're not even in med school and hardly qualified to be making such remarks. When you get to the magical world of medical school, you will quickly discover that med school is what you make of it. There's a kid at our school who got a 261 on his boards...and then there are probably some who scored low 200s. Same damn education. So what does this say about my school's teaching abilities? NOTHING. As previously mentioned, schools present the same material - albeit different formats - and things your school doesn't teach you, you will learn in BRS or FA. More than anything, schools' board scores are a reflection of the intelligence and diligence of the student population selected to attend.

By your standards, I guess I'm a fool for choosing to attend UT-Houston over UTSW or Baylor, seeing that they have lower published USMLE scores. But I can tell you this for sure, I am ranked a hell of lot higher at UT-H than I would be if I attended either Baylor or UTSW. And I can promise you that will mean a whole lot more to a residency director than simply the name "UTSW" on my diploma. You might want to do some long thinking before you make your final Tx ranking.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Schools are free to combine, revise, update, etc thier curriculum all they want. Publishing step 1 scores doesn't PREVENT them from doing that, it just EVALUATES the changes in terms of how their students perform on the Step 1 exam, which you have admitted on many occasions plays a big part in residency selection. What good, from the students' perspective, is a supposedly superior education (based upon what?) that doesn't prepare students for the boards, and therefore doesn't help students land better residency spots?

Saying that it is silly for premeds to use average step 1 scores to evaluate potential schools is tantamount to saying that it is silly for Medical Schools to use MCAT scores to evaluate Medical School applicants. There are many other factors, but it is a valid indicator nonetheless.

I really have concerns about schools (like Texas Tech) that have a lower-than-average average score and a low pass rate.

I think your analogy about medical schools and mcat scores is wrong. Medical schools are constantly trying to track what makes the best med student and later doctor. Generally, schools want to find the best students, and are making informed decisions.

I would guess applicants are making less informed decisions off of bad information all the time. People decide where they are applying sometimes solely based on usnews rankings. Clearly the rankings play no role in how much a student will like a school, how sucessful they will be later etc. So adding something like USMLE scores to the information used to sort out medical schools helps no one.

USMLE scores should have little to do with which school someone applies too. This wouldn't be the case however if these scores were public. Schools would have to fight over finding the students who will verifiably test better, and trend towards teaching FOR the usmle. Instead we should want schools to be finding the best ways to make us good doctors, and not confusing uninformed applicants and hindering their own resources.

 

[DoctorPardi]

Consider that medical schools have entire committees devoted to making the right decision about students. Applicants make the decision on where they go usually alone, or through the influence of a few others.

Often students make choices based on completely useless information. So giving students new information to base their decisions on is lose-lose for students and schools.

Now I am not saying medical schools make perfect decisions, but they tend to use "pertinent" information to make decisions vs frivolous information in the usnews guide.

 

[Stitch626]

If what you say about one's board score being mostly determined by the individual and not by the curriculum, there should not be large differences in the avearge board scores from school to school (assuming that ON AVERAGE, the quality of the student body from school to school is about the same.)

BINGO. The quality of the student body is NOT the same from school to school. Hence "top-tier" v. "middle-tier" v. whatever else y'all call it. You said something about looking for outliers. I will make your life easy - there are no outliers in Tx. They're all good schools that are capable of producing students with 250+ board scores and desirable residencies.

 

[Guile]

Hold on hoss. You're not even in med school and hardly qualified to be making such remarks. When you get to the magical world of medical school, you will quickly discover that med school is what you make of it. There's a kid at our school who got a 261 on his boards...and then there are probably some who scored low 200s. Same damn education. So what does this say about my school's teaching abilities? NOTHING. As previously mentioned, schools present the same material - albeit different formats - and things your school doesn't teach you, you will learn in BRS or FA. More than anything, schools' board scores are a reflection of the intelligence and diligence of the student population selected to attend.

By your standards, I guess I'm a fool for choosing to attend UT-Houston over UTSW or Baylor, seeing that they have lower published USMLE scores. But I can tell you this for sure, I am ranked a hell of lot higher at UT-H than I would be if I attended either Baylor or UTSW. And I can promise you that will mean a whole lot more to a residency director than simply the name "UTSW" on my diploma. You might want to do some long thinking before you make your final Tx ranking.

You are wise beyond your years. Well-said. Your statements echo things I have been told by wise old attendings.

 

[Hallm_7]

As a student who is beginning to prepare for Step I now I can honestly say the school you go to plays a pretty small part in your Step I score. The more important factor is the population of students who attend the school in question. We all use the same First Aid books, Board Review Series, High Yield Series, and Q-bank......from the most prestigious school to the least. If you're using a school's average board scores to decide between schools then you're a *****. Most likely you'll get the same score (within a couple points) regardless of where you matriculate.

Case in point: My school is right at average for boards every year. A mean somewhere in the range of 216-219 for the last three years. Our pass rates have been 96, 99, and 95% respectively the last three years (including 2006 scores). However, we had the person with the highest score for Step I last year (273...he could have tied too I guess so there may be more than one 273 out there). Did the school enable him to get that score? Not at all. In fact, I've talked to him and he essentially stopped going to class for the last few months and just studied on his own.

Also interesting is that anything over a 240 isn't going to be that big of a deal anyway. A 240 will get you an interview anywhere, but you still have to interview. A residency director isn't going to choose a 260 over a 250 based solely on the Step I score. There are far more important aspects of your CV at that point....things like your interview, your personality, your activities, and scholarly projects or research you've done.

 

[Twitch]

As a student who is beginning to prepare for Step I now I can honestly say the school you go to plays a pretty small part in your Step I score. The more important factor is the population of students who attend the school in question. We all use the same First Aid books, Board Review Series, High Yield Series, and Q-bank......from the most prestigious school to the least. If you're using a school's average board scores to decide between schools then you're a *****. Most likely you'll get the same score (within a couple points) regardless of where you matriculate.

Case in point: My school is right at average for boards every year. A mean somewhere in the range of 216-219 for the last three years. Our pass rates have been 96, 99, and 95% respectively the last three years (including 2006 scores). However, we had the person with the highest score for Step I last year (273...he could have tied too I guess so there may be more than one 273 out there). Did the school enable him to get that score? Not at all. In fact, I've talked to him and he essentially stopped going to class for the last few months and just studied on his own.

Also interesting is that anything over a 240 isn't going to be that big of a deal anyway. A 240 will get you an interview anywhere, but you still have to interview. A residency director isn't going to choose a 260 over a 250 based solely on the Step I score. There are far more important aspects of your CV at that point....things like your interview, your personality, your activities, and scholarly projects or research you've done.

A kid @ SLU also made that highest score last year.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Hold on hoss. You're not even in med school and hardly qualified to be making such remarks. When you get to the magical world of medical school, you will quickly discover that med school is what you make of it. There's a kid at our school who got a 261 on his boards...and then there are probably some who scored low 200s. Same damn education. So what does this say about my school's teaching abilities? NOTHING. As previously mentioned, schools present the same material - albeit different formats - and things your school doesn't teach you, you will learn in BRS or FA. More than anything, schools' board scores are a reflection of the intelligence and diligence of the student population selected to attend.

I'm plenty qualified to evaluate data, thank you. You, however, must be doing pretty poorly in medical school, because you obviously have trouble reading. Nowhere did I say that every score at a school = the mean score, which is what you are illustrating above with your example of 1 student getting a 261 and the other getting a 20x. The average step 1 score shows how well, ON AVERAGE the students at the school were prepared to take the step 1 exam. I'm wary of a school that has low average step 1 scores, and consider that to not be a favorable attribute for a school to have -- that's all I'm saying.

By your standards, I guess I'm a fool for choosing to attend UT-Houston over UTSW or Baylor, seeing that they have lower published USMLE scores. But I can tell you this for sure, I am ranked a hell of lot higher at UT-H than I would be if I attended either Baylor or UTSW. And I can promise you that will mean a whole lot more to a residency director than simply the name "UTSW" on my diploma. You might want to do some long thinking before you make your final Tx ranking.

I, personally, think you are a fool if you:

1) Chose UT-H over Baylor or UTSW (for many reasons besides step 1 scores,) but that is my personal opinion, and you could easily turn this statement around based upon your own personal opinion(s) so this is perhaps not very relevant.

but more importantly:

2) Chose UT-H because you thought it would be "easier' (i.e. less competition like you are implying above.) Med. school students, as a whole are a pretty smart bunch, and I doubt that you can be sure that you will be more highly ranked because you chose UT-H over Baylor/Southwestern. Do you care to share your current ranking/AOA status? Again, this is just a personal thing, but I, personally, try to challenge myself as much as possible. Choosing a school because you think it is easier is just not something that I will do. Hell, the whole reason that I am changing careers to medicine from my current career is [partly] because it is constantly challenging (IMHO.) If I wanted to play it safe/easy, I could just sit on my a$$ and keep collecting my current 6-figure salary.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

USMLE scores should have little to do with which school someone applies too. This wouldn't be the case however if these scores were public. Schools would have to fight over finding the students who will verifiably test better, and trend towards teaching FOR the usmle. Instead we should want schools to be finding the best ways to make us good doctors, and not confusing uninformed applicants and hindering their own resources.

So, answer me this: Are you 100% sure that someone's USMLE score(s) have NOTHING to do with the Medical School that they attended?

This defies my "common-sense test."

Answer me this too: Do you think a good doctor is someone that has mastered the basic science concepts well enough to record a high USMLE score(s) AMONG [MANY] OTHER THINGS?

Somehow people got the idea that I am selecting schools SOLELY based upon USMLE scores -- that couldn't be further from the truth, and I have stated this multiple times in my previous posts. I just think that those who say that a school's average USMLE scores have nothing to do with the quality of education provided by that school are wrong.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

BINGO. The quality of the student body is NOT the same from school to school. Hence "top-tier" v. "middle-tier" v. whatever else y'all call it. You said something about looking for outliers. I will make your life easy - there are no outliers in Tx. They're all good schools that are capable of producing students with 250+ board scores and desirable residencies.

Sure, I'll just take your word for it. That clearly makes more sense than using something like objective data. You've attended ALL of the TX schools, I presume?

 

[Stitch626]

I'm plenty qualified to evaluate data, thank you. You, however, must be doing pretty poorly in medical school, because you obviously have trouble reading. Nowhere did I say that every score at a school = the mean score, which is what you are illustrating above with your example of 1 student getting a 261 and the other getting a 20x. The average step 1 score shows how well, ON AVERAGE the students at the school were prepared to take the step 1 exam. I'm wary of a school that has low average step 1 scores, and consider that to not be a favorable attribute for a school to have -- that's all I'm saying.



I, personally, think you are a fool if you:

1) Chose UT-H over Baylor or UTSW (for many reasons besides step 1 scores,) but that is my personal opinion.

but more importantly:

2) Chose UT-H because you thought it would be "easier' (i.e. less competition like you are implying above.) Med. school students, as a whole are a pretty smart bunch, and I doubt that you can be sure that you will be more highly ranked because you chose UT-H over Baylor/Southwestern. Do you care to share your current ranking/AOA status? Again, this is just a personal thing, but I, personally, try to challenge myself as much as possible. Choosing a school because you think it is easier is just not something that I will do. Hell, the whole reason that I am changing careers to medicine from my current career is [partly] because it is constantly challenging (IMHO.) If I wanted to play it safe, I could just sit on my a$$ and keep collecting my current 6-figure salary.

First of all, the ad hominem attacks display your naivety. Tell me when you're ready to hold a grown-up discussion.


Second - no, you are not qualified to make sound judgements re: what are the best determinants of a "better" education. You speak of residencies, yet you haven't sat in a single lecture (sorry the one you saw on "second look day" doesn't count) or taken an exam med-school style. But even more important, you are oblivious to what matters most in obtaining a residency.

If I'm the one with the reading problem, you must have some comprehension insufficiencies (we call them LDs) since you seem to be ignoring all previous posts from knowledgable medical students. I find it sad that you would not only disrespect, but dismiss such potentially helpful sources.

You seem to imply that somehow I believe UTH to be easier then Baylor. Again with the reading problems....sigh. I said I would be ranked higher at UTH than at a more selective school, like say Baylor. This is common sense. Students at Baylor (e.g.) have higher MCATs then students at UTH. This would suggest that a student who is average at UTH would be below average at Baylor. I cannot believe I am even explaining this. Why is this an abstract concept? I also mentioned previously that all schools basically present the same material. Learning the material at one school is not anymore difficult than learning in at another school. THIS IS WHY IN TERMS OF USMLE SCORES IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT SCHOOL YOU ATTEND. Of course, if you factor in class rank, AOA, school reputation - that is another matter.

Hmmm, what else. You should be aware that there are hundreds of students who give up seats to top tier schools to attend state schools. So I guess you are calling all those people fools also.

And finally, it is extremely presumptuous of you to ask someone to share their class rank on a public forum. This is not as anonymous as you would like to believe. I will tell you that based on the number of classes that I honored, my exams scores compared to class scores w/ std dev and the fact that I received a scholarship based on academics that only the top ten kids in my class (200+) also received - (I was told this by the person who was responsible for handing out the money) - I think it is safe to say I am within the top ten percent.

But you're pre-med so you know everything. I forgot.

 

[Stitch626]

Sure, I'll just take your word for it. That clearly makes more sense than using something like objective data. You've attended ALL of the TX schools, I presume?

No...I was just trying to get you to shut up.

 

[Stitch626]

You are wise beyond your years. Well-said. Your statements echo things I have been told by wise old attendings.

Thanks. Good luck in the future!

 

[45408]

You, however, must be doing pretty poorly in medical school, because you obviously have trouble reading.

Ah, if you were in med school, you'd know that memorizing is far more important than reading or understanding.

USMLE scores should have little to do with which school someone applies too. This wouldn't be the case however if these scores were public. Schools would have to fight over finding the students who will verifiably test better, and trend towards teaching FOR the usmle.

Yeah, you think schools NOW focus too much on numbers? Just wait until they have to pump out docs with uber-high test scores. There goes any chance of considering your personal statement or extracurriculars. They'll just take the guy who outscored you on the MCAT.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

First of all, the ad hominem attacks display your naivety. Tell me when you're ready to hold a grown-up discussion.

?!?!?!? Go re-read your first [RUDE] post to me. Right back atcha.

Second - no, you are not qualified to make sound judgements re: what are the best determinants of a "better" education. You speak of residencies, yet you haven't sat in a single lecture (sorry the one you saw on "second look day" doesn't count) or taken an exam med-school style. But even more important, you are oblivious to what matters most in obtaining a residency.

I've done lots of reading, and many will say that STEP 1 SCORES ARE VERY IMPORTANT IN OBTAINING A COMPETITIVE RESIDENCY SPOT. Do you deny that this is true? NOTE: I am NOT saying that they are the ONLY FACTOR, just ONE IMPORTANT FACTOR>

If I'm the one with the reading problem, you must have some comprehension insufficiencies (we call them LDs) since you seem to be ignoring all previous posts from knowledgable medical students.

Seriously, there YOU go with the attacks. It is seriously a sign of personal weakness when you need to attack the poster rather than what they are saying. You did this in your last post to me (unprovoked by me) and you are doing it again.

I find it sad that you would not only disrespect, but dismiss such potentially helpful sources.

I have no idea who you are. Why would I base ANY decisions based upon the word of a stranger?

You seem to imply that somehow I believe UTH to be easier then Baylor. Again with the reading problems....sigh. I said I would be ranked higher at

AGAIN with the personal attacks. I must've hit a nerve (or have been correct)

UTH than at a more selective school, like say Baylor. This is common sense. Students at Baylor (e.g.) have higher MCATs then students at UTH. This would suggest that a student who is average at UTH would be below average at Baylor. I cannot believe I am even explaining this. Why is this an

You are saying that it would've been EASIER for YOU to be ranked higher at Baylor/UTSW. It is MORE CHALLENGING for you to be ranked higher at Baylor/UTSW. That's what I was saying when I said easier. Do you still think I am misunderstanding what you were saying? I think I've got your number....
.

abstract concept? I also mentioned previously that all schools basically present the same material. Learning the material at one school is not anymore difficult than learning in at another school.

....and you know this because you've attended every medical school? How DO you purport to know this? Maybe the list of topics is the same or similar but the methods of presentation are different.

THIS IS WHY IN TERMS OF USMLE SCORES IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER WHAT SCHOOL YOU ATTEND. Of course, if you factor in class rank, AOA, school reputation - that is another matter.

How do you know? You really haven't proved this by any stretch.

Hmmm, what else. You should be aware that there are hundreds of students who give up seats to top tier schools to attend state schools. So I guess you are calling all those people fools also.

If they gave them up SOLELY because the USMLE scores were LOWER at the state schools, then they absolutely are fools. However, I suspect that there were many other reasons that they liked the state schools better than the top tier schools, and they chose the state schools because other positives outweighed the negative of the [presumably lower] USMLE scores.

And finally, it is extremely presumptuous of you to ask someone to share their class rank on a public forum. This is not as anonymous as you would like to believe. I will tell you that based on the number of classes that I honored, my exams scores compared to class scores w/ std dev and the fact that I received a scholarship based on academics that only the top ten kids in my class (200+) also received - (I was told this by the person who was responsible for handing out the money) - I think it is safe to say I am within the top ten percent.

You talk the talk, so walk the walk. Guess you can't walk the walk. Sure, I'll just take your word for it that you're a bada$$.

But you're pre-med so you know everything. I forgot.

Oh, and you're an arrogant med. student 10+ years my junior. You obviouosly know everything, and I know nothing <sarcasm off>

For crissake, you can't even carry on an intelligent discussion without resorting to personal attacks! (HINT: The discussion was going on intelligently and fine without you.) You've really added nothing beyond what others have said before, so what was your point in posting [rudely] anyway?

 

[Stitch626]

To dearest "jota",

Well....let me say first the posts speak for themselves.

But even more interesting....I was doing a little investigation work and I see the only Tx school you have not interviewed at is UTH.

Can I get a loud wanh-wannnhhhh? 🙄

So you got something against UTH? Don't bother. UTH is way to cool for you. You are so NOT DOWN. You see, UTH is like the cool college kid you always wanted to be. And you're that weird old guy who keeps hanging around, trying to buy beer for the minors. Creepy. We don't want you - go away.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

To dearest "jota",

Well....let me say first the posts speak for themselves.

But even more interesting....I was doing a little investigation work and I see the only Tx school you have not interviewed at is UTH.

Can I get a loud wanh-wannnhhhh? 🙄

So you got something against UTH? Don't bother. UTH is way to cool for you. You are so NOT DOWN. You see, UTH is like the cool college kid you always wanted to be. And you're that weird old guy who keeps hanging around, trying to buy beer for the minors. Creepy. We don't want you - go away.

Yikes, cyber-stalker alert. At least I can get some wry satisfaction from knowing that you wasted lots of your precious medical school time cyber-stalking me, instead of doing something more productive/entertaining. I'm sure you are so, so cool if you have nothing better to do than sit around and cyber-stalk people on SDN.

Once again with the personal attacks from you.....

To be perfectly honest with you, I had no idea that UT-H's step 1 scores were so low (I'll take your word for it, based upon your posts in this thread.) I thought all TX schools' scores were about the same, with Baylor about 10 points higher. Tech is the other outlier with scores below the national average.

Quite honestly, if you are representative of the student body at UT-H, I am GLAD that I wasn't interviewed there.

 

[WestTexasRambler]

Y'all have got to have better $hit to do than to get involved in an internet pissing contest. I must admit I don't have anything better to do than read it but that is beside the point. On second thought, keep em comin'.😎


'Rambler

 

[Pshizzle]

I'll add my 2 cents. It makes sense that higher tier schools get better scores because of the quality of the students. I would think it doesnt have much to do with the ability of the school to teach. All med schools will teach you more than enough to do great on the USMLE if you have the capacity to absorb and use the info. It just so happens that top-tier schools have crazy awesome test takers... it doesnt mean that just by going to these schools your scores will magically be higher.

 

[exmike]

arguing on the internet.. very classy

Seriously folks, picking a school based upon Step 1 scores is just silly. Yes, the step 1 score is a huge component of your residency application, but think about it this way...

If the average Step 1 score is really high, you could argue that the students there are really smart, and thus, it will be harder for you to score honors during the first two years AND on rotations. So your class rank and chances for AOA will fall, lowering your competitiveness for a top residency. Do you REALLY want that?

Step 1, after all, is a standardized test. Lets beat this horse to death one more time. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET THE SAME SCORE NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO TO MED SCHOOL. Every school teaches essentially the exact same preclinical curriculum as mandated by the LCME. In the end, it will be your test taking skills and how hard you study that determines your score, not your school!

All of this brouhaha is exactly the reason why the AAMC does not release average step 1 scores en masse. The last thing they want medical school to become is step 1 prep factories. You premeds, please realize that there is much much much more to becoming a successful doctor (and third year student) than Step 1 knowledge. Things like physical diagnosis, how to talk to patients, how to ask relevant questions when doing a history of present illness, how to formulate a relevant differential diagnosis WITHOUT multiple choice selections, how to interact with faculty and peers... etc etc.. all things you will be taugh in your first two years (hopefully) that are NOT reflected on step 1.

 

[GuzzyRon]

is there a verbal scetion os USMLE? Only sciences? IS it passage-based or just multiple choice questions?

Can anyone who knows please answer this question?

 

[FutureDr2011]

arguing on the internet.. very classy

Seriously folks, picking a school based upon Step 1 scores is just silly. Yes, the step 1 score is a huge component of your residency application, but think about it this way...

If the average Step 1 score is really high, you could argue that the students there are really smart, and thus, it will be harder for you to score honors during the first two years AND on rotations. So your class rank and chances for AOA will fall, lowering your competitiveness for a top residency. Do you REALLY want that?

Step 1, after all, is a standardized test. Lets beat this horse to death one more time. YOU WILL PROBABLY GET THE SAME SCORE NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO TO MED SCHOOL. Every school teaches essentially the exact same preclinical curriculum as mandated by the LCME. In the end, it will be your test taking skills and how hard you study that determines your score, not your school!

All of this brouhaha is exactly the reason why the AAMC does not release average step 1 scores en masse. The last thing they want medical school to become is step 1 prep factories. You premeds, please realize that there is much much much more to becoming a successful doctor (and third year student) than Step 1 knowledge. Things like physical diagnosis, how to talk to patients, how to ask relevant questions when doing a history of present illness, how to formulate a relevant differential diagnosis WITHOUT multiple choice selections, how to interact with faculty and peers... etc etc.. all things you will be taugh in your first two years (hopefully) that are NOT reflected on step 1.

While most if not all schools will give you the same education to become a competent physician, and score well on the USMLE, it is also true that different medical schools present the information differently.

Also, remember that some schools use a lecture format (e.g. 8-5 PM), others have a hybrid PBL and lecture format, while some are entirely PBL. All of these things and the way the school's exams are presented effect their USMLE performance.

One can not just write off the USMLE averages as purely a matter of individual test ability, although this is a BIG part of it. There is also an important component in school selection and information presentation that can influence one's performance on the exam and how much individual schools give to students to study for the exam. All of these are variables...

 

[45408]

Can anyone who knows please answer this question?

the USMLE does NOT have verbal reasoning

 

[DoctorPardi]

So, answer me this: Are you 100% sure that someone's USMLE score(s) have NOTHING to do with the Medical School that they attended?

This defies my "common-sense test."

Answer me this too: Do you think a good doctor is someone that has mastered the basic science concepts well enough to record a high USMLE score(s) AMONG [MANY] OTHER THINGS?

Somehow people got the idea that I am selecting schools SOLELY based upon USMLE scores -- that couldn't be further from the truth, and I have stated this multiple times in my previous posts. I just think that those who say that a school's average USMLE scores have nothing to do with the quality of education provided by that school are wrong.

First of all, I don't know what role a specific school plays in determining the USMLE scores.

The point is, from any school you should be able to perform very well on the usmle. Think about taking the top 125 undergraduate schools in the country. My guess is any student from any of the top 125 schools has just as fair a chance at making a good score on the mcat as any other kid from any other school. It really depends on the person.

It turns out that Yale, Harvard (undergrad) etc have really smart, motivated students. So it would follow that their scores would be higher.

Consider that some of this will happen in medical school as well. Some schools will have a class full of super motivated geniuses and others will be less competitive. Their scores on the usmle I would guess are more due to their own work ethic than the way their school teaches.

Also, I am not suggesting YOU in particular are trying to choose a school soley based on usmle scores. I think people would do it to some extent if the scores were public. This would make schools want to compete for the highest yearly usmle averages. In doing so, they might get away from some of the more practical applications of medicine and instead teach a two year usmle prep course.

Consider that the USMLE might be a good predictor of how well you can do as a doctor, but it is just a test. I am not a med student, but I bet if you made a perfect score on the usmle, you wouldn't know an eighth of what you'll learn 2 months into residency. Some of the time in med school can be spent on teaching the finer details of learning to be a better doctor, instead of offering a prep course for usmle sucess.

The point is, usmle scores should not be what helps anyone decide where to go, because it is likely they are very much more dependent on you than the school. If you went to Harvard and to Uconn, you think at Harvard they somehow make you learn better? I think it is much more likely Harvard simply has the types of people in their class who tend to do better on tests like the USMLE, that is how they got to Harvard.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'll add my 2 cents. It makes sense that higher tier schools get better scores because of the quality of the students. I would think it doesnt have much to do with the ability of the school to teach. All med schools will teach you more than enough to do great on the USMLE if you have the capacity to absorb and use the info. It just so happens that top-tier schools have crazy awesome test takers... it doesnt mean that just by going to these schools your scores will magically be higher.

While it makes intuitive sense that schools that got their pick of the litter of applicants would have better scores two years later, it doesn't as neatly pan out that way. There are quite a few schools that US News wouldn't deem top ranked that actually brag quite high board scores, and top schools that frequently concede unimpressive ones (if they tell them at all). While curricula plays some role, a lot of this has to do with the timing/order of the material taught and the number of weeks off given before the MCAT. Because it is largely a test of self preparation, to some extent the schools that teach you less and give you more time to study may sometimes be doing you a service on the boards. Other schools (usually not the top ones) have their own board review crash courses, which may help (or may not -- I just know they exist).

But I do agree with the poster who indicated that the same individual would probably in the end get the same board score regardless of which school he goes to, because he will learn the same percentage of what is thrown at him and will be just as self motivated to plod through the board review books and Qbank questions at the end. Of course there is no real way to test this, until they perfect cloning.🙂

 

[Boris Badenov]

By your standards, I guess I'm a fool for choosing to attend UT-Houston over UTSW or Baylor, seeing that they have lower published USMLE scores. But I can tell you this for sure, I am ranked a hell of lot higher at UT-H than I would be if I attended either Baylor or UTSW. And I can promise you that will mean a whole lot more to a residency director than simply the name "UTSW" on my diploma. You might want to do some long thinking before you make your final Tx ranking.

I don't know how much I buy that.

You could make an identical argument for selecting any less competitive school, though in the end, I think you'll wind up understating how well you would've performed at the more competitive school while at the same time overstating the advantage you gain from small differences in grades when compared to your classmates at the lesser school. You may not like to hear it, but program directors rely on standardized measures like Step 1 precisely to negate the advantage that the applicant from the less competitive school feels he has gained with regard to class standing.

To take it a step further, residency program directors--you know, the target audience--were specifically asked by U.S. News to assess medical schools on a scale from 1-to-5. UTSW scored a very consistent, top-tier 4.0. UT-H earned a slightly above-average 3.3.

I'm certainly not going to knock your decision to go for a state school while staying in Houston, but I really think you're greatly understating the benefit a student gains--educationally and in terms of attaining career goals--by going to the "stronger" medical school.

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't know how much I buy that.

I don't either. While I know nothing about those specific schools, you won't appreciate much difference in rank in a class of folks who got A/A- grades or a class of folks who got A-/B+ grades. Anyone can get the high score on a given test, and all folks show up thinking they will be above average. Adcoms do a nice job of truncating away all the folks who made you look so good in college. And med school is a very different animal than college, and what worked in college generally doesn't still work in med. The folks that work hardest and smartest (better organized/focus on the right things) tend to be at the top of their class, regardless of what grades they posted in undergrad.

 

[WestTexasRambler]

I don't know how much I buy that.

You could make an identical argument for selecting any less competitive school, though in the end, I think you'll wind up understating how well you would've performed at the more competitive school while at the same time overstating the advantage you gain from small differences in grades when compared to your classmates at the lesser school. You may not like to hear it, but program directors rely on standardized measures like Step 1 precisely to negate the advantage that the applicant from the less competitive school feels he has gained with regard to class standing.

To take it a step further, residency program directors--you know, the target audience--were specifically asked by U.S. News to assess medical schools on a scale from 1-to-5. UTSW scored a very consistent, top-tier 4.0. UT-H earned a slightly above-average 3.3.
I'm certainly not going to knock your decision to go for a state school while staying in Houston, but I really think you're greatly understating the benefit a student gains--educationally and in terms of attaining career goals--by going to the "stronger" medical school.

Link or STFU😡 😡 (j/k)

I do think it would be interesting to see those rankings as I suspect there would be some real surprises.


Thanks,



'Rambler

 

[45408]

Rambler, those rankings should be right on the US News med school table.

 

[exmike]

While most if not all schools will give you the same education to become a competent physician, and score well on the USMLE, it is also true that different medical schools present the information differently.

Also, remember that some schools use a lecture format (e.g. 8-5 PM), others have a hybrid PBL and lecture format, while some are entirely PBL. All of these things and the way the school's exams are presented effect their USMLE performance.

One can not just write off the USMLE averages as purely a matter of individual test ability, although this is a BIG part of it. There is also an important component in school selection and information presentation that can influence one's performance on the exam and how much individual schools give to students to study for the exam. All of these are variables...

No offense, but you havent even spent an entire day in med school yet. perhaps you should wait until AFTER you take Step 1 to make those conclusions about lecture/education style and the impact on board scores.

Anecdotally, case and cleveland clinic had very similar avg scores for class entering '04 and case is lecture based (at that time) while clinic is PBL only. The only thing similar is that the two had virtually identical admissions stats.

 

[FutureDr2011]

Didn't know about the Cleveland Clinic and Case Western correlation...

That clears up some of the debate.

 

[exmike]

Didn't know about the Cleveland Clinic and Case Western correlation...

That clears up some of the debate.

You do make a good point though. You should pick a curriculum that you think will fit your educational needs best. The unfortunate fact is that we, as applicants, dont get to 'test drive' different educational formats (pbl vs lecture) before we commit to it.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

No offense, but you havent even spent an entire day in med school yet. perhaps you should wait until AFTER you take Step 1 to make those conclusions about lecture/education style and the impact on board scores.

Anecdotally, case and cleveland clinic had very similar avg scores for class entering '04 and case is lecture based (at that time) while clinic is PBL only. The only thing similar is that the two had virtually identical admissions stats.

But you're missing the point with your first statement. I, personally, am looking to go to the BEST medical school to which I can be accepted. By "best," I mean the school that is going to give me THE BEST medical education, and give me the best chance of landing a competitive residency, in a competitive specialty (I, personally, happen to be interested in some competitive specialties, among others.) While there are a lot of more "mundane" factors that will go into my choice of a medical school, quality of education will be a big factor. I want to not only get the best bang for my buck, but to also be as prepared as I can be to be the best doctor that I can be. So, how do you measure quality of education? Word of mouth? Don't measure it -- instead rely on plattitudes like, "You will get a good education no matter to which medical school you go"? There has to be some objective data, and Step I scores are one piece of objective data. While I agree that, with any standardized test, there are a lot of factors that will dictate an individual's performance on that test (many related to the individual him/herself) I have a hard time, from personal anecdotal evidence, believing that school/teacher/etc has NO bearing on an individual's grasp of material. Through a bureaucratic mix-up, I had to take the same graduate course at two different Universities (once when I was getting my Master's degree, and once when I was working on my PhD) and what I got out of the course varied greatly with the school/teacher/whatever other factors were different between the two instances of the same course. Perhaps not an apples to apples comparison, but I haven't seen any evidence (even anecdotal) that the individual medical school that a person attends has NO IMPACT on that person's step 1 score. I understand that something like this is hard to prove/demonstrate, but given that, can't you just agree that it MAY be true (and it MAY not be.)

Saying things like:

No offense, but you havent even spent an entire day in med school yet. perhaps you should wait until AFTER you take Step 1 to make those conclusions about lecture/education style and the impact on board scores.

.....is not particularly helpful, because by the time I take the step 1 exam, it will be well past the time that I have made my choice about which medical school to attend (obviously) and if I didn't pick the one that will give ME the best education, it will already be too late.

....which brings up an even more general point. Why is it that every time someone tries to start a thread listing step 1 average scores, a bunch of people have to pi$$ on the thread saying "Step 1 scores don't matter, blah, blah." That was the original point of this thread. What is wrong with having the information available? Oh, yeah, except for the fact that all of us premeds are idiots who know nothing more than how to pick a medical school based upon a ranked US News list, using no other factors (<sarcasm off> obviously.) Don't you have better things to do in Medical School then threadcrap? (Not directed to the post to which I am responding, in particular)

 

[MollyMalone]

The high road is really lovely. You guys should check it out sometime.

 

[Smokey]

On Michigan's website:

"Our admission process is predicated on identifying and admitting students who are eminently capable of earning a degree at Michigan and making meaningful contributions as physicians. We do not offer admission to any candidate who is not academically qualified, regardless of race/ethnicity, gender or any other characteristic. As evidence, consider:

The national mean for the Step One knowledge-based exam administered at the end of the second year of medical school is 217. The UMMS mean is 230. At UMMS, the Step One exam is required before beginning the third year of medical school.

Our success is reflected in our rankings: residency directors place Michigan among the top five for best graduates year after year, and our students' overall match satisfaction rate is higher than the national average. "

Per this little tidbit, it sounds like they are saying "we accept really good students, just look at their board scores." I go to a run of the mill state school and I know people who got low 20's on the MCAT and (at least one person) with a 40+. From the 40+ person's comments it was more about putting the time and effort in rather than having good teachers. This kid didn't go to class much, just studied by him/her self. Again, anecdotal evidence. 😳

 

[exmike]

But you're missing the point with your first statement. I, personally, am looking to go to the BEST medical school to which I can be accepted. By "best," I mean the school that is going to give me THE BEST medical education, and give me the best chance of landing a competitive residency, in a competitive specialty (I, personally, happen to be interested in some competitive specialties, among others.) While there are a lot of more "mundane" factors that will go into my choice of a medical school, quality of education will be a big factor. I want to not only get the best bang for my buck, but to also be as prepared as I can be to be the best doctor that I can be. So, how do you measure quality of education? Word of mouth? Don't measure it -- instead rely on plattitudes like, "You will get a good education no matter to which medical school you go"? There has to be some objective data, and Step I scores are one piece of objective data. While I agree that, with any standardized test, there are a lot of factors that will dictate an individual's performance on that test (many related to the individual him/herself) I have a hard time, from personal anecdotal evidence, believing that school/teacher/etc has NO bearing on an individual's grasp of material. Through a bureaucratic mix-up, I had to take the same graduate course at two different Universities (once when I was getting my Master's degree, and once when I was working on my PhD) and what I got out of the course varied greatly with the school/teacher/whatever other factors were different between the two instances of the same course. Perhaps not an apples to apples comparison, but I haven't seen any evidence (even anecdotal) that the individual medical school that a person attends has NO IMPACT on that person's step 1 score. I understand that something like this is hard to prove/demonstrate, but given that, can't you just agree that it MAY be true (and it MAY not be.)

Saying things like:



.....is not particularly helpful, because by the time I take the step 1 exam, it will be well past the time that I have made my choice about which medical school to attend (obviously) and if I didn't pick the one that will give ME the best education, it will already be too late.

....which brings up an even more general point. Why is it that every time someone tries to start a thread listing step 1 average scores, a bunch of people have to pi$$ on the thread saying "Step 1 scores don't matter, blah, blah." That was the original point of this thread. What is wrong with having the information available? Oh, yeah, except for the fact that all of us premeds are idiots who know nothing more than how to pick a medical school based upon a ranked US News list, using no other factors (<sarcasm off> obviously.) Don't you have better things to do in Medical School then threadcrap? (Not directed to the post to which I am responding, in particular)

who is saying the information shouldn't be available. I'm just saying that people who equate average board scores with school quality are terribly misguided. Your obvious obsession with step 1 scores seems to suggest that. Is it so wrong for me, as a third year, to advise prospective students (from my personal experience) to de-emphasize average board scores in picking a school? My experience and that of my many many colleagues at many schools a resoundingly suggest that step 1 has more to do with the individual than the school. by FAR. That is my advice, if you dont like it, dont get in a hissy fit over it. Just ignore it. By the way, whats your issue with med students posting. wouldn't they, more than anyone, have a good idea of the very topic of this thread?

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

Perhaps not an apples to apples comparison, but I haven't seen any evidence (even anecdotal) that the individual medical school that a person attends has NO IMPACT on that person's step 1 score. I understand that something like this is hard to prove/demonstrate, but given that, can't you just agree that it MAY be true (and it MAY not be.)

I don't think there are any schools that have NO impact, but if the impact is small (as most people here are trying to say) then why would that be your number one criteria in your judging of what school will give you the best education? It just seems silly to pick schools based on that number, when each medical school offers so many opportunities and aspects that will potentially shape your medical career, even more than step 1 scores

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I don't think there are any schools that have NO impact, but if the impact is small (as most people here are trying to say) then why would that be your number one criteria in your judging of what school will give you the best education? It just seems silly to pick schools based on that number, when each medical school offers so many opportunities and aspects that will potentially shape your medical career, even more than step 1 scores

Please quote where I said ANYWHERE that USMLE scores were my #1 criteria for evaluating/judging the quality of a school's education. You also seem to imply that I said that they were the only criteria that I was using to choose a medical school. Please quote where I said that. To save you some time: I NEVER DID!

I said that they were ONE, NOT the #1 criteria.

 

[steppwolf]

Meanwhile, news from the trenches:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=265475

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

who is saying the information shouldn't be available. I'm just saying that people who equate average board scores with school quality are terribly misguided. Your obvious obsession with step 1 scores seems to suggest that. Is it so wrong for me, as a third year, to advise prospective students (from my personal experience) to de-emphasize average board scores in picking a school? My experience and that of my many many colleagues at many schools a resoundingly suggest that step 1 has more to do with the individual than the school. by FAR. That is my advice, if you dont like it, dont get in a hissy fit over it. Just ignore it. By the way, whats your issue with med students posting. wouldn't they, more than anyone, have a good idea of the very topic of this thread?

My only "obsession" with step 1 scores is that they are one of the few pieces of objective (i.e. not anecdotal) data to use to judge the quality of the school. I appreciate the anecdotes from medical school students, I really do, but even in this thread, there are disagreements over what is important in choosing a school, etc. And this is EXPECTED with SUBJECTIVE data like anecdotes, "i.e. a friend of a friend scored a 260, and said that he would've scored 260 no matter what school he went to." C'mon, how is that useful information? In the interest of being constructive, do you mind sharing some other pieces of OBJECTIVE data that you feel are more appropriate to use to judge the quality of education that you will receive at a medical school?

No hissy here, and I don't care if medical students post, but why threadcrap? Why not start your own thread that says, "USMLE Scores are not a valid indicator of the quality of education of a medical school" or something like that -- hey, you can even do what others with lots of free time do and start a poll, but in the interest of keeping the SNR of threads like this high, please don't threadcrap (once again, not specifically directed at you since the threadcrapping started long before your first post to this thread.)