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USMLE Scores: Individual Schools
- Thread starter FutureDr2011
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No way. Rochambeau. I'll kick you in the nuts first.
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My money says Step I scores correlate best with average debt upon graduation.
Yeah...I'm not joking.
Yeah...I'm not joking.
S
Smokey
More debt = work harder to score higher = "better" (higher paying, that is) residency 😕
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this is toally bogus you guys...not only are you all posting completely unverifable data but board scores depend more on the students than the school.
When you think about a class of 200 med students averaging 220 versus 230 on boards, that doesn't really tell you much except that the second school had a few slightly more motivated students. And you guys dont even know if these numbers are true.
people from top 25 schools fail. people from unranked get 240s. the bottom line is that you have to put in a lot of personal work to do well on the boards.
When you think about a class of 200 med students averaging 220 versus 230 on boards, that doesn't really tell you much except that the second school had a few slightly more motivated students. And you guys dont even know if these numbers are true.
people from top 25 schools fail. people from unranked get 240s. the bottom line is that you have to put in a lot of personal work to do well on the boards.
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I think, from now on, what I will do whenever someone posts this advice is simply ask what other objective indicators of a medical school's educational quality exist. So far, no one has been able to answer that question. If you can't answer this question, you must participate in a game of Rochambeau, where I get to kick you in the nuts first. (I haven't yet thought about how that would work/alternatives if you are female.)
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Team. I'm just going to pick the school that I feel like I like best on interview day. And if that school is Hollywood Upstairs or Harvard, I'm gonna be proud.
The boards are totally individual, I am sure there are other factors, like how much "off time" (if at all) the school gives you to prepare, etc....
The "best" medical school for any of us is where we are going to be "happy." Imagine that. Happy.
The boards are totally individual, I am sure there are other factors, like how much "off time" (if at all) the school gives you to prepare, etc....
The "best" medical school for any of us is where we are going to be "happy." Imagine that. Happy.
R
R.P. McMurphy
My bad. You didn't state anywhere that they were your #1 criteria, you just made it sound that way 😉
So I guess what you are saying is, if you got into school A with a Step 1 average of 240 and school B with a Step 1 average of 210, you would go to school B if you were absolutely convinced by other "mundane" factors/word of mouth/personal instinct that you would get a better education there.........If that's what you are saying, then of course I agree!
Sorry to misquote you, you just made it sound like STEP 1 was the highest of factors to you
R
R.P. McMurphy
Great summary Jackie!
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This is not necessarily the best advice for those looking to pursue a competitive residency, IMHO, where board scores, class rank/AOA membership, and research are often 3 of the top factors considered (if not THE top 3 factors.)
I won't be happy if I have such a low board score that I can only match into FP or some other primary care field, for example, and I won't be happy if the school that I chose had something to do with that. But, yes, yes, I know, I'm supposed to take everybody's word for it that the specific medical school that you attend has NO impact on one's board score.
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Not exactly what I was saying, but similar. I have this absurdly long list where I am ranking the schools at which I interviewed based upon every factor that is important to me. The "mundane" factors that I was talking about were things more like location, cost of living, quality of schools (I'm married with children,) how much I subjectively like the city/campus/etc (ties in with Jackie's "happy" post.) But then there are other factors like curriculum, time spent in class, my perception of availability of faculty, clinical facilities/programs, variety/accessibility of electives that I would be interested in (and if they are available in pre-clinical years, etc) and then, yes, average step 1 board score, that I am using to evaluate quality of education. All in all, I think I have about 50 factors that I am using to rank schools. If I had reason to believe that one school was going to provide a much better education than any of the others, I'd probably consider that school my first choice, because at the end of the day, that's what this is all about for me changing my career and getting the best education that I could to prepare me for my new career. I'm sure that it's obvious that I believe that the average step 1 board score is one legitimate criteria to use for ranking schools, and nothing I have read has convinced me otherwise. That's the point that I have been trying to make (amidst name-calling, misquoting, and thumb wrestling.)
No big deal, no need to apologize. Things tend to get distorted in the muck.
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I dispute the score listed for Wash U. I'm pretty sure it is 238. Obviously 3 points doesn't matter except that we can't go letting Mayo beat us (despite their smaller sample size). Plus, Wash U's average was calculated before I took my test, so it is probably a 239 now.
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Prowler posted that that a 38 MCAT is most similar to a 250 on step 1. I'm not sure, but I'm betting he used the Step 1 Score Estimator at Medfriends (http://www.medfriends.org/step1_estimator/) to calculate it. Sure, it isn't necessarily representative of all USMLE testers because sampling is biased. But, since USMLE won't post actual data, it is the best source of info.
I think the strength of a school's step 1 preparation can be assessed by taking their avg MCAT score, plugging it in to get the school's projected average Step 1 score, and then comparing that projected score to the actual average Step 1 score for that school (if the actual Step 1 scores are released).
For example: Wash U's avg MCAT=37, therefore projected avg Step 1= 248. If you compare this to Wash U's 06 avg step 1 (238), you can see that we actually performed more poorly than would be expected.
Mayo on the other hand has an average MCAT of 32.4 and a projected Step 1 of 239--very close to their actual performance.
This doesn't necessarily mean that mayo is the better school--only that it prepares its students for the boards very well. It is unique among the top performing schools in this aspect. Again, any inference is only as good as the data collected.
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Hey buddy, I addressed this earlier in the thread. When Prowler said that a 38 is like a 250, he's talking about it in terms of the weight it carries in admissions. It's like the "wow" factor that a 38 and a 250 carry. They're about equal. HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT MCAT AND USMLE CORRELATION. I didn't think it was that difficult of a concept...especially for a WashU student.
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Thanks for telling me what Prowler is thinking in such certain terms. Perhaps you live with the man and have had the opportunity for pillow talk on the subject. Or, maybe you have just advanced to such a degree that you can read the thoughts of others. You must be very smart. I guess the rest of us on this forum just misinterpreted his post.
Regardless of what Prowler said, my point holds true. There is a correlation between MCAT and boards scores (if you trust the data reported to the score estimator website) and the correlation can be used to estimate the strength of a school's step 1 prep.
But, since you are so good at interpreting the thoughts of others, I'm sure you already knew what I meant.
4
45408
His assessment was correct, and you're just being a wise guy.
I think you're stretching the limits of correlations and assumptions to the max. If you want to kill the boards, you'll need to bust your butt through M1/M2. Period. If you already did well on the MCAT, you're more likely to do well on the boards.
R
R.P. McMurphy
A Law2Doc clone. I duno why but I cracked up when I saw that. Maybe it's a sign of too much SDNSorry for the interruption
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Wow! do you actually believe that? All it takes is a quick glance at the average Step 1 scores reported on this thread to show that that isn't true.
Of course there is a correlation--even if it is only based on the amount of time one puts in. If someone tends to study hard in college, chances are they'll study hard in med school--regardless of test taking ability. That alone will give you a positive correlation.
Perhaps you think that people who go to top schools suddenly slack off because they think they don't have to work any more?
R
R.P. McMurphy
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Why do people on here make so many assumptions? I'm an M-3. My own experience and the experiences of my classmates suggest that your theory of a negative correlation is dead wrong.
I don't mean to be an ass. But i just disagree with you entirely.
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aite. i guess i'm a little slow. i didn't realize you was just playin.
You get a few laughing faces for that.
Gotta admit, you had me goin
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There is a very slight correlation between MCAT scores and step 1. I believe the strongest correlation was between verbal and step 1 score, believe it or not. It's on Pubmed. However, the key word here is "slight."
D
deleted77919
Even if one woudl like to pick a med school based on avg board scores the problem is actual verifiable data is simply not available on any scale large enough to make accurate comparisons.
In terms of objective measures of school quality, what did you use for undergrad?
The only available objective measures I can think of for med school don't matter a whole lot (i.e. graduation rates, all US allos are high, does it matter if it is 97% vs 98%?). Then there's always match lists, good luck as a u-grad getting anything very meaningful from them.
In terms of objective measures of school quality, what did you use for undergrad?
The only available objective measures I can think of for med school don't matter a whole lot (i.e. graduation rates, all US allos are high, does it matter if it is 97% vs 98%?). Then there's always match lists, good luck as a u-grad getting anything very meaningful from them.
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To be completely honest, I used US News Rankings as the "objective" data in ranking my potential undergrad. schools. As I recall, Barron's was also pretty popular. I made this choice, however, 14 years ago, before widespread access to the Internet (or other "quick" information sources) was common. I chose the highest ranked school that I felt I would like attending. It turned out that this school was also the highest ranked school to which I was accepted.
So basically, I am trying to come up with my own way of ranking schools, using data and their respective weights (that I assign) to come up with a "score" (similar to how ADCOMS evaluate applicants at a lot of schools, as I understand it) for each school that I have the possibility of attending. I maintain that average USMLE scores belong on that list.
D
deleted77919
I don't disagree . . . I just question the availability of reliable information, making the excercise futile.
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OK, so the national average last year was 216 (according to published stats). The average as posted so far on this thread is over 226. I'm not accusing anyone here of intentionally posting wrong information (but something IS obviously wrong).
School's often seem to quote their average reported scores from the beginning of Aug. (or some time similar). This way, they've had time for their top students to get their scores in and those who delayed taking the test because they didn't expect to do as well haven't had their scores reported yet. The school didn't lie, they just didn't give you their most recent information.
I'd guess that there are maybe 10 schools (at most) per year that score above 225 average on step 1 (even fewer, if any do it consistently (ie: 5+ years)). If I were to take an educated guess, I'd say that the chances of an landing a school average over 230 is probably close to zero.
If we really wanted to get serious about all these numbers we could plug the average into some fun little stat equations and would probably find something like this: 68% (1SD+/-) of schools land between 209 and 223 and 98% (2SD +/-) fall within 201 and 230 each year.
In other words, you'd be a fool to make a decision based on the information presented in this thread.
Also, from what I've been told by my school 259 (I think) is the highest theoretical Step1 score, but many students score well above this.
Edit: You can move the SD's up and down a few to accommodate for foreign, DO's, and repeated test takers if you want, but the point is the same. Plus, I used a SD of 7.5 while it seems that it is most likely less than this in reality-->I've never heard of a school getting an average of 205. Meanwhile, if one school gets an average of 238, then, for the average to work out: some school must have gotten a 194 (highly unlikely), two schools got a 205 (slightly more likely), or 3 schools got a 208 (conceivable), etc. My point is: For every school who is claimed to average a >230, 3 schools had to get a <210. Still, after talking to med students from other schools, I've never seen this trend to be the case.
School's often seem to quote their average reported scores from the beginning of Aug. (or some time similar). This way, they've had time for their top students to get their scores in and those who delayed taking the test because they didn't expect to do as well haven't had their scores reported yet. The school didn't lie, they just didn't give you their most recent information.
I'd guess that there are maybe 10 schools (at most) per year that score above 225 average on step 1 (even fewer, if any do it consistently (ie: 5+ years)). If I were to take an educated guess, I'd say that the chances of an landing a school average over 230 is probably close to zero.
If we really wanted to get serious about all these numbers we could plug the average into some fun little stat equations and would probably find something like this: 68% (1SD+/-) of schools land between 209 and 223 and 98% (2SD +/-) fall within 201 and 230 each year.
In other words, you'd be a fool to make a decision based on the information presented in this thread.
Also, from what I've been told by my school 259 (I think) is the highest theoretical Step1 score, but many students score well above this.
Edit: You can move the SD's up and down a few to accommodate for foreign, DO's, and repeated test takers if you want, but the point is the same. Plus, I used a SD of 7.5 while it seems that it is most likely less than this in reality-->I've never heard of a school getting an average of 205. Meanwhile, if one school gets an average of 238, then, for the average to work out: some school must have gotten a 194 (highly unlikely), two schools got a 205 (slightly more likely), or 3 schools got a 208 (conceivable), etc. My point is: For every school who is claimed to average a >230, 3 schools had to get a <210. Still, after talking to med students from other schools, I've never seen this trend to be the case.
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But look at the caliber of the schools of the list. We're not listing the schools with the bottom 50 admission criteria. There are also few schools on the list, and they're pretty top-notch. I know when I interviewed at my state school, I asked what the average board score was, and their response was "we have a 98% pass rate" with a smile. I think it is definitely <216.
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If I'm not mistaken, DO students take the COMLEX instead of the USMLE, but I am by no means knowledgable about the DO licensing exams and their differences, if any. But, in terms of answering your question, DO students' scores would not be included in this average. I'm not sure why foreign medical students would be taking the USMLE, unless they want to apply for US residency. If they take the USMLE exam, they are included.
D
deleted77919
Many DOs want to go for an allo residency and thus take the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX. Many US students go to schools abroad (think Carribean) and have no intention/desire to practice medicine in Grenada, etc and thus take the USMLE and apply to US residencies.
S
Smokey
UPenn's Average Scores:
Year National Mean U of Penn Mean
2000 215 225
2001 215 232
2002 216 235
2003 216 236
2004 216 234
2005 217 236
They must be doing something right...some might say accepting smart kids, others teaching well
Year National Mean U of Penn Mean
2000 215 225
2001 215 232
2002 216 235
2003 216 236
2004 216 234
2005 217 236
They must be doing something right...some might say accepting smart kids, others teaching well
R
R.P. McMurphy
accepting smart kids is the answer
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I don't mean to make this thread flare up like a hemorrhoid, but the reason why I don't buy this argument is that it creates a logical flaw. In this thread (and others,) we have:
1. People asserting that it might be better to choose a non-top school, because there would be less competition (i.e. students are less smart.)
2. Lots of people disagreeing with this, saying that the difference in intelligence level between any two medical schools is not very high, because of strict admissions standards at all medical schools.
3. Then, people stating that there is no difference in the quality of education that you will receive at any medical school, at least relative to Step 1 Board Scores.
4. Consequently, people attribute the differences in average Step 1 Board Scores to the differences in the intelligence level of students attending different schools.
Seems like there is a logical flaw in that whole line of reasoning -- i.e. both theories (There are not significant differences in the intelligence level of students at different schools, and that differences in Average Step 1 Board Scores are attributable to differences in the intelligence levels at different schools) can't be true. I don't feel like debating which one of the two is true any further, but I am just making an observation here.
S
Smokey
Excellent Point. "The kids are so smart everywhere, it doesn't matter where you go" and "Big name schools do better because they get better students." I call BS on the first one. Overall, there is NO WAY that University of Missouri-Kansas City and East Carolina University have the same caliber of students as WashU and Duke.
I think that it is likely a balance between getting good students and putting them in an environment in which they will thrive (education, around good students, etc.).
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I'm not sure that people are asserting this. At least I know I am a proponent of going to your state school and saving money, etc. because it won't affect your residency chances much, and I do not assert this. I would definitely agree that there is an intelligence difference between the students at random state school and Penn, Baylor, WashU, Duke, et al. There has to be, but this doesn't say that the folks at state schools are slouches either. They're just "less smart."
But I would say that in large part the reason that the average board score is so high at top schools is because of the students that are there. I think the caliber of students at those top schools is such that you could put them in any environment and they could break 240 on step I. That's my take on it.
4
45408
That may well be, but it's also very likely that they're just less motivated to go into academic medicine, so they don't go above and beyond the average. Want to get into a competitive specialty? Any school has grads going into any specialty. Want to get into a premiere research lab at a top school? That's a different story.
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I don't disagree with you. I may in fact be one of those who turns down a "top" school for my state school when it's all said and done.
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Assume you get into those top schools (actually, it looks like you already have -- congrats) and turn those acceptances down to go to your state school. Haven't you illustrated, with your own example, the fact that top students attend state schools? What makes you think that your case is the exception rather than the rule (in life, money talks, so I don't think it is all that uncommon for some of the best applicants to turn down top, expensive schools for their cheaper state schools.)
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It seems like a pretty easy (though not necessarily 100% accurate) to judge the teaching at a school would be to take the mean percentile of MCAT and mean percentile of USMLE Step 1 score for each school, and rank them by greatest increase. This would obviously ignore a host of factors that go into educating successful physicians, but insofar as board scores correlate with competitive med school and residency admissions, it might be useful.
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Interesting debate.
I'm not sure the place for teaching in the whole deal. Of course it does matter, but at the end of the day, there is a finite amount of material that is needed to pass or do well on Step I.
So many factors go into doing well. The guy I assume is #1 in our class just seems to get this basic science stuff. He takes no notes when he comes to class, and he doesn't usually come to class. How much is the "teaching" helping him? We've got a PharmD in our class. Physio and Pharm are chip shots for him, so he can spend HOURS upon HOURS more studying one or two things now, while the rest of us have to study for pharm. Life ain't fair.
dc
I'm not sure the place for teaching in the whole deal. Of course it does matter, but at the end of the day, there is a finite amount of material that is needed to pass or do well on Step I.
So many factors go into doing well. The guy I assume is #1 in our class just seems to get this basic science stuff. He takes no notes when he comes to class, and he doesn't usually come to class. How much is the "teaching" helping him? We've got a PharmD in our class. Physio and Pharm are chip shots for him, so he can spend HOURS upon HOURS more studying one or two things now, while the rest of us have to study for pharm. Life ain't fair.
dc
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Baylor: 236
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230
USouthFlorida:~220
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230
USouthFlorida:~220
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bump
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Interesting Scores!!!
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Baylor: 236
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220[/quote]
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220[/quote]
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Baylor: 236
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish (2006-2007 mean. Step 1: 219, Step 2: 219)
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish (2006-2007 mean. Step 1: 219, Step 2: 219)
UMich: 233
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220
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Baylor: 236
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish (2006-2007 mean. Step 1: 219, Step 2: 219)
UMich: 233
UPenn: 238 (100% pass, 2006, from someone in admissions)
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220
Case Western Reserve University: 224
Cleveland Clinic 229 (100% pass rate)
Mayo: 238 (for most recent year, half the class scored in top percentile)
Northwestern: ~230
Temple: ~215ish
UChicago: 217
UConn: Step 1=219, Step 2=230
UIowa: 225
UMDNJ-NJMS: ~215ish (2006-2007 mean. Step 1: 219, Step 2: 219)
UMich: 233
UPenn: 238 (100% pass, 2006, from someone in admissions)
UPittsburgh 227
USC 232 http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/12830.html
UTMB: 226
UVa: 227
UWash: ~215ish
VCU: 225
WashU: 235
UFlorida: ~230 (I think I heard 233 or 234 for this year)
USouthFlorida:~220
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National Means and UH scores:
FWIW U of Hawaii gave me a printed sheet (about as close to "published" as these scores get, I'd guess) of their USMLE scores and the national means. Means are probably useful reference points for above scores too...
(Year: UH score, Nat'l Mean)
2005: 221, 217
2006: 221, 218
2007: 223, 222
2008: 225, 221
2009: 227, 222
The difference in average MCAT between a 37-38 (Wash U in St. Louis) and a 31 (national accepted student's average) is HUGE.
Outside of UCSF, UCLA, UMich, and such I doubt it happens that often. Who turns down Harvard for Florida State (no offense to Florida State)? Maybe one person once in a blue moon. You can easily make the difference in tuition back in the future due to increased connections.
