USMLE Step 1 Scores

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hereIcome

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  1. Medical Student
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I've heard many people say they use Board scores to determine which school to go to, but I'm having a hard time finding this information out. It seems most schools I've interviewed at say their school "scores above national average," but I have never gotten any numerical school average in order to compare one school to another. Is there a website somewhere that compares schools' scores?
 
I don't know of such a website, but I've heard that MCAT scores are on average a reasonable predictor of Step 1 scores, so it would make sense that if a school's students have above average MCATs, they'll have above average boards. It's pretty much all about how well you study for tests, I'm not sure the school is that great of a factor.
 
This info is closely guarded and you will not find it anywhere. Pass rate is more widely available from individual schools.

In addition, schools vary widely in when students take Step 1 (some take it after 3rd yr), so average score is not a reliable indicator of much in particular. If my favorite school had a 75% pass rate, I would be more worried.
 
A way to kinda ninja your way into it, if all else fails, might be to look at match lists. Lots of competitive matches MIGHT indicate lots of high step scores. Now, that's not totally reliable, as plenty of 250+ scorers go into general medicine or peds, but at the same time, it's tough to get into derm with a 190..........

You should be able to get at least an average score from the individual schools, but there may be some that don't want to give it out. The key would be finding the person who KNOWS the information. For instance, there's an Ed. D type at my school who does statistic analysis type work on our test scores and curriculum performances, as well as academic counseling. She could tell you the exact score breakdown for every class, as well as the match info for specific specialties and the scores those people had. Other people may not have a clue..
 
230?! average at keck?! damn, thats insane.
 
Often time your Step 1 score has more to do with your individual preparation and aptitude. Thus, schools who attract people who work very hard and are good at standardized scores (ie people with high GPAs, lots of ECs, and high MCATS) are going to tend to score better. Thus, higher ranked medical schools tend to have better Step 1 scores than lower ranked just by virtue of having stronger students in general.

Thus, if Big Fancy Medical School has a 233 Step 1 Average and "No Name Medical School" has a 225, it's hard to say if BFMS has better education or not. Maybe NNMC actually has better education and brought people who WOULD have scored 215 up a full 10 points.
 
I have a question that might as well be answered in this thread even if it is answered elsewhere:

How much does USMLE dictate which residencies you will get into? Put another way, how much weight do they put on it compared to class rank, research, publications, etc.?
 
BigRedder said:
I have a question that might as well be answered in this thread even if it is answered elsewhere:

How much does USMLE dictate which residencies you will get into? Put another way, how much weight do they put on it compared to class rank, research, publications, etc.?
Click to expand...

Depends on which residency you're applying for.
 
PeepshowJohnny said:
Often time your Step 1 score has more to do with your individual preparation and aptitude. Thus, schools who attract people who work very hard and are good at standardized scores (ie people with high GPAs, lots of ECs, and high MCATS) are going to tend to score better. Thus, higher ranked medical schools tend to have better Step 1 scores than lower ranked just by virtue of having stronger students in general.

Thus, if Big Fancy Medical School has a 233 Step 1 Average and "No Name Medical School" has a 225, it's hard to say if BFMS has better education or not. Maybe NNMC actually has better education and brought people who WOULD have scored 215 up a full 10 points.
Click to expand...

I actually find it interesting how WashU's INSANE MCAT average of 37 doesn't necessarily translate into stellar Step 1. I don't have hard numbers, but from I remember reading on SDN, WashU has like a 233, and so do schools like USC (plus or minus a few points) , which has an average MCAT of "only" 33.

And also I know that here at UC Irvine, they do very well on the boards (like 231-233) and their average MCAT is again "only". I know that administration here at UCI is very big on students doing well on step 1, they even bring a Kaplan review course here on campus
 
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Blade28 said:
Depends on which residency you're applying for.
Click to expand...

Ok...
So say you score in the 90th percentile and you interview reasonably well. Are you golden for all but the most competitive residencies?
 
hereIcome said:
I've heard many people say they use Board scores to determine which school to go to, but I'm having a hard time finding this information out. It seems most schools I've interviewed at say their school "scores above national average," but I have never gotten any numerical school average in order to compare one school to another. Is there a website somewhere that compares schools' scores?
Click to expand...


i don't know how current this is, but two-three years ago, it was reported on paper that stanford got the highest board scores in the country (average: 237, median: 241) (google the stanford dean's newsletter...circa 2005/2006).

that said, most good schools have scores hovering in the high 220s/low 230s....so i don't think it should be that huge a factor in terms of differentiating the places you're looking at.

hope this info helps!
 
BigRedder said:
Ok...
So say you score in the 90th percentile and you interview reasonably well. Are you golden for all but the most competitive residencies?
Click to expand...

90% score would probably be "around" mid 240ish? I think that'd hit most cut offs for competitive residencies. You're not "golden" though, you're going to still need great clinical grades, LORs, and research.
 
BigRedder said:
Ok...
So say you score in the 90th percentile and you interview reasonably well. Are you golden for all but the most competitive residencies?
Click to expand...

You still need great grades, research, LORS in addition to interviewing well and good board scores. It is more of a screening test used by residencies to decide who to consider for interview (the most competitive ones).
 
I don't know of any school that isn't capable of producing 260+ scorers, nor any school that has a consistent 100% pass rate.

For that reason I would not recommend using Step I scores as any sort of criterion for picking a school. I think the influence of a school over Step I scores is minimal. Anyone with the right motivation and strategy (developed by reading the SDN Step I forum!) will do well enough to not be denied interviews at any program in any specialty based on that score.
 
lord_jeebus said:
I don't know of any school that isn't capable of producing 260+ scorers, nor any school that has a consistent 100% pass rate.

For that reason I would not recommend using Step I scores as any sort of criterion for picking a school. I think the influence of a school over Step I scores is minimal. Anyone with the right motivation and strategy (developed by reading the SDN Step I forum!) will do well enough to not be denied interviews at any program in any specialty based on that score.
Click to expand...
👍 I will be relocating from pre-allo to Step I forum very shortly :laugh:
 
Heck no, you've got to start studying for Step 1 the day after you take the MCAT unless you want to fail to match! 🙄
 
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lord_jeebus said:
I don't know of any school that isn't capable of producing 260+ scorers, nor any school that has a consistent 100% pass rate.

For that reason I would not recommend using Step I scores as any sort of criterion for picking a school. I think the influence of a school over Step I scores is minimal. Anyone with the right motivation and strategy (developed by reading the SDN Step I forum!) will do well enough to not be denied interviews at any program in any specialty based on that score.
Click to expand...

But but, pre-meds aren't allowed to post in the Allo forums!! They always get moved here!!!!!! 😱😱😱

*joking*
 
hereIcome said:
I've heard many people say they use Board scores to determine which school to go to, but I'm having a hard time finding this information out. It seems most schools I've interviewed at say their school "scores above national average," but I have never gotten any numerical school average in order to compare one school to another. Is there a website somewhere that compares schools' scores?
Click to expand...

This info doesn't exist. Step scores by school are not published anywhere precisely because the schools don't want premeds to use them to pick med schools. If they did, schools will feel handcuffed to "teach to the boards" rather than do things like add research, early clinical exposure, PBL and other curricula experiments. So the info isn't made available officially.

And unofficial sources and lists are generally inaccurate, because, as you suggested, almost every school claims scores that are "above average". There have been numbers posted on SDN threads that were drastically different than the scores a school indicated to its own student body. It's easy to imagine how numbers get inflated when there is no way for anyone to check.

Truth of the matter is that, as mentioned above, how you score depends on the kind of student you are and the work ethic you have. You can do well or poorly on the boards coming from any school. The same courses are going to be taught everywhere, and in most cases will be taught reasonably well. Everyone will use the same First Aid, qbank/world question banks, and other board review books. So the tools to do well will be available anywhere. The rest is up to you. If there is a score distinction by school it tends to be more related to the students admitted than anything the school itself adds.
 
I would agree with Law2Doc on this. There is so much information in the first year that it is an overload. You forget 50% of it as you go and have to relearn it as you study for boards (although it's a little easier at that point). Just about every school is going to cover all the pertinent information.

Just hold on to a copy of first aid through your basic science classes and you'll see as you cover each of the topics. (I wish I had done this to understand better what matter was appropriate for the boards and which material was a bit more along the lines of "extra detail".)
 
There was a thread a while back, where current med students had posted the Step 1 scores over the last few years for their respective schools. In all, there was about 30 schools.
 
PeepshowJohnny said:
90% score would probably be "around" mid 240ish? I think that'd hit most cut offs for competitive residencies. You're not "golden" though, you're going to still need great clinical grades, LORs, and research.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

BTW, IIRC, a two-digit score of 90 is around 220-222 on the three-digit scale.
 
do you guys think that the students who have 4+ weeks to study for Step1 (by virtue of their school's curriculum) have some sort of advantage over the students who only have a few weeks?

I figured that would make a bigger difference than anything else. What do the med students think?
 
neurofreak said:
do you guys think that the students who have 4+ weeks to study for Step1 (by virtue of their school's curriculum) have some sort of advantage over the students who only have a few weeks?

I figured that would make a bigger difference than anything else. What do the med students think?
Click to expand...

Maybe a little bit. Not enough to justify picking one school over another.

Being a member of SDN will do more for your score than your choice of school.
 
lord_jeebus said:
Maybe a little bit. Not enough to justify picking one school over another.

Being a member of SDN will do more for your score than your choice of school.
Click to expand...
I'm wondering how many weeks of full-time studying is recommended to do exceptionally well on Step 1 (especially since someone else said that much is forgotten by the time you begin to study). I seems much harder than the MCAT but most people are taking a minimum of 2 months to study and countless full-length practice exams (and going through them with fine tooth combs) to prepare for the MCAT, at the very least.

But actually, I think time given to study for Step 1 would be a really important consideration when choosing a medical school (for me) since Step 1 seems to be the #1 factor determining whether or not you'll get the residency of your choice. In fact, I would say it's even more important than the relative prestige of the school, curriculum, grading scheme, etc...I'd be happiest at the school which will give me the best shot at getting the residency I want, and it seems that prestige, and curriculum or even MS1/MS2 grades don't factor in as much as Step 1 scores do.

I'm probably talking out of my a** here so someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
lord_jeebus said:
Maybe a little bit. Not enough to justify picking one school over another.

Being a member of SDN will do more for your score than your choice of school.
Click to expand...
:laugh:. Thank God for SDN :bow:
 
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Virgil said:
I'm wondering how many weeks of full-time studying is recommended to do exceptionally well on Step 1 (especially since someone else said that much is forgotten by the time you begin to study). I seems much harder than the MCAT but most people are taking a minimum of 2 months to study and countless full-length practice exams (and going through them with fine tooth combs) to prepare for the MCAT, at the very least.
Click to expand...

I did better than most with 12 days of full-time prep (but integrated a few hours of studying into my routine for months).

But actually, I think time given to study for Step 1 would be a really important consideration when choosing a medical school (for me) since Step 1 seems to be the #1 factor determining whether or not you'll get the residency of your choice. In fact, I would say it's even more important than the relative prestige of the school, curriculum, grading scheme, etc...I'd be happiest at the school which will give me the best shot at getting the residency I want, and it seems that prestige, and curriculum or even MS1/MS2 grades don't factor in as much as Step 1 scores do.
Click to expand...

Step I matters a lot, but so do other things. I'd give up 25-30 Step I points to have all-Honors 3rd year. I'd give up at least 10 for AOA (if my school had it). 10 points for a first-author publication in a big journal; 20 for the NEJM. I'd give 20 to have the name of my school be Harvard. I'd give 45 points to have a glowing letter of recommendation from Ron Miller (The big name of big names in Anesthesia, to which I'm applying).

Although my scores are probably a few points form the highest (if that) applying to Anesthesia, I still did not get interviews at a few programs. My app has no glaring weaknesses. Step I can only do so much.

I agree that MS1/2 grades mean almost nothing, and curriculum isn't that important in selecting a school.
 
lord_jeebus said:
I did better than most with 12 days of full-time prep (but integrated a few hours of studying into my routine for months).



Step I matters a lot, but so do other things. I'd give up 25-30 Step I points to have all-Honors 3rd year. I'd give up at least 10 for AOA (if my school had it). 10 points for a first-author publication in a big journal; 20 for the NEJM. I'd give 20 to have the name of my school be Harvard. I'd give 45 points to have a glowing letter of recommendation from Ron Miller (The big name of big names in Anesthesia, to which I'm applying).

Although my scores are probably a few points form the highest (if that) applying to Anesthesia, I still did not get interviews at a few programs. My app has no glaring weaknesses. Step I can only do so much.

I agree that MS1/2 grades mean almost nothing, and curriculum isn't that important in selecting a school.
Click to expand...
Besides "Harvard" or "Johns Hopkins," how much does name really factor? I've heard countless of people say that name means absolutely nothing to residency program directors but I especially value your opinion, Jeebus. Would I be at a disadvantage if I went to my state school (University of Nevada, School of Medicine)? Or is it more like the theory that going to a "no-name" school name can neither benefit or hinder an otherwise stellar application? If you had the choice between University of Nevada (~12k a year for tuition) and Dartmouth (~35k a year) for example, which would you choose?

And also, what about match lists? In 2007, 3 people (out of 54) matched into ortho at my state school, 4 in 2006 and 2 in 2005--is that a good or bad indicator?

Thanks, and sorry for asking so many questions.
 
Virgil said:
Besides "Harvard" or "Johns Hopkins," how much does name really factor? I've heard countless of people say that name means absolutely nothing to residency program directors but I especially value your opinion, Jeebus. Would I be at a disadvantage if I went to my state school (University of Nevada, School of Medicine)? Or is it more like the theory that going to a "no-name" school name can neither benefit or hinder an otherwise stellar application? If you had the choice between University of Nevada (~12k a year for tuition) and Dartmouth (~35k a year) for example, which would you choose?
Click to expand...

When you start sticking money into this, it becomes a very icky situation.
 
Virgil said:
Besides "Harvard" or "Johns Hopkins," how much does name really factor? I've heard countless of people say that name means absolutely nothing to residency program directors but I especially value your opinion, Jeebus. Would I be at a disadvantage if I went to my state school (University of Nevada, School of Medicine)? Or is it more like the theory that going to a "no-name" school name can neither benefit or hinder an otherwise stellar application?
Click to expand...

I think that as soon as you depart from those 2 names (maybe throw in UCSF and Stanford) you don't get much bang for your buck. However, I did notice at one residency interview that there was a place on my evaluation form where my school was rated on a 1-5 scale (and got a 3). I also know that my home institution uses a 5 point scale (and gives us a 5 because they love us). So there is some boost, but doesn't mean that without a name you can't overcome the difference.

Another way to look at it: When I interviewed at big names like MGH, most people (applicants and residents alike) were from the big name schools - HMS, Stanford, UCSF...but there was also a girl from MCW (and she told me her numbers weren't great either, but she had powerful LORs). These high-powered applicants were comfortable applying to only a few of the highest prestige programs; I was not. Being a mediocre student at such a school puts you in a much better situation than a mediocre student elsewhere. But if you can excel, you have much less to fear.

If you had the choice between University of Nevada (~12k a year for tuition) and Dartmouth (~35k a year) for example, which would you choose?
Click to expand...

Nevada, without regrets. 12K is a great price, and Dartmouth doesn't have much name power in medicine.

And also, what about match lists? 2 people out of a class of 52 students matched into ortho last year at my state school--is that a good or bad indicator?
Click to expand...

Can't be interpreted without knowing how many people wanted to go into ortho. 4% applying to ortho is not unusual, so you can't really judge that. It also says nothing about the strength of those who chose it. You also can't really say much about where people match, because preferences are very unclear. I'm about to rank my home program over a bunch of big names, but if I match there an outside observer might think I "settled" for that program, which isn't the case at all.
 
TheRealMD said:
When you start sticking money into this, it becomes a very icky situation.
Click to expand...
Ok, let's say that money is not an issue. Although I'll feel pretty bad for financially burdening my parents, they insist that they'll pay any figure I throw at them.
 
I think the more accurate question he's asking is is it ever worth it to pay for a "better" degree? We'll eliminate the top 10 since I don't think a person who got into those schools would normally give it up for something else.
 
Virgil said:
Ok, let's say that money is not an issue. Although I'll feel pretty bad for financially burdening my parents, they insist that they'll pay any figure I throw at them.
Click to expand...

Wherever you think you'll be happy. If you think you'll be a better doctor by going to Dartmouth (I have no idea if that is true), go there.

I turned down a full ride to go to a school (state school with small merit scholarship; I'm not that crazy!) that was a better fit and in a better location. I don't regret it.
 
lord_jeebus said:
Wherever you think you'll be happy. If you think you'll be a better doctor by going to Dartmouth (I have no idea if that is true), go there.

I turned down a full ride to go to a school (state school with small merit scholarship; I'm not that crazy!) that was a better fit and in a better location. I don't regret it.
Click to expand...
That's what I hear, and that makes a lot of sense.

In other news, I was looking through the Nevada match lists and found it notable that in the last 3 years, nobody has matched into any residency whatsoever at MGH. There's a few at Johns Hopkins, Vanderbilt, Baylor and UCSF...but should I be worried? Or should I just accept the fact that I'll never match into MGH from a state school like UNSOM?
 
It is also possible that none of the Nevada all-stars want to go to MGH.

I loved their anesthesia program, but I know people that found other residencies there rather unattractive. It depends on what you're looking for, what your needs are, where you want to live, etc.

Each MGH department has its own system, it seems very unlikely that they would have a universal anti-Nevada policy. Perhaps a more definitive answer could be reached by looking at where their residents do come from. I know that in anesthesia, people were matching from all sorts of nonprestigious state schools.

UCSF and Hopkins are very desirable places to be, and if people can go there, I'd bet they could go anywhere.
 
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lord_jeebus said:
It is also possible that none of the Nevada all-stars want to go to MGH.

I loved their anesthesia program, but I know people that found other residencies there rather unattractive. It depends on what you're looking for, what your needs are, where you want to live, etc.

Each MGH department has its own system, it seems very unlikely that they would have a universal anti-Nevada policy. Perhaps a more definitive answer could be reached by looking at where their residents do come from. I know that in anesthesia, people were matching from all sorts of nonprestigious state schools.

UCSF and Hopkins are very desirable places to be, and if people can go there, I'd bet they could go anywhere.
Click to expand...
That makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I too would doubt that the anesthesia, internal medicine, and surgery (just to name a few) residency directors made a pact to reject all applicants from Nevada. It also depends on what the applicants are looking for. I never considered those factors before.

Just out of curiosity, does MGH publish information on where their residents come from?

Edit: my apologies for hijacking this thread.
 
I don't know if you'll find much online.

For neurosurgery this year, MGH took one from Harvard and one from Loyola.
 
lord_jeebus said:
I don't know if you'll find much online.

For neurosurgery this year, MGH took one from Harvard and one from Loyola.
Click to expand...
http://residents.neurosurgery.mgh.harvard.edu/CurrentResidents.html

Holy crap. I'm looking at the current MGH neurosurgery residents and there's ONE guy from the University of Arizona for both undergrad and medical school, and he's the only guy who did NOT go to a big name medical school (except for maybe one each from Temple, Georgetown and UIC, but those are still very high up there). I'm going to try to keep a positive outlook by putting all my stock in the theory that someone who is hard-working and intelligent enough to get into such big name undergrads and medical schools CONSECUTIVELY is more inclined to do well in medical school, and thus match into a program like this...and someone who got into Johns Hopkins or Harvard or Yale probably wouldn't turn down that acceptance for a non-prestigious state school like Nevada (hence, not as many freaks in Nevada = less Nevada graduates at MGH). If I turn things around and work just as hard or harder than these freaks did in a less prestigious medical school (and hell, maybe do away rotations at some big name schools in my choice residency and snag a rec from Ron Miller), maybe I'll have a chance. I'm not doing a PhD. Either way, this crap is so far in the future for me to worry about...but if I ever want to do as well as these guys, I guess I better start getting my act together now as an undergrad. Hell, they've had all these years of practice in competitive top-tier undergrads and top-tier medical schools. I'm way behind. The competition is so friggin ridiculous...if this doesn't stop me from comparing myself to others, I don't know what will. Man, I'm just going to worry about myself, my career, my happiness and honestly just do my best from here on out, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm competing with such aberrations of nature. Damn.
 
lord_jeebus said:
Also notice how many of them have PhDs! 😱
Click to expand...

THEN again, what did you expect? Harvard's known for it's RESEARCH, clinical care seems to be a nice side effect. 😛
 
Something like neurosurg is going to have a lot of MD/PhDs. That really opens doors.
Look at UCSF's residents, about half of them have MD/PhDs.

http://neurosurgery.medschool.ucsf.edu/faculty_staff/residents.html

I have to agree that if you are a good student 3rd year, get good LORs and do well on the boards you will have the opportunity to do well in the match. I go to a middle of the road school that is unranked by USnews yet one of those residents from UCSF came from my school.

Remember too that not all programs are very competitive. Internal med, which is the jumping off point for a ton of specialties is pretty much a buyer's market.
 
TheRealMD said:
I think the more accurate question he's asking is is it ever worth it to pay for a "better" degree? We'll eliminate the top 10 since I don't think a person who got into those schools would normally give it up for something else.
Click to expand...

So do you think it'd be crazy to give up a top 10 acceptance for a lower ranked school that you simply liked better?
 
Tired said:
In general, I would avoid programs where a junior attending is suing the department head for suggesting she practice exotic dancing at the end-of-the-year dinner.
Click to expand...

Whaaat? :laugh: Do you have a link to this story?
 
Tired said:
In general, I would avoid programs where a junior attending is suing the department head for suggesting she practice exotic dancing at the end-of-the-year dinner.
Click to expand...
From the WSJ article posted below, it looks like it happened at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. I know it both are affiliated with Harvard, but BWH a separate program from MGH?
 
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