Two program is nice but if you can only one... USMLE is teh best choise
USMLE vs. COMLEX: advice from a 4th year
- Thread starter CityDweller
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
- Joined
- May 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,126
- Reaction score
- 151
(hope you aren't referring to me though)There's a saying (and a book) called DO's Eat Their Young, referring to the time when osteopathic faculty would actively discourage their students from entering ACGME training. Nowadays it seems that role is being filled by students instead. When osteopathic students who have actually taken and benefited from the USMLE are commenting, how can one rationally assert the test is unnecessary? 😕
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
Because it's not necessary for acceptance to allopathic residencies. Is it helpful? Depends. If you do well, then yes, quite helpful. Will it hurt? If you do poorly, then YES. Making the blanket statement that 'all DO students should take the USMLE' causes more harm than good.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
All DO students who want to maximize their chances of matching into ACGME residencies that are considered competitive that do not consider the COMLEX should take the USMLE.
Does that mean that everyone should take it? No. But I don't recall anyone saying that.
If you want to do a osteopathic residency or an ACGME residency that is traditionally friendly to the COMLEX like FP or peds, no. But I am sure there are competitive ACGME FP residencies that will not consider applicants without the USMLE.
It's safe to say that if you want the *best* chances of matching into an ACGME residency you should take the USMLE.
- Joined
- May 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,126
- Reaction score
- 151
Exactly.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
I agree. But with the disclaimer that if you think you are going to score less than average, you should not take it.
Unfortunately that's the message that is being sent anytime someone asks if they should take the USMLE and the answer is a resounding yes. It's easy to give that advice if you scored a 220+ and already matched, but if the 2nd year student who takes your advice gets a 196, you just ruined their life.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
That's a load of crap. If you aren't serious about taking the exam, then you aren't serious about wanting to maximize your chances of matching. "Take it only if you think you are going to score good." And how are people going to figure that out?
Lots of stories of people who thought they did horrible and did well, others who thought that they aced it and failed. Questionbanks can help predict your score, but there's no definite correlation between predicted and actual scores.
No, dude, *they* ruined their own life by not taking the exam seriously and prepping for it. Don't put that **** on me. You want to play safe and easy, take the COMLEX, only apply to osteopathic residencies in primary care specialties.
Live in fear, and never fully realize where you could have gone. That's the message *you* are broadcasting.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,990
- Reaction score
- 2,580
I've been reading through this thread and it's been exciting, really it has.
It's nice to see everyone has an opinion on this, thus proving the old adage about opinions and anal sphincters. But to get back to the basic question: should a DO student take the USMLE and COMLEX.
A lot of the opinions tossed around base themselves on how taking or not taking the exam will impact a student's chance on matching. And there are a lot of anecdotal statements with very little proof behind them.
When it comes down to it, there's no definitive comprehensive answer. The question should not be "should a DO student take the USMLE and COMLEX". Rather it should be "should I take the USMLE and COMLEX with career goal X, grade point average Y, extracurriculars Z, and so on and so forth".
The only generalization that anyone will agree on is: if you take the USMLE and do poorly on it, you've just shot yourself in the foot regardless of how well you do on the COMLEX.
Until someone designs a randomized double blinded study looking at the matching ability of DO students, with a COMLEX only arm and a COMLEX + USMLE arm, we won't have a good answer. Barring that, we'd need a consensus statement from program directors stating how it affects their decision making (but that will never happen, because they all have their own criteria and biases).
In the interest of full disclosure, I only took the COMLEX for level 1, and took both the USMLE and COMLEX for level 2. I matched into an allopathic EM program. I don't think my USMLE score made a whit of difference. But it was a nice way to spend a day and a nice way to spend a lot of money.
It's nice to see everyone has an opinion on this, thus proving the old adage about opinions and anal sphincters. But to get back to the basic question: should a DO student take the USMLE and COMLEX.
A lot of the opinions tossed around base themselves on how taking or not taking the exam will impact a student's chance on matching. And there are a lot of anecdotal statements with very little proof behind them.
When it comes down to it, there's no definitive comprehensive answer. The question should not be "should a DO student take the USMLE and COMLEX". Rather it should be "should I take the USMLE and COMLEX with career goal X, grade point average Y, extracurriculars Z, and so on and so forth".
The only generalization that anyone will agree on is: if you take the USMLE and do poorly on it, you've just shot yourself in the foot regardless of how well you do on the COMLEX.
Until someone designs a randomized double blinded study looking at the matching ability of DO students, with a COMLEX only arm and a COMLEX + USMLE arm, we won't have a good answer. Barring that, we'd need a consensus statement from program directors stating how it affects their decision making (but that will never happen, because they all have their own criteria and biases).
In the interest of full disclosure, I only took the COMLEX for level 1, and took both the USMLE and COMLEX for level 2. I matched into an allopathic EM program. I don't think my USMLE score made a whit of difference. But it was a nice way to spend a day and a nice way to spend a lot of money.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2006
- Messages
- 585
- Reaction score
- 1
what about the programs that are duel certified?
What about programs that specifically publish that they accept COMLEX scores?
People like myself are just looking for IM, ER, FP, residencies and nothing fancy is this an issue really to take the USMLE?
What about programs that specifically publish that they accept COMLEX scores?
People like myself are just looking for IM, ER, FP, residencies and nothing fancy is this an issue really to take the USMLE?
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 135
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm just curious as to why you opted to take both exams for Step 2 and not Step 1...
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,990
- Reaction score
- 2,580
Well, I figured since step 1 was primarily basic sciences, an area I'm not strong in, that I wouldn't do the greatest on the exam and there was no need to do poorly on two tests thus solidifying the issue. As it turns out I did fine, but it was still immaterial.
My reason for taking both level 2 exams is a bit more selfish. Honestly, I spent the money to take USMLE step two as a way to prove to myself that had I chosen to go to an MD school I would have done fine and that the education I was getting at my DO school was equivalent. Basically I just wanted to see if my performance on the USMLE would be on par with allopathic students. As it turned out, I did a bit better on the USMLE than the COMLEX.
I didn't take it because I thought it would help me in any way. I figured I was going into the military match out of medical school and they don't care COMLEX vs USMLE so there was no advantage to me taking it and a lot to potentially lose.
So now whenever I hear people say 'DOs don't get as good an education' or 'they're not as good as MD schools' I say uh-uh... I took your test and got two SD above the mean so my school educated me just fine.
A dually certified program will certainly know what a COMLEX means.
If a program specifically publishes that they accept COMLEX scores why not take them at their word.
If you want to do IM/FP, there is no justification to take the USMLE. There are simply too many openings in those specialties at too many good programs for it to be an issue... for a while. If you want to do EM, it's not as competitive as the ROAD specialties, but it certainly is more so than IM/FP. While the argument could be made that it would make some sense to take the USMLE in order to get into an allopathic EM program, I still am of the opinion (and that's all it is mind you) that it's not necessary. If you do well enough on the COMLEX that it sets you apart from the pack then that is sufficient.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2007
- Messages
- 135
- Reaction score
- 0
Congrats on your Step 2 score. Two standard deviations above the mean - impressive! I guess I'm in a different situation. I plan on doing an internal-medicine based subspecialty (GI); so, I'm looking to do my residency at a program where they have both internal medicine and a GI fellowship so I can begin to make an impression during my residency for when I apply for fellowship. The programs I've looked at are mostly allopathic; so, I figure I should be safe and take both COMLEX and USMLE Step 1. I'm going to talk to the programs directly soon, but I'm guessing they'd like to see a USMLE score. Oh well. Maybe I'll prove my education was as good as the almighty allopathic ones, as you did, in the process! Ha! Good luck with the rest of your slave labor - er, residency ;-).
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
Simple, take two NBME tests the week before. Bomb them, I guarantee you you won't perform well on the USMLE. It has nothing to do with being serious about taking the exam. You can be as serious as cancer and just not have the analytical reasoning or capacity for knowledge to do well. This example has been seen numerous times throughout history. Is that to say they aren't qualified to be doctors if they can pass the COMLEX but not the USMLE? That's a discussion for a different day.
You don't get it. You really think anyone who "takes the exam seriously" will automatically do well? I think there are people that would be offended if you told them they didn't take their med school tests seriously and that's why they failed. Think outside the box for a second. There are people who aren't as bright as you who can't get through life by simply "taking things seriously."
Nope. It has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with playing smart. I took NBME practice tests, then took the real thing and did very well. But I acknowledge there are others who might not be so lucky.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
Read for comprehension. Taking any exam seriously involves preparation. I see you conveniently left out that part of my statement. Which allows you to go off on a diatribe:
Again, what part of prepping for an exam don't you get? I could easily say that it's you who does not get it. Get it?
Wait, you took the USMLE? I'm shocked. Weren't you the one who said that you could match without taking the USMLE? Could you explain to me why you didn't practice what you preach? If true, this borders on hypocrisy.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
I will say it slowly and in caps this time, maybe you will see it or comprehend it more easily:
SERIOUSLY PREPPING FOR AN EXAM DOES NOT NECESSARILY TRANSLATE INTO DOING WELL ON THE EXAM
I'm not sure how many times you are going to keep saying the same thing. Yes, serious prep work is required no matter what. But having a serious attitude and working hard (prepping) does not automatically equal a passing grade in medical school. Some students just can't cut it. There were people who failed out of my class because they just couldn't pass the typical tests. A few of them I knew personally and they worked their butts off. They tried all different study methods, tutors, everything. They failed, yet they took it seriously, they prepped. They just weren't cut out for memorizing the large amounts of information and knowing what to do with it, plain and simple.
You absolutely can match with just the COMLEX in some allo residencies in the NY/NJ area, as I personally know people who have (in my residency as well as other fields). I also stated that taking the USMLE is beneficial only if you do well on it. I took the USMLE because I knew I would do well on it based on my practice NBME tests and therefore it wouldn't hurt me and could only help and this is precisely what I advise people to do. Was it required to match in an allo residency? Anecdotal evidence (which is all we have) says no. Did it increase my chances of matching because I did well? Probably.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
All I see, is a guy who talked a big game about not having to take the USMLE, who turned around and took it. Talked the talk but didn't walk the walk. Big effin' hypocrite. I see you, buddy. Proved my point and thanks for playing.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
Are you sure you're a resident? Are you seriously unable to differentiate between something being required vs optional? I see you finally conceded that just because somebody seriously preps they are not guaranteed to do well on an exam. Or are you still insisting that anybody who studies hard and "seriously preps" will do well on the USMLE?
Or did you finally realize that all along (see my previous posts) I've recommended doing 2 NBME practice tests before taking the USMLE to predict how you will do?
I've said multiple times it isn't necessary to take the USMLE to match to an allo residency, because it isn't. Plain and simple. Cut and dry. If you don't take it, you can still match. It is not required. I'm not sure how many other ways to describe this to you. Use a thesaurus if you still don't get it.
I'm not sure exactly what puzzle you think you've solved, but as long as it lets you sleep well at night, good for you. In the meantime, I will continue to tell everyone the following:
1) The USMLE is not required to match into all allopathic residencies. It CAN improve your chances, however --->
2) Doing poorly on the USMLE will hurt you more than not taking it at all
3) Take 2 NBME practice tests a week before your scheduled USMLE. If you do well, go ahead and take it. If you bomb them, do not take it.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
The simple question is why did you take the USMLE when you say that it's not 'required' to match at a ACGME residency? You say it's not required to match, so why take it at all? The answer is that taking it increases your chances of interviews and subsequent matching. You took it for that reason. Without it, you reduce your reach to programs. This is what I've posted, and it's not just me. People who have already matched have said the same.
If you truly believed that your chances of matching at ACGME programs isn't increased by taking the USMLE, you wouldn't have taken it. But you did, despite your assertion that taking it is unnecessary. Why would you take an exam that you've said is unnecessary to match?
#1 sounds a lot like what I've said:
You've parroted my advice and take me to task for offering the same. Get a grip, buddy.
You beat your chest about taking the USMLE and doing poorly and decreasing your chances. Well, duh, buddy, that's a given and implicit. Absolutely no one has stated that taking the USMLE regardless of your score will improve your chances of matching. That's a strawman you raised simply to knock down.
Your advice is mine - taking the USMLE increases your chances of matching. The sticky points is that you can't seem to let go is the statement that you don't need to take the USMLE to match. Another strawman - no has said to the contrary.
That jab question whether I'm really a resident. Dude, you know I am, as I know that you are not. I've been through the match. You haven't. I took the USMLE and it made a difference. It was mentioned in my interviews. It opened doors. No doubt.
If you decide to skip the DO match, and go allo, you will absolutely thank yourself for taking the USMLE. If you didn't take it, you will always wonder whether some program passed you over because you didn't take it.
I'm done with you. As much of a pissant as you've been in this thread, I do sincerely wish you well in the upcoming match.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,440
- Reaction score
- 11
Dude, we are on the same page. Show me where I've ever said that everybody should not take it. I've never recommended against or for taking it. What I have said is it isn't necessary to match, and doing poorly on it will pretty much seal your fate, so be sure you will perform well before taking it.
Again, I have trouble believing that you are this simple minded, seeing as how you are a resident. I never once said doing well on the USMLE doesn't increase your chances. You can match without the USMLE. It is not required. Doing well on it will increase your chances. Failing it as a DO will pretty much eliminate you from the allo match. I think the bolded idea is pretty easy to understand and I don't know how else to explain it to you.
No, what I took you to task about was flat out telling all DO students that they should blindly take the USMLE. I don't believe everyone has the capability to pass the USMLE despite serious preparation, and therefore don't think everyone should take it blindly. Take practice NBME exams and see where you fall. I've said this all along.
No, that was my response to you making a blanket statement that all DO students should take the USMLE.
So then why do you continue this quarrel?
I'm an intern. You can view my previous posts. I too have been through the match. Best of luck to you.
- Joined
- May 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,126
- Reaction score
- 151
Not that I want to drag out this discussion any longer (tkim basically hits the nail on the head with all his points) but I couldn't let this specific point go unaddressed.
Just because IM and FP are not as competitive globally does not mean that every IM or FP program is uncompetitive. This is some sort of delusion almost globally suffered almost exclusively by anesthesia and EM residents, in my observation. The truly upper echelon IM residencies are MUCH more competitive than run of the mill specialty residencies.
Why is that relevant? Because fewer US MD students are choosing primary care fields, these residencies are becoming more open to accepting other applicants. And, ultimately, what will ensure the survival and growth of osteopathic medicine isn't any "awareness campaign" from the AOA or the opening up of more schools. It will be when the best and brightest osteopathic students break barriers and start training at these powerhouse programs instead of the community and lower tier university programs we're at now.
Getting back to this discussion - when I see people talk about the USMLE being unnecessary because "there are fine programs that accept COMLEX" I see an explicit endorsement of mediocrity. As far as I'm concerned, any program that accepts COMLEX in lieu of the USMLE is not competitive. If you want to argue that point, fine, but it's obvious that a lot of people here took the USMLE and were outright told that it made a difference in the decision to interview at competitive programs. If you want to do GME training, for personal reasons, in a smaller community program that accepts COMLEX that's certainly your right. But, if you are an outstanding student who truly wants to maximize your potential, I feel you should be seeking training at an outstanding residency, no matter what the field.
Will taking the USMLE guarantee you get into these elite residencies? Of course not. But there is always a first time, and someone will be the first osteopathic applicant considered for acceptance. Taking the USMLE at least gives you a spot in the marathon, while just relying on COMLEX is like not showing up at all.
If you think that this is impossible, consider that 40 years ago DOs were routinely denied practice rights at hospitals and were rarely accepted into any ACGME training positions. Change happens gradually, but we need to effect that change. Our predecessors didn't accept externally imposed limitations and neither should we.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 7,629
- Reaction score
- 381
My apologies, doctor. Despite our disagreement, you have the right to be addressed by the title you've earned. Peace. Out.
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2004
- Messages
- 9,801
- Reaction score
- 138
Let us all keep the conversations civil, please. It seems so much of the "disagreements" have come from not reading the posts, but reading into the posts. Please remember to keep the conversations professional and constructive when giving advice. Thanks!
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2009
- Messages
- 1,990
- Reaction score
- 2,580
Oh, you're absolutely right with that point... err... except the part about the global delusion.
Arch Guillotti
Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 9,947
- Reaction score
- 7,424
This thread is way too long for me to read because all of the bickering on this subject has been going on for years on these boards.
I took the the USMLE (all 3 steps).
Taking it was one of the best decisions that I ever made. It absolutely helped me get a good residency.
I took the the USMLE (all 3 steps).
Taking it was one of the best decisions that I ever made. It absolutely helped me get a good residency.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2006
- Messages
- 952
- Reaction score
- 95
Arch Guillotti
Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 9,947
- Reaction score
- 7,424
COMLEX 3 was too much of a bother. It was only offered on specific dates and relatively inconvenient locales. It would have been a pain for me to get the time off as an intern as well.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2006
- Messages
- 952
- Reaction score
- 95
Pardon my utter ignorance-
So as DO's we need to take COMLEX 1 and 2 to graduate, but then it's our choice as to whether we take COMLEX 3 or USMLE Step 3 during residency? Also, if you wen't allo, did you take COMLEX PE before the Match in March?
Last edited:
Arch Guillotti
Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 9,947
- Reaction score
- 7,424
yes, to a degree.
almost everyone takes comlex 3.
If you want to practice in a state with a seperate osteo med board then you certainly need to take it to get an unrestricted license.
A lot of state medical boards just require competion of either one of the series, though. check the FSMB site for details
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2006
- Messages
- 952
- Reaction score
- 95
gr8. thx...
Arch - did you come through before there was this PE exam? plz tell me you didnt pay for two of those things.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2007
- Messages
- 101
- Reaction score
- 0
Any advice on a Peds residency and taking the USMLE in addition to COMLEX? I'm looking to apply to FL residencies. Thanks!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2005
- Messages
- 229
- Reaction score
- 2
OK. I feel I need to clarify the taking of USMLE and COMLEX for DOs for licensing.
You need the complete set of all 4 tests( step1, 2 written, 2 PE/CS, and 3) in comlex or usmle in order to get your license. So yes, a DO can take the USMLE and get their license....but most dont because most DOs dont take Step 1, 2 and 2 PE/CS in both COMLEX and USMLE. If a DO takes USMLE they usually take step 1 and/or step 2 but not the CS. All DOs have to have the first 3 tests in COMLEX completed just to graduate.
So, overall I think it would be a waste of money/time/effort to take all those tests just so you can get your license with usmle.
Last edited:
Arch Guillotti
Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2001
- Messages
- 9,947
- Reaction score
- 7,424
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2006
- Messages
- 63
- Reaction score
- 0
OK so I am definitely taking Step 1 of the USMLE since i'm thinking allopathic Anesthesiology or EM so far.
As far as scheduling goes, how many days would you guys recommend between USMLE and COMLEX. I was planning on doing USMLE then COMLEX 4 days later, does that seem like enough time in between? Any help appreciated, thanks guys.
As far as scheduling goes, how many days would you guys recommend between USMLE and COMLEX. I was planning on doing USMLE then COMLEX 4 days later, does that seem like enough time in between? Any help appreciated, thanks guys.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2005
- Messages
- 229
- Reaction score
- 2
I think I did 2 days. I would say if you have looked through savarese before then 2-3, if not then do 3-4.
