Usmle

[347932]

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It doesn't really make too much of a difference tbh. Yes it helps ingrain the structures more firmly if you find them yourself, but the time/benefit ratio is also bad. Spending 3-4 hours digging through fat and fascia just to show the whole brachial plexus 🙁

I think I didn't really explain, which I should have.

Getting to dissect your own cadaver and study from it helps tremendously if you are pursuing a surgical specialty like we are.

I am also a very visual learner so for me, it really helped a great deal in learning the structures. I was one of those Lab hounds, and went back during my third and fourth years to help the 1st years study for their practicals.

 

[flyhi]

Getting to dissect your own cadaver and study from it helps tremendously if you are pursuing a surgical specialty like we are.

Could not agree more with this. Having done it both ways, there is no comparison in my opinion. However, I am also a visual/tactile learner.

 

[myhandsarecold]

if you guys want to see if you can challenge the USMLE, you can download the sample Step 1, 2 CK tests from this website http://www.usmle.org/practice-materials/index.html and check your estimated USMLE scores here: Step 1, Step 2.

passing scores are 175-178, averages are 222-230

the results are fairly accurate

 

[G0dFather]

Thank you for that link !

 

[myhandsarecold]

U're welcome. I did the exam, came out to 83% without trying, est step 1 = 245, my actual score is 249 (last year). Pretty good predictor. The practice tests are simulated USMLE but 100% the same as the actual exam in terms of format and software.

 

[dyk343]

I feel like my anatomy training was pretty adequate...

Origin/insertion/innervation for every muscle in the body. Major nerve/vessel branching patterns. Study of organ systems and embryology. I dont think they could really teach us much more....

I'm sure every other pod school is the same.

 

[darazon]

I feel like my anatomy training was pretty adequate...

Origin/insertion/innervation for every muscle in the body. Major nerve/vessel branching patterns. Study of organ systems and embryology. I dont think they could really teach us much more....

I'm sure every other pod school is the same.

I agree. However, It's not so much how they teach, but how they test. If you are not used to USMLE style questions, you will not do well on the USMLE no matter how well you think you were taught.

 

[dyk343]

I agree. However, It's not so much how they teach, but how they test. If you are not used to USMLE style questions, you will not do well on the USMLE no matter how well you think you were taught.

Yeah I agree, my general anatomy was pretty straight forward in terms of test questions.

But my lower extremity anatomy was much more clinically based in terms of test questions.

I would estimate that its about 50/50 between straight fact and clinical based questions for my courses. Some more straight fact regurgitation, some more clinical.

I havent taken the APMLE yet so I cant comment on how the test is structured. All I know is that my education is not a walk in the park. I've worked very hard for my grades.

 

[347932]

I agree. However, It's not so much how they teach, but how they test. If you are not used to USMLE style questions, you will not do well on the USMLE no matter how well you think you were taught.

Better learn quick or your Surgery Boards will rock you.

 

[DPMer]

I feel like my anatomy training was pretty adequate...

Origin/insertion/innervation for every muscle in the body. Major nerve/vessel branching patterns. Study of organ systems and embryology. I dont think they could really teach us much more....

I'm sure every other pod school is the same.

I remember pimping a 3rd year allopath MD student who did a clerkship in Internal Medicine: I asked what is the pes anserinus? The student did not know. Then I told him I thought you MD students know your anatomy head to toe? He said anatomy is taught more clinically, not didactically. To me, this did not make sense. It is simply, if you do not know, you simply do not know. Us pod students know anatomy that allopath students actually do not know (especially lower extremity). IMO, allopath students should know head to toe anatomy well into their third year since they were taught the head to toe anatomy material in first year.

 

[darazon]

Unless a DO/MD is pursuing a surgical subspecialty, there really is not a huge incentive to keep up with anatomy. A lot of the 3rd years I know admit their anatomy is weak. Yes at one point they knew it well, even the pes anserinus, but a lot gets forgotten after Step 1. Anatomy is tested on step 1, but not to the degree it is on the APMLE. It is not really tested on step 2 or 3.

Anatomy is not a huge pimping topic for MD/DOs like it is for DPM students. I am not surprised a Junior MD student couldn't recall the pes anserinus. Unless he's gunning for ortho, there is no incentive.

 

[DPMer]

Medical students in general are not taught lower extremity anatomy in the depth that podiatry students are taught. I think this is very common at most medical schools. The Scholl students take gross anatomy with the Chicago Medical School (CMS) students here at RFUMS and during this course we had a total of 6 lectures on the lower extremity and 1 test. That was it.

That's nothing in comparison to the lower extremity anatomy course podiatry students take at their respective podiatry schools

Interesting...at least it is good to know we DPMers are smarter in something than the MDers. 😀

But appalling...6 lectures on lower and 1 test?????? 😱 What a waste of tuition money! Hippocrates would not be happy

 

[myhandsarecold]

.

 

[hematosis]

if you guys want to see if you can challenge the USMLE, you can download the sample Step 1, 2 CK tests from this website http://www.usmle.org/practice-materials/index.html and check your estimated USMLE scores here: Step 1, Step 2.

passing scores are 175-178, averages are 222-230

the results are fairly accurate

anyone else try this?

the predictor website estimates a 205 for my overall. i guess that would be a pretty low pass. had to guess on some topics that our school didn't cover This test is doable. it actually reminds me a lot of the mcat passage based questions, but much less challenging.
I really wish we could sit for these exams.

 

[hematosis]

Unless a DO/MD is pursuing a surgical subspecialty, there really is not a huge incentive to keep up with anatomy. A lot of the 3rd years I know admit their anatomy is weak. Yes at one point they knew it well, even the pes anserinus, but a lot gets forgotten after Step 1. Anatomy is tested on step 1, but not to the degree it is on the APMLE. It is not really tested on step 2 or 3.

Anatomy is not a huge pimping topic for MD/DOs like it is for DPM students. I am not surprised a Junior MD student couldn't recall the pes anserinus. Unless he's gunning for ortho, there is no incentive.

If by anatomy you mean lower extremity, then i agree that it is more of a "pimping" topic for DPM's. General anatomy is not a big deal and it is hardly tested on the podiatry boards.

 

[hematosis]

I remember pimping a 3rd year allopath MD student who did a clerkship in Internal Medicine: I asked what is the pes anserinus? The student did not know. Then I told him I thought you MD students know your anatomy head to toe? He said anatomy is taught more clinically, not didactically. To me, this did not make sense. It is simply, if you do not know, you simply do not know. Us pod students know anatomy that allopath students actually do not know (especially lower extremity). IMO, allopath students should know head to toe anatomy well into their third year since they were taught the head to toe anatomy material in first year.

There is a difference between Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy. Physicians do not need to master Gross Anatomy in order to practice medicine. (there are certain excepts like surgeons who must know both really well.)

 

[347932]

Physicians do not need to master Gross Anatomy in order to practice medicine...

They don't? Please explain.

 

[DPMer]

There is a difference between Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy. Physicians do not need to master Gross Anatomy in order to practice medicine. (there are certain excepts like surgeons who must know both really well.)

I agree with Dr Kidsfeet. Clarify. What is the difference between Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy in clinical practice? To me, they are both the same. Even surface anatomy of the human body is found in both Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy. I mean, Gross Anatomy lecture and cadaver labs mention clinical vignettes and clinical correlations as part of the course for first year pod school AND first year allopath school in the exams.

When for example a Family Practioner or an Internist in an office setting is suspicious of diabetes inspidus in an outpatient, Gross Anatomy is very relevant to confirm the diagnosis. What organ is involved? Where in the body is the organ located? What other organs in the human body are affected by diabetes inspidus? Etc etc etc. Of course there is surface anatomy when performing the focused H&P. PCPs use Gross Anatomy everyday in the clinic on outpatients for non emergent medical conditions and injuries. What more when PCPs or specialists treat inpatients in the hospital for urgent/emergent medical diseases or injuries??? Gross Anatomy is even more relevant to save that patient's life. Cardiologists are perfect examples. Not all of them are surgeons, but they treat urgent/emergent medical conditions of the heart that requires knowing Gross Anatomy of the heart. You have to know gross anatomy before you understand clinical anatomy. Not the other way around.

 

[myhandsarecold]

I agree with Dr Kidsfeet. Clarify. What is the difference between Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy in clinical practice? To me, they are both the same. Even surface anatomy of the human body is found in both Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy. I mean, Gross Anatomy lecture and cadaver labs mention clinical vignettes and clinical correlations as part of the course for first year pod school AND first year allopath school in the exams.

When for example a Family Practioner or an Internist in an office setting is suspicious of diabetes inspidus in an outpatient, Gross Anatomy is very relevant to confirm the diagnosis. What organ is involved? Where in the body is the organ located? What other organs in the human body are affected by diabetes inspidus? Etc etc etc. Of course there is surface anatomy when performing the focused H&P. PCPs use Gross Anatomy everyday in the clinic on outpatients for non emergent medical conditions and injuries. What more when PCPs or specialists treat inpatients in the hospital for urgent/emergent medical diseases or injuries??? Gross Anatomy is even more relevant to save that patient's life. Cardiologists are perfect examples. Not all of them are surgeons, but they treat urgent/emergent medical conditions of the heart that requires knowing Gross Anatomy of the heart. You have to know gross anatomy before you understand clinical anatomy. Not the other way around.

you're overestimating the importance of anatomy. no one will know it in depth. and no, diabetes will usually not present through obvious physical symptoms nor would we diagnose complications based on our knowledge of anatomy!!! and cardiologists are the worst when it comes to anatomy (i just did my cardio month and you do not asks cardiologists anatomy questions). also, i can draw pes anserinus for you from the top of my head only because I did an ortho month and had to know that, otherwise, ordinary 3rd years will have no incentive to remember that info because there's not much pathology there = not very important = can be sacrificed for more brain space.

 

[347932]

...you're overestimating the importance of anatomy.

Why is it taught in such detail then?

Even though many MD Students will never touch a knife in their careers, anatomy is paramount.

Try telling a neurologist, a radiologist or a pathologist that anatomy is not important. These are non surgical specialties that rely on their fundamental knowledge of anatomy every single day.

More medical careers rely on Anatomy than I think you realize. I find it interesting that an MD student is being rather non-chalant about the necessity for a firm knowledge of anatomy. What specialties don't use anatomy a good bit? How do they not? Even if it's a simple case of Sinusitis.

 

[DPMer]

you're overestimating the importance of anatomy. no one will know it in depth. and no, diabetes will usually not present through obvious physical symptoms nor would we diagnose complications based on our knowledge of anatomy!!! and cardiologists are the worst when it comes to anatomy (i just did my cardio month and you do not asks cardiologists anatomy questions). also, i can draw pes anserinus for you from the top of my head only because I did an ortho month and had to know that, otherwise, ordinary 3rd years will have no incentive to remember that info because there's not much pathology there = not very important = can be sacrificed for more brain space.

REALLY?? What a waste of tuition money then! I guess the nurse dude from the movie MEET THE PARENTS who perfected the MCATs but chose to go into nursing school illustrated it very well. Hippocrates would also be disappointed indeed with the petty politics and hypocrisy, especially in your white coat ceremonies. Watch the movie MEET THE PARENTS to know what I mean.

 

[myhandsarecold]

Why is it taught in such detail then?

Even though many MD Students will never touch a knife in their careers, anatomy is paramount.

Try telling a neurologist, a radiologist or a pathologist that anatomy is not important. These are non surgical specialties that rely on their fundamental knowledge of anatomy every single day.

More medical careers rely on Anatomy than I think you realize. I find it interesting that an MD student is being rather non-chalant about the necessity for a firm knowledge of anatomy. What specialties don't use anatomy a good bit? How do they not? Even if it's a simple case of Sinusitis.

Anatomy is critical for a subset of medical student, me for one because I'm going into rads (which is why I took cardiac imaging, ortho, neurosurg...) But to be honest, the higher yield info are in pathophys, pharm. anatomy is for radiologists, surgeons which are not all of medical students.

and for you guys even, I would never expect for podiatrists to be able to pinpoint anatomical structures on a body CT/MRI because those are not your focus, foot/ankle MRI yes but not outside of that.

 

[hematosis]

Why is it taught in such detail then?

Even though many MD Students will never touch a knife in their careers, anatomy is paramount.

Try telling a neurologist, a radiologist or a pathologist that anatomy is not important. These are non surgical specialties that rely on their fundamental knowledge of anatomy every single day.

More medical careers rely on Anatomy than I think you realize. I find it interesting that an MD student is being rather non-chalant about the necessity for a firm knowledge of anatomy. What specialties don't use anatomy a good bit? How do they not? Even if it's a simple case of Sinusitis.

kf,

i don't think the idea here is to argue that "anatomy is not important." rather, that there is a difference between Gross Anatomy and Clinical Anatomy or medical gross anatomy. Gross is more intended for someone studying to receive a phd. in anatomy. you must know every single curvature of a bone, genetic difference, weight, cusps, etc. some of these may not be clinically relevant. These may not be important in a disease state. Thus clinical anatomy is the anatomy as it relates to clinical practice.