VA Mental Health Provider Venting / Problem-solving / Peer Support Thread

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And then, when you do get around to doing the actual clinical work, 9 times out of 10 these days it's patients who react to you telling them that they DON'T have PTSD with extreme negative emotional displays. It's like being an oncologist (except in reverse). I feel like I'm delivering the news of terminal stage IV cancer to a patient every time I rule out PTSD and diagnose something else. Anything else.
It's like the entire universe has warped itself around the lie/myth that every veteran has PTSD (especially if they say they do) and it is some sort of unspoken law that you never are allowed to have an opinion that differs with that one. We are going to spend DECADES undoing the medium and long-term fallout of this crap.

You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefits and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.
 
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You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefit
S and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.

I came from a "snitches get stiches" kinda thing, but that is really a stolen valor issue that I would think these people would rally against?

The fact that veterans say this stuff should probably tell you everything you need to know about veteran attitudes toward their own government. But the majority of veterans still voted for Trump... somehow. Try to respect that? What an absolute embarrassment. Good luck with military recruiting the next generation.
 
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You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefit
S and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.
And there's a lot of overlap with those people who love to talk about people on welfare not deserving it

Square that circle
 
You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefit
S and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.

You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefit
S and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.
It's really...interesting. Check out this one ("Use it or lose it").



What people don't realize (or pretend they're too daft to realize) is the way these things develop over time. Once the word gets out (and it already has) that the 'Gold Rush is on,' then things just get wilder and wilder until it all falls apart.

The kinds of presentations that they're trying to get diagnosed as 'PTSD' are getting more and more tenuous (and hard for even rubber stampers to 'sign off' on) over time. We are at a point where VERY few people are even willing to 'touch' the whole 'differential diagnosis of trauma/PTSD' issue such that people who are asking to be 'evaluated for PTSD' or 'see someone about my PTSD' are just getting passed around and providers are avoiding directly addressing the issue like it's a literal phobia at this point. These days, the 'differential diagnosis of PTSD' or 'rule out PTSD' evals at VA are avoided like the plague just like child custody evals are avoided in the rest of psychological practice. 'Rule out PTSD' IS the 'child custody eval' of the VA mental health system right now. Nobody wants to touch it and will avoid it at all costs. And there is no leadership holding people accountable to do that very difficult, stressful, and potentially negative consequence-ridden aspect of their jobs. This is going to be an even greater clusterbark than we've been dealing with as time goes on.

When you have a rule--even an unwritten rule--such as 'you can never say 'NO' to a veteran who demands to be diagnosed with PTSD' like we do at VA and people can potentially earn the prize of never having to work again in their life...then the floodgates open up and anything goes. That's the phase things seem to be in right now.

Behavior is always a function of its consequences. For good or for ill.
 
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It's really...interesting. Check out this one ("Use it or lose it").



What people don't realize (or pretend they're too daft to realize) is the way these things develop over time. Once the word gets out (and it already has) that the 'Gold Rush is on,' then things just get wilder and wilder until it all falls apart.

The kinds of presentations that they're trying to get diagnosed as 'PTSD' are getting more and more tenuous (and hard for even rubber stampers to 'sign off' on) over time. We are at a point where VERY few people are even willing to 'touch' the whole 'differential diagnosis of trauma/PTSD' issue such that people who are asking to be 'evaluated for PTSD' or 'see someone about my PTSD' are just getting passed around and providers are avoiding directly addressing the issue like it's a literal phobia at this point.

When you have a rule--even an unwritten rule--such as 'you can never say 'NO' to a veteran who demands to be diagnosed with PTSD' like we do at VA and people can potentially earn the prize of never having to work again in their life...then the floodgates open up and anything goes. That's the phase things seem to be in right now.


Any man who actually starts a conversation with "My Dudes..." what do you expect? Is that person even military age? Good Lord what an embarrassment.
 
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You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefits and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.
Speaking of malingering, are any of you routinely using any malingering tests when doing evals/consults?
 
Speaking of malingering, are any of you routinely using any malingering tests when doing evals/consults?
I utilize the MMPI-2-RF, as needed, as part of a multi-modal psychological assessment process. The validity scales (using proper cutoffs)--especially F(p)-r--can be an indicator of an overreporting (of psychopathology) response set.

Obviously, F(p)-r is not a 'test of malingering,' per se, but can provide useful info to consider as part of a comprehensive evaluation process.

I've never seen standalone validity tests employed in VA clinical practice. Hell, even seeing someone use an MMPI or PAI is like going down to the local park and seeing a member of an endangered species come walking by...extremely rare occurrence.
 
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You should look at the recent thread on the r/Veterans Affairs subreddit where someone asks about what to do when a friend admitted to lying/exaggerating PTSD symptoms for benefits and they want to report. The amount of hate and "mind your own business" comments is quite telling.

Was that the one where someone said that losing a limb (from diabetes, per OP) is PTSD?
 
Speaking of malingering, are any of you routinely using any malingering tests when doing evals/consults?
All of the time. I see workers comp and legal cases. -2RF most often, though also other standalone and embedded measures, depending on what I’m assessing.
 
Speaking of malingering, are any of you routinely using any malingering tests when doing evals/consults?

We used to use them routinely back when I rotated through neuropsych at the VA. I don't use them much now. However, I am mostly treating mild to moderate mood disorders. I screen cognition, but refer out for full neuropsych if there are questions. My folks are older and already carry a diagnosis, so not much for me to address there.
 
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I just yelled an entire intake session. Does anyone have any recommendations for sound amplifying devices? Most of the ones I see have really short cords, and I'm usually a bit far from the patients.
 
Speaking of malingering, are any of you routinely using any malingering tests when doing evals/consults?
All ABPP-CN neuropsychs I have trained under have used either standalone, embedded, or a combination of the two. It is a widely accepted consensus, at least in the neuropsych world, that measures of performance or symptom exaggeration should be routinely included in clinical and medicolegal/forensic work. Although as a trainee I admittedly still have much to learn, I pause when I see a neuropsych report without PVTs or a psych report without SVTs, as there is no indication that the clinician even considered the possibility of exaggerating (particularly in certain types of evals). I tend to not use the word malingering specifically because I can't extrapolate the intent behind exaggeration, even if I personally think they are malingering, without data to support it.
 
I just yelled an entire intake session. Does anyone have any recommendations for sound amplifying devices? Most of the ones I see have really short cords, and I'm usually a bit far from the patients.
I've always used PocketTalkers and found them to be pretty helpful.
 
Although as a trainee I admittedly still have much to learn, I pause when I see a neuropsych report without PVTs or a psych report without SVTs, as there is no indication that the clinician even considered the possibility of exaggerating (particularly in certain types of evals).
I hope you're reading the content of the interpretations in addition to looking at the data table. It's a really bad idea to put PVT and SVT scores in the report for patients to read. I make a statement about whether measures of performance/symptom validity were within or below expectations, but I would never tell the patient or anyone else reading the report what their TOMM score was. I don't even like listing the names of PVTs in the report.
 
I hope you're reading the content of the interpretations in addition to looking at the data table. It's a really bad idea to put PVT and SVT scores in the report for patients to read. I make a statement about whether measures of performance/symptom validity were within or below expectations, but I would never tell the patient or anyone else reading the report what their TOMM score was. I don't even like listing the names of PVTs in the report.

Eh, this part isn't a real issue, and in some cases we have to put the names in. Personally, if these aren't in the report, I'll be requesting the raw data anyway. If I have no idea if someone is saying that things are "valid" because someone passed some garbage sensitivity measure like the Rey-15 and called it a day, or if they legitimately measured validity. The latter only really happens about 10-20% of the time.
 
I hope you're reading the content of the interpretations in addition to looking at the data table. It's a really bad idea to put PVT and SVT scores in the report for patients to read. I make a statement about whether measures of performance/symptom validity were within or below expectations, but I would never tell the patient or anyone else reading the report what their TOMM score was. I don't even like listing the names of PVTs in the report.
I have never listed the names of the PVTs or SVTs in the report and would never expect another clinician to. I'm talking about not trusting reports that don't even mention performance or symptom validity.
 
Years ago I tested another healthcare worker who was very familiar w neuropsych testing, and they got MAD at me that I used a bunch of measures they didn’t recognize and they literally told me I “Used the wrong tests!” bc they clearly/likely had been coached on some different measures. You can guess how they did on the standalone and embedded PVTs & SVTs….
 
Not that this makes VA any better, but I'll just note that I've had to take out my own trash at multiple university jobs as well. Small thing, but honestly pretty annoying that I'm responsible for cleaning an office when I could just work from home and clean the house I already need to clean.
 
Not that this makes VA any better, but I'll just note that I've had to take out my own trash at multiple university jobs as well. Small thing, but honestly pretty annoying that I'm responsible for cleaning an office when I could just work from home and clean the house I already need to clean.
Agreed. I mean, I don't really mind taking out my own trash...it's just that we are literally paying someone specifically to do that task but they don't do it. It's the eternal double-standard thing. The perfectionistic micromanaging oversight of every little aspect of the providers' many responsibilities along with the constant "WE ARE A HIGH RELIABILITY ORGANIZATION!!!" messaging is what makes it really annoying.
 
Had the first of 2 interviews for non-VA job. Interview went well, but I am having a really hard time justifying the immense loss in direct (pay) and indirect (PTO accrual, holidays, etc) benefits. I don’t have a hard salary offer right now, but it was discussed, and they were shocked to hear that at 2 years licensed I’m above their starting salary cap of ~$130k. HR rep said to expect being toward the lower end ($90k is their absolutely lowest starting salary). But it’s fully remote, a niche that I enjoy, and I choose my schedule outside of 3 core hours 3 evenings per week that are mandatory.

The golden handcuffs may get me yet again.
 
Had the first of 2 interviews for non-VA job. Interview went well, but I am having a really hard time justifying the immense loss in direct (pay) and indirect (PTO accrual, holidays, etc) benefits. I don’t have a hard salary offer right now, but it was discussed, and they were shocked to hear that at 2 years licensed I’m above their starting salary cap of ~$130k. HR rep said to expect being toward the lower end ($90k is their absolutely lowest starting salary). But it’s fully remote, a niche that I enjoy, and I choose my schedule outside of 3 core hours 3 evenings per week that are mandatory.

The golden handcuffs may get me yet again.
I mean, outside of niche specialty practice (neuropsych, forensic) and/or 'all-in' private practice entrepreneurial lifestyle commitment to solo clinical practice, my sense is that replicating the pay/benefits/stability of a VA clinical psych position for your rank-and-file clinical psychologist is gonna be challenging. It seems like the psychiatrist/APRN/PA (prescriber) + LCSW (counselor) setup is the norm.
 
I mean, outside of niche specialty practice (neuropsych, forensic) and/or 'all-in' private practice entrepreneurial lifestyle commitment to solo clinical practice, my sense is that replicating the pay/benefits/stability of a VA clinical psych position for your rank-and-file clinical psychologist is gonna be challenging. It seems like the psychiatrist/APRN/PA (prescriber) + LCSW (counselor) setup is the norm.

That is my experience as well. For the hate the VA gets, they are the highest paying w-2 jobs for a lot of people. I know that my old company was not paying much more than about $130k for clinical directors/managers, which is well below my current VA salary. I don't have a fancy made up title though (or the headaches that go along with that title).
 
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I agree that it's still pretty tough to beat the total compensation package from VA for an employed position as a psychologist. I don't really see that changing with the way CPT codes are going. I wonder if that'll lead more psychologists to do what many physicians seem to do--being members of physician groups that contract with the hospitals/clinics/etc.
 
I know we’re sitting pretty here at VA, even factoring in all the BS we deal with. Still a reverse sticker shock experience! I’m going to go through the process and give it more hard thinking. I also have my PP which can bring in a nice, albeit small steady stream of income. But I don’t want to *have* to grind in PP just to make up salary difference. If that’s the case I might as well just go full time PP (not out of the question for the future, just not anytime soon).

I was chatting with a SW colleague who is also trying to leave VA and they’ve had the same experience, except worse because the pay floor for SWs is VERY low. And they have 10+ years of experience on me.

EDIT: I‘ve also been exploring going back to inpatient but finding it hard to come across those opportunities. After wading through the 10,000 LifeStance postings of course.
 
I know we’re sitting pretty here at VA, even factoring in all the BS we deal with. Still a reverse sticker shock experience! I’m going to go through the process and give it more hard thinking. I also have my PP which can bring in a nice, albeit small steady stream of income. But I don’t want to *have* to grind in PP just to make up salary difference. If that’s the case I might as well just go full time PP (not out of the question for the future, just not anytime soon).

I was chatting with a SW colleague who is also trying to leave VA and they’ve had the same experience, except worse because the pay floor for SWs is VERY low. And they have 10+ years of experience on me.

EDIT: I‘ve also been exploring going back to inpatient but finding it hard to come across those opportunities. After wading through the 10,000 LifeStance postings of course.

Lifestance as you seem to be aware also artificially inflates its pay ranges online. When I talked to a recruiter there the pay was bad and it would take me seeing several more folks a week to get sort of close to VA pay. It's not a viable option unless working for the VA is going to literally kill you.
 
I know we’re sitting pretty here at VA, even factoring in all the BS we deal with. Still a reverse sticker shock experience! I’m going to go through the process and give it more hard thinking. I also have my PP which can bring in a nice, albeit small steady stream of income. But I don’t want to *have* to grind in PP just to make up salary difference. If that’s the case I might as well just go full time PP (not out of the question for the future, just not anytime soon).

I was chatting with a SW colleague who is also trying to leave VA and they’ve had the same experience, except worse because the pay floor for SWs is VERY low. And they have 10+ years of experience on me.

EDIT: I‘ve also been exploring going back to inpatient but finding it hard to come across those opportunities. After wading through the 10,000 LifeStance postings of course.

Honestly, that salary difference has been a huge concern of mine.
 
I know we’re sitting pretty here at VA, even factoring in all the BS we deal with. Still a reverse sticker shock experience! I’m going to go through the process and give it more hard thinking. I also have my PP which can bring in a nice, albeit small steady stream of income. But I don’t want to *have* to grind in PP just to make up salary difference. If that’s the case I might as well just go full time PP (not out of the question for the future, just not anytime soon).

I was chatting with a SW colleague who is also trying to leave VA and they’ve had the same experience, except worse because the pay floor for SWs is VERY low. And they have 10+ years of experience on me.

EDIT: I‘ve also been exploring going back to inpatient but finding it hard to come across those opportunities. After wading through the 10,000 LifeStance postings of course.


I believe that we are sitting pretty *for now*. While I am not the expert on this, I know that the SSRs making pay competitive for VA psychologists were tied to the PACT Act. This expires in 2027. I don't expect Trump to opt to continue it. I know this effects VA OIT for sure, but have seen less press about whether this goes for front line providers as well. I imagine this means a 10-25% pay cut for many if we go back to GS schedules.
 
I believe that we are sitting pretty *for now*. While I am not the expert on this, I know that the SSRs making pay competitive for VA psychologists were tied to the PACT Act. This expires in 2027. I don't expect Trump to opt to continue it. I know this effects VA OIT for sure, but have seen less press about whether this goes for front line providers as well. I imagine this means a 10-25% pay cut for many if we go back to GS schedules.
This. The psychological impact of an up to 25% sudden pay cut in the context of no raises, escalating patient-to-staff ratios, loss of support staff, and additional burden of switching to Cerner amid the ever-increasing administrative/paperwork burdens... cannot be over-estimated.
 
We have 2 special salary adjustments here, not sure what they are but PACT is one of them. I’ve known about the 2027 expiration but before this admin, I never worried too much about it not being renewed. In any case, that gives another year and change to get ducks in a row. We’ve seen a mass exodus here in the last year, as well as a sharp increase in folks opening their own PP, and I expect that to continue. Meanwhile leadership keeps reminding us to refer our friends for direct hire positions. As if I would encourage even my worst enemy to come to federal service *right now*.
 
Anyone else's PCMHI have RNs do "evaluations", recommend BHIP/OMH, then have providers (either social worker or psychologist) more or less rubber stamp the referral without so much as ever seeing the veteran? Welcome to even more not good referrals coming our way
 
Anyone else's PCMHI have RNs do "evaluations", recommend BHIP/OMH, then have providers (either social worker or psychologist) more or less rubber stamp the referral without so much as ever seeing the veteran? Welcome to even more not good referrals coming our way
It’s amazing how the VA can so consistently create BAD policy.
 
It’s amazing how the VA can so consistently create BAD policy.
We're experiencing this right now. Like 2-3 evaluation/orientation sessions by separate providers in a row only to be finally referred to a therapist to start therapy in...2-3 months from now...and, after that, follow up sessions every 2-3 months until...they drop out of 'therapy' and go back to step 1, lol. But all of their clinical reminders are up to date including their 'sexual orientation' which is assessed annually for obvious empirically-validated reasons since everyone knows that the highest risk timeframe for spontaneous reversion/change of sexual orientation is about 11-12 months since their last clinical reminder was evaluated...especially after age 50...duh!
 
We're experiencing this right now. Like 2-3 evaluation/orientation sessions by separate providers in a row only to be finally referred to a therapist to start therapy in...2-3 months from now...and, after that, follow up sessions every 2-3 months until...they drop out of 'therapy' and go back to step 1, lol. But all of their clinical reminders are up to date including their 'sexual orientation' which is assessed annually for obvious empirically-validated reasons since everyone knows that the highest risk timeframe for spontaneous reversion/change of sexual orientation is about 11-12 months since their last clinical reminder was evaluated...especially after age 50...duh!

They keep going like this, firing folks and pushing everything to community care is going to be easy.
 
It's an interesting contrast with how it feels working for the VA as a psychiatrist. The pay is significantly less which makes dealing with BS less tolerable, but psychiatrists seem to have much, much less BS than therapists (e.g. no "episode of care") and staffing is less dire so we can practice based on clinical judgment rather than be forced to fit in new patients even if that prevents appropriate follow-up for established patients.

Anyone else's PCMHI have RNs do "evaluations", recommend BHIP/OMH, then have providers (either social worker or psychologist) more or less rubber stamp the referral without so much as ever seeing the veteran? Welcome to even more not good referrals coming our way

Ya, although it can be workable depending on how well the RN is assessing the referrals and if the provider is actually reviewing rather than rubber-stamping. It's also another thing that is much easier on psychiatrists than psychologists, as while PCMHI therapy is qualitatively different than MHC therapy, psychiatric practice is basically the same in PCMHI and MHC so it doesn't matter much if a referral is misdirected.
 
They keep going like this, firing folks and pushing everything to community care is going to be easy.
I know. As I understand it, they just passed a law or something making it automatic that community care referrals for psychotherapy now last a full year w/o need for review or reauthorization. Meanwhile, they've outlawed 90 min intakes or VA providers scheduling any more than 6 sessions at a time, lol. Okiedokie, there's my 'Best Medical Interest' justification for referring everyone to the community, right there. Last one out turn off the lights on your way out the door...
 
I know. As I understand it, they just passed a law or something making it automatic that community care referrals for psychotherapy now last a full year w/o need for review or reauthorization. Meanwhile, they've outlawed 90 min intakes or VA providers scheduling any more than 6 sessions at a time, lol. Okiedokie, there's my 'Best Medical Interest' justification for referring everyone to the community, right there. Last one out turn off the lights on your way out the door...

We still have 90 min intakes and I am soooo thankful for that.
 
It’s amazing how the VA can so consistently create BAD policy.
This Is Who We Are Tim And Eric GIF by Chris Cimino
 
As soon as the clock strikes 15 past I tell the MSA to no show. And then when I call I tell them our policy is 2 no shows/cancellations in a row means therapy is d/c and they’ll have to go back to the back of the line, after the issues that led them to miss appointments are addressed. I live having a piece of paper to point to. I “tap the sign” often.
 
As soon as the clock strikes 15 past I tell the MSA to no show. And then when I call I tell them our policy is 2 no shows/cancellations in a row means therapy is d/c and they’ll have to go back to the back of the line, after the issues that led them to miss appointments are addressed. I live having a piece of paper to point to. I “tap the sign” often.
And your VA supports you in that?
 
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