VA now taking ABPP in lieu of APA accredited internship

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Psycycle said:
Has anyone else seen this? Thoughts on impact on the field?

Example:

https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/464535100/
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Honestly? Probably none. I'm not knocking the quality of student that attains an unaccredited internship (okay, maybe I am), but how many students that obtain an unaccredited internship are going have the skills/wherewithal to pursue ABPP? I know I'm making a sweeping generalization, but I can't be that far off-base.
 
ABCN or ABN is fine. The VA's APA policy of demanding APA internship, then complaining that there are not enough psychologists, followed by assigning people to MA level people is just strange. I would get a demand of APA program.
 
boomshakalaka said:
Honestly? Probably none. I'm not knocking the quality of student that attains an unaccredited internship (okay, maybe I am), but how many students that obtain an unaccredited internship are going have the skills/wherewithal to pursue ABPP? I know I'm making a sweeping generalization, but I can't be that far off-base.
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= me.
had a stupid, worthless appic internship.
Plan to be boarded in Clinical Health Psych in a few years.
You're free to question my skills and training all day long. Your generalization is as bad (imo) as women being bad at math or PsyD being a less than degree. Good luck with being that person.
FWIW when I went through the match, only my last match slot was an unaccredited spot and that's unfortunately who I ended up with. I was heartbroken and thought it'd be a serious hangup for my career. I'm pretty thankful it hasnt really been an issue for me.
 
FWIW I dont think this is a new thing, I think this has been the case for a while.
But again, who gets to that point in their career, then says "man now I really want to work for the VA". LOL.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
A lot of people....?

Every job has red tape, but some people realize that a work/life balance may be easier at a VA than say academic medicine.
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perhaps. I was thinking people who had the doomed appic internship like me working to get their ABPP just so they could then turn around and work at the VA? JMO, but I would guess unless you get a sweet deal, at that point it'd be a pretty big shift down to then enter the VA system as a GS11/12 in the first step. I am assuming that's the grade one would enter with, thus IMO likely not making it worth it. Maybe I'm wrong though.
 
bmedclinic said:
perhaps. I was thinking people who had the doomed appic internship like me working to get their ABPP just so they could then turn around and work at the VA? JMO, but I would guess unless you get a sweet deal, at that point it'd be a pretty big shift down to then enter the VA system as a GS11/12 in the first step. I am assuming that's the grade one would enter with, thus IMO likely not making it worth it. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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You are, they would enter in at GS-13.
 
WisNeuro said:
You are, they would enter in at GS-13.
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Ok, looked up the GS 13 grade. Might make it a wash, depending on location/ each person's setup. I guess it all depends on what you want then. At least for me, now being in PP would be pretty hard to suck it up and go work for the VA, esp. since I've experienced how much I hate red tape.
 
I doubt that the impact will be large. It would be interested to see statistics from the types of folks who actually, regularly get ABPP because I wonder how much this widens the net In general, I don't think most people who do unaccredited internships will go after ABPP just to offset that (obviously some will and do), especially since most people don't get ABPP anyway since its not a standard/an aspiring standard for practice in most disciplines. If the VA broadened that to other vanity boards then it might be a larger issue because that could generate some for-profit board certification processes.
 
Outside of neuropsychology, why do people get boarded?
 
bmedclinic said:
= me.
had a stupid, worthless appic internship.
Plan to be boarded in Clinical Health Psych in a few years.
You're free to question my skills and training all day long. Your generalization is as bad (imo) as women being bad at math or PsyD being a less than degree. Good luck with being that person.
FWIW when I went through the match, only my last match slot was an unaccredited spot and that's unfortunately who I ended up with. I was heartbroken and thought it'd be a serious hangup for my career. I'm pretty thankful it hasnt really been an issue for me.
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I certainly didn't intend to offend you personally or get you rankled in any particular way. However, equating my comment with generalizations such as "women being bad at math" or a "PsyD being a less than degree" is a little melodramatic. I don't think my comment was any different than what Wis said or what is conveyed ad nauseam on SDN. Despite your apparent success, the reality for most students who go the unaccredited internship route is much different. Matching with an unaccredited internship is a "serious hangup" for most and I would argue you are more likely the exception than the rule. For the sake of the field, I hope that all clinicians coming from unaccredited internships have the same drive and skillset as you. So, you go Glen Coco, keep hustlin!
 
erg923 said:
Outside of neuropsychology, why do people get boarded?
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Given the small number of ABPP forensic folks in the country, getting boarded seems to fast-track voir dire in many cases and minimizes the likelihood of even having your opinion questioned. Some of my previous ABPP supervisors also seemed to receive a large number of unsolicited referrals from across the country. It also allows you to charge a premium for evals. I think the biggest push for board-certification in forensic psych is that it ensures the clinician has a strong foundation in mental health case law, psychometrics, and forensic practice.
 
erg923 said:
Outside of neuropsychology, why do people get boarded?
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Most academic medical centers require it to be credentialed and receive hospital privileges. We are put on the clock and have to be boarded by a given date, thankfully it is normally within 3-5yrs. Most physicians do it (95%+) as the norm, so psych faculty are held to the same standard.

ABBP-RP has been making a big push to board all new ECPs...which I think is the way to go.
 
I wonder if there is regional variation too. No one at my VA is boarded, nor is anyone planning too.
 
Justanothergrad said:
No one at any of the several VAs in my area are board certified either I don't believe (Maybe one I don't know about, but I don't think there is). I suspect its regional.
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Are any of these larger VA hospitals? If so, I'm skeptical, if just from the fact that a lot of training programs want boarded people.
 
bmedclinic said:
Your generalization is as bad (imo) as women being bad at math or PsyD being a less than degree. Good luck with being that person.
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Choosing to complete a non-APA internship is just that - a choice that is fully informed and is made volitionally and voluntarily. That choice does not make a person a victim nor does it render you a member of an oppressed group. It is in no way comparable to experiencing a lifetime of pervasive cultural and societal messages to women that they are inherently less capable at math because of a fundamental aspect of their identity. I like your posts, bmedclinic, but that comparison really rubbed me the wrong way.
 
WisNeuro said:
Are any of these larger VA hospitals? If so, I'm skeptical, if just from the fact that a lot of training programs want boarded people.
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Not sure what would qualify as 'larger'; I'm at one of them and it is a 1C hospital. They're not flagships but they're reasonably sized and close to a major Army base and no one here is boarded. I'm not as familiar with the staff at the other two VA staff but, like I said,I don't believe they are either.
 
Justanothergrad said:
Not sure what would qualify as 'larger'; I'm at one of them and it is a 1C hospital. They're not flagships but they're reasonably sized and close to a major Army base and no one here is boarded. I'm not as familiar with the staff at the other two VA staff but, like I said,I don't believe they are either.
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That's just weird, especially if there is neuro training there. I caution my students away from training at places with no boarded npsychs.
 
WisNeuro said:
That's just weird, especially if there is neuro training there. I caution my students away from training at places with no boarded npsychs.
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My internship is not neuro-only, but it has rotations for neuro and has a handful of rehab/neuro staff. Two interns wanted to do neuro this year and matched at neuro/rehab post-docs, including one at a very prestigious tier1 research university. One of the staff I worked closely with does forensic consultation outside the VA and we have talked about why he doesn't get boarded and he just doesn't see a benefit to it, particularly at this stage in his career.
 
I can the purpose of boarding for neuro and forensic and maaaaaaaaaybe rehab, but its utility for other subfields is baffling to me. I kinda feel like making boarding a thing for everyone is an unnecessary additional hoop. I think obtaining an a degree from an APA accredited program, having an APA accredited internship, a postdoc, and being licensed is a strong enough base to display credibility and competency. Encouraging us to go through another hoop makes me wonder when will enough be enough.
 
I'm at a very large 1a VA hospital. Generally the neuropsychologists are boarded, but it's less common among the non-neuro psychologists.
 
I've met one or two folks boarded in health psych. The rest have all been neuro (most frequent by far, although there's a selection bias there based on my training), rehab, and forensic. I've seen a few in clinical psych as well, but only online; haven't met any in person. I don't think anyone in my current VA hospital system is boarded. Yet.
 
A few positives about being a VA psychologist (despite the many negatives), especially if you like doing therapy:

1) no haggling with managed care companies, begging them to authorize more sessions of care
2) no financial penalties due to no-shows (which are frequent in mental health)
3) no fussing with 'collections agencies' for patients with delinquent accounts
4) no on call responsibilities
5) despite the red tape and bureaucracy, the rank and file administrators/supervisors don't get into micromanaging the content of your sessions or your approach (though this may change in the future, who knows), they're too busy wrangling the 'numbers' and 'stats' at the macro level
6) regular hours, arrive at 8am, leave at 4:30pm, weekends and 10 Federal holidays per year off
7) generous sick/annual leave rates, decent benefits/retirement
8) guaranteed steady income (no need to fret about marketplace/demand fluctuations, no-shows, changes in insurance company reimbursement rates)
9) you can always do some part-time work on the side outside of the 40 hour work week
10) a good professional support network of doctoral-level colleagues on site
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I've met one or two folks boarded in health psych. The rest have all been neuro (most frequent by far, although there's a selection bias there based on my training), rehab, and forensic. I've seen a few in clinical psych as well, but only online; haven't met any in person. I don't think anyone in my current VA hospital system is boarded. Yet.
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At my first Practicum, the supervisor was boarded in child psychology. He was the first person I met who was boarded by ABPP. He works in an academic medical center and does predominantly research, although he used to do more clinical practice in the past. Pretty much everyone else I've met who is boarded is a clinical neuropsychologist.

Something random: so many physicians are boarded but they don't have their board-related credentials after their "MD" or "DO." But if we're boarded, we get "ABPP" after "PhD" or "PsyD." Random thought but I just realized that.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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erg923 said:
Outside of neuropsychology, why do people get boarded?
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The chair of our grad program was board certified as was the training director during intern/postdoc years, both in counseling psych. They both saw boarding as a way to demonstrate professional depth and commitment, as something to model for trainees/students, and as a vehicle for career advancement. They both encouraged pursuing board certification and the dept chair actually paid for all students who wanted to begin the "Early Entry Option."
 
calimich said:
The chair of our grad program was board certified as was the training director during intern/postdoc years, both in counseling psych. They both saw boarding as a way to demonstrate professional depth and commitment, as something to model for trainees/students, and as a vehicle for career advancement. They both encouraged pursuing board certification and the dept chair actually paid for all students who wanted to begin the "Early Entry Option."
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This is fantastic, seriously.

But I also think it's ultimately inconsistent with most market demands outside neuropsychology and some forensic niche areas. And I dont see any evidence we are marching towards this being a standard or expected thing within the psych practitioner community. And certainly not outside of it (business, industry, managed care, program supervision and development etc.).

I am a TD myself, but cannot in good conscious 'stress" the importance of such to interns who have the typical life/domestic/financial demands if I cannot provide a reason other than "proving yourself (again)." At some point, I think we need to stop this endless pursuit. I think we do enough of that with training demands, post doc demands, licensing demands, etc. I do my VA job and two other relatively lucrative ones on the side. This (ABPP) would not seem to provide any ROI for me (I have asked). And both of these are (civil) forensic in nature.

I suggest to my interns that if they are to do any further education or training after post doc and licensing, a MBA will generally provide far more ROI and career trajectory/options than "ABPP".
 
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erg923 said:
I wonder if there is regional variation too. No one at my VA is boarded, nor is anyone planning too.
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I think there is some regional variation. When I was a grad student in NY, every neuropsychologist was boarded or in the process of becoming boarded. Now, in Alabama for internship, and I can name only two that are boarded. In NY, my supervisors said that many hospitals require it, and that all your competition are boarded so you are forced to do it. In Alabama, it is less competitive, so the hospitals and universities aren't pushing clinicians to be boarded.
 
boomshakalaka said:
Given the small number of ABPP forensic folks in the country, getting boarded seems to fast-track voir dire in many cases and minimizes the likelihood of even having your opinion questioned. Some of my previous ABPP supervisors also seemed to receive a large number of unsolicited referrals from across the country. It also allows you to charge a premium for evals. I think the biggest push for board-certification in forensic psych is that it ensures the clinician has a strong foundation in mental health case law, psychometrics, and forensic practice.
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I strongly disagree with this idea. First, any expert's opinion SHOULD be questioned if opposing counsel is conscious. That's the game. If your ABFP supervisors have told you that being boarded means your opinions are unchallenged, they are wholly incompetent. Second, reputation is significantly more important in voir dire than boards. Go watch how quickly opposing counsel stipulates when an expert has done 100 trials. It's a method to avoid having the trier of fact hear the qualifications of someone who does not support your argument. It's not a "oh damn, they have a board cert, let them go". Third, fees are determined by what the market will allow. Maybe board cert is helpful, but reputation and history are gonna mean a lot more. And before you say something about that's how attorneys check your competence: it's not. There are professional databases which are used to get an expert's trial history which are substantially more useful than boards. Fourth, forensics encompasses an incredibly diverse areas of practice. Compare the knowledge base of the child custody guys with the knowledge base of the C&P guys. Completely different. Hiring guys vs neuro guys. Future dangerousness guys vs false confession guys. Fourth, ABFP did not do a good job in regards to how they allow causation determination.
 
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boomshakalaka said:
I certainly didn't intend to offend you personally or get you rankled in any particular way. However, equating my comment with generalizations such as "women being bad at math" or a "PsyD being a less than degree" is a little melodramatic. I don't think my comment was any different than what Wis said or what is conveyed ad nauseam on SDN. Despite your apparent success, the reality for most students who go the unaccredited internship route is much different. Matching with an unaccredited internship is a "serious hangup" for most and I would argue you are more likely the exception than the rule. For the sake of the field, I hope that all clinicians coming from unaccredited internships have the same drive and skillset as you. So, you go Glen Coco, keep hustlin!
Click to expand...
I went to an accredited internship, but I think you are overstating the problems that a lack of having one would mean other than at a VA. When we are advising students, we tell them to seek APA internships and believe strongly that is the best way to go and we also advise to stay away from diploma mill types of schools, but that does not translate to not accepting graduates of those schools or internships who attain licensure as some type of second-rate psychologists. At that point we tend to judge a practitioner on their individual merit.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Most academic medical centers require it to be credentialed and receive hospital privileges. We are put on the clock and have to be boarded by a given date.
Click to expand...

Is that true even for non neuro/rehab folks though?

I would argue just the opposite. Almost no AMCs require or expect boarding. There may be a culture of it among neuro, but I have literally seen only a small handful of boarded folks in other areas. This is across what is now the 5-6 AMCs I've had contact wth (including some of the "biggies"). I'm going through the licensing/credentialing process at my current one and boarding has never even been mentioned as something we should look into. Most seem only dimly aware that is even possible for non-neuro folks.

I'll do it if made to at some point. For now, my efforts are likely better spent writing grants/papers.
 
PSYDR said:
I strongly disagree with this idea. First, any expert's opinion SHOULD be questioned if opposing counsel is conscious. That's the game. If your ABFP supervisors have told you that being boarded means your opinions are unchallenged, they are wholly incompetent. Second, reputation is significantly more important in voir dire than boards. Go watch how quickly opposing counsel stipulates when an expert has done 100 trials. It's a method to avoid having the trier of fact hear the qualifications of someone who does not support your argument. It's not a "oh damn, they have a board cert, let them go". Third, fees are determined by what the market will allow. Maybe board cert is helpful, but reputation and history are gonna mean a lot more. And before you say something about that's how attorneys check your competence: it's not. There are professional databases which are used to get an expert's trial history which are substantially more useful than boards. Fourth, forensics encompasses an incredibly diverse areas of practice. Compare the knowledge base of the child custody guys with the knowledge base of the C&P guys. Completely different. Hiring guys vs neuro guys. Future dangerousness guys vs false confession guys. Fourth, ABFP did not do a good job in regards to how they allow causation determination.
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Haha. I must have missed the part where I said no one should EVER have their opinion questioned. I was speaking generally to some of the benefits I've seen associated with getting boarded in forensics not laying out "Boomshakalaka's all encompassing guidelines for forensic practice." I've actually shared sups with some active, solid folks on this board, so any allusion to being mentored by practitioners who are "wholly incompetent" is pretty laughable. I was actually just having a conversation with a few colleagues about some absurd/hired-gun opinions we've recently seen from some boarded folks, so don't go on and assume that I believe board certification is the end-all be-all. Some of those opinions also came from people who, in addition to being boarded, have stellar reputations in their respective area of practice, so reputation can actually be a crap-shoot as well. Any report worth its weight should be able to stand on its own. THOSE kinds of reports, the ones guided by competent practice and empiricism, and where all of your work is shown, often go unquestioned and for good reason. I do stand by my last statement, however. Despite any differences in specific knowledge of dangerousness, child-custody, or C&P, board-certification is going to ensure that all of those folks have a basis in all of the domains you listed. You don't get boarded in child-custody evaluations or violence risk assessments, you get boarded in forensic psychology. I think it is great that the field of forensic psych is pushing for that.

smalltownpsych said:
I went to an accredited internship, but I think you are overstating the problems that a lack of having one would mean other than at a VA. When we are advising students, we tell them to seek APA internships and believe strongly that is the best way to go and we also advise to stay away from diploma mill types of schools, but that does not translate to not accepting graduates of those schools or internships who attain licensure as some type of second-rate psychologists. At that point we tend to judge a practitioner on their individual merit.
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Your posts are great smalltown, but I still have to disagree. Maybe it's a regional, or area of practice thing, but I know that the California DSH system (one of the largest employers of psychologists in the state) also requires that applicants complete an APA-internship. I have some really great friends who completed non-APA internships that are great clinicians, but there is no doubt they faced additional hurdles. They are also often shutout from reaching the point where their individual merits can even be evaluated. Trust me, I have worked with APA-folks who were by any measure, "second-rate psychologists," and undeserving of the spot they filled. The harsh reality is they chose the right path and will have the freedom to be a clown at any site they so choose.
 
boomshakalaka said:
Haha. I must have missed the part where I said no one should EVER have their opinion questioned. I was speaking generally to some of the benefits I've seen associated with getting boarded in forensics not laying out "Boomshakalaka's all encompassing guidelines for forensic practice." I've actually shared sups with some active, solid folks on this board, so any allusion to being mentored by practitioners who are "wholly incompetent" is pretty laughable. I was actually just having a conversation with a few colleagues about some absurd/hired-gun opinions we've recently seen from some boarded folks, so don't go on and assume that I believe board certification is the end-all be-all. Some of those opinions also came from people who, in addition to being boarded, have stellar reputations in their respective area of practice, so reputation can actually be a crap-shoot as well. Any report worth its weight should be able to stand on its own. THOSE kinds of reports, the ones guided by competent practice and empiricism, and where all of your work is shown, often go unquestioned and for good reason. I do stand by my last statement, however. Despite any differences in specific knowledge of dangerousness, child-custody, or C&P, board-certification is going to ensure that all of those folks have a basis in all of the domains you listed. You don't get boarded in child-custody evaluations or violence risk assessments, you get boarded in forensic psychology. I think it is great that the field of forensic psych is pushing for that.



Your posts are great smalltown, but I still have to disagree. Maybe it's a regional, or area of practice thing, but I know that the California DSH system (one of the largest employers of psychologists in the state) also requires that applicants complete an APA-internship. I have some really great friends who completed non-APA internships that are great clinicians, but there is no doubt they faced additional hurdles. They are also often shutout from reaching the point where their individual merits can even be evaluated. Trust me, I have worked with APA-folks who were by any measure, "second-rate psychologists," and undeserving of the spot they filled. The harsh reality is they chose the right path and will have the freedom to be a clown at any site they so choose.
Click to expand...


So when you said "...getting boarded seems to fast-track voir dire in many cases and minimizes the likelihood of even having your opinion questioned." you didn't mean that being boarded had an effect on how cross works?

Or in your last statement "THOSE kinds of reports, the ones guided by competent practice and empiricism, and where all of your work is shown, often go unquestioned and for good reason.".


If someone is telling you that expert testimony is not subject to cross for any reason, they are incompetent. Case law has consistently upheld that attorneys' failure to cross examine experts is evidence of incompetent counsel. But maybe your mentors know more about the 6th than Scotus.
 
PSYDR said:
So when you said "...getting boarded seems to fast-track voir dire in many cases and minimizes the likelihood of even having your opinion questioned." you didn't mean that being boarded had an effect on how cross works?

NOPE, didn't meant that at all.

Or in your last statement "THOSE kinds of reports, the ones guided by competent practice and empiricism, and where all of your work is shown, often go unquestioned and for good reason.".

See below.


If someone is telling you that expert testimony is not subject to cross for any reason, they are incompetent. Case law has consistently upheld that attorneys' failure to cross examine experts is evidence of incompetent counsel. But maybe your mentors know more about the 6th than Scotus.
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Yes, a good report will go often unquestioned because it is rooted in good practice. Now, is that report open to scrutiny via the adversarial nature of the legal arena? Of course. I never mentioned anything about cross or that being ABPP somehow allows one to bypass cross examination altogether. You decided to anoint yourself as the SDN Tom Grisso and begin scrutinizing my post. I was generally speaking to some general benefits of board certification, you began to get all sanctimonious. ABPP minimizes the likelihood of having your opinion questioned the same way brushing my teeth minimizes cavities, or driving the speed limit minimizes the likelihood of an accident. Since you fail to allow for any reasonable degree of interpretation I'll spell it out for you.

DEAR PSYDR, IF YOU, ABPP OR NOT, DO GOOD WORK, WORK WHICH IS ROOTED IN SOUND FORENSIC PRACTICE (AS SEEN WITH MANY BOARDED FOLKS), YOU MINIMIZE THE LIKELIHOOD OF GETTING CALLED INTO COURT. HOWEVER, YOU CAN AND WILL PROBABLY STILL BE CALLED INTO COURT GIVEN THE ADVERSARIAL NATURE OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

I can do this all day, Tom.
 
boomshakalaka said:
Yes, a good report will go often unquestioned because it is rooted in good practice. Now, is that report open to scrutiny via the adversarial nature of the legal arena? Of course. I never mentioned anything about cross or that being ABPP somehow allows one to bypass cross examination altogether. You decided to anoint yourself as the SDN Tom Grisso and begin scrutinizing my post. I was generally speaking to some general benefits of board certification, you began to get all sanctimonious. ABPP minimizes the likelihood of having your opinion questioned the same way brushing my teeth minimizes cavities, or driving the speed limit minimizes the likelihood of an accident. Since you fail to allow for any reasonable degree of interpretation I'll spell it out for you.

DEAR PSYDR, IF YOU, ABPP OR NOT, DO GOOD WORK, WORK WHICH IS ROOTED IN SOUND FORENSIC PRACTICE (AS SEEN WITH MANY BOARDED FOLKS), YOU MINIMIZE THE LIKELIHOOD OF GETTING CALLED INTO COURT. HOWEVER, YOU CAN AND WILL PROBABLY STILL BE CALLED INTO COURT GIVEN THE ADVERSARIAL NATURE OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM.

I can do this all day, Tom.
Click to expand...

I guess you haven't been taught that cross, which is comprised of questions, is how opinions are subjected to scrutiny in the legal field.
 
PSYDR said:
I guess you haven't been taught that cross, which is comprised of questions, is how opinions are subjected to scrutiny in the legal field.
Click to expand...

So every report you've ever done has required your testimony in court?

You're a clown.
 
boomshakalaka said:
So every report you've ever done has required your testimony in court?

You're a clown.
Click to expand...

Uhhhhh, expert reports are considered testimony under fre 702. That's why reports have disclosures that are outlined under 26(a).

They taught me that in clown school, along with how using ad hominems is a no no in debate.
 
PSYDR said:
Uhhhhh, expert reports are considered testimony under fre 702. That's why reports have disclosures that are outlined under 26(a).

They taught me that in clown school, along with how using ad hominems is a no no in debate.
Click to expand...

PSYDR said:
Uhhhhh, expert reports are considered testimony under fre 702. That's why reports have disclosures that are outlined under 26(a).

They taught me that in clown school, along with how using ad hominems is a no no in debate.
Click to expand...

Nice way out of that one. Let me rephrase, every report you've submitted has resulted in you being called to trial?
 
Boom, your comment about voir dire implied you were talking about forensic circumstances. PSYDR responded to your comment in relation to forensic circumstances. It seems that this argument has become willfully obtuse at this point, not too mention far afield of the original questions asked.
 
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