VA Salary

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Pomacentridae

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Hi,

I've perused through various threads on this topic and it seems like VA salaries can vary across the board depending on region. My question is regarding whether a salary of $206k in an east coast city (before EDRP) for a a psychiatrist straight out of residency is typical. Is this a low ball offer? Is there any way to negotiate salaries with the VA?

Thanks in advance!
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TexasPhysician said:
Yes you can negotiate. Yes it is low, but it is not terribly low for VA that often pays less than other places.
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How do you go about negotiating when they say the salaries are fixed and determined by the government based on what your seniority is (how many years out from residency)?
 
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From my experience with the VA, it depends on the need of the VA in that area. I know in less ideal area where they cannot keep or get psychiatrists they will offer retention bonuses. I know one area had a 50K retention for 3 years. They offered me straight out of school 260K. It was inpatient. I believe outpatient in the area was 240K. Also, I know several folks that do telepsych and work in areas in need from another state. They both make over 300K with bonus and have pretty good deals in terms of how many they have to see and other has a 4 day week. Unless they cut all this out since last year. There are better deals in VA system.
 
Do you need a state license to practice telehealth at the VA (if you don't live in that state) since the VA is on federal land?
 
clozareal said:
Do you need a state license to practice telehealth at the VA (if you don't live in that state) since the VA is on federal land?
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You have to be licensed in a state. Not that particular state, which is why doing telepsych with VA is better in my opinion.
 
206k is such a lowball that it's insulting. Even big name academia on the east coast has to offer 200k minimum, much less the VA. If you live in the area you'll know of the myriad of scandals the east coast VAs have gone through in the recent years. They are desperate for psychiatrists so I would not take anything less than 250k.
 
Pomacentridae said:
How do you go about negotiating when they say the salaries are fixed and determined by the government based on what your seniority is (how many years out from residency)?
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This is fairly typical. I would say the room for negotiation is minimal. I would not stress this job. Your work load is also likely low and you can feel free to take all the days off for which you are entitled, including sick days, floating holidays and vacation days that don't carry over.. I know someone who works for the feds who is taking off every other week in Nov. Do your bare minimum and you'll never get fired.

Start a private practice on the side to supplement your income.
 
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the5thelement said:
A friend of mine is in rural virginia (1 hour from DC) making $275k outpatient VA seeing 5-6 patients a day !
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Amazing. Seems like either the inpatient or outpatient VA life (with average pay) could be a good way to spend a couple years for me fresh out of residency as I build up an outpatient panel for my goal of private/group practice.
Not sure if VA's also have strict non-competes like academic jobs that require you to see your private panel on site and take 30-40% off the top
 
whackamole21 said:
Amazing. Seems like either the inpatient or outpatient VA life (with average pay) could be a good way to spend a couple years for me fresh out of residency as I build up an outpatient panel for my goal of private/group practice.
Not sure if VA's also have strict non-competes like academic jobs that require you to see your private panel on site and take 30-40% off the top
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No you can start pp without any interference with VA, just can't technically see pts during va time
 
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liquidshadow22 said:
No you can start pp without any interference with VA, just can't technically see pts during va time
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That is correct, the one big downside is that it is forbidden for you to do any PP work at all on VA time at all (chart reviews, making calls, etc.). I expect some people do it but it is a violation of your employment contract and is considered unethical and potentially illegal (not a great accusation to deal with as an early career psychiatrist). That means while you can start your PP it will all have to be squeezed outside of VA time.
 
Bartelby said:
That is correct, the one big downside is that it is forbidden for you to do any PP work at all on VA time at all (chart reviews, making calls, etc.). I expect some people do it but it is a violation of your employment contract and is considered unethical and potentially illegal (not a great accusation to deal with as an early career psychiatrist). That means while you can start your PP it will all have to be squeezed outside of VA time.
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Can you expand in the legalities of this? Is it like taxpayer fraud? Could a doctor be subject to civil or criminal penalties?
 
the5thelement said:
A friend of mine is in rural virginia (1 hour from DC) making $275k outpatient VA seeing 5-6 patients a day !
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How does your friend not get bored? Does the VA provide free food and can you surf the internet?
 
liquidshadow22 said:
Can you expand in the legalities of this? Is it like taxpayer fraud? Could a doctor be subject to civil or criminal penalties?
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Here is a good place to start with citations to relevant code: Misuse of Position and Government Resources

As for what the penalty may be beyond an accusation of unethical conduct on the job I am not sure, I would be interested in knowing if anyone is familiar with that.
 
Bartelby said:
Here is a good place to start with citations to relevant code: Misuse of Position and Government Resources

As for what the penalty may be beyond an accusation of unethical conduct on the job I am not sure, I would be interested in knowing if anyone is familiar with that.
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Text of relevant reg:

"(a) Except as provided in §2635.107 [this section provides immunity for actions taken by employees in good faith in accordance with advice solicited from agency ethics officers unless those actions violate a criminal statute], a violation of this part or of supplemental agency regulations may be cause for appropriate corrective or disciplinary action to be taken under applicable Governmentwide regulations or agency procedures. Such action may be in addition to any action or penalty prescribed by law. "

What's that corrective action, you say?

"(e) Corrective action includes any action necessary to remedy a past violation or prevent a continuing violation of this part, including but not limited to restitution, change of assignment, disqualification, divestiture, termination of an activity, waiver, the creation of a qualified diversified or blind trust, or counseling. "

So on average it takes about 16 months to fire a federal employee if they exercise their full procedural rights. It's hard and so supervisors rarely bother to do it unless incompetence is truly egregious. Still, violating this could form the basis of a move to terminate, and it would be hard to argue in front of the Merit Systems Protection Board that your firing was unwarranted or discriminatory if they are able to demonstrate a clear violation of a reg like this.

Note they could also just yank any retirement benefits you had been accruing if they felt it was warranted. So it's no bueno. Also maybe they don't fire you but they transfer you to the most remote or crappy facility in the relevant organizational unit of the VA?-. What's that, you don't want to move? Guess you have to resign then.
 
clausewitz2 said:
Note they could also just yank any retirement benefits you had been accruing if they felt it was warranted. So it's no bueno. Also maybe they don't fire you but they transfer you to the most remote or crappy facility in the relevant organizational unit of the VA?-. What's that, you don't want to move? Guess you have to resign then.
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yeah and guess what, if you do decide to keep working at the place nobody wanted to go to...it's filled with all the other employees they can't get rid of either. So have fun with that.

But yeah the big reason for working at the VA is the pension system and the fact that it's basically impossible to get fired (thus all the VA nurse jokes...which definitely have some basis in reality). When I rotated at the VA, if I was leaving the parking lot at 4:30, I was one of the last cars there :laugh:

I guess the PP aspect of it is also a bonus which I hadn't thought of before. The VA doesn't give a **** about noncompetes because you're never going to be competing for their patients (unless they want you to through one of their grant programs or something).
 
calvnandhobbs68 said:
yeah and guess what, if you do decide to keep working at the place nobody wanted to go to...it's filled with all the other employees they can't get rid of either. So have fun with that.

But yeah the big reason for working at the VA is the pension system and the fact that it's basically impossible to get fired (thus all the VA nurse jokes...which definitely have some basis in reality). When I rotated at the VA, if I was leaving the parking lot at 4:30, I was one of the last cars there :laugh:

I guess the PP aspect of it is also a bonus which I hadn't thought of before. The VA doesn't give a **** about noncompetes because you're never going to be competing for their patients (unless they want you to through one of their grant programs or something).
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I have no doubt VA work is easy street in some places, but the VA local to me went through a period where they lost all but one of their inpatient psychiatrists, so suddenly all the outpatient people had to take 24h call q3 days for several months. Morale was not fantastic, as you can imagine.
 
clausewitz2 said:
Text of relevant reg:

"(e) Corrective action includes any action necessary to remedy a past violation or prevent a continuing violation of this part, including but not limited to restitution, change of assignment, disqualification, divestiture, termination of an activity, waiver, the creation of a qualified diversified or blind trust, or counseling. "
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This is incredibly vague, which means that the operating VA has 100% discretion. If you use a private computer/account to operate your practice and don't mix things, it's not easy for them to even detect activity let alone regulate it. Of course I wouldn't run around telling people how much money you are making in PP. People who work for the govt usually get screwed not because they are "unethical" but because they made others unhappy.

Indeed, the number of people who got screwed working for the government by being *especially* ethical is not few. Which is why there are often lawsuits for terminations of various kinds.
 
sluox said:
This is incredibly vague, which means that the operating VA has 100% discretion. If you use a private computer/account to operate your practice and don't mix things, it's not easy for them to even detect activity let alone regulate it. Of course I wouldn't run around telling people how much money you are making in PP. People who work for the govt usually get screwed not because they are "unethical" but because they made others unhappy.

Indeed, the number of people who got screwed working for the government by being *especially* ethical is not few. Which is why there are often lawsuits for terminations of various kinds.
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I worked for a while at a law firm specializing in representing federal employees in disciplinary actions. All of them had committed the cardinal sin of pissing off their supervisor on a regular basis. Whether this was compounded by involved questionable decision-making (showing up drunk to work, watching porn on a government computer in an office clearly visible from the window), chronic interpersonal difficulties (incredibly hostile responses to routine emails), an excess of conscientiousness (whistle-blowing), or just being of a different race/gender/age category, they did all have in common that they made someone above them mad enough to dedicate a significant chunk of their waking hours to hounding them through the system.

I wouldn't expect the VA to be super aggressive in going after this, but yes, for god's sake, at a minimum don't use any piece of equipment that could be construed as belong to the federal government, and ideally avoid the wi-fi. you still have the problem of depriving the United States of your "official time", but much harder to be caught out doing it.
 
JerryMouse said:
1% of salary (average of highest 3) x years of service. The pension amount isn't that amazing, given that you have to contribute 5% of after tax income to the pension every year. However, the pension amount is inflation adjusted after age 62.
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Do you know what happens to pension contributions if you leave the VA prior to the 5 yr vesting period?
 
liquidshadow22 said:
Do you know what happens to pension contributions if you leave the VA prior to the 5 yr vesting period?
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You can get your FERS components transferred to another retirement account. Just have to fill out some paperwork.
 
Also, if you leave before five years is up, you can just get another federal job to hit your 5 year mark. It doesn't have to be consecutive.
 
liquidshadow22 said:
Do you know what happens to pension contributions if you leave the VA prior to the 5 yr vesting period?
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you can either transfer the whole amount to another 401k or withdraw the amount you put in as a (tax-free) lump sum. If you go with option 2, any money from growth will be taxed but you can choose to put the taxable portion in your TSP to avoid the tax penalty.
 
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