Value of DPT Degree

[TopShelf85]

Hi All,

I wanted to ask about what is most likely the most relevant issue worth considering prior to enrolling at any DPT program. I am currently at the very beginning of observation and pre-reqs (only taking 1) because I do not want to put the cart before the horse. Looking at the impact of Obamacare, declining reimbursements from insurance, as well as the insolvency of Medicare, how are PT's in the long-term/future going to be compensated well for their time?

Without a scholarship the range of tuition is roughly $130-150k not including living expenses. The average salary is around $70-75k but seeing how earnings across the board are at 1999 pre-depression levels, earnings have basically flatlined and are in decline in many industries and instances. The pressures from insurance on reimbursement and uncertainty from Obamacare is giving me major skepticism about pursuing this profession.

What do you all think? Are you concerned as well?

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[bpdpt]

There might be a couple of schools (if any) with tuition at 130-150k and you should have no desire to go to any of them. Most schools are going to be around 100k or much lower

 

[nicolej5]

Hi All,



Without a scholarship the range of tuition is roughly $130-150k not including living expenses.

lol. what schools are you looking at? I will be in the 120k range when it's all said and done and that's with living expenses. Look, every profession has it's ups and downs. Overhead, insurance, blah blah blah. But would you rather be in debt for a few years, make a comfortable wage and do something you love or be in a profession that you hate just because you didn't have to take any debt? it's all worth it to me.

 

[NewTestament]

The pressures from insurance on reimbursement and uncertainty from Obamacare is giving me major skepticism about pursuing this profession.

What do you all think? Are you concerned as well?

Many clinicians are rejecting Medicare patients, and for good reason. They can make more money accepting private insurance and out-out-pocket payments only. That seems to be the general trend. I wouldn't worry about "Obamacare" (which is referred to as ACA in the health-care field).

Kevin

 

[DPTinUTAH]

Based on your initial post, you seem to have a very rational head on your shoulders. Take it for what its worth, but in your gut, you know it isnt worth it and the value in PT is gone by it moving to an unnecessary DPT that does not widen our scope or increase our pay.

 

[jchen707]

most places you can prob pay around 100K for tuition or less if you're not factoring in living expenses. Once you factor that in, that can vary among individuals quite significantly depending on how you're spending the rest of your money. Also, like newtestament said, you odn't need to see medicare patients. You acutaly make more as a clinician taking private pay/cash from your patients (although i would imagine your patient population would have to be at a certain SES in order to pay all out of pocket)

 

[TopShelf85]

Why in the world would I or anyone think about taking out tens of thousands of dollars of student loans? The value of education is only so much that it gives you the ability to make a modest living wage. AT the end of 3 years of DPT school and factoring in living expenses, you will easily be out at least 100k. There is job security and from all I've read earnings are FLAT and there is growing pressure on insurance, Medicare, and other payers as the depression we're trapped in rages on and our purchasing power declines from all of the currency devaluation.

How is earning a 70k salary for several years post graduation going to be able to off-set the student loans?

 

[nicolej5]

Why in the world would I or anyone think about taking out tens of thousands of dollars of student loans? The value of education is only so much that it gives you the ability to make a modest living wage. AT the end of 3 years of DPT school and factoring in living expenses, you will easily be out at least 100k. There is job security and from all I've read earnings are FLAT and there is growing pressure on insurance, Medicare, and other payers as the depression we're trapped in rages on and our purchasing power declines from all of the currency devaluation.

How is earning a 70k salary for several years post graduation going to be able to off-set the student loans?

there are a plethora of ways that you can earn a good amount of extra cash to offset a chunk of the loans. No pt on the face of the planet does pt for the money. I actually talked to a pt I observed with about this and he said as long as you are a competent individual who can manage his/her money and live within their means then yes you will survive. Be smart about which school you attend (if you have a choice), factor in other things (living expenses...) and don't buy a new closet full of gucci and prada. It can be done and it has been done.

 

[jblil]

The value of education is only so much that it gives you the ability to make a modest living wage.

Sorry, but this is the most stupid sentence I have read in a long time.

The value of education is that it expands your horizons, it teaches you humility (because you realize you don't really know anything, even after getting your degree), and most importantly it teaches how to think independently and critically. Those skills will serve you anywhere in life, and not just in the field you went to school for.

 

[TopShelf85]

Sorry, but this is the most stupid sentence I have read in a long time.

The value of education is that it expands your horizons, it teaches you humility (because you realize you don't really know anything, even after getting your degree), and most importantly it teaches how to think independently and critically. Those skills will serve you anywhere in life, and not just in the field you went to school for.

Like almost everything, the value of education boils down to dollars and cents PERIOD! The higher education system has become a staple in America as the primary means for our youth to cling to the hope of having a bright future. The bottomline is there needs to be you are enrolling in a program which will teach you practical and monetizable skills such as engineering, tech skills, science, and mathematics you are going to have a very tough time justifying the value of the experience. You're telling me that all of these people who graduate with between tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans is justified because hey they learned "humility" and "how to think independently and critically". What a joker you are

In the past year I established a start-up company with 2-3 other very bright individuals. If you want life lessons and as you phrase it "learn how to think independently and creatively" sitting in a classroom is a waste of time. I learned how to incorporate and launch a new business, identify a niche market with growth potential, created an opportunity by performing ample market research and due diligence, as well as not overlooking barriers to entry. We created something out of nothing where there was market demand and fun for people to use. The lessons entrepreneurship taught us supersede any education you can learn inside a classroom. I learned how to assemble a great team and build something from nothing. So I ask you again smart guy how is sitting in a classroom listening to a lecture going to give me greater value than this experience?

The ability to venture out on you own and take risk is how you learn in the real world. This specifically can be applied to the PT universe as well. By opening a private practice that's cash-based in specialty areas you will be more successful than someone who depends on the Government and Insurance for reimbursement. I am not undermining the value of an education so long as it teaches a specific skill/trade that you can then practice in the real world and utilize that knowledge in a productive way.

There's an old saying my former Wall Street mentor taught me - If you don't deal with reality, reality will deal with you. By thinking the value of education regardless of its price is sufficient, reality will hit like a ton of bricks later on

 

[jblil]

TopShelf - I am not your typical DPT student (look at my profile). I lived the dot-com bubble in 1999-2000, and was part of three start-ups back then. Come back in about 30 years and talk to me, you'd have matured some more by then.

 

[bpdpt]

Topshelf, clearly money is all that matters to you so don't bother applying to PT school and dont attack jblil because of your misguided views about getting an education. How can someone with a "wall street mentor" think 40/750 students at Belmont is .05% like you said in the sticky

 

[dcscott325]

Topshelf--

While I do agree with you that the value of an education is much higher when teaching a technical skill vs a general skill (physical therapy vs interpretive dance for example), I do not feel that the entire institution of education should be frowned upon.

I myself have experienced a very low ROI from my BS in Public Admin... $12,000 in debt and its a degree that I can't use anywhere. But some people seek out education simply for the joy of learning and if that's how they choose to spend their time and money then so be it. Who are we to judge?

Furthermore, the rising costs of PT school are inevitable and unavoidable. Most of us are not choosing this profession strictly for the paycheck, because your right, there are much more affordable ways to make an even bigger buck. Most of us, myself included, choose PT because its a field that interests us and allows us to help heal people. And, if you are so against people going into PT because of the associated costs, then why are you even on this forum to begin with? I thought the whole point of these message boards was to be supportive of our future colleagues and offer HELPFUL and constructive advice and opinions.

If you truly feel that strongly that the cost of PT tuition is a waste, then I sure hope you never need physical therapy in your old age, because if we all followed your advice, there wouldn't be any PTs left (at least not good ones anyway).

 

[Happydays85]

Hi all,

I am going to defend TopShelf here because it doesn't sound like he's anti PT at all... I think he's trying to say he's skeptical of the rapid inflation in the tuition prices across higher education in general and I agree with him! College tuition has grown beyond what I ever expected to have to pay and unfortunately this trend is continuing. Higher education is a business I agree but everyone has their own interpretation of value. I do understand where you're coming from though in the business sense and that's important.

I agree with you that entrepreneurship is a great thing but not everyone is cut out for it. I wish you all the best seems like you're a bright guy. I wonder how big your passion is for PT.

How did you decide to consider PT?

 

[nicolej5]

topshelf, no one will take you seriously when you call them "jokers" and just sound immature in general. If you don't want to do pt, then stop being bickering over the internet and move on. If you want to do pt, then no, it's not free. Unfortunately, we don't set tuition rates so the price of getting into the profession is what it is. It's an investment for your future, just like getting a loan for a business is.The job security for an entrepreneur in this economy makes me shiver, so, good luck.

 

[NewTestament]

It really comes down to how you perceive the value of a DPT degree. If you really want it, you'll obtain it, despite the onerous debt you will occur. If it's not worth the tuition, then pursue another track. But please don't say it's not worth the expense to anybody. That's arrogant.

Kevin

 

[TopShelf85]

40/750 is .053333% pretty basic arithmetic my friend. I've spoken to the people from Belmont I know there was roughly 750 people who applied last year and about 40 or so were admitted.

Gotta love those odds

 

[TopShelf85]

I understand tuition isn't free nor should it be... On a microeconomic level the principle of opportunity cost should come FIRST to mind before pursuing any endeavor that costs money. Does the sacrifice of your time/money warrant you a greater ROI over the long haul? That's what matters.

Nicole, are you already enrolled at the moment in a DPT program?

As an entrepreneur I can tell you its no easy task to open a new business. I will say it was the best learning experience I ever had in my entire life. The way to be the most successful as a PT is by opening your own private practice with a specialization. Someone with a business/entrepreneurial background and training will have a better shot at making this a reality.

Anyone care to explain to me why there is no entrepreneurial training or business courses integrated into the DPT curriculum? Logic seems backwards to me...

topshelf, no one will take you seriously when you call them "jokers" and just sound immature in general. If you don't want to do pt, then stop being bickering over the internet and move on. If you want to do pt, then no, it's not free. Unfortunately, we don't set tuition rates so the price of getting into the profession is what it is. It's an investment for your future, just like getting a loan for a business is.The job security for an entrepreneur in this economy makes me shiver, so, good luck.

 

[ptisfun2]

Anyone care to explain to me why there is no entrepreneurial training or business courses integrated into the DPT curriculum? Logic seems backwards to me...

I can speak about the school that I am a faculty member at, but there is a business course for our entry level students. If you are looking to go to PT schools, you should look at the curriculum for the ones you are interested in. I am guessing, but I imagine it is covered in all schools. I mean I had one as a student, and I graduated a long time ago!

 

[nicolej5]

I understand tuition isn't free nor should it be... On a microeconomic level the principle of opportunity cost should come FIRST to mind before pursuing any endeavor that costs money. Does the sacrifice of your time/money warrant you a greater ROI over the long haul? That's what matters.

Nicole, are you already enrolled at the moment in a DPT program?

As an entrepreneur I can tell you its no easy task to open a new business. I will say it was the best learning experience I ever had in my entire life. The way to be the most successful as a PT is by opening your own private practice with a specialization. Someone with a business/entrepreneurial background and training will have a better shot at making this a reality.

Anyone care to explain to me why there is no entrepreneurial training or business courses integrated into the DPT curriculum? Logic seems backwards to me...

It seems that your only gauge of success is money. Yea it pays the bills but for me personally, at the end of the day it entails so much more than that. Also, why do you think you have to own your own private, specialty clinic to make decent money in pt? You don't, and if you did more research you'd find that out. My program has classes built into the curriculum that will teach us all about the business side if that is the path we so choose in the future. The learning experience that you speak of concerning entrepreneurship can be had at any time of life/career. Just because I didn't have a background in it before entering pt school doesn't mean that I can't gain that after graduation.

 

[bpdpt]

Ugh I hate to hijack the thread to clear up the arrogant stupidity... If they accepted .05% of 750 students that would be roughly the torso of one applicant. Its 5% brainiac

 

[NewTestament]

Like almost everything, the value of education boils down to dollars and cents PERIOD! The higher education system has become a staple in America as the primary means for our youth to cling to the hope of having a bright future. The bottomline is there needs to be you are enrolling in a program which will teach you practical and monetizable skills

I'm a pragmatic and practical person myself, so I understand your point of view. However, even I wouldn't say that value of a education is more than how much money the graduate can earn with a particular degree. At the end of the day, you have to pay to live, and you have to pay back loans. That's why I discourage anyone from paying for a history or English degree.

However, I don't know any physical therapist or health care professional who is struggling to survive. The debt/income ratio for PTs is higher than it should be, but all that means is that PTs will spend more of their early professional years paying back loans. MD's and DDS's earn much more than PTs, but what if you don't want to be a dentist or proscribe medicine? Only the most avaricious person would take a job simply because it paid a lot of money. Often people who take jobs only for the lucrative salary end up miserable.

The profession you choose should exploit and utilize the schools you have been endowed with to the maximum. You should choose a profession that inspires and motivates you to be the best you can be.

Kevin

 

[Happydays85]

You got that right unfortunately... sucks but life is very expensive now.

I am very concerned my grades aren't good enough to get in... it's so HARD to get in! The admissions people are incentivized to get as many people to appy as possible so they sound optimistic rightfully so. However in reality when you look at the numbers there's 35-40 spots at every program and I hear the number of applicants due to the PTCAS making it easier to apply has made it even easier. This has caused the applicant numbers to go way up to roughly 500, 600, etc this is A TON of competition.

I wonder if my 2.8 GPA undergrad and roughly B average from pre-reqs is sufficient... its very competitive

 

[Azimuthal]

40/750 is .053333% pretty basic arithmetic my friend. I've spoken to the people from Belmont I know there was roughly 750 people who applied last year and about 40 or so were admitted.

Gotta love those odds

750 may have applied but how many were actually eligible for consideration? Talk to a few admissions officers, you may be surprised at the large number of students who apply to programs they are not eligible for, i.e., GPA, GRE, missing secondary applications, etc. That 5.3% may just end up being ~15%. Basic arithmetic is what it is, basic, and further information gathering would be warranted for a more accurate interpretation.

 

[Azimuthal]

I understand tuition isn't free nor should it be... On a microeconomic level the principle of opportunity cost should come FIRST to mind before pursuing any endeavor that costs money. Does the sacrifice of your time/money warrant you a greater ROI over the long haul? That's what matters.

Nicole, are you already enrolled at the moment in a DPT program?

As an entrepreneur I can tell you its no easy task to open a new business. I will say it was the best learning experience I ever had in my entire life. The way to be the most successful as a PT is by opening your own private practice with a specialization. Someone with a business/entrepreneurial background and training will have a better shot at making this a reality.

Anyone care to explain to me why there is no entrepreneurial training or business courses integrated into the DPT curriculum? Logic seems backwards to me...

You may be mistaken about a PT program having no business management course, however, I find the course to be a joke compared to more practical b-courses. But remember that most entrepreneurs don't have b-education anyways. Heck, most are entrepreneurs because they were forced to be. They could not find a job, thus created one. That family owned fruitstand didn't need VC seed funding because they were bootstrappers and scaled up or down based on economic needs. Not everyone can start off in a garage and become Steve Jobs (although his mother connected him through IBM). I would even venture to say that we do not need formal entrepreneurship training. It's a 'go out and do' type of thing.

What we 'may' need is financial modeling, taxation, economic forecasting, data analysis/ simulation modeling, and what I personally consider the most important: innovation, disruption and service design. Even a simple marketing course may be useful. Now that's just wishful thinking. That tuition you complain of will jump if schools start offering those courses. That's why it may be opportune for some individuals still in undergrad to get a minor in business. Better yet, people like jblil, you, myself and anyone else with background could just get the APTA's approval for teaching PT b-courses for CEUs. That's just an opinion.

We also have to be cognizant of the PT's multiple roles in healthcare. There are SNF, Acute, Subacute, etc. Not everyone wants to run their own business. You seem to be too heavily focused on ROI at the monetary level. You do know that PT is a clinical healthcare degree, correct? That PTs offer a vital source of neuromusculoskelatal treatments that benefit and contributes to society? That a 'wallstreet' mentality and approach may not work here?... If you want the greatest monetary ROI, there are MD/DO, DNP, CRNA, Pod, Dentistry, etc. Why do people choose on PT? It's because they know that they will enjoy their work. In short, that is why new graduates will seek non-profit/government work and will take advantage of IBR (10% income) or/and the 120 payment loan forgiveness. Others have/will take up per diem jobs on top of their regular salaried positions. Did your ROI calculation include those variables? Just pointing out a 'dynamic' ROI (to inc. variations of multiple scenarios from one decision--high/low) versus static (lawn mower ROI for a gardener who will not expand contracts or work less). A single ROI for every decision you make is not realistic.

Did you do an ROI for job satisfaction? Is that possible? Will you be happy as a PT making only $75k/annual? Or a PT that takes up per diem or travel, 90-100k+/annual? A clinic partner/owner making 120k+? It's up to you to choose. Best of luck to you!

And yes, Nicole is a current student.

 

[paulrc]

Just in case anyone reading this forum has never had a real job before - making 70,000 with health benefits before the age of 26(avg age of graduate) on a 38 -42 hour work week, with the possibility of making near 6 figures for a 48-50 hour work week, and 100 to 130K in debt is pretty good. Its not a death sentence.

Making 70,000 with health benefits gross is alot of money, don't forget it. You won't be living like a rockstar, but you won't be starving either.

If you told the majority of Americans in their late 30's/early 40's that I am a 26 year old DPT, I make 70000 starting with health benefits but I have 100K in debt, they would say you are winning.

I make good money now and have no debt. The only reason why I am applying to PT school is because I like it. I looked at long term/big picture thinking and going into PT school still has more pros than cons.

If the debt was that bad and the pay that bad we would be having brand new physical therapists starving and dying on the streets. I just don't see it.

 

[jesspt]

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/warrenbuff149692.html

 

[TopShelf85]

I hate to be a broken record but student debt and higher education costs have spiraled outta control! Even the homepage of this site is now my echo!

The best solution is for the Federal Government to get the hell out of the student loan market. They're guaranteed to make money regardless of whether or not the individual honors their debt or not. It's BS

http://studentdoctor.net/2013/09/infographic-student-loan-crisis/

Just in case anyone reading this forum has never had a real job before - making 70,000 with health benefits before the age of 26(avg age of graduate) on a 38 -42 hour work week, with the possibility of making near 6 figures for a 48-50 hour work week, and 100 to 130K in debt is pretty good. Its not a death sentence.

Making 70,000 with health benefits gross is alot of money, don't forget it. You won't be living like a rockstar, but you won't be starving either.

If you told the majority of Americans in their late 30's/early 40's that I am a 26 year old DPT, I make 70000 starting with health benefits but I have 100K in debt, they would say you are winning.

I make good money now and have no debt. The only reason why I am applying to PT school is because I like it. I looked at long term/big picture thinking and going into PT school still has more pros than cons.

If the debt was that bad and the pay that bad we would be having brand new physical therapists starving and dying on the streets. I just don't see it.

 

[DesertPT]

you are enrolling in a program which will teach you...monetizable skills such as...science

Tell that to all the PhD's who are looking for their 3rd post-doc. And all the research associates with master's degrees who make $18.50/hr.

 

[TopShelf85]

knj27, when I think of degrees that have monetizable value I think of STEM degrees - Science, Tech, Engineering, and Mathematics. Do you feel that the tuition and VALUE of a DPT degree isn't worthwhile because of over-saturation of graduates in the market? This has happened in the legal and MBA professions where there's simply way too many people pursuing too few jobs.

Just curious what you think.

Tell that to all the PhD's who are looking for their 3rd post-doc. And all the research associates with master's degrees who make $18.50/hr.

 

[DesertPT]

Inasmuch as a DPT degree would allow me to:

1. Pursue work as a physical therapist
2. Continue to work as a physical therapist for the next 40 years
3. Study and work in an area that is of great interest to me
4. Make use of my undergraduate scientific/biomedical background
5. Have higher job security than the majority of the workforce
6. Have a relativley pleasent and flexible schedule
7. Have a very liveable income
8. Have a job I enjoy, which makes a difference in the lives of others
9. Gain a greater understanding of the human body than 95% of the population has

then yes, I feel the degree does have great value. Is the cost exorbitantly high in many cases? Perhaps. Those who decide to pursue a medical profession do so with the understanding that they will have to do what it takes to ultimately have the career they desire. As of today, there are probably 100 physical therapy clinics, home health agencies, hospital rehab departments, school districts and nursing facilities actively seeking physical therapists withing the Phoenix area. If you look at the country as a whole, PT's have a better job market than probably 90% of trades, professions or occupations. As you continue to investigate various potential career pathways, you will repeatedly find that no one of them is perfect - all have numerous pros and cons, of which earning potential will be just one (albeit near the top) of a long list.

 

[NewTestament]

KNJ:

Great points. There are so many reasons to go into PT. Yes the debt/income ratio is a little higher than most health professions, but if PT is what you want to do then become a PT. It's not like you'll only make $40k with little room for upward mobility. That's not true. If you have acumen, you can work PRN at another clinic and boost your income by $10k a year. If you pay $2k a month in student loans, you can pay off $100k in debt in just four years.

Kevin.

 

[TopShelf85]

KNJ:

Great points. There are so many reasons to go into PT. Yes the debt/income ratio is a little higher than most health professions, but if PT is what you want to do then become a PT. It's not like you'll only make $40k with little room for upward mobility. That's not true. If you have acumen, you can work PRN at another clinic and boost your income by $10k a year. If you pay $2k a month in student loans, you can pay off $100k in debt in just four years.

Kevin.

If you pay 2k a month in student loans it's not exempt from interest or late penalties. That 2k you speak of is more like 3 and if you factored in inflation it's closer to 3.5k. The devaluation of the USD to the tune of $85B a month is destroying our purchasing power. The face value of a loan is NEVER what you think... there is always interest payments.

That aside, so long as you can shoulder the debt burden its a great chance to have a rewarding career.

 

[Azimuthal]

If you pay 2k a month in student loans it's not exempt from interest or late penalties. That 2k you speak of is more like 3 and if you factored in inflation it's closer to 3.5k. The devaluation of the USD to the tune of $85B a month is destroying our purchasing power. The face value of a loan is NEVER what you think... there is always interest payments.

That aside, so long as you can shoulder the debt burden its a great chance to have a rewarding career.

Just don't apply to a school like this one and you'll be good.
http://westcoastuniversity.edu/programs/doctor-physical-therapy/tuition.html

Not a fan of private, for-profit institutions that seek more to saturate the field for short term profit rather than contribute to the betterment of the field and society. The school is seeking CPTE accreditation. Even with the outrageous tuition (not including cost of living) and inherent risks, they will most likely fill their seats.

Going back to the $2k per month comment. I'm pretty sure he included the interest when he made that comment as anyone who has ever paid monthly debt under a payment plan would know that the principle and debt are lumped. Also, I do not understand your comment about inflation. To my understanding, inflation is beneficial to the person in a fixed rate debt (as new student loans are), as the devalued dollar is used to pay off the debt. This, of course, at the price of the economy as a whole. I don't see where that extra $500 comes from in this case. Also, don't be late with payments and you won't get a late penalty ;-).

 

[TopShelf85]

Just don't apply to a school like this one and you'll be good.
http://westcoastuniversity.edu/programs/doctor-physical-therapy/tuition.html

Not a fan of private, for-profit institutions that seek more to saturate the field for short term profit rather than contribute to the betterment of the field and society. The school is seeking CPTE accreditation. Even with the outrageous tuition (not including cost of living) and inherent risks, they will most likely fill their seats.

Going back to the $2k per month comment. I'm pretty sure he included the interest when he made that comment as anyone who has ever paid monthly debt under a payment plan would know that the principle and debt are lumped. Also, I do not understand your comment about inflation. To my understanding, inflation is beneficial to the person in a fixed rate debt (as new student loans are), as the devalued dollar is used to pay off the debt. This, of course, at the price of the economy as a whole. I don't see where that extra $500 comes from in this case. Also, don't be late with payments and you won't get a late penalty ;-).

Only a very misinformed person would pay out of pocket that much to obtain this degree. Private institutions are the worst! Lets hope they don't get accreditation and over-saturate the PT market the same way the legal profession did to their field.

I spoke to a PT today who has been in the business for 25 years and she is having a very difficult time getting reimbursed for her work. She and a lot of her peers are experiencing tremendous problems collecting from their patients and warned me about entering the medical field in general. It's going to become more difficult from the most recent legislation and doctors aren't making much money.

The pay/reimbursement is lagging because the system in its current state is broke. She thinks with the advent of the PTCAS and all of the graduates there is going to be steep competition for the jobs in a few years as even the hospitals, outpatient clinics, and facilities in general are going to be hemorrhaging cash.

I personally don't know if there is an oversupply of graduates entering the PT field but I do know there are new programs sprouting up and spitting out new alumni with the DPT degree. If work is available, the ability to get reimbursed is hard. Nothing new about being a PT they're all having a hard time getting paid.

Would love feedback from those working in the field... false hope is a waste lets hear how it really is

 

[NewTestament]

Going back to the $2k per month comment. I'm pretty sure he included the interest when he made that comment as anyone who has ever paid monthly debt under a payment plan would know that the principle and debt are lumped. .

I didn't do an exact calculation. It was just an estimate. Of course you'll have to pay for interest, but even assuming a 10-12% interest rate, at $2k per month, you should be able to pay off close to $100k in debt+interest in four years. The point is that PTs will not be in debt bondage for the rest of their lives.

Kevin

 

[jesspt]

Only a very misinformed person would pay out of pocket that much to obtain this degree. Private institutions are the worst! Lets hope they don't get accreditation and over-saturate the PT market the same way the legal profession did to their field.

I spoke to a PT today who has been in the business for 25 years and she is having a very difficult time getting reimbursed for her work. She and a lot of her peers are experiencing tremendous problems collecting from their patients and warned me about entering the medical field in general. It's going to become more difficult from the most recent legislation and doctors aren't making much money.

The pay/reimbursement is lagging because the system in its current state is broke. She thinks with the advent of the PTCAS and all of the graduates there is going to be steep competition for the jobs in a few years as even the hospitals, outpatient clinics, and facilities in general are going to be hemorrhaging cash.

I personally don't know if there is an oversupply of graduates entering the PT field but I do know there are new programs sprouting up and spitting out new alumni with the DPT degree. If work is available, the ability to get reimbursed is hard. Nothing new about being a PT they're all having a hard time getting paid.

Would love feedback from those working in the field... false hope is a waste lets hear how it really is

Can't say that I have found it hard to get reimbursed, but it is sometimes hard to get reimbursed what you're worth. Some contracts with third-party payors are very stringent with their documentation requirements, Medicare being the primary example, but Cigna PPO is another one that pops into mind.

 

[TopShelf85]

Can't say that I have found it hard to get reimbursed, but it is sometimes hard to get reimbursed what you're worth. Some contracts with third-party payors are very stringent with their documentation requirements, Medicare being the primary example, but Cigna PPO is another one that pops into mind.

Vanderbilt Medical has just cut 1050 people and Cleveland Clinic announced today it will be laying off several hundred people and slashing north of 300 Million from next years annual budget. More of the biggest and best medical systems/hospitals are facing challenges from Obamacare and reimbursement from insurance companies is nothing new... I am also noticing a lot of hospital consolidation as financial hardship has gotten the better of small to mid-size ones. This in turn leads to redundancy and higher volume of attrition. Medicare is already broke and the fallout is being felt now. Doctors are leaving the profession because of how long it takes them to get reimbursed.

A woman I know been in the business for 25 years has her own private practice with 40 staff and they're barely staying afloat. She and her peers in a similar boat say that the entire system is collapsing.

As the hospital systems and healthcare providers in general will inevitably face growing pressure on their bottomline, even clinical positions are under fire. This alarms me...

http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2013/09/cleveland_clinic_to_cut_330_mi.html

"We've scrutinized the non-employee costs first, but it's just not going to be possible to meet this with those cuts alone," she said. This has become the new normal. This has been a conversation that's been ongoing, not just at the Cleveland Clinic but nationally

 

[HouseDPT]

You may be mistaken about a PT program having no business management course, however, I find the course to be a joke compared to more practical b-courses. But remember that most entrepreneurs don't have b-education anyways. Heck, most are entrepreneurs because they were forced to be. They could not find a job, thus created one. That family owned fruitstand didn't need VC seed funding because they were bootstrappers and scaled up or down based on economic needs. Not everyone can start off in a garage and become Steve Jobs (although his mother connected him through IBM). I would even venture to say that we do not need formal entrepreneurship training. It's a 'go out and do' type of thing.

What we 'may' need is financial modeling, taxation, economic forecasting, data analysis/ simulation modeling, and what I personally consider the most important: innovation, disruption and service design. Even a simple marketing course may be useful. Now that's just wishful thinking. That tuition you complain of will jump if schools start offering those courses. That's why it may be opportune for some individuals still in undergrad to get a minor in business. Better yet, people like jblil, you, myself and anyone else with background could just get the APTA's approval for teaching PT b-courses for CEUs. That's just an opinion.

Having worked in the corporate world for several years before PT school, I would be extremely irritated if my program forced me to take business management courses beyond what they already do. Talk about a complete waste of graduate-level tuition because, as Azimuthal said earlier, they have been a complete joke. These general concepts may be news to the impressionable 24-year-olds in my program who has never held a full-time job nor paid a cellphone bill, but I've gotta say that it's nothing that an afternoon playing SimCity wouldn't teach you.

Just in case anyone reading this forum has never had a real job before - making 70,000 with health benefits before the age of 26(avg age of graduate) on a 38 -42 hour work week, with the possibility of making near 6 figures for a 48-50 hour work week, and 100 to 130K in debt is pretty good. Its not a death sentence.

Making 70,000 with health benefits gross is alot of money, don't forget it. You won't be living like a rockstar, but you won't be starving either.

If you told the majority of Americans in their late 30's/early 40's that I am a 26 year old DPT, I make 70000 starting with health benefits but I have 100K in debt, they would say you are winning.

Co-sign.

 

[TopShelf85]

Having worked in the corporate world for several years before PT school, I would be extremely irritated if my program forced me to take business management courses beyond what they already do. Talk about a complete waste of graduate-level tuition because, as Azimuthal said earlier, they have been a complete joke. These general concepts may be news to the impressionable 24-year-olds in my program who has never held a full-time job nor paid a cellphone bill, but I've gotta say that it's nothing that an afternoon playing SimCity wouldn't teach you.



Co-sign.

What do you mean by Co-sign?

Also, how in the world is earning 70k on the gross NOT net with 100k of debt winning? After taxes you live on the NET this is real world logic 101... You're looking at maybe 45k after taxes depending on where you live and this is before factoring in living expenses. 100k in debt has interest so its never the principal you have to look at the interest on top of it...

45k after taxes on the net with 100k of debt is hardly winning

 

[NewTestament]

TopShelf:

I'm not sure why you continue this thread. What is your objective? To warn all of us about the impending collapse of the health care system, and the bleak future that awaits all health care professionals? What profession are you investing in?

Kevin

 

[TopShelf85]

TopShelf:

I'm not sure why you continue this thread. What is your objective? To warn all of us about the impending collapse of the health care system, and the bleak future that awaits all health care professionals? What profession are you investing in?

Kevin

It is imperative to be aware of the financial implications of anything today. Understanding the industry you're interested in or working is essential. Turning a blind eye is a mistake.... as my mentor always told me, "You can deal with reality OR reality will deal with you".

I personally do not like to give financial advice but the majority of my money is invested in precious medals like gold & silver as a hedge against currency devaluation.

 

[Dptmechanic]

Been following this topic for awhile now, just want to say I am going into this career for the love of the profession. I understand the debt and am aware of the burden. The reality is any career will have student debt! So bottom line is the amount of passion you have to pursue it. Using only numbers to come to a decision is basically accepting defeat, others have gone through this and at the end of the day are working professionals- the ultimate goal. Find a job worth doing that is enjoyable and make it happen. But what do I know.....

 

[Azimuthal]

It is imperative to be aware of the financial implications of anything today. Understanding the industry you're interested in or working is essential. Turning a blind eye is a mistake.... as my mentor always told me, "You can deal with reality OR reality will deal with you".

I personally do not like to give financial advice but the majority of my money is invested in precious medals like gold & silver as a hedge against currency devaluation.

The funny thing about reality is that it's relative. If one person is heavily concerned with school debt, they apply to cheaper schools, work and save for school or choose a different career. Better yet, join the military and use the GI Bill. If not, they make do for what choices they have and opt for income-based repayment, civil service, etc. later. Either way, I haven't heard of any PT's starving or panhandling.

Since you keep referring to this 'reality' of yours, you should go out and get some more life experience. You may come to see that everyone has their own set of variables in life and that there is no one set of calculations to predict everyone's outcome. To be inflexible to this 'real world' understanding shows a lack of life experience.

I do agree, debt is real. But so are ways of mitigating it. Are you truly interested in PT? If so, what is your objective? I haven't seen a solution or plan of action.

 

[NewTestament]

I haven't heard of any PT's starving or panhandling...

To be inflexible to this 'real world' understanding shows a lack of life experience.

There is no formula that everyone must subscribe to. The value of DPT is relative. How bad do you want it? How much debt are you willing to incur? Some would sacrifice everything. Others will choose another profession.

Kevin

 

[DesertPT]

Name me any profession and I will find you a post or thread somewhere on the internet talking about why you shouldn't go into it. Literally TopShelf, if you find a profession that I can't find at least 3 big reasons not to go into it, you win. Heck, I'll even let you throw trades in there if you want. Any job at all. Find one that has no big cons, and you win.

 

[jblil]

Any job at all. Find one that has no big cons, and you win.

Congressman.

 

[TopShelf85]

#1) Any public sector employee - after 15-20 years depending on the municipality you're entitled to a pension and healthcare for life

#2) Government officials: congressman/senator/mayor

#3) Tenured Professor/Professors in general

#4) Advertising

#5) Wealth Managers

I can keep going.....

 

[Azimuthal]

#1) Any public sector employee - after 15-20 years depending on the municipality you're entitled to a pension and healthcare for life

#2) Government officials: congressman/senator/mayor

#3) Tenured Professor/Professors in general

#4) Advertising

#5) Wealth Managers

I can keep going.....

#6) PT

In all due seriousness, there is no career without a downside. I wouldn't even have to reference anything I present if going after that list was worth the time. Oh boy...lol

 

[NewTestament]

#1) Any public sector employee - after 15-20 years depending on the municipality you're entitled to a pension and healthcare for life

#2) Government officials: congressman/senator/mayor

#3) Tenured Professor/Professors in general

.

Not only are there downsides to these professions but all three of these positions depend on taxpayers to provide their comfortable existence. Any objection to that?