Vanderbilt Undergrad for Premed

[air_cleats]

Hi everyone,

I was looking at Vanderbilt for premed, and was wondering whether any former Vandy premeds had an opinion about it. I have read some people talk about grade deflation in pre-reqs, but I am pretty sure that is the case at any college. I also have a strong STEM background as I come from a competitive high school so hopefully I wont fail too miserably. I also read that its med school was on campus which gives way to quite a few opportunities.

Overall, it seems like an excellent choice, but now I am having second thoughts given its pre-health info sheet: https://www.vanderbilt.edu/hpao/documents/2020_Annual_Report.pdf

If you scroll to pages 6-7, you come across to a list of schools and how many people applied and how many were accepted. I honestly have no idea whether this list means Vanderbilt is good or not, or whether this seems like a good acceptance list. Can somebody with more experience in this subject give me an opinion about this?

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[deleted1114112]

I personally think grade deflation is a myth these days for the most part. Sure, classes are curved and some people will be 'weeded out' by design, but it's not going to vary in amount by college by college. Like, I don't think the proportion of A's given out in general chemistry are going to be astronomically different among universities, maybe with a couple exceptions. I think universities may be 'harder' in that the atmosphere of learning may lend to a more 'rigorous' experience, but at the end of the day it's still all relative. I went to a university (not wanting to be premed initially) known for a rigorous academic environment and that supposedly practiced grade deflation, but this was not the reality at all and all my pre-reqs were curved to B+'s and sometimes higher. Courses had more depth and work than my peers at other schools but nothing worth choosing a school over another tbf.

The med schools the premeds go is probably a worthless metric. It's more dependent on the person and MCAT, GPA, and ECs. Vanderbilt is a top university in a great location, I don't think you can go wrong going there if you get in; it's also definitely not known as rigorous from my knowledge—maybe even the opposite. If you are deciding about applying early-binding decision or whatever, just pick your favorite 'top' university based on non-academic factors because those are going to practically be the same among all the top ones.

Also, in general, your success in any course or pre-req is going to be determined by your ability to study effectively, not the school.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

college acceptance rates have become so low that I don’t think these questions are even worth thinking about unless you’ve been admitted or are thinking about applying ED.

With that being said, Vandy has a solid reputation, particularly in the south. I am not sure how it is viewed in admissions circles outside of the region, though I imagine it is along the lines of a Georgetown, JHU, Boston College, NYU. If you’re set on medical school, the cost may not be worth the prestige bump that may or may not be granted. Mostly, it’s better to go with a cheaper option (not sure if they meet full demonstrated need). However, if there is even a small chance you may end up pursuing another career, Vandy will open certain doors that may be more or less sealed at other schools.

I can’t talk about the difficulty of the curriculum or competitiveness. With that being said, Vandy isn’t a school that comes to mind when I think of “grade deflators” (MIT, Princeton, Caltech, Chicago come to mind immediately).

 

[air_cleats]

college acceptance rates have become so low that I don’t think these questions are even worth thinking about unless you’ve been admitted or are thinking about applying ED.

With that being said, Vandy has a solid reputation, particularly in the south. I am not sure how it is viewed in admissions circles outside of the region, though I imagine it is along the lines of a Georgetown, JHU, Boston College, NYU. If you’re set on medical school, the cost may not be worth the prestige bump that may or may not be granted. Mostly, it’s better to go with a cheaper option (not sure if they meet full demonstrated need). However, if there is even a small chance you may end up pursuing another career, Vandy will open certain doors that may be more or less sealed at other schools.

I can’t talk about the difficulty of the curriculum or competitiveness. With that being said, Vandy isn’t a school that comes to mind when I think of “grade deflators” (MIT, Princeton, Caltech, Chicago come to mind immediately).

Yeah, I am considering EDII. I was kind of stupid and tried to SCEA to Harvard and subsequently got deferred.

 

[air_cleats]

I personally think grade deflation is a myth these days for the most part. Sure, classes are curved and some people will be 'weeded out' by design, but it's not going to vary in amount by college by college. Like, I don't think the proportion of A's given out in general chemistry are going to be astronomically different among universities, maybe with a couple exceptions. I think universities may be 'harder' in that the atmosphere of learning may lend to a more 'rigorous' experience, but at the end of the day it's still all relative. I went to a university (not wanting to be premed initially) known for a rigorous academic environment and that supposedly practiced grade deflation, but this was not the reality at all and all my pre-reqs were curved to B+'s and sometimes higher. Courses had more depth and work than my peers at other schools but nothing worth choosing a school over another tbf.

The med schools the premeds go is probably a worthless metric. It's more dependent on the person and MCAT, GPA, and ECs. Vanderbilt is a top university in a great location, I don't think you can go wrong going there if you get in; it's also definitely not known as rigorous from my knowledge—maybe even the opposite. If you are deciding about applying early-binding decision or whatever, just pick your favorite 'top' university based on non-academic factors because those are going to practically be the same among all the top ones.

Also, in general, your success in any course or pre-req is going to be determined by your ability to study effectively, not the school.

Thank you for the advice

 

[MateoGM416]

I went to a wonky ass Bible college in arkansas and still got into 2 US MD and 5 DO programs on my second try, I can't imagine how going to a school like vandy would be a disadvantage

Either way it is way too early to be worried about this stuff man, enjoy your last year of high school..

 

[chilly_md]

Go to the school you feel comfortable at and is, ideally, cheaper.

Vanderbilt is a fine school though I remember a discussion years back about how ochem was taught across different campuses and someone said Vandy had some nasty exams. Acceptance stats can always be massaged by filtering out students through committee letters, advising etc.

 

[Barrel Proof]

Some may disagree with me but imo, if you can get in to a school like Vanderbilt, you may be somebody that can score some scholarship money to one of your decent state schools. As already mentioned, if you are going to medical school the thing that matters most is what you already have inside of you - your ability to excel in tough classes and take tests well (MCAT). This is not given to you by going to a prestigious school. High marks is what they look for, regardless of institution. By no means am I saying that going to a prestigious undergrad means nothing - I am sure that it helps. I personally do not think it is worth the extra money.

I have no idea what your family/financial situation looks like. But my advice, if you will be footing the bill, is to keep costs as low as you can and go to a school where you will excel and do well and don’t worry so much about the name. Good luck!

 

[Holland]

Low-rank liberal arts school here, 12 IIs so far. I remain unconvinced undergrad institution actually matters

I was looking through my school's (top undergrad historically known for deflation and still has relatively harsh grading now) admissions grid and honestly I do think that med schools take undergrad institution into account, though the degree to which it matters is questionable because there's lots of sources of bias when comparing two institutions to one another. There's a lot of crazy stat breakdowns that I doubt you'd see at most other schools--for instance, ~80% of applicants in the past 5 years who had an MCAT <= 510 and a GPA of 3.00-3.19 got into med school; this percentage is even higher if you limit it to people in that GPA range who had an MCAT from 506-510 and only lowers substantially once you go to an MCAT lower than that, although at that point sample sizes start to get pretty small.

With that being said, I do agree that undergrad institution probably matters less than most people think, and the vast majority of the difference between student outcomes in elite vs. non-elite institutions is student driven.

 

[allseasons]

I was looking through my school's (top undergrad historically known for deflation and still has relatively harsh grading now) admissions grid and honestly I do think that med schools take undergrad institution into account, though the degree to which it matters is questionable because there's lots of sources of bias when comparing two institutions to one another. There's a lot of crazy stat breakdowns that I doubt you'd see at most other schools--for instance, ~80% of applicants in the past 5 years who had an MCAT <= 510 and a GPA of 3.00-3.19 got into med school.

With that being said, I do agree that undergrad institution probably matters less than most people think, and the vast majority of the difference between student outcomes in elite vs. non-elite institutions is student driven.

??? what school is this?

I can totally understand the low gpa point, but idk why having harder coursework would increase MCAT consideration.

 

[chilly_md]

Berkeley is probably one of the schools most known for grade deflation. They don’t get near 80% unless they crush the MCAT:

https://career.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/MedStats/MCAT-GPA-tables_2020.pdf

 

[KnightDoc]

Berkeley is probably one of the schools most known for grade deflation. They don’t get near 80% unless they crush the MCAT:

https://career.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/pdf/MedStats/MCAT-GPA-tables_2020.pdf

This^^^^^. I have no idea where @Holland's numbers are coming from, but, without seeing them myself, I have a strong feeling there is a disconnect somewhere.

With a national acceptance rate of 36% last cycle, the very top schools, AFTER massaging their numbers and doing everything in their power to discourage non-competitive candidates from applying, tend to have overall acceptance rates in the 80s. There is no way that number would hold at the bottom of their pool, since the numbers at the top are probably close to 100%, and the vast majority of their applicants tend to be near the top.

Using Vanderbilt as an example, and only looking at MCATs because its grades are not known to be deflated, its average applicant had a 514.3 MCAT compared to a national average of 506.9, and its average matriculant had a 516 MCT compared to a national 511.6. And Vanderbilt had a massaged acceptance rate of 70%.

No school has an acceptance rate of 80% for applicants below 511 with GPAs between 3.00-3.19, unless these numbers include DO and Caribbean, and that's where they are all applying. Something just isn't right.

 

[Holland]

I'm just telling you what I'm seeing right there on the data grid. I guess an explanation is that most people who still went ahead and applied with those stats had something else extraordinary about their application, and a large number probably did postbaccs. The overall acceptance rate for all applicants is like 83%; this rate falls off significantly once you look at people who scored <= 505 or < 3.00 but anything above that is honestly not bad at all as far as acceptance rates go.

There's only a ~15% difference in overall acceptance rate between students with a 3.00-3.19 and students with a 3.80-4.00, and a ~15% difference in acceptance overall acceptance rate between students with a 506-510 and students with a 99th-100th percentile score. The correlation is there but the magnitude is smaller than you would expect. I’ll check with my advising office to see if I’m able to share the exact data

 

[allseasons]

This^^^^^. I have no idea where @Holland's numbers are coming from, but, without seeing them myself, I have a strong feeling there is a disconnect somewhere.

With a national acceptance rate of 36% last cycle, the very top schools, AFTER massaging their numbers and doing everything in their power to discourage non-competitive candidates from applying, tend to have overall acceptance rates in the 80s. There is no way that number would hold at the bottom of their pool, since the numbers at the top are probably close to 100%, and the vast majority of their applicants tend to be near the top.

Using Vanderbilt as an example, and only looking at MCATs because its grades are not known to be deflated, its average applicant had a 514.3 MCAT compared to a national average of 506.9, and its average matriculant had a 516 MCT compared to a national 511.6. And Vanderbilt had a massaged acceptance rate of 70%.

No school has an acceptance rate of 80% for applicants below 511 with GPAs between 3.00-3.19, unless these numbers include DO and Caribbean, and that's where they are all applying. Something just isn't right.

what do you mean by massaging

 

[deleted1114112]

what do you mean by massaging

Probably the idea that schools will try to dissuade a 3.1/510 kid from applying because they won't get in and it will decrease their acceptance rate.

In any case the average MCAT at schools at Vandy's tier (and higher) is 514-517. The average GPA is probably in-line with ivy leagues, so relatively high. The school prepares you will enough considering the average student will end up with quite higher marks than the average matriculant. The rest is up to you. Of course, there's always going to be a cohort of students that flail during the first two years and get an uncompetitive GPA, but this happens at every school...who cares, if you were to do this at one school it's unlikely switching schools would have made a difference...obviously a few of them apply anyway, probably due to a high MCAT, but get denied.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Keep in mind that it can also go the other way. from my experience, the bottom 20% of premeds at top schools are intelligent enough for medical school but just can’t consistently match or exceed medians. I’m willing to get that many of these students (mainly the ones who were deadset on medicine) regret attending.

 

[KnightDoc]

Probably the idea that schools will try to dissuade a 3.1/510 kid from applying because they won't get in and it will decrease their acceptance rate.

This^^^^^.

Many schools refuse to provide committee letters to applicants who don't meet certain requirements. Some go out of their way to exclude applicants who do not receive their blessing to apply from their stats.

Not so much at top schools, even though most schools do some massaging. Many schools include DO and even Caribbean in the numbers.

This is how just about every school that provides numbers reports 60%+ success rates while the national average is <40%. Just like the fictional Lake Wobegon, every school in the country is above average. Massaging.

 

[allseasons]

This^^^^^.

Many schools refuse to provide committee letters to applicants who don't meet certain requirements. Some go out of their way to exclude applicants who do not receive their blessing to apply from their stats.

Not so much at top schools, even though most schools do some massaging. Many schools include DO and even Caribbean in the numbers.

This is how just about every school that provides numbers reports 60%+ success rates while the national average is <40%. Just like the fictional Lake Wobegon, every school in the country is above average. Massaging.

one of the things I realized recently is that almost every school includes DO acceptances when talking about med school acceptance rate (which is factually accurate, I just never thought of it). I was wondering how almost every school I see, even pretty low ranked ones, seem to have 60%+ acceptance rates, a lot even 70%+, when the national average is 40%. Idk about whether they include Caribbean as I never thought about that.

 

[KnightDoc]

one of the things I realized recently is that almost every school includes DO acceptances when talking about med school acceptance rate (which is factually accurate, I just never thought of it). I was wondering how almost every school I see, even pretty low ranked ones, seem to have 60%+ acceptance rates, a lot even 70%+, when the national average is 40%. Idk about whether they include Caribbean as I never thought about that.

This is exactly what I'm talking about! It's how every school ends up being above average. Even the top schools do it, albeit to a lesser degree. It's why it's foolish to use these numbers as a proxy for anything.

I learned this the hard way while researching UGs before selecting one. I met with the people running the premed advising offices, or the advisors themselves, at several schools I was considering during visits or open houses. It's when I first learned about committee letters, who gets them, and what goes into the stats at various schools.

I was shocked to learn how some top schools cooked their numbers. The schools justify it by saying it spares students needless effort and expense when they are not competitive. While there is certainly some truth to that, it was clear to the skeptical me, even back then, that schools were doing it more for themselves than for the students.

The Ivies certainly confer an advantage, but the halo effect is not as big as people think. People from HYPSM fail to get accepted to med schools every year. In far smaller numbers than at most schools, but that's because their classes are far more talented than most, not because slightly above average candidates become superstars by virtue of their attendance.

Every school has a 60%+ acceptance rate, yet the national average is 36%. This is because a healthy chunk of unsuccessful applicants at many schools are excluded from their statistics, and then, at some schools, people accepted at DO and Caribbean schools are included. This is why the universal advice is to attend the UG where you will be happiest and therefore most likely to do as well as possible.

If you are a rock star, you will be one graduating from any school in the country, and will be treated accordingly. Nothing wrong with Vandy, or any other top school, but plenty of people get into top med schools, and later top residencies, coming from all types of UGs.

 

[wysdoc]

Hi everyone,

I was looking at Vanderbilt for premed, and was wondering whether any former Vandy premeds had an opinion about it. I have read some people talk about grade deflation in pre-reqs, but I am pretty sure that is the case at any college. I also have a strong STEM background as I come from a competitive high school so hopefully I wont fail too miserably. I also read that its med school was on campus which gives way to quite a few opportunities.

Overall, it seems like an excellent choice, but now I am having second thoughts given its pre-health info sheet: https://www.vanderbilt.edu/hpao/documents/2020_Annual_Report.pdf

If you scroll to pages 6-7, you come across to a list of schools and how many people applied and how many were accepted. I honestly have no idea whether this list means Vanderbilt is good or not, or whether this seems like a good acceptance list. Can somebody with more experience in this subject give me an opinion about this?

The question is, can you earn the GPA at Vandy to be a competitive med school applicants? If it's a school where you feel supported and can be a contented student, then it's a good school for you. Attend the college where you fit in, no matter where that is.

 

[allseasons]

This is exactly what I'm talking about! It's how every school ends up being above average. Even the top schools do it, albeit to a lesser degree. It's why it's foolish to use these numbers as a proxy for anything.

I learned this the hard way while researching UGs before selecting one. I met with the people running the premed advising offices, or the advisors themselves, at several schools I was considering during visits or open houses. It's when I first learned about committee letters, who gets them, and what goes into the stats at various schools. I was shocked to learn how some top schools cooked their numbers. The schools justify it by saying it spares students needless effort and expense when they are not competitive. While there is certainly some truth to that, it was clear to the skeptical me, even back then, that schools were doing it more for themselves than for the students.

The Ivies certainly confer an advantage, but the halo effect is not as big as people think. People from HYPSM fail to get accepted to med schools every year. In far smaller numbers than at most schools, but that's because their classes are far more talented than most, not because slightly above average candidates become superstars by virtue of their attendance.

Every school has a 60%+ acceptance rate, yet the national average is 36%. This is because a healthy chunk of unsuccessful applicants at many schools are excluded from their statistics, and then, at some schools, people accepted at DO and Caribbean schools are included. This is why the universal advice is to attend the UG where you will be happiest and therefore most likely to do as well as possible.

If you are a rock star, you will be one graduating from any school in the country, and will be treated accordingly. Nothing wrong with Vandy, or any other top school, but plenty of people get into top med schools, and later top residencies, coming from all types of UGs.

What's a little problematic is I distinctly remember hearing from my undergrad's pre-med office in our pre-decision orientation "we have a med school acceptance rate much higher than the national average", and then they used the MD stat to compare, yet their posted rate was all (MD+DO) acceptances (and I still don't know whether that included Caribbean or not). At that point, it's almost outright falsification.

 

[KnightDoc]

What's a little problematic is I distinctly remember hearing from my undergrad's pre-med office in our pre-decision orientation "we have a med school acceptance rate much higher than the national average", and then they used the MD stat to compare, yet their posted rate was all (MD+DO) acceptances (and I still don't know whether that included Caribbean or not). At that point, it's almost outright falsification.

Falsification, manipulation, massaging, whatever. You know what they say about lies, damn lies and statistics, right?

All the numbers are true as far as they go, and they are all shaded to portray schools in the most positive light. Refreshingly, I found the large state schools to be most honest about it, or to not do it at all, because were the least likely to engage in a hard sell.

Mostly because they had the lowest tuition, or the best merit deals for high stat HS students, so were more busy selling that than how their premeds had better than average outcomes. One school actually told me they don't compile the numbers, but they are close to the national average. No names, but this is a huge, very well regarded state flagship.

It's when I came to the conclusion that much of what the top schools were selling was BS, beyond the fact that they have a disproportionate number of top students, and consequently better results. Top students go to Harvard and achieve great results. They also attend UCLA, Berkeley, Florida, Alabama, UT, etc., and also achieve great results. There are fewer of them, proportionally, at the state schools, so the schools' stats don't look as impressive, but there are plenty of folks right here on SDN who don't go to impressive UGs and yet are kicking butt in their cycles. Every. Single. Year.

What else is there to say on the subject? @wysdoc has it exactly right. We all achieve the best results where we are the happiest and perform at our peak. That place could be Vandy. It could be UT-Austin. It really doesn't matter. The stats suggest otherwise, but that's only because top students are disproportionately attracted to top schools. Not because average students become top student by virtue of attending top schools.

 

[deleted1114112]

The med school acceptance rate is largely a useless figure of value beyond a face value 'showoff' number that may be meaningful to people who have no idea how the process works.

Bottom line, MCAT/GPA are largely independent of the school, MCAT more than anything. If you go to a T50 undergrad your education quality will probably be the same. Sure, some rigorous schools may build a better foundation for MCAT. Sure, top schools may inflate GPAs, and state schools may use a real bell curve. Sure, a T10 name probably carries a some weight here and there. But none of these things will make or break your app.

Maybe there is something to be said about how certain undergrads consistently produce high achieving applicants, or those with near 517 MCAT averages. We all know supply and demand dominates t10 admission anyway—most of these schools have already been adamant about how they can fill their classes 10x over without changing the student body quality...and these people end up at state schools probably, they don't just evaporate, meaning the 'intelligence' or 'student quality' of average students among T50, especially upper quartiles of each class, is not as astronomical as some people think.

At the end of the day, shoot your shots at the top undergrads and just let everything play out. Go in if you get win the lottery and get accepted. Most will be much more affordable anyway, especially the t10s.

 

[allseasons]

Falsification, manipulation, massaging, whatever. You know what they say about lies, damn lies and statistics, right?

All the numbers are true as far as they go, and they are all shaded to portray schools in the most positive light. Refreshingly, I found the large state schools to be most honest about it, or to not do it at all, because were the least likely to engage in a hard sell.

Mostly because they had the lowest tuition, or the best merit deals for high stat HS students, so were more busy selling that than how their premeds had better than average outcomes. One school actually told me they don't compile the numbers, but they are close to the national average. No names, but this is a huge, very well regarded state flagship.

It's when I came to the conclusion that much of what the top schools were selling was BS, beyond the fact that they have a disproportionate number of top students, and consequently better results. Top students go to Harvard and achieve great results. They also attend UCLA, Berkeley, Florida, Alabama, UT, etc., and also achieve great results. There are fewer of them, proportionally, at the state schools, so the schools' stats don't look as impressive, but there are plenty of folks right here on SDN who don't go to impressive UGs and yet are kicking butt in their cycles. Every. Single. Year.

What else is there to say on the subject? @wysdoc has it exactly right. We all achieve the best results where we are the happiest and perform at our peak. That place could be Vandy. It could be UT-Austin. It really doesn't matter. The stats suggest otherwise, but that's only because top students are disproportionately attracted to top schools. Not because average students become top student by virtue of attending top schools.

I forgot this thread title, and was wondering why everyone here kept referencing Vandy as the go to top school. Not that it's not, it's certainly a wonderful school and definitely in the realm of "top", but it's usually not the go to for that category lol.

 

[shrutebeetandb]

Vanderbilt is great, but is it the right fit for you? That’s the best determinant of the best choice for your bachelor’s degree. You’re going to grow a lot; you want to be happy where you attend and feel connected to your community and have the ability to develop as a student and leader. It’s not worth pulling out a lot of debt for your undergraduate degree. Have you considered strong state schools in STEM, like Purdue, ASU/Barrett, Virginia Tech or Georgia Tech? Or your own in-state university, where you’re most likely to get scholarship money? Full price for Vanderbilt is hard to justify unless it is truly and absolutely the best fit for you.