VCOM Reputation in 2014?

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chiefscribejake

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Some context to my question, I'm beginning to look into osteopathic medication as a possible option and this is a school close by to where I live. Seeing as it was founded in 2002, I was wondering if anyone has heard anything about the reputation or anything that "stands out" about the school? I've read a similar thread that was posted in 2006 and read mixed reviews, but primarily lying on the side of it being a well-off university. Just curious to some insight eight years down the road from that last thread.

Would appreciate it much, thanks.
 
It's still reputable. But I think that they've tarnished their image by opening up so many schools.
 
Yeah, those partnership campuses with hack schools like Auburn....place is going down the drain. You should apply to GA-PCOM instead, or LMU-DCOM, or WVSOM. ;-)
 
Yeah, those partnership campuses with hack schools like Auburn....place is going down the drain. You should apply to GA-PCOM instead, or LMU-DCOM, or WVSOM. ;-)
the "partnerships" basically involve students having access to campus facilities, meal plans, and football tickets. There is a massive difference between this and actually being academically integrated into the university.
 
the "partnerships" basically involve students having access to campus facilities, meal plans, and football tickets. There is a massive difference between this and actually being academically integrated into the university.

Right...

VCOM with basically everything choose independence over becoming respectable and advancing their students.
 
the "partnerships" basically involve students having access to campus facilities, meal plans, and football tickets. There is a massive difference between this and actually being academically integrated into the university.

Surely they'd look more favorably upon these students for research positions and such though? I mean both Virginia Tech and Auburn have a good number of graduate programs. It just seems like it would make sense, regardless of whether or not it's officially sanctioned. Is there some sort of additional politics to this that you can explain? I've never quite understood how/why it is they partner with these larger universities in the way they do.
 
Surely they'd look more favorably upon these students for research positions and such though? I mean both Virginia Tech and Auburn have a good number of graduate programs. It just seems like it would make sense, regardless of whether or not it's officially sanctioned. Is there some sort of additional politics to this that you can explain? I've never quite understood how/why it is they partner with these larger universities in the way they do.

I imagine it being a situation of one professor or administrator knowing another and being able to set up 5 people with research positions in a few labs.
 
I imagine it being a situation of one professor or administrator knowing another and being able to set up 5 people with research positions in a few labs.

Yeah I hear ya. It's a weird situation. Like I said I'd be interested if someone actually knows the politics behind the partnerships being the way the are. Guessing it's like lend us some of your facilities, infrastructure, and recognition and we'll pay for everything else.
 
which one? VCOM operates a chain of schools.
it is a competent school. not much more than that.

Your profile is deleted or whatever - are you even in medical school to be able to make this statement. Here's the bottom line - VCOM is like pretty much every other DO school in that you get what you put into it. Do well & you can do whatever you want - but it will never be at Duke or Harvard. Cleveland clinic is possible - tons of DOs around the country match there. Be near the top of your class with the complete package & become whatever kind of doc you want to be.
 
isn't this a step in the right direction though? i mean being loosely and unofficially associated with a school is better than being completely independent in my opinion, if we want to start being more and more like MD schools in the sense of being research institutions, partnered with big schools, etc.

i dunno, maybe i'm biased since i was really impressed with VCOM-Auburn.
 
isn't this a step in the right direction though? i mean being loosely and unofficially associated with a school is better than being completely independent in my opinion, if we want to start being more and more like MD schools in the sense of being research institutions, partnered with big schools, etc.

i dunno, maybe i'm biased since i was really impressed with VCOM-Auburn.

I'm genuinely going to say that it's honestly not though. Having Auburn directly call it their own school and having VCOM simply run special administration would have been a significantly better option.
But the issue is that in that circumstance the school fiscally goes to Auburn. So VCOM gains no money from it.

Auburn not only would gain prestige as it would have graduate and professional programs in all fields, but the school would be better off.

As of now, it is truly just a stand alone campus in a state that largely does not need it.
 
I'm genuinely going to say that it's honestly not though. Having Auburn directly call it their own school and having VCOM simply run special administration would have been a significantly better option.
But the issue is that in that circumstance the school fiscally goes to Auburn. So VCOM gains no money from it.

Auburn not only would gain prestige as it would have graduate and professional programs in all fields, but the school would be better off.

As of now, it is truly just a stand alone campus in a state that largely does not need it.

you don't think that any school partnerships could pave the way for an osteopathic program opening up at a major institution in the future?

i'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to talk about things.

the way i see it is DO is still relatively "new", as in not entirely mainstream/widely accepted/etc yet, so major institutions may be hesitant to open an osteo program. i feel like numerous successful partnerships could show them that this could truly work.

i dunno, i'm certainly no expert. but i do believe that you can become a successful physician from any medical school in the nation. some schools may grant you better opportunities, but there is always the potential. meh
 
you don't think that any school partnerships could pave the way for an osteopathic program opening up at a major institution in the future?

i'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to talk about things.

the way i see it is DO is still relatively "new", as in not entirely mainstream/widely accepted/etc yet, so major institutions may be hesitant to open an osteo program. i feel like numerous successful partnerships could show them that this could truly work.

i dunno, i'm certainly no expert. but i do believe that you can become a successful physician from any medical school in the nation. some schools may grant you better opportunities, but there is always the potential. meh

I don't think it's the right way about it. Nor does it really bring any advertisement to that happening. It'll be schools like Sam Houston that will save the field and help bring about good expansion.
 
Why is it that all of these new untested schools always come with this nuanced it's the student's duty to pass and do well? And that performance has to with the individual?

Why does no one say this at established and older schools?

Look, I'll be frank. Maybe it'll work out and maybe they'll become very much a true part of AU. But I have serious doubts.
VCOM simply has a strong history of independence at the expense of it's students.
 
Why is it that all of these new untested schools always come with this nuanced it's the student's duty to pass and do well? And that performance has to with the individual?

Why does no one say this at established and older schools?

Look, I'll be frank. Maybe it'll work out and maybe they'll become very much a true part of AU. But I have serious doubts.
VCOM simply has a strong history of independence at the expense of it's students.

Be clear about one thing: at every school, the individual student is ALWAYS wholly responsible for his/her own education.

Just as every attending is wholly responsible for maintaining his/her professional education.
 
Be clear about one thing: at every school, the individual student is ALWAYS wholly responsible for his/her own education.

Just as every attending is wholly responsible for maintaining his/her professional education.


And I think that's true to a point. But the outcomes of equal students... Will be different between an established school and a new school or MD school.
The notion has less to do with passing and more with rationalizing outcomes and opportunities being the same.
 
I understand what both of you are saying but I think we should all be able to agree having access to a large established universities facilities - in whatever capacity - is definitely a benefit that a lot of DO schools could gain significantly from. We know that most DO schools are not affiliated with large universities and this is definitely seen as something detrimental when compared to other medical schools. Even if it's more or less aesthetic, I think it's a good place to start to at least be able to say "Well, such and such university has done this." Maybe others will be less hesitant to looking into affiliating a DO school in the future?
 
I understand what both of you are saying but I think we should all be able to agree having access to a large established universities facilities - in whatever capacity - is definitely a benefit that a lot of DO schools could gain significantly from. We know that most DO schools are not affiliated with large universities and this is definitely seen as something detrimental when compared to other medical schools. Even if it's more or less aesthetic, I think it's a good place to start to at least be able to say "Well, such and such university has done this." Maybe others will be less hesitant to looking into affiliating a DO school in the future?

I already tried suggesting this reasoning haha.
 
I understand what both of you are saying but I think we should all be able to agree having access to a large established universities facilities - in whatever capacity - is definitely a benefit that a lot of DO schools could gain significantly from. We know that most DO schools are not affiliated with large universities and this is definitely seen as something detrimental when compared to other medical schools. Even if it's more or less aesthetic, I think it's a good place to start to at least be able to say "Well, such and such university has done this." Maybe others will be less hesitant to looking into affiliating a DO school in the future?

But how much access is there? Is it like having researchers and professors from those labs teaching at your school and thus giving you access to many opportunities? How about coordinators with large public health programs and etc?
Or is it a, we can talk to this one guy who will talk to this guy and that will potentially get you into this one thing or another?
 
One of our fellow SDNers PM'ed me about this thread and VCOM-Auburn (I actually get a lot of those, LOL). I am posting an edited version of my reply:

"Interesting thread. At the end of the day, it's all opinion and speculation; I am not sure that one POV is more valid than the other.

Here is my take:

In any sort of school, the onus of learning falls upon the student. The institution and faculty are there to facilitate the process, develop critical thinking, and clarify concepts. The quality of the institution doesn't necessarily correlate with the quality of the faculty, and there is huge variation even within an institution.

With regards to medical school, it doesn't matter whether we attend VCOM-Auburn, ACOM, or Harvard University. We still need to learn basically the same material, pass standardized board exams, and participate in ECs.

What DOES matter is where we do our residencies. And this is where a school's reputation might come into play. I made a spreadsheet for you (attached) that might offer some context regarding residency. The data was taken from:

https://natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2014sklstats.html

According to the official AOA data, VCOM-Virginia ranked in the top 1/3 for AOA residency match, and had the fifth-highest number of non-AOA participants (e.g. they participated in the MD residency match). What this tells me is that their graduates match well above average for DO residencies, and most feel they have a great shot at MD residencies instead. My hunch is that this is a direct result of VCOM's network and availability of residency auditions.

BTW there isn't a central database of MD/DO residency match statistics by school; you would have to research all of that data and make a database. It *is* possible, though. 🙂

Yeah, yeah, yeah, VCOM-Auburn is *not* an official medical school of Auburn University. But don't tell that to the Auburn University faculty, the folks at the new/burgeoning Research Park, and the local community. Everybody here is very excited to have this school and VCOM-Auburn will enjoy robust collaboration with medical facilities, companies, and research labs. How do I know this last part? I really cannot comment other than saying I know someone intimately involved with establishing these relationships."

VCOM has a very specific mission. If that mission dovetails with your own, then wholeheartedly apply. If not, apply elsewhere and leave that spot to someone who really wants it. What good is it to attend "X" school if their mission is "Y" and your mission is "Z"?

🙂
LOL. You're starting to sound ridiculous. But hey, it adds to your SDN post count, right?

It is even better than "having researchers and professors from those labs teaching at your school and thus giving you access to many opportunities"; it is going to be a collaboration between VCOM-Auburn, Auburn University, and this place:

http://www.auburnresearchpark.com/

VCOM, working with the health/tech industry, leveraging Auburn Research Park's resources and vision, collaborating on interdisciplinary research with Auburn University researchers.
Everyone was preaching these similar lofty visions back when their VT campus opened. After over 10+ years later, it has turned out...underwhelmingly.

Perhaps VCOM does not want deeper affiliations as it would mean sacrificing their autonomy to some degree. There would possibly be more oversight, more transparency, and more accountability for their actions-- and the admin would often have to answer to the parent university on many matters. Even though deeper affiliations could raise the academic stature of their school and really put them on the map, VCOM would rather have independence and flexibility. This comes at the expense of their students and their school's potential reputation.
 
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But how much access is there? Is it like having researchers and professors from those labs teaching at your school and thus giving you access to many opportunities? How about coordinators with large public health programs and etc?
Or is it a, we can talk to this one guy who will talk to this guy and that will potentially get you into this one thing or another?
If you legitimately want to go into primary care (like their mission), are those things super important? Plus there are many unknowns. VCOM has told the interviewees the current rotations sites in AL, and none of them are the "Podunk community care clinics" everyone has been thinking they were going to be.
 
Everyone was preaching these similar lofty visions back when their VT campus opened. After over 10+ years later, it has turned out...underwhelmingly.

Perhaps VCOM does not want deeper affiliations as it would mean sacrificing their autonomy to some degree. There would likely be more oversight, transparency, and accountability for their actions-- and the admin would often have to answer to the parent university on many matters. Even though deeper affiliations could raise the academic stature of their school and really put them on the map, VCOM would rather have independence and flexibility. This comes at the expense of their students and their school's potential reputation.


Pretty much. When I came on this site in 2008 VCOM-VA was called VT's medical school and everyone talked about how it would be a shining star in the DO world. Fastforward 5 to 6 years, VT has an multimillon dollar research center and a MD school, and VCOM has two more campuses and no one talks about it being in anyway related to VT.

I'm not going to say that VCOM will not train you well, or that your degree will in anyway be less than one from a top tier school. I'm just stating my opinion that VCOM's route in planning medical education historically did not include creating strong relationships with schools and instead revolved around being independent.
 
In my opinion, VCOM uses these very loose "affiliations" to hide what they really are: a money making LECOM or Touro-like chain. Like many DO schools, VCOM acts more like a business than an honest institution of learning.
 
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VCOM uses these very loose "affiliations" to hide what they really are: a money making LECOM or Touro-like chain. Like many DO schools, VCOM acts more like a business than an honest institution of learning.

As much as I hate to slay a lot of idealism I've come to realize on my interview trail that the more a school talked about mission and what not the more it likely existed to profiteer. There are genuinely very few mission based DO schools that honestly want to help their communities. Far too many even go so far as to claim that their poor rotations at out-patient clinics are for their student's betterment and preparation for dealing with certain populations, while also providing very little learning as a clerkship ( I think VCOM tends to have good rotations albeit, though they're LECOMish in that they're very spread out).


But yah, the only truly mission based school that I believed was CUSOM. Why? because they actually invested money into building hospitals and residencies for their class in General surgery, Dermatology, fellowships in peds and Im, and etc because they acknowledge that it'll help keep the medicine inside NC more than just having a building in a rural county.
 
As much as I hate to slay a lot of idealism I've come to realize on my interview trail that the more a school talked about mission and what not the more it likely existed to profiteer. There are genuinely very few mission based DO schools that honestly want to help their communities. Far too many even go so far as to claim that their poor rotations at out-patient clinics are for their student's betterment and preparation for dealing with certain populations, while also providing very little learning as a clerkship ( I think VCOM tends to have good rotations albeit, though they're LECOMish in that they're very spread out).


But yah, the only truly mission based school that I believed was CUSOM. Why? because they actually invested money into building hospitals and residencies for their class in General surgery, Dermatology, fellowships in peds and Im, and etc because they acknowledge that it'll help keep the medicine inside NC more than just having a building in a rural county.


So in reading your many opinions, you still aren't making many sensible points supported by anything other than theory or speculation. VCOM has now started three DO programs that have affiliations with nearby schools. This is good for them because these affiliations do mean a level of autonomy, while still having a lot of benefits.

Students get gym, library and other facility access, football games and other events at a fraction of the cost to VCOM as providing these services would cost independently. VCOM provides insurance plans for students. People do have the opportunity to pursue research at VT or respective university (I am speaking of my knowledge at VCOM-VA specifically). Does this mean the school presents 20 opportunities on a silver platter? No, you have to have an interest and try, but it is not nearly as difficult as you are suggesting (or "imagining" as you put it). Is there meaningful research? Yes, and at the forefront of my mind is a joint effort with VT and Carilion in concussion studies has yielded tens of millions in funding from the DoD and NFL <http://www.hokiesports.com/pr/recaps/20140930aaa.html>. There is a lot more than just that article.

Oh, and VCOM also has the opportunity to utilize lecturers from VT, VT's Carilion Med School and VT's Vet school (and the DO clinic down the street). What a horrible idea, having partnerships that lead to a pool of MDs, DOs and PhDs right around the corner, while still being based in rural/underserved southwest VA to easier fulfill your school's mission.

What does VCOM actually get for their autonomy? They can plan, budget and execute a fiscal plan independently of a major university. This does not mean lack of accountability, and VCOM is not a for profit school. It means that funds generated from their tuition, their alumni contributions, etc. are spent as they see fit. This in no way suggests impropriety, shady business, or whatever was suggested before by someone else. There are knowledgeable administrators, and a board of directors filled with some very smart people that includes many smart lawyers, doctors, and even a businessman on the Forbes 400 list. For that matter, being a profit school wouldn't suggest whatever impropriety you were hinting at whatsoever. The world is based on profits, for profit medical tech firms and hospitals are the driving force of innovation. These are cliche blanket statements someone made based on a lack of understanding and is frankly just annoying, but I'll restrain my tangent.

You suggest that this does not match the mission, which is providing primary care services to rural and underserved areas (CUSOM is the only school that does? Did you really just say that??). VCOM is very involved in the local Appalachian area, while having a very large presence internationally. VCOM has regular mission trips and clinical rotations to El Salvador, Honduras, the Dominican Republic and Guatemala. In fact, they are set to open up a pretty large clinic in El Salvador that will provide a permanent site for such efforts. This allows VCOM to reach out to some of the poorest people in the western hemisphere at a cost they deem acceptable. This information is buried deep on their website (click on About-->International Missions), so I can understand if you couldn't find it.

How does this correlate to prestige (if that's how this whole conversation got started)? DO schools aren't ranked, so as far as I'm concerned if you take out the outliers of the top 2-3 oldest, most well known DO schools, and keeping the newest one's on "probation," I don't see there being that much variation between any. But, to address your concerns for the sake of argument:
While the above factors should only help the reputation/image/prestige of VCOM, maybe some don't really understand the tangible and intangible benefits of such an affiliation, so they form their own conclusions.

So please tell me... how does this affiliation come at the EXPENSE, either literally or figuratively, of their students? VCOM finds rotation sites, passes boards, and match better than most.

I could go on, but have said just about enough for now. It looks like you are a premed student going to another school, so I'll end by saying the above question is rhetorical and suggest you speak to things you know.
 
Pretty much. When I came on this site in 2008 VCOM-VA was called VT's medical school and everyone talked about how it would be a shining star in the DO world. Fastforward 5 to 6 years, VT has an multimillon dollar research center and a MD school, and VCOM has two more campuses and no one talks about it being in anyway related to VT.

I'm not going to say that VCOM will not train you well, or that your degree will in anyway be less than one from a top tier school. I'm just stating my opinion that VCOM's route in planning medical education historically did not include creating strong relationships with schools and instead revolved around being independent.

I dont think it helps that Virginia Tech Carlion (VTC) has VT in its name while VCOM doesn't lol

That said, how would one stack VTC with VCOM in terms of opportunity, training, education, etc? VTC is newer and in theory, should be less established...
 
I dont think it helps that Virginia Tech Carlion (VTC) has VT in its name while VCOM doesn't lol

That said, how would one stack VTC with VCOM in terms of opportunity, training, education, etc? VTC is newer and in theory, should be less established...

VTC is a medical school and research institute. TBH, it will probably win more grant money then all the VCOM's combined within probably a few years. VTC students have access to the Carilion Clinic Health System which is a tertiary teaching hospital hospital (level I trauma) with clinical professors from VTC. VCOM in VA has multiple hospital affiliations that are community teaching hospitals (some level I trauma) and not academic teaching hospitals affiliated with a university.

VTC allows for a 4 week block of dedicated research time which builds their CV for hyper-competitive specialties. VCOM does a block in undeserved care.

Now how that stacks up is utterly up to opinion. Are you going to medical school to be a doctor? Or are you going to medical school to be a prestigious academic clinician scientist?

http://www.vcom.edu/research/facultypublications.html
http://research.vtc.vt.edu/
 
Are you going to medical school to be a doctor? Or are you going to medical school to be a prestigious academic clinician scientist

I like this point because it's actually something I said in one of my interviews when the interviewer pressed me on how I could get the things I was describing about DO schools at MD schools (patient care focused, preventative medicine education, community outreach, etc.). The majority of DO schools, for better or worse, have the virtue of being more or less entirely patient care and community focused because the fact of the matter is many of them don't have anything else (and I don't say that to be disparaging).
 
I dont think it helps that Virginia Tech Carlion (VTC) has VT in its name while VCOM doesn't lol

That said, how would one stack VTC with VCOM in terms of opportunity, training, education, etc? VTC is newer and in theory, should be less established...

It's apples and oranges when you compare the two, or really most MD to DO programs in general. The brunt of this thread was comparing DO schools to each other.

I can't pretend I was ever in a behind the scenes discussion a decade ago when VCOM's affiliation and/or direct tie to Virginia Tech was being discussed. I've heard people say that VCOM was supposed to be VT's medical school, but can in to way prove or endorse that idea and its just as likely completely untrue. The school's founders wanted to start a school based on joint studies (that Virginia Tech helped lead) that saw major shortages, in southwest VA not promote research. VCOM's status has been largely beneficial in achieving that goal.

VTC's mission, as someone stated below, is HUGELY based on research. Their class size is like 42, and Research is in the full name of the school. So yes, their focus is much more aligned with the structure a major university has to offer. VCOM's classes approach 190. Their goal is to educate physicians, with some encouragement to go a primary care route, but this is in no way required.

VTC is VT's medical school. VCOM shares a lot of resources, and from this has a lot of benefits, but is not Virginia Tech. This does nothing to hurt VCOM, their mission or the success of their students.

So back to the original question of this thread regarding the prestige of various DO schools... there is no comparison. There is a reason you won't find a real ranking for them. Almost unilaterally the primary goal of DO schools is to create physicians with emphasis in primary care, and they don't have the types of direct affiliations with research hospitals that MD schools do. The metrics US News would use to compare different DO schools don't fit the square peg in a round hole.

That does not mean that research is discouraged or nonexistent. Plenty of DO schools do have relatively modest to large research programs, as does VCOM, but will not be the true focus of any DO school in the near future and they wont compete against the major MD research hubs. Its just how osteopathic schools are. They focus to make physicians, not scientists or researchers.
 
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Starting and mainting a research infrastructure (I imagine) involves significant and continuing investments of time, money and resources-- why bother when they can lazily collect tuition money, fatten their class sizes and tout themselves as "education focused" and "addressing a PCP shortage"?

By and large, DO schools exist to make money-- and building meaningfully sized research programs does not aid in that.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Research generates income for any school.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Research generates income for any school.
expenses in terms of necessary facilities and numbers of faculty-- I guess that was what I was imagining. Although what you say is certainly true, it still isn't as easy of a "cash cow" that tuition/large class sizes can be, thus why schools might not show interest.
 
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expenses in terms of necessary facilities and numbers of faculty-- I guess that was what I was imagining. Although what you say is certainly true, it still isn't as easy of a "cash cow" that tuition/large class sizes can be, thus why schools might not show interest.

Re-read your post real quick. You stated what you "guess[ed]" you were imagining, made a concession, and made a might/maybe statement.
Forgive me as this isn't meant to be as directly confrontational as it may come across, but you have very little confidence in whatever it is you're trying to argue.
Schools receiving grants for research are expected to use those funds specifically for research related costs. To not do so would be fraud. Any institution receiving funds have separate pots of money that do not mix. A research grant does not mean lower tuition for you next year.
The "cash cows" you are referencing are non-profit. This is such an overused term on this board with most people not thinking about what they are really saying. I know of one for profit DO school, it is in Colorado and by all accounts still a pretty decent school. Non profit schools do not generate income for investors, lenders, or any other stakeholders. Tuition collected goes toward improvement, expansion, or rainy day savings.
Any institution of higher education certainly wants to have some level of research, but that is not the niche of osteopathic schools. Their overall collective mission, as you so eloquently tried to under mind, is to address the physician shortage mostly I primary care fields. Are the research opportunities, rotation sites and specialty exposures on par with Ivy medical schools? No! Of course not, but that is not the goal or mission of these schools.
If you needed to see a physician about your rampant diabetes, would you hold out for months to only be seen by a top MD with at least 10 publications? Or would a physician trained for years in the field of primary care, still with four years of medical school and plenty of emphasis on clinical treatment of your disorder be enough? Great! That is what these schools want to do! Address clinical pitfalls by utilizing years of research and advancement in the medical field in the education of their students. That doesn't mean education is cheap!
Why, why, why are you trying to under mind that?




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Any institution of higher education certainly wants to have some level of research, but that is not the niche of osteopathic schools. Their overall collective mission, as you so eloquently tried to under mind, is to address the physician shortage mostly I primary care fields. Are the research opportunities, rotation sites and specialty exposures on par with Ivy medical schools? No! Of course not, but that is not the goal or mission of these schools.
I feel inclined to raise an eyebrow at schools claiming a clinical, PC or education focus (or whatever)-- while largely ignoring research, enrolling large class sizes, opening branches, maintaning low faculty:student ratios, offering questionable rotation sites, while collecting millions of easy tuition dollars (within the confines of "not-for-profit" requirements).
If you needed to see a physician about your rampant diabetes, would you hold out for months to only be seen by a top MD with at least 10 publications? Or would a physician trained for years in the field of primary care, still with four years of medical school and plenty of emphasis on clinical treatment of your disorder be enough? Great! That is what these schools want to do! Address clinical pitfalls by utilizing years of research and advancement in the medical field in the education of their students. That doesn't mean education is cheap!
Why, why, why are you trying to under mind that?
Their desire to address a PCP shortage (or whathever) may be genuine, but it is hard to not see them as simply interested in profiteering, above else.

I'm not going to question VCOM's motivations, but regardless, perceptions matter. The more schools appear to operate in this overt profiteering-like manner (3 campuses of 160+ students each?), the less favorably I fear our professional colleagues will perceive our training.
 
I feel inclined to raise an eyebrow at schools claiming a clinical, PC or education focus (or whatever)-- while largely ignoring research, enrolling large class sizes, opening branches, maintaning low faculty:student ratios, offering questionable rotation sites, while collecting millions of easy tuition dollars (within the confines of "not-for-profit" requirements).

Their desire to address a PCP shortage (or whathever) may be genuine, but it is hard to not see them as simply interested in profiteering, above else.

I'm not going to question VCOM's motivations, but regardless, perceptions matter. The more schools appear to operate in this overt profiteering-like manner (3 campuses of 160+ students each?), the less favorably I fear our professional colleagues will perceive our training.

I am not a student there, I don't plan on being a student there. But I did interview at the Carolina's campus and have to say I don't really see where you're getting a lot of these claims from.

1. Osteopathic medicine as a whole stresses patient care over research. If you haven't figured that out then I am curious what your motivations are on these forums. I interviewed at three schools (including VCOM) and all of them said "research is available, you just have to find it yourself." From what I have seen from other schools websites its more or less the same, research is available; but as a D.O. school its not their primary focus.

2. Questionable rotation sites? Are there large number of students you talk to who report this to you? Everyone I have talked to from reaching out doing research in the school has been pretty happy with their rotations. They say there are some challenges, but as long as you are motivated you can make the most of it. This "make the most of it" attitude is the same response I have gotten from anyone doing rotations anywhere from any school. So what information are you going off of to say that VCOM has large scale problems with rotations?

3. Profiteering? VCOM's tuition and average expenses add up to about 72k (with rent/food/etc added in), KCOM is about the same if not a bit more (I think I saw 74k on their website), KCUMB's tuition is 42k which is right there where the tuition is for the other two I listed and so if you add in costs of living and whatnot would put that school also at 70k+ (since its in KC, probably increase that to 75+ since it costs more to live in larger cities). So if VCOM's tuition is on par with two of the more "reputable" schools according to SDN, where is this profiteering claim coming from?

Also you talk about branching as lowering their reputation- LECOM has three campuses and maintains the lowest tuition rates in the country. Yet everyone seems to ignore their branching and focus on their attendance/dress/no food or drink in lecture hall policy. So is it that SDNers like to bitch about branching, or stringent policies, or "profiteering;" or is it that SDNers just want something to bitch about?

4. "I fear our professional colleagues will perceive our training." This is an interesting statement. I have talked to a friend who is a D.O. up in Minnesota and he talks about how students from new schools down south seem to be less able. I have talked to a fourth year at KCOM and he spoke about how schools out east don't seem to like students who come from RVU-COM (school in the west). Is this a coincidence? I don't think so, I think regional bias has and will always play into perceptions of professional competency. So what ever perceptions you feel about VCOM, I bet there are plenty of people who feel a negative perception about whatever school you are coming from; and then lets not mention D.O. vs. M.D. (oh no, I said it!)

My conclusion. VCOM seems like a good school and will make you a fine physician, just go and make the best out of the situation.
 
I feel inclined to raise an eyebrow at schools claiming a clinical, PC or education focus (or whatever)-- while largely ignoring research, enrolling large class sizes, opening branches, maintaning low faculty:student ratios, offering questionable rotation sites, while collecting millions of easy tuition dollars (within the confines of "not-for-profit" requirements).

Their desire to address a PCP shortage (or whathever) may be genuine, but it is hard to not see them as simply interested in profiteering, above else.

I'm not going to question VCOM's motivations, but regardless, perceptions matter. The more schools appear to operate in this overt profiteering-like manner (3 campuses of 160+ students each?), the less favorably I fear our professional colleagues will perceive our training.

Does math matter? Profiteering suggests unethically collecting more than needed for profit. This is a non-profit school. They educate 3-4 times the students of research heavy schools while charging tuition that is about $10K less than most other private schools. Oh, and because they are a private school, government funding is next to nothing!
So where do you think all the money is going? What do your quotes on "within the confines of non profit" mean? Do you have some inside scoop as to waste, fraud and abuse? Do you think the president gets to take home any tuition collected over $6 million a year as his own? No, its a NON-PROFIT SCHOOL. Money collected every year that is over operating costs stays in the school! It makes the school better and allows them to do things like open clinics in impoverished areas. Does that not fit the mission of the school? SERVICE to UNDERSERVED AREAS?

And I never said VCOM or DO schools don't research. As a general statement, they do not do so on a level of research heavy MD schools. The work those research institutes do is very important, and I am glad they do it. But if every medical school suddenly dropped their enrollment by 50% so research could double, I think we would be really screwing ourselves even more by lowering the number of physicians available in the future. DO schools have a mission, and they are following it in the most economically efficient way.

Perceptions only matter to people like you who want to seem critically brilliant, even when you have no basis. The public at large has favorable opinions of efforts to address health care shortages, as do most health care providers. Its 20-something sophomoric premeds and med students who get worked up over this stuff. Their perceptions are driven by what they read on a message board and choose to believe, just like wackos in California read about how bad vaccines are for their kids and believe that too. Think critically and don't just regurgitate what you heard somewhere else.
 
More and more VCOM-VA student's are specializing and moving away from Family Medicine (only say this bc I know how SDN loves to hate on FM) but a good amount still enter the school with that as their goal so they stick to the schools mission. They also have already produced a good amount of Chief Fellows and Residents since their first class graduated in '07. 56% of the most recent class now goes to an allopathic residency and 38% go to Osteopathic residency with the past two other classes nearly matching the same percentage. I would say our reputation is very good in Virginia and on the Eastern Seaboard and many people appreciate the work we do. All our instate MD programs have only good things to say about us when they see us in rotations and residency.

Also, the guy posting about the school being profiteering is nothing but speculation. It's ok though bc if you've spent over 5 years on SDN you are going to be somewhat delusional.

Lastly something thats bugged me for awhile is that the SDN D.O. forums need to stop talking crap about the schools that award our D.O. degrees. Medicine is changing and our degree is emerging. More and more people are applying and all SDN is doing is deterring people away. Why do we need the small % in our own field to only talk bad about newer institutions like LUCOM etc. It seems very childish to me. We are going to be working with these people someday with the same goals as us. So start by respecting every institution and working hard yourselves instead of trying to put others down.
 
Lastly something thats bugged me for awhile is that the SDN D.O. forums need to stop talking crap about the schools that award our D.O. degrees. Medicine is changing and our degree is emerging. More and more people are applying and all SDN is doing is deterring people away. Why do we need the small % in our own field to only talk bad about newer institutions like LUCOM etc. It seems very childish to me. We are going to be working with these people someday with the same goals as us. So start by respecting every institution and working hard yourselves instead of trying to put others down.

I think it depends on what is being talked about. Those questioning the overall goal of COCA in approving and accrediting schools with enormous class sizes, limited resources (compared to many MD institutions) with no real consideration of the risks of graduate-to-residency bottleneck at the end of the road is something that needs to be addressed and should NOT be a "don't ask, don't tell" topic. Now IF that is actually the case is unknown to most of us unless we have actually gone to a a COCA meeting.

What would be nice is to start having student positions on COCA to increase awareness of what is being discusses in these types of meetings.
 
I think it depends on what is being talked about. Those questioning the overall goal of COCA in approving and accrediting schools with enormous class sizes, limited resources (compared to many MD institutions) with no real consideration of the risks of graduate-to-residency bottleneck at the end of the road is something that needs to be addressed and should NOT be a "don't ask, don't tell" topic. Now IF that is actually the case is unknown to most of us unless we have actually gone to a a COCA meeting.

What would be nice is to start having student positions on COCA to increase awareness of what is being discusses in these types of meetings.


This might have something to do with COCA's goals...

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...uIKIDQ&usg=AFQjCNGQLLe4VLd2feCYS79LatEWnGbPyg
 

The idea that there is a shortage is a bit of a misnomer. There is more of a distribution problem and a lack of primary care. However increasing med school spots does nothing without increasing residencies which isn't happening.
 
The idea that there is a shortage is a bit of a misnomer. There is more of a distribution problem and a lack of primary care. However increasing med school spots does nothing without increasing residencies which isn't happening.

From the article:

"The organization called on Congress to raise the federal cap on slots for medical residents at teaching hospitals by 3,000 annually, at a cost it estimated would be about $1 billion per year. The government provides its $40,000 share of the cost of training each U.S. physician — estimated at about $152,000 annually — via the Medicare program. Currently, those hospitals train 27,000 to 29,000 doctors each year."

They are trying, though admittedly right now there is much more progress on the med school front than the residency front.
 
From the article:

"The organization called on Congress to raise the federal cap on slots for medical residents at teaching hospitals by 3,000 annually, at a cost it estimated would be about $1 billion per year. The government provides its $40,000 share of the cost of training each U.S. physician — estimated at about $152,000 annually — via the Medicare program. Currently, those hospitals train 27,000 to 29,000 doctors each year."

They are trying, though admittedly right now there is much more progress on the med school front than the residency front.

You can't do med school without residency. COCA must stop the expansion of medical school until we get more residency spots. Also COCA needs to raise their standards. Put schools on probation when their pass rates are low. WCU had a pass rate in the 70s a couple years back. Why weren't they on probation? Can't focus on quantity and not quality. Coca isn't a good organization.
 
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