Verbal committment before the match

[SIMRAN111]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Recently an osteopathic EM program called me up after an interview and assured me that I have a guaranteed spot in thier program. They then asked me as to how I will rank them and asked me to let them know before the match.

Sure i want the spot but I dont know the ranking. Someone advised me you should tell all the programs you will rank them #1... I mean is it ok to do before the match provided if you do not match to that spot and EM is a small community they will hold a grudge against you ?....

 

[Traveler22]

Sorry to hear you are in this predicament. This is totally unethical. 😱 A program may not ask you what you are going to rank them.

It is a hard choice at this point. If you go ahead and tell them they are number one at this point you are just covering your butt. Because you should have never been asked in the first place. I don't endorse lying but you sort of have to play the game to keep your options open. If you think it is enough to say you are honestly very interested in the program but haven't made up your mind, that would be a good way for now. If you wanted to take this any further you could always discuss it with your EM faculty or dean for some more advice, as this very well could be reportable to the Match.

I would suggest talking to a faculty or dean who you trust in your program.

Best of luck.

 

[southerndoc]

Programs still do this crap? How pathetic.

 

[Hercules]

Recently an osteopathic EM program called me up after an interview and assured me that I have a guaranteed spot in thier program. They then asked me as to how I will rank them and asked me to let them know before the match.

Sure i want the spot but I dont know the ranking. Someone advised me you should tell all the programs you will rank them #1... I mean is it ok to do before the match provided if you do not match to that spot and EM is a small community they will hold a grudge against you ?....

First off they're being unethical to ask you. That said... Do NOT tell every program that you will rank them number one. EM is a small world and you really don't want to start your career with a national reputation for lying. Giving them the vague "I plan on ranking you highly" is absolutely fine, lying is not.

 

[wadoc]

I agree--if you honestly do plan to rank them highly, tell them. But you still have >1 month's time to reflect on your ROL, and if you have even one more interview, your entire perspective could change. I know a guy who applied to Uro (also a small community) last year who ended up telling 2 programs they were his #1--he matched at NEITHER.

It is too bad this is still going on though. After I was given feedback on my application at an older, well-established MD program, the PD told me, "be sure to let us know what you think of us before we submit our rank lists." More subtle, but still I think against the rules. Kind of disappointing since I really liked the program and that kind of taints things for me.

 

[deleted87716]

Do NOT tell every program that you will rank them number one. EM is a small world and you really don't want to start your career with a national reputation for lying.

It's highly unlikely that would happen. First of all, most programs aren't going to play those sort of games, as they're borderline Match violations. Second, even if a program did, they'd be stupid to tell another program about it. Think about it. "Hey, that SIMRAN111 guy said he was going to rank us number one, but he matched at your program instead. WTF?!?" Pretty lame, no? You don't have much to worry about, IMO. They shouldn't be trying to pin you down to begin with, so you have little to lose by telling them what they want to hear.

 

[Hercules]

It's highly unlikely that would happen. First of all, most programs aren't going to play those sort of games, as they're borderline Match violations. Second, even if a program did, they'd be stupid to tell another program about it. Think about it. "Hey, that SIMRAN111 guy said he was going to rank us number one, but he matched at your program instead. WTF?!?" Pretty lame, no? You don't have much to worry about, IMO. They shouldn't be trying to pin you down to begin with, so you have little to lose by telling them what they want to hear.

I'm not saying programs are going to run around comparing notes on you, but why compromise your own integrity by lying?. If a program has you ranked to match, i.e. they have 10 spots and you're in their top 10, then they know you lied if you tell them they're number one and you don't match there. I had two programs that wanted to know why I hadn't matched with them when I ran into them later on. I was very interested in both their programs and had put them high on my list, but not number one. If I had told them they were number one on my list I would have felt like a real tool. I guess that's just me though.

 

[SecretReviewer]

Think about it. "Hey, that SIMRAN111 guy said he was going to rank us number one, but he matched at your program instead. WTF?!?" Pretty lame, no?

Maybe not so lame if you had given your verbal commitment (ie, lied) to a PD who knew well the PD at the other program. And in a collegial profession, at least some PDs do know and talk to each other--from curriculum, applicants, to shooting the proverbial ___ at ACEP and other meetings. Why wouldn't they tell their colleague/friend? Many PDs came from dynamite programs where they have been residents together or have had others as residents while they were attendings.

These examples are evidence enough for me:

1) I interviewed with a PD at a west coast school who said he had talked to my PD informally about EACH of our applicants applying to his program--who was strong, who to definitely interview despite a couple red flags, clarifying comments on letters of rec, and catching up on his family, etc.

2) Earlier in the season, my PD explicitly said, "DO NOT tell 2 programs you'll rank them number one because many of us know and talk to each other." An applicant last year had to write a not-so-well received letter to the first #1 school after he/she changed his/her mind.

Regardless of whether the program asks you where you'll rank them, don't tell 2 programs you'll rank them #1. Regardless if they aren't honest, you should be.

 

[Aloha Kid]

Answer is simple. Tell them you're ranking them #1. Then, when you get a better #1, call them back and say you are not.

 

[CueDoc]

Answer is simple. Tell them you're ranking them #1. Then, when you get a better #1, call them back and say you are not.

you can't be serious

 

[thundercat77]

I thought it was unethical for PD's to talk to each other about residency applicants. Now granted, it probably happens more times than not, but for someone to be so public about such discussions is very dangerous.

If I'm not mistaken, it's a FERPA violation. You can release information to the programs you are applying to, but it's illegal for programs to talk to each other without your permission regarding your status.

Unfortuantely, most of us are not in a position to make orders and file complaints during match period.

Oh well...hopefully this too, shall pass.

 

[EctopicFetus]

If they are gonna play dirty then why not play dirty. This is a clear match violation. I assume the DO match plays by the same rules as the allo match.

 

[kbrown]

If they are gonna play dirty then why not play dirty. This is a clear match violation. I assume the DO match plays by the same rules as the allo match.

I don't think that they do. I am no a DO, but I was talking to a 4th year last week who was just in a similar situation and said that people sign contracts outside of the match often in the DO match. He is "guarnateed" to be going to a certain program. I asked him if this was the same "certainty" that we have in the Allo match when we are "promised" to be ranked to match. He said that he didn't think so, but wasn't sure.

So, anyone who is a DO might want to chime in here, but I don't think that this is that uncommon from what he said.

 

[Dr.Evil1]

Hey Doc Brown

I have heard that the Osteo match is totally different than the Allo match. It is more based upon a verbal or signed commitment to a particular program rather then the match that us Allo's know and love. DO's need to chime in here and give this person some advice that they can actually use.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Hey Doc Brown

I have heard that the Osteo match is totally different than the Allo match. It is more based upon a verbal or signed commitment to a particular program rather then the match that us Allo's know and love. DO's need to chime in here and give this person some advice that they can actually use.

I mean I know that when we went thru the match last yr you could offer up your opinion and they could offer theirs but we couldnt ask and they couldnt either. In other words I could tell the In N out residency that they were my #1 but I couldnt ask where they ranked me.

Of course even though they promised me I was their #1 with a guaranteed spot in the coveted Fries fellowship they lied.. I didnt match there. BASTARDS!

 

[NKMU]

The D.O. match is totally different from the allopathic match. Most of my friends applying to D.O. only places already know where they'll be next year. My friend was recently told that she was third on the rank order list at a program with two spots.

Getting a spot in the D.O. world is all about rotating there and--if you impress them--convincing them that they are your number one. To paraphrase a D.O. resident I worked with recently, "If we get even a sense that they (the applicants) aren't sure they want to come here, they're off the rank list"

 

[DropkickMurphy]

you can't be serious

Carpe scrotum.......because you'd have to have a pair to do something like that. 👍

 

[deleted87716]

why compromise your own integrity by lying?

"Remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Costanza 😉

 

[DropkickMurphy]

"Remember, it's not a lie if you believe it." - George Costanza 😉

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[kalico]

A similar situation happened to me as the OP, and I was VERY uncomfortable because it was my very first interview and this conversation took place a few hours after the interview was over. I told them that it was my first interview and it was too early for me to tell, but the program has a lot of the characteristics I am looking for, and I would be in touch in December/January. But, yea -- I was explicitly asked where they sat on my rank list... the explanation was that if I wasn't interested, then they could offer the spot to another applicant (who might go somewhere else in the meantime).

It's definitely interesting. I also think it's an interesting dynamic to be put in the position where you may have to choose between, say, your #2 or 3 program (D.O.) who is offering you a spot in NOVEMBER versus waiting to see if you'll even get any allopathic interviews (or more D.O. interviews), going on those, and risk losing that D.O. spot because you weren't "eager" enough, or in my case, just plain ole' wasn't sure yet (again, it was my FIRST interview!!). I can't help but wonder if it is somehow playing into the whole keeping D.O.s in the D.O. match - give you the security of a spot early versus going into the unknown of the M.D. match... or maybe that's just my love of conspiracy theories.

To the OP, I say make a tentative rank list. If that program is in your top three, tell them all the things that you like about the program and that you will be ranking them "highly". If it's not, and you can reasonably get into one of your top 3, then say you'll be ranking them but you're still figuring everything out. If you are not doing the D.O. match at all anymore, if you wanna be nice, you can call and let them know that so they can put another candidate at ease.

To the other posters, yes this is TOTAL violation of the match agreement, despite the fact that the D.O. match is "different," the rules are technically still the same. I was warned about this two years ago from friends but had totally forgotten about it until my cell phone rang on the way home from the interview. Sheesh.

-K

 

[Thousandth]

This is also not something isolated to just EM. I have friends applying to Neurosurgery and Surgery (D.O. programs for both), and they are running into very similar situations. It really makes you not want to even consider the DO match with this being the norm. Especially the horror stories about those few who have been "forced" into saying they would rank the program #1 and then count on that program yet come match day they dont match there. It really is a load of crap. uggh. Not ethical in the least.