Very concerned.

[Leukocyte]

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I am a FM resident who is about to finish residency, but wanting to do a second residency in Pathology. I do not like clinical medicine, but like the theory behind pathogenesis. I am planning to apply in the 2011 match, but reading some of the posts here about the bad job market is getting me very concerned. I mean, I do not want to spend another 4 years in a second residency, and end up without a job. As a 3rd year FM resident, I cannot relate or even understand how a physician like a pathologist can have a hard time finding a job. My experience in FM is very different. It is almost the opposite of what I hear is going on in Pathology. In FM, the jobs EXCEED the number of available FMs. I have been getting actual offers for jobs since I became a second year resident. Why is the case in Pathology so different?
Despite the abundance of jobs in FM, I do not want to work in that field because I hate it. I am really interested in Pathology, but I am very scared to do ANOTHER bad carreer move (like I did when I entered a FM residiency).
I really do not know what to do at this time...should I apply to pathology? or should I look into other non-clinical fields? I am in my mid 30's and I do not have much time to waste in a second residency if it is not a "sure thing". Working as a Family Practicioner after graduation is out of the question. I hate clinical medicine.

Thank you in advance for any input.

 

[SkinPath]

I would NOT go into pathology. It will be 5 years at least, since almost everyone now needs to do a fellowship --- I do not see that changing over the next 4 years. You are in your mid-30's, so just get out there and practice. If you hate clinical medicine that much, get an academic job where you can minimize your clinic time in lieu of academic/administrative time. You would be better off doing that and making a decent salary, than doing another residency. With the healthcare stuff going on, being in primary care might now become a blessing than a curse.

The only other non-clinical fields are Rads, Anesthesia, and maybe Rad-Onc (but there is a lot of patient care involved in that) --- all much more competitive to get into than pathology.

In sum, just stick to what you've already got. Medicine is going to suck for all of us anyway with all the forthcoming changes, so at this juncture, it would be better to be practical than to follow the desires of your heart, so to speak.

 

[Patho2009]

It is true that the market for pathology is not very good at this time. Remember that the length of residency in pathology is four years but it very often stretches to one or two more years for doing fellowships which are very important in Pathology (i.e. you will "waste" at least 5-6 years in pathology). You have to weigh things very carefully and make informed decisions based on the reality, not what you like.


Since you are a clinical medicine hater, I recommend you seriously consider radiology (short, much more openings, more interesting diagnostic or no-patient field..) rather than pathology (lengthy, less openings) ..



Have you thought about radiology??

 

[Entgegen]

Since you are a clinical medicine hater, I recommend you seriously consider radiology (short, much more openings, more interesting diagnostic or no-patient field..) rather than pathology (lengthy, less openings) ..



Have you thought about radiology??

Just FYI, radiology is a 4-year residency (5 if you count the internship) and most radiology grads nowadays are also doing fellowships due to their job market tightening up. Though they're a little more optimistic that their job market will open up a bit once the economy and healthcare reform straightens itself out...but then they're pumping out >1,000 grads a year into their job market. www.auntminnie.com is the big radiology forum where all these things are discussed.

 

[green mantis]

My experience in FM is very different. It is almost the opposite of what I hear is going on in Pathology. In FM, the jobs EXCEED the number of available FMs. I have been getting actual offers for jobs since I became a second year resident.

I'm not sure I agree w/ this statement. It may be related to which part of the country you're in. I know people who struggle to find positions in California (Bay Area or LA/OC). An overabundance of jobs in places where nobody wants to go doesn't mean anything.


----- Antony

 

[Patho2009]

Sorry I didn't know that the job market for radiology is bad as well.

 

[deleted314957]

I am a FM resident who is about to finish residency, but wanting to do a second residency in Pathology. I do not like clinical medicine, but like the theory behind pathogenesis. I am planning to apply in the 2011 match, but reading some of the posts here about the bad job market is getting me very concerned. I mean, I do not want to spend another 4 years in a second residency, and end up without a job. As a 3rd year FM resident, I cannot relate or even understand how a physician like a pathologist can have a hard time finding a job. My experience in FM is very different. It is almost the opposite of what I hear is going on in Pathology. In FM, the jobs EXCEED the number of available FMs. I have been getting actual offers for jobs since I became a second year resident. Why is the case in Pathology so different?
Despite the abundance of jobs in FM, I do not want to work in that field because I hate it. I am really interested in Pathology, but I am very scared to do ANOTHER bad carreer move (like I did when I entered a FM residiency).
I really do not know what to do at this time...should I apply to pathology? or should I look into other non-clinical fields? I am in my mid 30's and I do not have much time to waste in a second residency if it is not a "sure thing". Working as a Family Practicioner after graduation is out of the question. I hate clinical medicine.

Thank you in advance for any input.

Have you considered an MPH. MD/MPH opens up lots of non-clinical opportunities. One of my former partners "retired" after we sold our group. He had an MPH from Hopkins and went to work for Rand doing all kind of "studies". Also MD/JD. Only 3 years with lots of opportunities and lots of law schools will let you forego the LSAT. MD/MBA is another route.

 

[Whetherby]

The job market is not good, but it's not as dismal as you would think based on this forum. I don't know the actual numbers (no one seems to) but the vast majority of graduates find jobs, usually after one or possibly two fellowships. If you really love pathology and really hate FM, I wouldn't drop the idea of pathology just because a few digruntled people on this forum are having trouble finding jobs right now. I have never regretted my decision to do pathology, nor have most of the people I trained with.

In my opinion, the place you train at has a big effect on your job prospects. If you think you can get into one of the top-tier program, that will help significantly.

Now...let's hear it everyone: "What are you talking about???"..."I completey disagree!"..."OMFG, what planet are you on?"...

 

[Pathwrath]

From my perspective, you are contemplating a change from a specialty with incompetent leadership, lousy clout, and abundant jobs to one with incompetent leadership, lousy clout, and lousy job opportunities for the forseeable future. All right on the cusp of MAJOR health care reform! Stupid for an ingenu in his/her 20's. REALLY stupid for one in his/her mid 30's.

If you can't stand clinical practice, use your certification to get an administrative job or work for insurance, HMO's, drug companies, or other private industry. There are lots of good non-clinical jobs for people with your training! If it's the set-up you don't like, investigate other arrangements.

Pathology is already full of people postponing their careers while chasing fellowships. Get on with your life and start working already.

 

[pathdoc68]

Have you considered occupational medicine?

 

[oldfatman]

Make a list of all the things you like/don't like about Family Medicine and make a list of all the things that you think Pathology is that you like about Pathology.

Have you actually followed a pathologist for a week or so?

 

[lipomas]

Don't switch into pathology just because you hate FM and think you might like pathology. No offense, but you've already spent 3 years in FM. Did you just now figure out you hated it? Why did you finish it if you have no plans to get a job? Did you go into FM because you couldn't get into a field you really wanted to get into? All of these are hard questions to confront but necessary ones. If you were a marginal candidate at the time of original residency application your candidacy is not likely going to be significantly improved. Which means you are unlikely to get into a great pathology training program.

The jobs are there, that would not be my concern. The rate of actual unemployed pathologists is not very high. It is certainly harder to find a good job in pathology, and because openings are cyclical and the field is smaller you may have to face the possibility that you have to move a distance away from where you ideally want to be. There are many who are in jobs that they don't like very much or they aren't paid as well as they could be, but if people are honest with themselves they will realize that this describes nearly every career in the world to some extent.

You have to ask yourself why you want to do pathology, how much you want to do it, and whether you are willing to throw away your FM credentials to do it. You also have to ask yourself what your life's priorities are. Is it family? Location of practice? Autonomy? Or is it just that you want a higher salary?

 

[pathstudent]

Go for it. It is only another four to five years. There are plenty of jobs in academics especially if you go niche like renal pathology or peda pathology. Personally i think people going into primary care have all been duped. I can't blame you for wanting to get out.

 

[2121115]

I am a FM resident who is about to finish residency, but wanting to do a second residency in Pathology. I do not like clinical medicine, but like the theory behind pathogenesis. I am planning to apply in the 2011 match, but reading some of the posts here about the bad job market is getting me very concerned. I mean, I do not want to spend another 4 years in a second residency, and end up without a job. As a 3rd year FM resident, I cannot relate or even understand how a physician like a pathologist can have a hard time finding a job. My experience in FM is very different. It is almost the opposite of what I hear is going on in Pathology. In FM, the jobs EXCEED the number of available FMs. I have been getting actual offers for jobs since I became a second year resident. Why is the case in Pathology so different?
Despite the abundance of jobs in FM, I do not want to work in that field because I hate it. I am really interested in Pathology, but I am very scared to do ANOTHER bad carreer move (like I did when I entered a FM residiency).
I really do not know what to do at this time...should I apply to pathology? or should I look into other non-clinical fields? I am in my mid 30's and I do not have much time to waste in a second residency if it is not a "sure thing". Working as a Family Practicioner after graduation is out of the question. I hate clinical medicine.

Thank you in advance for any input.

LOL. Dude you are joking right?

Look. Just get a job, make some $$, and enjoy your family. I know our clinical colleagues think pathology residency must be a breeze and it looks like it won't be so bad. However, do you really want to go back to being crapped upon like an intern and work 70+ hour weeks? Because if you are at a strong pathology program there is a high likelihood that it will be like that. In your position I would have no tolerance for going back to that. Just get a job and enjoy making the $$ while it is still there. Don't pour 6 years of your life into another residency.

 

[gbwillner]

Thank you in advance for any input.

Look, If you don't like FM but think you'd like path, I recommed doing some type of path rotation at your current institution. If you don't fall asleep at the scope and actually enjoy it, and feel that you could survive another residency, you should go for it.

To counter other's points- residency does NOT have to be 5 years. if you do AP/CP and intend on doing private it probably does, but if you want to do academics or maybe lots of research you could do it in 3-4.

The job market is sub-optimal if you want to do Private practice in LA. If you want to be in Alabama it's probably good. If you want to do academics it is excellent, especially if you do a rare fellowship that is easy to land like Peds. I think most peds spots are unfilled every year and there are lots of job openings. I also don't think there is much of a problem in forensics, renal, optho, etc.

Or... maybe go into industry.

 

[Unty]

Why dont you go open a cosmetic clinic or train to become a hair transplant surgeon and open up your own clinic. How about just work in private practice and consult specialists on everything (your buddies). I've seen a FP or IM doc do this...he would come to round on his patients in jeans and just have his buddies care for the patient. He seemed stress free.

 

[path24]

Go to a general physician hiring site with jobs (1,000s of physicians jobs)...you won't find a pathology job on there. If you are lucky one or two.

Go to the CAP jobsite....very few jobs. 20% are military and the military doesn't even need pathologists. Look at the dates posted..they don't stay up for long.

Go to pathoutlines.com...jobs...testimonials. Jobs get more applicants than they know what to do with. 40-50+ per job.

A patient will wait days, weeks, months to see a physician. A specimen won't wait a day unless its late sunday afternoon then it will just wait overnight.

Ask a resident if they have a job. They won't have one. Some fellows don't and they are a month from being done.

Pathologists are becoming "overglorified lab techs".....how fast??? It will be cheaper for healthcare if we do (and no one is going to stop this...not CAP, USCAP, ASCP...etc.) and it will happen in the long run, but again how fast???

Pathology is a just like every other job. Supply and demand....definite oversupply and no demand at all. Exactly why we get used by physicians and mbas.

 

[lipomas]

Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how are you enjoying the play?



path24 definitely understands the concept of hyperbole!

 

[pathstudent]

Again,

Just go for it. My girlfriend's friend did 3 years of peds and a fourth year chief and at some point realized that peds wasn't for her. She went into the match for E.Med and didn't match becasue she had to into into the one program in the same city where her husband just got hired as a spine surgeon. So she scrambled into Gas. Did 4 years of that. And got a job right out of residency working three days a week with no call and earns 300K before taxes. The point is had she just went with Peds because the road was too hard then she would have been stuck working her ass off doing something she hated for half as much money and two times the work.

Go for it. You only live once!

 

[Leukocyte]

Thank you all for your great input. Pruritis, thanks for your valuble PM. Gungho, thanks for being a great example of a success story of someone who practiced FM for 19 years, then switched to Pathology, amazing!

Again, practicing in-patient or out-patient FM after graduation is out of the question. Not even urgent care, cosmetic medicine, or what have you. I really do not enjoy the Pt interaction. In fact, I hate it. I hate it the most if I am acting as a Primary Care Provider, because I HAVE TO manage every problem the pt has. And to the poster to said to just refer everything to specialists...well, in the real world this does not exist. Or at least it is not sustainable. As a FM, you cannot just refer everything to specialists, and let them take care of YOUR patient. The specialist is just a consultant, who will see the pt for 1 hour, make some recomendations for the FM, and then ship the Pt back were he came from, to the FM doc for continued care and management. That is what SUCK about being a FM. You have to deal with way too much crap. It is disgusting, if you hate long term pt contact, and getting involved in your Pt.'s lives. Urgent care and In-patient medicine are slightly better, and that is why 70% of my graduating class are going to be full-time hospitalists or just work in Urgent Care....But again, you still have to deal with crazy people and their attitudes, and I hate that. I would prefer to be "behind the scenes", with NO pt. contact...or if I HAVE TO, then the pt. contact must be VERY brief and EXTREMELY focused on ONE single problem, in ONE part of the body. Not all over the place, like what happens in FM.

So, after reading your posts, I get a mixed picture of the job market. Some of you say there are jobs, but just in "undesirable places", and in acedemics. Others say there are a few jobs all around period. Well for me, I really do not care were I work. So, If I am flexible and willing to work in the "undesirable places", or in acedemics, will I find a job easily after residency? Also, if the jobs in acedemics are so abundant, as some of you say, then why are you guys not going for acedemic jobs? What is wrong about working in acedemics? Are the jobs in acedemics really that plentiful? Are there really plenty of jobs out there in "undesirable places" if one is flexible and willing to move anywhwere?

Thank you all for your input, I am still having second thoughts, and doubts, about doing a second residency in Pathology. Again, I do not want to make another carreer disaster in my mid 30's. I want a "sure thing" with a good job security...kinda like FM's job security, or at least close to FM's job security. From my experience as a FM resident, everyone and his mother (and dog), wants to hire graduating FM residents. At least, every week, I have 2-3 people calling my CELLPHONE (which I have no idea where they got the # from) telling me to submit my CV to so and so. Some even have the guts to overhead page me by calling the hospital's operator! That is not to mention the direct offers I get through the mail that litter my mail-box. And we are not talking about "undesirable places", we are talking cities and suburbs of cities. Well, I am not asking for that level of job security...but at least a good chance that I will find a job after finishing a second residency. It is just too bad that Pathology is in the state it is now...now when I want to join it. I am just unlucky.🙄

Anyway, thank you all for the input. Any furthur advice is always welcome.

God Bless.

 

[deleted314957]

Thank you all for your great input. Pruritis, thanks for your valuble PM. Gungho, thanks for being a great example of a success story of someone who practiced FM for 19 years, then switched to Pathology, amazing!

Again, practicing in-patient or out-patient FM after graduation is out of the question. Not even urgent care, cosmetic medicine, or what have you. I really do not enjoy the Pt interaction. In fact, I hate it. I hate it the most if I am acting as a Primary Care Provider, because I HAVE TO manage every problem the pt has. And to the poster to said to just refer everything to specialists...well, in the real world this does not exist. Or at least it is not sustainable. As a FM, you cannot just refer everything to specialists, and let them take care of YOUR patient. The specialist is just a consultant, who will see the pt for 1 hour, make some recomendations for the FM, and then ship the Pt back were he came from, to the FM doc for continued care and management. That is what SUCK about being a FM. You have to deal with way too much crap. It is disgusting, if you hate long term pt contact, and getting involved in your Pt.'s lives. Urgent care and In-patient medicine are slightly better, and that is why 70% of my graduating class are going to be full-time hospitalists or just work in Urgent Care....But again, you still have to deal with crazy people and their attitudes, and I hate that. I would prefer to be "behind the scenes", with NO pt. contact...or if I HAVE TO, then the pt. contact must be VERY brief and EXTREMELY focused on ONE single problem, in ONE part of the body. Not all over the place, like what happens in FM.

So, after reading your posts, I get a mixed picture of the job market. Some of you say there are jobs, but just in "undesirable places", and in acedemics. Others say there are a few jobs all around period. Well for me, I really do not care were I work. So, If I am flexible and willing to work in the "undesirable places", or in acedemics, will I find a job easily after residency? Also, if the jobs in acedemics are so abundant, as some of you say, then why are you guys not going for acedemic jobs? What is wrong about working in acedemics? Are the jobs in acedemics really that plentiful? Are there really plenty of jobs out there in "undesirable places" if one is flexible and willing to move anywhwere?

Thank you all for your input, I am still having second thoughts, and doubts, about doing a second residency in Pathology. Again, I do not want to make another carreer disaster in my mid 30's. I want a "sure thing" with a good job security...kinda like FM's job security, or at least close to FM's job security. From my experience as a FM resident, everyone and his mother (and dog), wants to hire graduating FM residents. At least, every week, I have 2-3 people calling my CELLPHONE (which I have no idea where they got the # from) telling me to submit my CV to so and so. Some even have the guts to overhead page me by calling the hospital's operator! That is not to mention the direct offers I get through the mail that litter my mail-box. And we are not talking about "undesirable places", we are talking cities and suburbs of cities. Well, I am not asking for that level of job security...but at least a good chance that I will find a job after finishing a second residency. It is just too bad that Pathology is in the state it is now...now when I want to join it. I am just unlucky.🙄

Anyway, thank you all for the input. Any furthur advice is always welcome.

God Bless.

Sorry to tell you, my friend, but the thing with "job security" does not exist. If you are an "owner-equity partner" in a path group you usually feel pretty comfortable---but my former group partners ,acting as a board of directors, has fired a couple partners who felt pretty comfortable.

Got a "contract" with a hospital as a solo or independent contractor, etc?---Your "contract" is good until the next hospital board of directors meeting.
And if you are an employee-- doesn't take much imagination.

All you can really do is work hard and never forget the 3 "A's" of pathology: Affability, Availabilty and Ability---generally in that order.

 

[Leukocyte]

Sorry to tell you, my friend, but the thing with "job security" does not exist. If you are an "owner-equity partner" in a path group you usually feel pretty comfortable---but my former group partners ,acting as a board of directors, has fired a couple partners who felt pretty comfortable.

Got a "contract" with a hospital as a solo or independent contractor, etc?---Your "contract" is good until the next hospital board of directors meeting.
And if you are an employee-- doesn't take much imagination.

All you can really do is work hard and never forget the 3 "A's" of pathology: Affability, Availabilty and Ability---generally in that order.

I guess I cannot make my cake and eat it too. It is like I either marry a beautiful supper-hot girl but with a bad personality...or...marry an ugly fat chick but with a great personality. Why in the world can't I find a beautiful girl who also has a wonderful personality? Maybe I am asking too much from this sh%ty world.🙁

 

[markglt]

how in the world did you survive three years of f.m. residency hating it. didn't you realize you hated clinical med, in like your 3rd yr of med. school?
go for path.
why stick with a career you hate..you'll hate yourself and your stupid job.
yes it is a ****ty world and you made a ****ty choice...sack up, apply to path and worry about the stupid job market in 4 years.

 

[Anfield rd]

I guess I cannot make my cake and eat it too. It is like I either marry a beautiful supper-hot girl but with a bad personality...or...marry an ugly fat chick but with a great personality. Why in the world can't I find a beautiful girl who also has a wonderful personality? Maybe I am asking too much from this sh%ty world.🙁

Correction. A beautiful super-hot girl with wonderful personality exists, and her name is dermpath. Even though in past couple of years she's put on a few pounds (job market is not as good as it used to be), she's still a great catch.

In other words, go into pathology when you are nearly guaranteed or have a very good shot at one of the best fellowships: dermpath anywhere, or GI/GU/Gyn with someone very famous and powerful. Otherwise, forget pathology, go do GAS or rads. There are a lot of specialties out there with little to no patient contact; don't go into specialties with poor job market.

 

[2121115]

correction. A beautiful super-hot girl with wonderful personality exists, and her name is dermpath. Even though in past couple of years she's put on a few pounds (job market is not as good as it used to be), she's still a great catch.

In other words, go into pathology when you are nearly guaranteed or have a very good shot at one of the best fellowships: Dermpath anywhere, or gi/gu/gyn with someone very famous and powerful. Otherwise, forget pathology, go do gas or rads. There are a lot of specialties out there with little to no patient contact; don't go into specialties with poor job market.

lol.

 

[lipomas]

I want a "sure thing" with a good job security...kinda like FM's job security, or at least close to FM's job security.

Sorry man, but there really isn't any such thing as a sure thing. Even in FM you talk about all these jobs but I am sure some portion of them are crappy jobs that either overwork you or undercompensate you. No one is ever going to sit here and guarantee you sucess in pathology. Life is about taking chances. How many times have you switched careers? Just the once? How do you know you aren't going to hate pathology too?

 

[Leukocyte]

Sorry man, but there really isn't any such thing as a sure thing...... No one is ever going to sit here and guarantee you sucess in pathology. Life is about taking chances.

Generally speaking, yes life is about taking chances, and there are no guarantees in life...BUT, the one thing that differentiates Medicine from all other professions is it's well established high level of job security. It is just the nature of this industry. The health care industry, by its nature, is "resession proof". We are in a recession, and the health care industry is still going strong. In fact, many people who are laid-off are now re-training to be nurses, medical techs, and what have you. The reason Medicine and the health care industry has such a high level of job security is because, well, "sh#t ALLWAYS happens" (everyone gets sick). There are ALWAYS sick, smelly, pregnant, depressed, pain-ridden, alcoholic, dependent, overdoseing, obese, diabetic, hypertensive, traumatized........patients. It is a "fail safe" profession the bets on a "sure thing" all the time...that there will always be sick people. Physicians have always experienced great job security. I have never heard of physicians unable to find a job until I came across this Pathology forum. I just cannot believe it. It is rediculous to think that a Pathologist, a physician, has a hard time finding a job...just like an accountant or a computer programmer! I just have never seen this before, and it is very different from my experience in Family Medicine. In Family Medicine, most of the doctors around me do not just find, and work at, one job. They find and work at MULTIPLE jobs. For example, my friend who graduated a class before me last year, he works at his regular full-time job at an out-patient office. In the weekends, he works at the urgent care unit in the ER. He also rotates and works at the county jail medical office on Fridays. He does not have to work 3 jobs, but he wants to while he is still young. He makes well over 250,000 a year, and that is just one year out of residency. You see where I am coming from when I get shocked when people say that there are doctors like Pathologists who are stuggling to find a job. Just unbelievable. Very unfair.

Frankly, I do not know if there is anything unique about Pathology that positioned it in the situation it is in now. But I am not a "stranger" to pathology. I worked in the clinical lab for 4 years. My father was a pathologist. I love looking at things, and making a diagnosis. The reason I did not go into pathology after medical school was because; 1) I did not want to, or was not yet ready, to abandon clinical medicine. 2) My father was a pathologist, and I wanted to be unique and different. 3) I was stupid, and did not really know what I wanted...ignoring the warning signs that screamed "You do not like pt. interaction". Sadly, I had to learn my lesson the hard way.

If I was not utterly miserable in Family Medicine, I would not be thinking of leaving. But every day is a living HELL for me. Many times I though about just walking into my PDs office and quiting...but I forced myself to continue. Why? Because I am afraid of failure. I do not want others to think of me as a quiter or failure. Also I am a very obcessive person. I always had the fear of not finding another residency program if I quit my current program. It was just too risky of a move for my obcessive self. So I took the abuse, second after second. It is horrrible. Horrible. Every time I go to the clinic I get sick to my stomach. Everytime I cover the floor as the in-patient senior resident, I feel I want to throw-up. Everytime I get called to the ER to do an admission, I get angry and I feel my head will explode. Yet I try to hide all these feeling behind a big smile on my face. And each time an ungrateful angry narsistic pt starts yelling at me and my junior intern, I smile, put my head to the ground, and appologize for his frustaration and tell myself that it will be over soon after the end of residency. Eachtime I go to the clinic and see my schedule full with 16 patients, that I have to see in 3 1/2 hours, all of whom are demanding, abusive, and "high-maintinance, I calm myself by saying "it is only a few more months, and I will be done with this residency". I just take the abuse and toture day by day, and the only thing that keeps me going is the promise that I will leave the hell that is called clinical medicine, and go into another, non-clinical, field like Pathology. So it is very disappointing and demoralizing to know about the bad job market in pathology.

So anyways. Thank you all for you input. I am still not sure if I will be going to Pathology or not, but I sure would love to. It is a field that I know I will be happier in, since I know it more than say Radiology or Anesthesia. Like I said I worked in the clinical lab along side pathologists for many years, and my father was one. Taking a chance by going into a field I know less about, like radiology or anesthesiology might be just too risky at this time. But all I can say is that I just do not know were I will end up.

Thanks again, and good luck to all.

 

[lifehouse51]

Hey Leukocyte,

I think the key thing is to be informed about the pros and cons of switching field, which you have been doing. I don't know how many people here have actually done a year or more of clinical medicine residency, but I've done a year and I can relate to a lot of things you mentioned. I was literally dreading to go into the hospital everyday after a while and felt that at clinic my goal was to rush out as many patients quickly as I can or else they're gonna bring out gazillion complaints.

Good luck with your decision, whatever you decide

 

[2121115]

I don't blame you for wanting to quit clinical medicine and I certainly don't blame you for wanting to do pathology. I knew I couldn't stand clinical medicine from the first day of my internal medicine rotation in medical school and I would have never made it 3 years doing that in residency. Also, since your dad is a pathologist you may have some contacts for job placement that most of us don't have so that might mitigate some of the job search nonsense that we all have to deal with.

Just remember that pathology residency isn't the walk in the park that those outside the field sometimes perceive it to be. To do it well at a quality program requires 6 days a week of work and pretty long hours on those days. There are plenty of programs where they struggle with the duty hours requirements and many where CP residents are up all night on call (and don't get the next day off). If you have kids, I think it would be hard to go the next 5-6 years on $45K per year when they are needing to be in good school districts or private schools and the clock is ticking on retirement/college savings and all the while every time an attending gives you "feedback" about your grossing you are thinking "dammit I'm too old for this crap".

Just be sure to weigh the pros and cons. If you have done that and you still want to do pathology, then I say "Welcome to the field!".

 

[pathstudent]

Give me a break. Residency is pretty close to a walk in the park. Most programs have hard surg path months, but still there is the 80/14 hour rules, which programs have to follow or put their accreditation at risk.

Most CP months and autopsy and cytopathology and non-grossing surg path months are all 8-5 at worst.

Since usually only one resident needs to be on a call a night, call is only once every 16-20 nights depending on the call pool, and you only have 50% chance or less of coming in in the middle of the night.

And so what if it is hard, it is only a few years. It is not like doing surgery back in the 80s/90s where you would do 72 hours in house. A Baylor trained surgeon once told me that the SICU rotation at Baylor for surgery residents back in the 80s/90s was one month straight in house. Or like being a medical internal back in the 70s where it was 36 on 12 off for months in a row.

 

[JPR22]

One could coast through path residency working 8-5 M-F, but they may not find themselves in a good position come fellowship/job interview time.

 

[2121115]

Give me a break. Residency is pretty close to a walk in the park. Most programs have hard surg path months, but still there is the 80/14 hour rules, which programs have to follow or put their accreditation at risk... Most CP months and autopsy and cytopathology and non-grossing surg path months are all 8-5 at worst.... Since usually only one resident needs to be on a call a night, call is only once every 16-20 nights depending on the call pool, and you only have 50% chance or less of coming in in the middle of the night.

Ha! At which program are you training? Sounds pretty cush to me. CP, cyto and non-grossing surgpath are 8-5 at worst????? LOL. Only a 50% chance of coming in? It is not the coming in that sucks about CP/blood bank call (actually if you come to do pheresis in the middle of the night then yes it might be the coming in).

Look. No one is saying that pathology residency is like training in surgery back in the 80's or whatever. But it is not the walk in the park that it is perceived to be by our clinical colleagues.

 

[pathstudent]

Ha! At which program are you training? Sounds pretty cush to me. CP, cyto and non-grossing surgpath are 8-5 at worst????? LOL. Only a 50% chance of coming in? It is not the coming in that sucks about CP/blood bank call (actually if you come to do pheresis in the middle of the night then yes it might be the coming in).

Look. No one is saying that pathology residency is like training in surgery back in the 80's or whatever. But it is not the walk in the park that it is perceived to be by our clinical colleagues.

I pity you if you are required to be present greater than 8-5 if on chemistry, microbiology, informatics, molecular, hematology, blood bank, dermpathaology, gi biopsy, cytology, or autopsy. It is not that your program isn't cush. It sounds like a nightmare full of busywork if you are putting in 12-14 hour days on chemistry or micro. What the hell is there to do?

 

[oldfatman]

Read surg path. Read more surg path. You cannot know too much surg path.

 

[oldfatman]

Read surg path. Read more surg path. You cannot know too much surg path.

Grow more surg path related synapses in your brain.

 

[yaah]

Physicians have always experienced great job security. I have never heard of physicians unable to find a job until I came across this Pathology forum. I just cannot believe it. It is rediculous to think that a Pathologist, a physician, has a hard time finding a job...just like an accountant or a computer programmer!

Let's not go nuts here. Unemployment in pathology is still very uncommon. Most unemployed paths are unemployed for similar reasons as to why physicians in other fields are unemployed. Personal problems, legal problems, personal choice, etc. Just because the job market is more challenging than other fields does not mean it's like trying to find a job as a consultant. We have had these job market threads for a long time here and we have had very few actual unemployed pathologists posting here. We have had a couple of posters who have created alternate accounts and said they were unemployed, and we have had people post about people they know who are unemployed. And you would think that with all the time unemployed pathologists would have that they would flock here. But they don't.

But still, for whatever the deficiencies and weaknesses in the path job market finding a job if you are flexible and open is not the main problem. The main problem is finding a job that suits you in the location you want to be in. But this is a huge problem all throughout medicine and is a reason why physicians often change jobs multiple times in their first 10 years of practice. Anyone who tells you these problems are unique to pathology is seriously delusional.

No one can tell you what to do - but you have to be realistic about things. Just because people come on here and post "the job market sucks" does not mean you won't be able to find a job. Particularly if you are an american graduate and you can communicate decently. But just because you think pathology is going to be the panacea for your career path also does not mean it is going to be. To be honest, a lot of your posts make it sound like you are grasping at straws, hoping pathology is going to be your magical ticket to happiness.

 

[lifehouse51]

Just remember that pathology residency isn't the walk in the park that those outside the field sometimes perceive it to be. To do it well at a quality program requires 6 days a week of work and pretty long hours on those days. There are plenty of programs where they struggle with the duty hours requirements and many where CP residents are up all night on call (and don't get the next day off). If you have kids, I think it would be hard to go the next 5-6 years on $45K per year when they are needing to be in good school districts or private schools and the clock is ticking on retirement/college savings and all the while every time an attending gives you "feedback" about your grossing you are thinking "dammit I'm too old for this crap".

CP calls won't be a walk in the park, but if you have done Medicine or surgery calls then you'll know how brutal they can be. Imagine you're admitting your 5 new patients, following up on your old patients' stuff, and covering for hundreds of patients with dozens sheets of sign-outs from others. The pages come in waves, your pager can go off with 3-5 pages within a minute...before you can finish returning the pages, your pager goes off again because people got impatient waiting and repage you again. I think my record was getting close to 200 pages in a night.

At the end of the night I was like screw the H&P for the new patients, I can't even remember clearly why the patients were admitted.

 

[pathstudent]

CP calls won't be a walk in the park.

GIve me a break. Maybe you get called a couple times at home.

 

[deleted314957]

GIve me a break. Maybe you get called a couple times at home.

I really have to go along with pathstudent . My residency (81-85) was pretty much a 7:30 to 4:30 or 5 in the worst cases and most clin path was easier. There was a lot of self-time study though after hours. And for the record I DO know what a tough PGY experience is like- a rotating surgical internship (late 70'S) with the 36 on 12 off crap or when it slacked off a little, every 3rd nite. And a forensic fellowship (86) (Baltimore/AFIP) was like banker's hours.

 

[pathologic]

You could do a nuclear medicine res. I think they are only 2 yrs. They have the worst job market in med but you could always get lucky.

 

[GOLJANOID]

Awesome thread. I'm a soon to be 4th year medical student and I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE MANY Aspects of clinical medicine. However, I always wondered if I went into pathology if there would be any point where I would miss patient interaction. With the job market horror stories polluting this forum, my doubts only intensified. It's good to hear the experience from someone on the other end of the spectrum. This DEFINITELY reaffirms my commitment to choosing pathology as a specialty!

 

[exPCM]

Awesome thread. I'm a soon to be 4th year medical student and I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE MANY Aspects of clinical medicine. However, I always wondered if I went into pathology if there would be any point where I would miss patient interaction. With the job market horror stories polluting this forum, my doubts only intensified. It's good to hear the experience from someone on the other end of the spectrum. This DEFINITELY reaffirms my commitment to choosing pathology as a specialty!

I assume your username is based on Dr. Goljan - an individual who does zero clinical or surgical pathology work and spends 100% of his time teaching and working on introductory pathology books. Not a great role model for a potential real world pathologist IMO.

Again there are many without any job offers as confirmed by the RISE survey. Yaah states "Most unemployed paths are unemployed for similar reasons as to why physicians in other fields are unemployed. Personal problems, legal problems, personal choice, etc." IMO I recommend that unemployed pathologists contact yaah so he can tell you why you are unemployed.

 

[GOLJANOID]

I assume your username is based on Dr. Goljan - an individual who does zero clinical or surgical pathology work and spends 100% of his time teaching and working on introductory pathology books. Not a great role model for a potential real world pathologist IMO.

Come on now. See that cup as half full, Dr.! A role model as far as being a big shot in the field? Perhaps not. But as far as his humor, wit, and personality for a field stereotyped as full of socially inept weirdos? Absolutely!

At least pathology has SOMEONE to remind med students the field isn't a monolith of geekdom that practically everyone not in the field believes it to be. Pathology's very own celebrity, if you will. I would think other pathologists would be PROUD at the thought that he may be unknowingly inspiring a legion of Goljanoids to consider it as a profession 👍

 

[oldfatman]

Come on now. See that cup as half full, Dr.! A role model as far as being a big shot in the field? Perhaps not. But as far as his humor, wit, and personality for a field stereotyped as full of socially inept weirdos? Absolutely! 👍

Goljan who? If you want to be someone, be Rosai. Or Stacey "Chuck" Mills. I saw Rosai speak once on thyroid follicular neoplasms. Very enjoyable, but too much splitting.

As for being a field of socially inept weirdos...you will be assimilated.

 

[exPCM]

Come on now. See that cup as half full, Dr.! A role model as far as being a big shot in the field? Perhaps not. But as far as his humor, wit, and personality for a field stereotyped as full of socially inept weirdos? Absolutely!

At least pathology has SOMEONE to remind med students the field isn't a monolith of geekdom that practically everyone not in the field believes it to be. Pathology's very own celebrity, if you will. I would think other pathologists would be PROUD at the thought that he may be unknowingly inspiring a legion of Goljanoids to consider it as a profession 👍

Ok. Fine - I see your point.

Goljan who? If you want to be someone, be Rosai. Or Stacey "Chuck" Mills. I saw Rosai speak once on thyroid follicular neoplasms. Very enjoyable, but too much splitting.

As for being a field of socially inept weirdos...you will be assimilated.

I personally like the idea better of aspiring to be a real world pathologist like Rosai or Mills.

 

[yaah]

Again there are many without any job offers as confirmed by the RISE survey. Yaah states "Most unemployed paths are unemployed for similar reasons as to why physicians in other fields are unemployed. Personal problems, legal problems, personal choice, etc." IMO I recommend that unemployed pathologists contact yaah so he can tell you why you are unemployed.

Hey man, I have been posting here for several years asking for real unemployed pathologists to come on here and post. There may have been an occasional post (offhand I cannot remember a serious one though), but most of these such posts have unfortunately been from users creating alternate accounts and are not really unemployed pathologists. We have had some people posting about being WORRIED about being unemployed, or people doing multiple fellowships before actively looking for a job because they are worried about the market, but that's not the same thing.

Once again you are twisting my words, however. I am not denying there are unemployed pathologists.

I would think that unemployed pathologists would have time to come on here and post, explain their situation, why they think they are unemployed, answer questions, etc. But that isn't happening. Maybe you can encourage them to post. Contacting me personally is not a productive idea, to be honest.

 

[exPCM]

Once again you are twisting my words, however. I am not denying there are unemployed pathologists.

I believe I quoted you verbatim in my post. I do not feel I have twisted your words.

How many unemployed physicians do think want to come to this website and give out details regarding their lack of a job?

 

[yaah]

I believe I quoted you verbatim in my post. I do not feel I have twisted your words.

How many unemployed physicians do think want to come to this website and give out details regarding their lack of a job?

No, you consistently twist my words. You take my comment about how most unemployed pathologists are likely unemployed for the same reasons that most other physicians in other specialties are unemployed and imply that I think all unemployed pathologists have something wrong with them. That is false. Have you met a lot of unemployed physicians? I have. Many have struggled with drug addictions. Many are unemployed by choice (because they are caring for children, they hate medicine, whatever the reason). Some just can't practice medicine. It's a simple matter of logic than in a population as large as the population of physicians in this country, there are going to be quite a few people who either choose to not work after weighing their options or just cannot hack it. Note that this does not imply that all unemployed are like this. Pathologists who cannot find work and are qualified and have no reason to not work - I find this situation as unaacceptable as you do.

As far as your latter comment, all I can respond is 🙄 Give me a break. That's the best you can come up with?

 

[mm008m]

So, the answer here may be to get into a residency program that has consistently produced pathologists that get jobs after going through THEIR residency program. You would have to ask around for that info on each program, but I bet that if their grads get jobs, then so will you.
This is logical, no??

 

[Euchromatin]

So, the answer here may be to get into a residency program that has consistently produced pathologists that get jobs after going through THEIR residency program. You would have to ask around for that info on each program, but I bet that if their grads get jobs, then so will you.
This is logical, no??

I also thought this was the most logical thing to ask during residency program interviews, but, sadly I rarely got straight answers from PDs or current residents. Most programs are more than happy to advertise where their grads went for fellowship, but out of all the places I interviewed, only one actually gave me a list of exactly where each recent grad was practicing (they also listed where and what specialty fellowships each person did as well). I couldn't really tell if the PDs were deliberately trying to be evasive to hide flaws or if they didn't think it was actually a serious concern of candidates or if they just didn't keep track of their grads after fellowships and genuinely didn't know.