Very interesting table on Sep. 5 JAMA

[Shinken]

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In the latest issue of JAMA on page 1089 there is a table titled "Citizenship status of international medical graduates with no prior US Graduate Medical Education in the first year of GME on duty December 1, 2006".

According to the table, the vast majority of US citizen IMGs are concentrated in the specialties of Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and General Surgery. In specialties such as neurosurgery, ENT and diagnostic radiology there were zero US citizen IMGs last year. In orthopedic surgery there were only 4, and in anesthesiology only 11.

Interesting point #1: As said many times in this forum, a foreign degree for a US citizen is not a bad idea as long as primary care is the main goal.

Interesting point #2: According to the match lists of the most popular Caribbean med schools, there are several matches every year on specialties such as Orthopedics, neurosurgery and the like. Yet this table is in direct contradiction to that (At least for last year. We can only assume it's similar for other years).

Anybody else seen the table? What do you think? I was actually rather shocked by the numbers.

 

[Pansit]

In the latest issue of JAMA on page 1089 there is a table titled "Citizenship status of international medical graduates with no prior US Graduate Medical Education in the first year of GME on duty December 1, 2006".

According to the table, the vast majority of US citizen IMGs are concentrated in the specialties of Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and General Surgery. In specialties such as neurosurgery, ENT and diagnostic radiology there were zero US citizen IMGs last year. In orthopedic surgery there were only 4, and in anesthesiology only 11.

Interesting point #1: As said many times in this forum, a foreign degree for a US citizen is not a bad idea as long as primary care is the main goal.

Interesting point #2: According to the match lists of the most popular Caribbean med schools, there are several matches every year on specialties such as Orthopedics, neurosurgery and the like. Yet this table is in direct contradiction to that (At least for last year. We can only assume it's similar for other years).

Anybody else seen the table? What do you think? I was actually rather shocked by the numbers.

No US citizen IMG's so maybe they were from other countries...

 

[oldpro]

No I'm not shocked and really I think it says what I do, competitive residencies are harder, but I have to ask, whats JAMA's source for the Matches and What is the criteria for US IMG? There are a lot of Indian students for example, who have dual citizenship and at times do not claim to be a US citizen for one reason or another, or who have green cards for the US and have been in the USA since they were a toddler and are basically US students all the way but are not citizens and go to Caribbean schools, From what I have seen Indians and Pakistanies make up 30 to 40% of the student body along with other Nationalities, so what is the make up of this study?

ALSO I need to say this

Just because Medical students may not want to be surgeons, I do not, Does not make this a bad choice, I'm equal to a US graduate.

 

[Shinken]

No US citizen IMG's so maybe they were from other countries...

Well, of course. But the point is that the Carib schools are pretty much full of US citizens, yet they're not snatching the competitive spots, foreign graduates are. I just found that interesting since I figured that perhaps programs would rather have US citizens, but apparently that's not always the case.

 

[oldpro]

Well, of course. But the point is that the Carib schools are pretty much full of US citizens, yet they're not snatching the competitive spots, foreign graduates are. I just found that interesting since I figured that perhaps programs would rather have US citizens, but apparently that's not always the case.

could it be the Step one scores? I know a lot of FMG's that have excellent scores since they have practiced before, when Caribbean have not yet.

I really do not read too much into this as some do....................😴

 

[Shinken]

could it be the Step one scores? I know a lot of FMG's that have excellent scores since they have practiced before, when Caribbean have not yet.

I really do not read too much into this as some do....................😴

I really fail to see a correlation between Step one and having practiced before. As a matter of fact, people that are out in practice typically score horribly on Step one unless they study all the biomedical science details that are forgotten after the pre-clinical years.

For people that want to do primary care, the numbers aren't bad at all. But as I stated in my original message, for those that want something other than primary care, those ACGME numbers are alarming. Also, it's obvious the Caribbean schools are either exaggerating or outright lying with their match lists according to the ACGME table.

I wanted to see if someone out there had an answer to why the discrepancy between match lists and ACGME stats, but if you guys don't care that's fine.

Also, oldpro, I agree with you that Caribbean grads that make it are equal to US grads. However, if program directors don't agree with you and I, that's relevant, isn't it? The ACGME table apparently shows that program directors don't share our opinion.

 

[bulletproof]

In the latest issue of JAMA on page 1089 there is a table titled "Citizenship status of international medical graduates with no prior US Graduate Medical Education in the first year of GME on duty December 1, 2006".

According to the table, the vast majority of US citizen IMGs are concentrated in the specialties of Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and General Surgery. In specialties such as neurosurgery, ENT and diagnostic radiology there were zero US citizen IMGs last year. In orthopedic surgery there were only 4, and in anesthesiology only 11.

Interesting point #1: As said many times in this forum, a foreign degree for a US citizen is not a bad idea as long as primary care is the main goal.

Interesting point #2: According to the match lists of the most popular Caribbean med schools, there are several matches every year on specialties such as Orthopedics, neurosurgery and the like. Yet this table is in direct contradiction to that (At least for last year. We can only assume it's similar for other years).

Anybody else seen the table? What do you think? I was actually rather shocked by the numbers.

I don't understand how the article arrived at the conclusion that only 11 US citizen IMGs were in anesthesiology and that there were 0 in diagnostic radiology. As you correctly point out, the match lists tell a different story. From Ross alone, we had 5 people match into Rads last year, and I think there were, like 6 from SGU. There were also a good number (10+) from both schools accepted into Anesthesiology residencies.

Do you have a link or can you explain how they defined selection criteria or defined the term "US citizen IMG"?


I think in the absence of defining criteria and the like, the utility of the results of the study is limited . And while I think everyone agrees that there are a disproportionatly large number of carib. grads in primary care fields, this study seems to suggest that this is essentially the only option. According to this link, as of december 1st 2006, there were at least 11 ross grads in the first year of anesthesiology GRE training and 3 Ross grads in the first year of Radiology GRE training: http://www.rossu.edu/med/whyross/residency2006.cfm. These folks would have been halfway through their prelim. years at the time of the study.

Even more impressive is the 2005 match list which clearly shows 6 matches into Radiology and 19 into Anesthesiology:http://www.rossu.edu/med/whyross/residency2005.cfm These folks would have been halfway their their 1st year categorical at the time of the study.

At least according to what you posted, based on pure numbers alone, it would seem many of these individuals were not included in the study, at least not under the term "US citizen IMG". As far as I'm concerned, the ability to match these specialities from the School is what is important, not the citizenship status of those who matched into the field.

 

[oldpro]

I really fail to see a correlation between Step one and having practiced before. As a matter of fact, people that are out in practice typically score horribly on Step one unless they study all the biomedical science details that are forgotten after the pre-clinical years.

For people that want to do primary care, the numbers aren't bad at all. But as I stated in my original message, for those that want something other than primary care, those ACGME numbers are alarming. Also, it's obvious the Caribbean schools are either exaggerating or outright lying with their match lists according to the ACGME table.

I wanted to see if someone out there had an answer to why the discrepancy between match lists and ACGME stats, but if you guys don't care that's fine.

Also, oldpro, I agree with you that Caribbean grads that make it are equal to US grads. However, if program directors don't agree with you and I, that's relevant, isn't it? The ACGME table apparently shows that program directors don't share our opinion.

Many Caribbean grads Match outside the ACGME Match game so how does that correlate as well? After the above post I really question the numbers and as we know at times these stats can be biased.

There are also a number of program Directors from the Caribbean or FMG now, not all are US grads as before times have changed.

I also will admit that this really does not affect me much since I'm going into FP.

 

[lobelsteve]

It can hurt the reputation of a program to "Match" a USIMG or FMG and if they want these candidates they get them outside the match.

THis is a good explanation of why there are USIMG's in residencies of all types and the chart in JAMA can reflect there are none that mathced.

An explanation, but probably not correct.

Anyone want to write JAMA and get the scoop?

 

[McGillGrad]

Anyone want to write JAMA and get the scoop?

Their methodology should be published with the findings. We should all have access to the journal online.

 

[oldpro]

It can hurt the reputation of a program to "Match" a USIMG or FMG and if they want these candidates they get them outside the match.

THis is a good explanation of why there are USIMG's in residencies of all types and the chart in JAMA can reflect there are none that mathced.

An explanation, but probably not correct.

Anyone want to write JAMA and get the scoop?

Yes I understand Yet there seems to be a problem since Grads from Caribbean schools say one thing and the Article says different.

What is the truth? Not everything in print is true all the time.

 

[McGillGrad]

If the Carib schools cannot get all of the grads to report their matches, then why would an anti-Carib organization such as JAMA dig further to get the truth? JAMA wants the Carib to look as rotten as Cheney's senese of right and wrong.

Yes I understand Yet there seems to be a problem since Grads from Caribbean schools say one thing and the Article says different.

What is the truth? Not everything in print is true all the time.

 

[oldpro]

If the Carib schools cannot get all of the grads to report their matches, then why would an anti-Carib organization such as JAMA dig further to get the truth? JAMA wants the Carib to look as rotten as Cheney's senese of right and wrong.

So we are saying that JAMA is biased and wants to publish info that is bent one way? I do not doubt it, I think there are people who are less educated on the rest of the world and medical education enough to base opinions on bad information. Thats been some of the reaction by some of the older Physicians here when they found out I was a Caribbean student but also I have met 3 older physicians from the caribbean along with FMG docs

 

[lobelsteve]

SGU has 15 going into Anes in 2006.

Also noted NS, Derm, a few Optho, ENT, a bunch of ER and Rads.

 

[Shinken]

The table appeared in the latest issue of JAMA devoted to medical education. You know, the issue that comes out once every year with all sorts of tables and statistics. It's not really a "study" per se but a reporting by the ACGME on several different stats, one of them being the table that reports the citizenship status of the IMG trainees at those specialties. Whether they matched via ERAS or signed outside the match they would still be listed (I think).

The table doesn't say where the students are from (Caribbean, India, etc.) but simply whether the IMGs are US citizens, Green Card holders, foreign nationals, etc. It caught my eye because I think it's safe to assume most people coming from the Caribbean are US citizens, right? Perhaps that's where I'm wrong.

Hasn't anyone seen that table? I would hope that JAMA and the ACGME would report accurate information, but then again...

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I believe you are misreading the tables, or have inaccurate information.

First of all, the source of the data is the National GME Census. Each program reports to the AMA / AAMC the status of all of their residents in training. They get >98% capture of the data, and thus these data are very accurate and include all match and pre-match residents in training.

It is well beyond my ability to quote all of the data, and it's a copyright violation to post the tables (so please don't ask). But I can try to address a few of your concerns.

First, your quote results from the following table (turns out it's table 5)

Citizenship status of international medical graduates with no prior US Graduate Medical Education in the first year of GME on duty December 1, 2006

Note the bolded statement. That's why anesthesia's numbers look so poor - because many anesthesia programs start in the PGY-2 year and hence would not be counted here. In general, PGY-1 anesthesia programs are more competitive, so it's no surprise that they are preferentially filled with US grads. It also explains rads which is also a PGY-2 match.

In Table 2, we discover that there are 4970 anesthesia residents currently in training, 735 (14.8%) of which are IMG's. This seems to fit with the reported match data from SGU and Ross.

IMG stats for other competitive specialties are as follows:
Program % of residents currently in training who are IMG's:
Ortho 2.3%
Neurosurg 10.4%
Rads 6.5%
ENT 2.8%
Gen Surg 19.1%

The breakdown of carib vs other is only available for the PGY-1 matches and hence is not very helpful for this discussion.

You might find the NRMP's match data tables very interesting to look at also, especially the one labeled "Results by state, specialty, and applicant type". This actually shows you how each individual program matched, including what type of IMG (US IMG vs IMG).

Now, a question for all of you. The data tables everyone is questioning are published in JAMA. Many of you are enrolled in medical school. Please, please tell me that they have a library where you could look at JAMA? Even an electronic library subscription would allow you to download and read the paper / tables for yourselves (like I just did). I am seriously hoping that your schools are not too cheap / foolish not to have a basic medical library.

 

[Shinken]

Note the bolded statement. That's why anesthesia's numbers look so poor - because many anesthesia programs start in the PGY-2 year and hence would not be counted here. In general, PGY-1 anesthesia programs are more competitive, so it's no surprise that they are preferentially filled with US grads. It also explains rads which is also a PGY-2 match.

Ahhh, there you have it. Thank you. Mystery solved.

Now, a question for all of you. The data tables everyone is questioning are published in JAMA. Many of you are enrolled in medical school. Please, please tell me that they have a library where you could look at JAMA? Even an electronic library subscription would allow you to download and read the paper / tables for yourselves (like I just did). I am seriously hoping that your schools are not too cheap / foolish not to have a basic medical library.

Yes, my school's library (and my base hospital) has JAMA and many other journals. I also have a free subscription due to the fact that I'm a med student.

By the way, please bring back your Darth Maul avatar. It was much, much better.

 

[oldpro]

In the latest issue of JAMA on page 1089 there is a table titled "Citizenship status of international medical graduates with no prior US Graduate Medical Education in the first year of GME on duty December 1, 2006".


Interesting point #2: According to the match lists of the most popular Caribbean med schools, there are several matches every year on specialties such as Orthopedics, neurosurgery and the like. Yet this table is in direct contradiction to that (At least for last year. We can only assume it's similar for other years).

IMG stats for other competitive specialties are as follows:
Program % of residents currently in training who are IMG's:
Ortho 2.3%
Neurosurg 10.4%
Rads 6.5%
ENT 2.8%
Gen Surg 19.1%

This is in direct Contradiction to this first post,

SHinken, You once posted that incorrect information was being posted on these forums ( iread through your old posts to remind myself of your posts), yet you do it and seems to be a smear on Caribbean grads, if not then why post it in the Caribbean forum?

Look in some weird way you may think you are helping people? But who really?

I and others realize that many students who go to Caribbean schools may be qualified for US schools but due to the Competitiveness just can't gain acceptance in that case the Caribbean is viable option, Like it or not.

If we are to post information like this lets please have an understanding of it.

It's not really a "study" per se but a reporting by the ACGME on several different stats, one of them being the table that reports the citizenship status of the IMG trainees at those specialties. Whether they matched via ERAS or signed outside the match they would still be listed (I think).

The table doesn't say where the students are from (Caribbean, India, etc.) but simply whether the IMGs are US citizens, Green Card holders, foreign nationals, etc. It caught my eye because I think it's safe to assume most people coming from the Caribbean are US citizens, right? Perhaps that's where I'm wrong.

This makes me think you jumped to post something you may not have understood and thought it was negative for Caribbean students? 😕

 

[Shinken]

This is in direct Contradiction to this first post,

SHinken, You once posted that incorrect information was being posted on these forums ( iread through your old posts to remind myself of your posts), yet you do it and seems to be a smear on Caribbean grads, if not then why post it in the Caribbean forum?

Look in some weird way you may think you are helping people? But who really?

I and others realize that many students who go to Caribbean schools may be qualified for US schools but due to the Competitiveness just can't gain acceptance in that case the Caribbean is viable option, Like it or not.

If we are to post information like this lets please have an understanding of it.



This makes me think you jumped to post something you may not have understood and thought it was negative for Caribbean students? 😕

A little defensive aren't we? I simply wanted someone to explain the discrepancy. Were the numbers innacurate? Were the schools lying? Someone knowledgeable answered my question. We're done here.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Yes, my school's library (and my base hospital) has JAMA and many other journals. I also have a free subscription due to the fact that I'm a med student.

By the way, please bring back your Darth Maul avatar. It was much, much better.

You had me worried for a moment.

Scorpius (new avatar, from Farscape) is my hero. I think I will stick with him for awhile. Sad that when you switch avatars, it switches for all your previous posts also. Ah well.

 

[oldpro]

A little defensive aren't we? I simply wanted someone to explain the discrepancy. Were the numbers innacurate? Were the schools lying? Someone knowledgeable answered my question. We're done here.

No not defensive, thats what you want to spin since you got caught trying to muddy the waters here, thats what I think, You see after years of reading threads here it seems every so often someone thinks they have found something really negative about the Caribbean and wants to post it and make people upset, I will always question such posts since historically they have been wrong in one way or another.

Good try to spin didn't work this time.😉

 

[McGillGrad]

I agree with you. Why would a non-Carib student care about this?

Unless of course, the same person posts positive things, too. But this is not the case, so too bad that someone could not make himself feel better without putting others down.

I could just as easily paint a slight majority of US med students as boring, nerdy, anti-social geeks who had nothing better to do than study in university. That would be unfair, and even though it is probably true, I don't post it on the boards to make myself feel better.

No not defensive, thats what you want to spin since you got caught trying to muddy the waters here, thats what I think, You see after years of reading threads here it seems every so often someone thinks they have found something really negative about the Caribbean and wants to post it and make people upset, I will always question such posts since historically they have been wrong in one way or another.

Good try to spin didn't work this time.😉

 

[bulletproof]

I believe you are misreading the tables, or have inaccurate information.

First of all, the source of the data is the National GME Census. Each program reports to the AMA / AAMC the status of all of their residents in training. They get >98% capture of the data, and thus these data are very accurate and include all match and pre-match residents in training.

It is well beyond my ability to quote all of the data, and it's a copyright violation to post the tables (so please don't ask). But I can try to address a few of your concerns.

First, your quote results from the following table (turns out it's table 5)


Note the bolded statement. That's why anesthesia's numbers look so poor - because many anesthesia programs start in the PGY-2 year and hence would not be counted here. In general, PGY-1 anesthesia programs are more competitive, so it's no surprise that they are preferentially filled with US grads. It also explains rads which is also a PGY-2 match.

In Table 2, we discover that there are 4970 anesthesia residents currently in training, 735 (14.8%) of which are IMG's. This seems to fit with the reported match data from SGU and Ross.

IMG stats for other competitive specialties are as follows:
Program % of residents currently in training who are IMG's:
Ortho 2.3%
Neurosurg 10.4%
Rads 6.5%
ENT 2.8%
Gen Surg 19.1%

The breakdown of carib vs other is only available for the PGY-1 matches and hence is not very helpful for this discussion.

You might find the NRMP's match data tables very interesting to look at also, especially the one labeled "Results by state, specialty, and applicant type". This actually shows you how each individual program matched, including what type of IMG (US IMG vs IMG).

Now, a question for all of you. The data tables everyone is questioning are published in JAMA. Many of you are enrolled in medical school. Please, please tell me that they have a library where you could look at JAMA? Even an electronic library subscription would allow you to download and read the paper / tables for yourselves (like I just did). I am seriously hoping that your schools are not too cheap / foolish not to have a basic medical library.

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I suspected that the prelim. year may have had something to do with the numbers looking funny.Damned Ockhams razor!

And Yes, as a student I had access to JAMA at our school and in the libraries of our hospitals. Thankfully, I no longer have access to either.😀

 

[oldpro]

ALSO I've grown a little hostile as time has gone on,

Look I think anything REAL and FACTUAL should be posted as to help others

But to make something seem worse or even like it's a disaster when it's not is like Political SPIN! I hate political spin it makes it so hard to understand the true situation and Doctors are supposed to above all this (LOL).

We never say the Caribbean is the best way, (All of the US premeds and some US medstudents make sure we do).

But being a FMG is far from a disaster and will remain a way that some become Physicians (Like it or not).

In fact students that post negative spin against Caribbean/FMG's Medical students are in fact BIGOTS, yes thats a bad word I thought.

I Hate any kind of prejudice in this light, Color or station in life, or where you go to school, its wrong and should not be tolerated.

So defensive no, will point out Bigots, yes.

IMO Hate is just plain wrong.....................

I agree with you. Why would a non-Carib student care about this?

Unless of course, the same person posts positive things, too. But this is not the case, so too bad that someone could not make himself feel better without putting others down.

I could just as easily paint a slight majority of US med students as boring, nerdy, anti-social geeks who had nothing better to do than study in university. That would be unfair, and even though it is probably true, I don't post it on the boards to make myself feel better.

 

[Faebinder]

Just a note to everyone...

The latest residency statistics of 2007 shows that the ODDs ratio of an IMG/FMG getting into residency depends HIGHLY (and highest of all factors) on step 2.

Notoriously... non-carribean grads who have been in practice in other countries for several years will do much much better than the carribean grads who barely have any experience. Experience matters A LOT for step 2. At least they walk into it having seen the disease on the wards multiple times. Learning the latest "western" test done in the US is just a matter of adding the cherry to the cake.

 

[bulletproof]

Just a note to everyone...

The latest residency statistics of 2007 shows that the ODDs ratio of an IMG/FMG getting into residency depends HIGHLY (and highest of all factors) on step 2.

Notoriously... non-carribean grads who have been in practice in other countries for several years will do much much better than the carribean grads who barely have any experience. Experience matters A LOT for step 2. At least they walk into it having seen the disease on the wards multiple times. Learning the latest "western" test done in the US is just a matter of adding the cherry to the cake.

I would love to believe this is the case. As for experience, yeah, I think those with more clinical experience will tend to do better as a group. However, plenty of folks nail a 90+ on the step II after 3rd year with a little USMLEworld. It is an easier exam than step I, all things considered.

And while a good performance on step II is essential for FMGs/IMGs, in the absence of requisite step I cut-offs for programs it is useless.

 

[Faebinder]

I would love to believe this is the case. As for experience, yeah, I think those with more clinical experience will tend to do better as a group. However, plenty of folks nail a 90+ on the step II after 3rd year with a little USMLEworld. It is an easier exam than step I, all things considered.

And while a good performance on step II is essential for FMGs/IMGs, in the absence of requisite step I cut-offs for programs it is useless.

Why are you at such disbelief that step II is actually more critical for FMG/IMGs than step I? I would love for this to be not true but evidence so far shows the opposte. The match statistics are pretty clear + if you go around sifting through criteria for IM and FM websites, many will set a higher criteria for step II (higher score or less number of attempts). Most of course dont bother to make that distinction cause they dont want to remember two different criterias probably, but you will find some that want better Step II. They don't care that your basic science is good, they can make you look it up when necessary.

 

[Faebinder]

Here is a quote for example...

The Family Medicine Residency Program at Middlesex Hospital welcomes
applications from U.S. and international students and graduates. All
applications must be received through the ERAS system. Interviews will
be
offered to selected applicants after faculty review. The deadline for
ERAS
applications is December 31.

All applicants must meet the following criteria:
* Commitment to complete a 4 year residency in family medicine at
Middlesex Hospital
* Current medical school good standing or graduation within the past 5
years
* Passage of USMLE or COMLEX Steps 1 and 2 prior to entering residency
with no more than 1 Step 1 failure and no Step 2 failures.
* U.S. Citizenship or Permanent Resident status. We do not sponsor
visas of any type.

Applicants from international medical schools not accredited by the
Liaison
Committee on Medical Education (LCME) must meet the following
additional
requirements:
* Attendance at a medical school recognized by the Medical Board of
California
* ECFMG Certification unless in the final year of medical school
* US clinical experience

Please note that our Program Criteria is also on our website.

Best wishes in your future endeavors.

 

[Shah_Patel_PT]

Here is a quote for example...

The Family Medicine Residency Program at Middlesex Hospital welcomes
applications from U.S. and international students and graduates. All
applications must be received through the ERAS system. Interviews will
be
offered to selected applicants after faculty review. The deadline for
ERAS
applications is December 31.

All applicants must meet the following criteria:
* Commitment to complete a 4 year residency in family medicine at
Middlesex Hospital
* Current medical school good standing or graduation within the past 5
years
* Passage of USMLE or COMLEX Steps 1 and 2 prior to entering residency
with no more than 1 Step 1 failure and no Step 2 failures.
* U.S. Citizenship or Permanent Resident status. We do not sponsor
visas of any type.

Applicants from international medical schools not accredited by the
Liaison
Committee on Medical Education (LCME) must meet the following
additional
requirements:
* Attendance at a medical school recognized by the Medical Board of
California
* ECFMG Certification unless in the final year of medical school
* US clinical experience

Please note that our Program Criteria is also on our website.

Best wishes in your future endeavors.

If you look at it that way....I can bet you...that program directors look for US clinical experience (which Carib IMGs have) much more than an IMG with a Step 2 score of 95+ (lacking any idea of the US health system) vs. a carib IMG with high 80s.

 

[Faebinder]

If you look at it that way....I can bet you...that program directors look for US clinical experience (which Carib IMGs have) much more than an IMG with a Step 2 score of 95+ (lacking any idea of the US health system) vs. a carib IMG with high 80s.

Most program directors use a screening program provided by ERAS called "ERAS Program Director Workstations" aka "PDWS" that filters by different catagories. Most will use Step 1 and Step 2 as their first step filters. The things that get you interviews you can't change after getting them: USMLE steps scores + attempts, where you went to medical school, medical school grades, year you graduated. The things that help you on an interview are modifiable and include your personal statement, LoRs, publications, work experience etc etc.

So your statement is correct if the minimum criteria on the PDWS for interview is set low and both candidates got interviews at the program.... but it wont be true if the first candidate (the carib IMG) didn't get an interview to begin with.

 

[bulletproof]

Why are you at such disbelief that step II is actually more critical for FMG/IMGs than step I? I would love for this to be not true but evidence so far shows the opposte. The match statistics are pretty clear + if you go around sifting through criteria for IM and FM websites, many will set a higher criteria for step II (higher score or less number of attempts). Most of course dont bother to make that distinction cause they dont want to remember two different criterias probably, but you will find some that want better Step II. They don't care that your basic science is good, they can make you look it up when necessary.

It would work out great for me in fact as I have a higher step II than a step I. In the field I am applying to ( not IM, FP, peds, pysch, surgery, ob/gyn), step I is indeed more important than a step II. I guess I replied with that in mind.

 

[avyy]

not everyone from the US who goes to the carb. is a US citizen. You can also be a perm. resident instead of a citizen and thats fine with the schools.

 

[oldpro]

Can't we just let this die?😕

 

[McGillGrad]

Can't we just let this die?😕

You avatar is so perfect for this board🙂

 

[Shinken]

I agree with you. Why would a non-Carib student care about this?

Because some of us read medical journals with a critical mind and when we find something that appears grossly innacurate we try to seek the answer? And when that grossly innacurate thing deals with Caribbean schools a good place to post the question is the Caribbean forum?

I know it's hard to believe, but I didn't start this thread with bad intentions. In the end, who cares? Your defensiveness and lack of self-esteem make me smile (as a DO student, I can appreciate a group of med students that are more defensive than we are as a group).

Perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) our critical thinking and inquiring mind is what landed us a spot in a US medical school to begin with. You see, I read JAMA and other journals in my spare time, believe it or not.

And in case you were wondering, yes, I posted this reply to bump the thread.

Finally, if you're looking for consistently antagonistic, negative comments from posters in the Caribbean forum, they're not from me. I'll leave it up to you to decide who I'm talking about. 😉

Enjoy. I'm outta here...

 

[McGillGrad]

Weak response. Why do DOs have no self-esteem when it comes to your degree? Have some confidence in your degree! I promise that MD's won't laugh at you when people ask why they sent you instead of a real doctor.

Because some of us read medical journals with a critical mind and when we find something that appears grossly innacurate we try to seek the answer? And when that grossly innacurate thing deals with Caribbean schools a good place to post the question is the Caribbean forum?

I know it's hard to believe, but I didn't start this thread with bad intentions. In the end, who cares? Your defensiveness and lack of self-esteem make me smile (as a DO student, I can appreciate a group of med students that are more defensive than we are as a group).

Perhaps (and this is a big perhaps) our critical thinking and inquiring mind is what landed us a spot in a US medical school to begin with. You see, I read JAMA and other journals in my spare time, believe it or not.

And in case you were wondering, yes, I posted this reply to bump the thread.

Finally, if you're looking for consistently antagonistic, negative comments from posters in the Caribbean forum, they're not from me. I'll leave it up to you to decide who I'm talking about. 😉

Enjoy. I'm outta here...