Very nontraditional student seeking advice

[Nexxin]

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Hi all,

New poster here. Variants of this question have been asked thousands of times, but my circumstances are somewhat unique. Here's some general background.

I'm in my mid-30s. I went to a top 5 public university and graduated with a double major (non-science) with 3.9 GPA. Because of some E/C I was involved in, I was also required to take 3 semesters of calculus and 3 semesters of calculus-based physics, in which I did well (mostly As except for a single B+ in the last physics class). I took the AP Chemistry test before I went to college and passed. Beyond this, no other sciences.

Went to a top 3 law school. Worked in biglaw for a few years. Got severely depressed in my 4th year and left work, have remained on disability since then (so for about three years). I came from an extremely dysfunctional family. Father was extremely physically abusive and mother was very mentally ill. Both were physicians (father was oncologist, mother was internist but beyond getting board-certified never practiced medicine due to career choice and mental illness). For those wondering, parents were never married and did not live together. I grew up mostly with my father, subject to his extreme abuse, save for two years with my mother, which were perhaps even worse (serial hoarding, pathologically frugal (wouldn't pay for heat, wouldn't for my food or clothing or haircuts, looked like a homeless person who wore torn clothing, etc.). I became emancipated when I was 16. During the period I was depressed (2017-2019), my mother was diagnosed with an extremely rare cancer (think, less than 100 cases total in the medical literature), which is usually benign, but here was malignant and metastasized. She died mid last year. Because she was so mentally ill, my mother's estate was an absolute mess. It's been a year and a half since she died and probate is still open. I'm not even sure if it will close in 2020.

As for me, I'm now starting to claw my way back to a semi-normal life. I'm exercising and dieting to lose the enormous amount of weight I put on. And I'm also trying to figure out how I'm going to move forward with my life. I have a very small solo practice and have a couple clients, but it's not enough to sustain me and I'm not sure I want to seriously grow my practice.

Honestly, I want a career change. I don't want to stay in law. I didn't end up doing the things I thought I would be doing. It didn't make me happy. The happiest I was as a lawyer is when I wasn't a lawyer at all, but a law student working in legal aid. For various reasons, I don't even want to do that. Being a lawyer requires constantly arguing with others. It is a constant state of conflict. The arguments are over ridiculous things (discovery, a lot of the time). Most ways to make decent money involve representing corporations, not helping individuals. As a legal aid attorney, I might make $40K to $60K or so. No, it's certainly not all about the money, but I also don't want to live like a pauper.

My parents both steered me away from medicine early on, and I foolishly followed their advice. But honestly, I want to heal patients. I want to see 30, 40, 50, or however many patients a day and use my skills (namely, intelligence and knowledge, and hopefully a good bedside manner) to try and improve their lives and/or heal them. I don't even particularly care what specialty I go into or how much money I make. I think I'd be happy as a PCP, as a psychiatrist (I obviously have pretty unique insight), as an oncologist, etc. I know enough about myself now to admit that I have an illness (probably related to what afflicted my mother, who was also a trauma victim), but I think I also know how to keep myself healthy (exercise, diet, not being socially isolated, reaching out for help early). I'd probably be good at spotting warning signs in others.

So, I've been thinking quite seriously about going to medical school. There are a bunch of obvious issues here.
-I don't have a science background.
-I haven't been working for the past 3 years.
-Letters of recommendations are going to be an issue since I'm not working and have been out of school for a while.
-I don't have health-related E/Cs.
-I haven't taken nor studied for the MCAT.
-Assuming I can rectify some of these issues and somehow get accepted to a medical school somewhere, I'm not going to enter until my mid-to-late 30s, and I won't be board-certified until my mid-to-late 40s.
-I have no guarantee I'm not going to suffer a relapse of my depression.
-The severity of this depression (which included a suicide attempt and a brief hospitalization) may be a problem with state licensing boards.

Some of these problems are bigger than others. I have no doubt that with enough study, I can get flying colors on the MCAT (I got well into 99th percentile for SATs and LSATs; tests and school and have never been an issue). I could probably take one of those post-bacc programs for a year if I need to. Money is not an issue (have enough saved up from biglaw, and from disability insurance, and student loans were paid off while I was working). The age factor is a concern (yeah, working 80+ hours a week in my mid-40s could honestly be problematic and surely could be a depression trigger if I don't have enough time for self-care), and the mental health question and state licensing boards are big unknowns--although I wouldn't be applying to med school until the 2021 cycle, most likely, so there will probably be enough time by then to tell how permanent this remission is going to be.

I'd really appreciate some feedback from knowledgeable individuals. Is medicine a pipe dream that I need to give up on because of the depression and disability factors? If it's still worth pursuing, what's the best way to move forward (i.e., to be competitive when applying to medical schools, to gather recommendations, etc.)? Should I do a pre-med post-bacc program and get recommendations from that program? Are there any that are especially good with transfers to med schools? Should I volunteer in a health-related field? Should I work as an EMT?

Any and all feedback appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Edit: At the risk of giving out too much information about myself (I'll probably delete this thread before I end up applying), I'm a dual US/Canadian citizen (so Canadian medical schools might also be an option) and also LGBT (to whatever extent that matters--and yes, I was also abused by my father for this when he found out; the last time I ever spoke to him, he called me a "f*g bitch"; being a doctor doesn't make someone a good person, that's for sure).

 

[Bonne Nuit]

OK, there's a lot to sort through here, but I first want to say I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. You've been dealt an undeniably terrible hand in life, but you've managed some extraordinary academic achievements despite your traumatic history. I have no doubt that, should you keep working on your mental and physical health and you're so inclined, you could pull this off again in medicine.

That said, there are two things you should do before you plan your path to medical school any further:

1. You need to start volunteering in a clinical setting. Reach out to a local hospital, hospice, cancer center, etc. and see what opportunities are available to work with patients - something like pushing wheelchairs, getting coffee for patients, or reading to sick kids. Competitive applicants have 100+ clinical volunteering hours.
2. You need to shadow physicians ASAP. This (and, really, only this) will help you determine if medicine is right for you. You need to witness the day-to-day grind of medicine firsthand, and shadowing is basically a requirement for admission to all medical schools. Start by finding a local primary care provider (pediatrician, internist, or family medicine doc) and shadow for ~40 hours. Consider shadowing the additional specialties you're interested in (oncology, psychiatry etc.) after you've spent a week or two with a primary care doc.

You will have a clearer sense if medicine is a good option for you after you start volunteering and shadowing. In the interim, start browsing around on SDN to see what other nontrads have done (lots of former lawyer threads if you do some searching) and your possibilities/options will become clearer. Never stop fighting for your mental and physical health.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help or if you have any other questions!

 

[Nexxin]

OK, there's a lot to sort through here, but I first want to say I'm so sorry to hear about your struggles. You've been dealt an undeniably terrible hand in life, but you've managed some extraordinary academic achievements despite your traumatic history. I have no doubt that, should you keep working on your mental and physical health and you're so inclined, you could pull this off again in medicine.

That said, there are two things you should do before you plan your path to medical school any further:

1. You need to start volunteering in a clinical setting. Reach out to a local hospital, hospice, cancer center, etc. and see what opportunities are available to work with patients - something like pushing wheelchairs, getting coffee for patients, or reading to sick kids. Competitive applicants have 100+ clinical volunteering hours.
2. You need to shadow physicians ASAP. This (and, really, only this) will help you determine if medicine is right for you. You need to witness the day-to-day grind of medicine firsthand, and shadowing is basically a requirement for admission to all medical schools. Start by finding a local primary care provider (pediatrician, internist, or family medicine doc) and shadow for ~40 hours. Consider shadowing the additional specialties you're interested in (oncology, psychiatry etc.) after you've spent a week or two with a primary care doc.

You will have a clearer sense if medicine is a good option for you after you start volunteering and shadowing. In the interim, start browsing around on SDN to see what other nontrads have done (lots of former lawyer threads if you do some searching) and your possibilities/options will become clearer. Never stop fighting for your mental and physical health.

Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help or if you have any other questions!

Thanks so much for your feedback and suggestions. I don’t think volunteering or shadowing will be an issue (I have nothing but free time right now, really). I’ll look into those options tomorrow. Any idea what comes next?

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Thanks so much for your feedback and suggestions. I don’t think volunteering or shadowing will be an issue (I have nothing but free time right now, really). I’ll look into those options tomorrow. Any idea what comes next?

After that, start looking into cheap options for postbac work - your local state school will probably be best. You can start by taking the general chemistry and intro biology series. I know you’re a capable student, but don’t feel pressured to go too hard too quickly. Let yourself get reacclimated to the classroom. You can always ramp up the courseload later.

You’ll also want 100+ hours of nonclinical volunteering (major plus if this is with underserved, marginalized, or vulnerable communities) before you apply. Perhaps your legal skills can be put to use in this regard.

 

[Suess]

Welcome to the forum, OP!

I am very sorry to hear about all of the obstacles and trauma in your life. You have persevered through a lot and your many achievements thus far in life are very impressive.

The above poster hit the nail on the head with what steps to take. Please keep in mind that your mental health and self-care should be paramount through the process. I'll echo Janet in saying that you are clearly capable of meeting the academic requirements for medical school.

I don't post much, but your story and circumstances are quite compelling. Good luck with everything and take care. I wish you all the best.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

@gonnif is this not your area of expertise?

 

[DocJanItor]

I think one of the main issues before you get started on this pathway is to really examine your mental health and stability. This career places an incredible amount of stress on people before you even actually get into it: doing prereqs, doing volunteering, getting letters, application cycle, interviews, choosing a school, getting through pre-clinicals, then Step 1, then clinicals and Step 2, then residency interviews, residency +/- fellowship. Then you have to deal with all the factors that are contributing to physician burnout.

Bottom line: it's all uphill from here. Every time you get used to it, it then gets harder (except 4th year of med school). I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do it. I just don't want you to compromise the progress you've already made.

 

[Nexxin]

I think one of the main issues before you get started on this pathway is to really examine your mental health and stability. This career places an incredible amount of stress on people before you even actually get into it: doing prereqs, doing volunteering, getting letters, application cycle, interviews, choosing a school, getting through pre-clinicals, then Step 1, then clinicals and Step 2, then residency interviews, residency +/- fellowship. Then you have to deal with all the factors that are contributing to physician burnout.

Bottom line: it's all uphill from here. Every time you get used to it, it then gets harder (except 4th year of med school). I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do it. I just don't want you to compromise the progress you've already made.

Thanks for your feedback. I absolutely agree and it’s something I’ll be monitoring very closely at every stage of the process if I move forward. I’ve read the statistics about physician depression, suicide rates, lack of overall happiness (ie medscape reports) and it is concerning. That’s why I’m going to spend some more time researching, shadowing, and making sure this is the long, long journey I feel comfortable undertaking. If I don’t feel confident I can maintain my sanity and stability, which is my #1 priority, I’ll figure something else out.
Stress and challenge alone haven’t done me in. What’s jeopardized my mental health is social isolation, sedentariness, and severe psychological shocks. I’ve probably been happiest when I’ve been pushing and challenging myself. I definitely feel like being a physician is a more active lifestyle than being a lawyer (a lot of walking and standing vs. sitting at a desk drafting motions and briefs) and involves a lot more social interaction (whether it’s with patients, physicians, other health care staff, etc.).

 

[Ell19]

After that, start looking into cheap options for postbac work - your local state school will probably be best. You can start by taking the general chemistry and intro biology series. I know you’re a capable student, but don’t feel pressured to go too hard too quickly. Let yourself get reacclimated to the classroom. You can always ramp up the courseload later.

You’ll also want 100+ hours of nonclinical volunteering (major plus if this is with underserved, marginalized, or vulnerable communities) before you apply. Perhaps your legal skills can be put to use in this regard.

I agree with this ^ and am basically going to reiterate what they said. I am also incredibly sorry to hear about your struggles and I wish you nothing by the best on your journey to medicine.

Your health comes first, so you have to build a support system of your psychiatrist/therapist/PCP/any family or friends, (with your mental health history I am assuming you are actively being treated by a psychiatrist and therapist). You want to set yourself up for success since the road to being a physician is extremely taxing on everyone, even those without mental health concerns.

Start slow by volunteering at a local hospital and shadowing a physician. Then start to take postbac classes (as suggested above), max ~2 at a time and go from there. I have no doubt you have the mental capabilities to handle the coursework, but you want to slowly incorporate everything since you don't want to overwhelm yourself. You can build up your ECs while taking postbac classes, but again one step at a time.

Then go from there. Medical schools are certainly not going anywhere and you want to make sure you are in the best headspace possible for when you apply and potentially go to medical school.

 

[curbsideconsult]

As @Goro always says, you need to be running towards medicine and not running away from something else. It sounds like you're running away from something else. Medicine is trial by fire and even if you find the material very easy to breeze through, there will be a myriad other things that may potentially make your life miserable.

It sounds like you know that doctors, just like anyone else, can be absolute pieces of ****, yet it also sounds like you have almost an unrealistic idea of what the practice of medicine entails. It's no small thing to see upwards of 50 patients a day as you say. Hell, it's no small thing to see even 15 patients a day. Because it's not the patients you see and spend time with then go on your merry way. If you're talking outpatient, you're not only seeing your patients, but dealing with their insurance, writing up your notes, dealing with some idiotic no-face sending you messages through the EHR that you need to document differently or you won't get paid, etc. If you're talking inpatient, a lot of the same things apply, plus all the bull**** consults you might have to see or maybe you're in a specialty that receives a lot of consults and then you have deal with consultants who think you're an idiot for calling them. Also think about how you're going to feel when you're in residency at 42+ years of age and a chief who's barely hit puberty is telling you that you're doing everything wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love where I am right now (though the stress of residency apps is slowly driving me mad), but I went into this knowing that it wasn't going to be all daisies and roses. There's a lot of weeds to wade through and sometimes it'll feel like you're being choked by them. Your motivations for going into medicine can't be that you're trying to escape your old life and that you want a more active job. There has to be something more. If you think you can find fulfillment doing something else, anything else, go do that instead (this had been said to me multiple times and I'm glad I listened to it).

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

Also think about how you're going to feel when you're in residency at 42+ years of age and a chief who's barely hit puberty is telling you that you're doing everything wrong.

As a non-trad yourself curbside, do you find attendings treat you differently than other MS3/4's?

 

[curbsideconsult]

As a non-trad yourself curbside, do you find attendings treat you differently than other MS3/4's?

They do treat me a little differently, but I don't think it's simply because I'm a non-trad. I've learned over the years how to function in the work place (which is very different from being a student) so I'm more at ease in the clinical space than some of my colleagues are and I think that's what attendings are responding to.