Very, VERY nontrad

[sitthakim]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Okay I posted in the "what are my chances?" forum but thought I'd try here as well. I need all the advice I can get!

Three years ago I left my first undergrad for health-related reasons. In doing so I had to take an incomplete in a class that I was not capable of completing at the time... and ended up with a big fat F on my transcript. I have tried to get it stricken from my record but cannot, and I can't re-take it because they don't offer it anymore (and on top of that, I no longer live in the area). What can I do about this? Does it need a letter of explanation?

So after I left ugrad I went to acupuncture school for 2 years, but I didn't graduate. Have you ever sat in class and been like, "this is a waste of my money time and money"? That's what it was like for me. The program lacked any sort of cohesion and was just SO frustrating. I worked in the clinic there and I really enjoyed that, but it didn't offer the scope of practice or depth of patient care (or even the TYPE of medicine that is most meaningful to me, emergency medicine) that I was looking for. If being an MD or DO is like having a driver's license, then an LAc is like a restricted license. Very frustrating indeed.

So now I am back finishing my undergrad and fulfilling my premed requirements and trying to figure out how to present myself on an app so that some school will want me. So I have some questions:

-Technically I am due to graduate in the spring, but i can stretch it out over 2 semesters to get some premed stuff done. However, my school is quite spendy and I won't be able to take all of my chem here. If I take OChem somewhere else does that affect anything? Or does it just all get averaged together, and the grade is most important?

-Do I need to send my acupuncture school transcripts? I'd really rather not; however, I did get a lot of clinical experience there. How do I even approach the whole acupuncture school thing??

-My cumulative GPA when I graduate looks like it's going to be around a 3.4. I know that's kind of low for a traditional MD program, so I think I'm going to apply to both MD and DO schools. However, would lots of clinical experience/extracurriculars/volunteer stuff combined with a high MCAT score make up for a less than stellar academic record? (Damn that F!) And if my science GPA is higher than my cumulative does that reflect well on my candidacy?

-Is there any other advice anyone has for me???

Thanks everyone!!

 

[sindadel]

I'd certainly be prepared to talk about the F in interviews. Practice saying (non-defensively) that you had to take a leave from school due to illness and you were not able to make up the incomplete during the time allotted. End of story. One F doesn't really change anything.

And yes, a great MCAT can balance out a 3.4 - 36 or 37 would put you in the running for some quite competitive schools. If you do some more upper-division bio and chemistry courses, you can raise your uGPA some more though, since you don't have years and years of course-work to overcome. Don't be afraid to take an extra year or two before applying in order to get really good grades in the rest of your pre-reqs and then rock the MCAT.

You should take ochem at a 4-year institution, rather than at a community college, but it doesn't matter if it is at your undergrad institution.

You should send transcripts from acupuncture school if they have the ability to send transcripts - honesty is required. Address your acupuncture experience in your personal statement, glancing over your (I assume) less than stellar grades to your excellent (but limited) clinical experience which inspired you to go back to school and do really well.

 

[MeowMix]

would lots of clinical experience/extracurriculars/volunteer stuff combined with a high MCAT score make up for a less than stellar academic record?

Maybe, if "high" = 40+. The rest of it is just expected and, unless truly exceptional, won't get you past the unforgiving GPA screens. Just ask multiple people on here with great exp/EC/volunteer experiences.

There are plenty of former chiropractors/ massage therapists/ acupuncturists/ etc. who have gone over to medicine. You are not, unfortunately, exotically or even "very very" non-traditional. You are just another person who left before graduating.

 

[njbmd]

Okay I posted in the "what are my chances?" forum but thought I'd try here as well. I need all the advice I can get!

Three years ago I left my first undergrad for health-related reasons. In doing so I had to take an incomplete in a class that I was not capable of completing at the time... and ended up with a big fat F on my transcript. I have tried to get it stricken from my record but cannot, and I can't re-take it because they don't offer it anymore (and on top of that, I no longer live in the area). What can I do about this? Does it need a letter of explanation?

So after I left ugrad I went to acupuncture school for 2 years, but I didn't graduate. Have you ever sat in class and been like, "this is a waste of my money time and money"? That's what it was like for me. The program lacked any sort of cohesion and was just SO frustrating. I worked in the clinic there and I really enjoyed that, but it didn't offer the scope of practice or depth of patient care (or even the TYPE of medicine that is most meaningful to me, emergency medicine) that I was looking for. If being an MD or DO is like having a driver's license, then an LAc is like a restricted license. Very frustrating indeed.

So now I am back finishing my undergrad and fulfilling my premed requirements and trying to figure out how to present myself on an app so that some school will want me. So I have some questions:

-Technically I am due to graduate in the spring, but i can stretch it out over 2 semesters to get some premed stuff done. However, my school is quite spendy and I won't be able to take all of my chem here. If I take OChem somewhere else does that affect anything? Or does it just all get averaged together, and the grade is most important?

-Do I need to send my acupuncture school transcripts? I'd really rather not; however, I did get a lot of clinical experience there. How do I even approach the whole acupuncture school thing??

-My cumulative GPA when I graduate looks like it's going to be around a 3.4. I know that's kind of low for a traditional MD program, so I think I'm going to apply to both MD and DO schools. However, would lots of clinical experience/extracurriculars/volunteer stuff combined with a high MCAT score make up for a less than stellar academic record? (Damn that F!) And if my science GPA is higher than my cumulative does that reflect well on my candidacy?

-Is there any other advice anyone has for me???

Thanks everyone!!

AMCAS is pretty specific about reporting every grade from every course that you have taken post secondary school. You don't get to pick and choose what you want to leave out because you think it looks better.

No, your MCAT score (or extracurricular activities) will not offset a poor undergraduate GPA. Your cumulative uGPA is definitely below average for medical school matriculants. You need to do some significant post bacc work to get that uGPA higher. In today's competitive atmosphere, you definitely face an uphill battle.

A letter of explanation is not going to change your grade of F. You didn't complete the work for whatever reason and you failed the course. You can take a sentence or two of your personal statement and attempt to explain the grade but if it's there, it's there and it's going to stay there.

Your other problem is that you didn't follow through with your acupuncture school. This is not going to bode well for any medical school (allopathic or osteopathic) wanting to take a chance on you. Your track record is going to hurt you when considered with your overall competitiveness and performance. It really doesn't matter if you found that you didn't want to practice acupuncture, you should have at least completed school and then opted not to practice. Your non-completion will be an issue especially with you attempting to explain why you didn't followup and remove that incomplete that became an F.

Applications to medical school are high this year. At my two schools, we have folks with applications that would be competitive in any other year, that are going to be placed in preinterview hold just because of the sheer numbers and the competitiveness of the other applicants. Getting into medical school isn't going to be a "chip shot" for anyone let alone an applicant who has some "follow-through" issues. Find a way to get this stuff explained and worked out.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your other problem is that you didn't follow through with your acupuncture school. This is not going to bode well for any medical school (allopathic or osteopathic) wanting to take a chance on you. Your track record is going to hurt you when considered with your overall competitiveness and performance. It really doesn't matter if you found that you didn't want to practice acupuncture, you should have at least completed school and then opted not to practice. Your non-completion will be an issue ...

Getting into medical school isn't going to be a "chip shot" for anyone let alone an applicant who has some "follow-through" issues. Find a way to get this stuff explained and worked out.

Yeah, I would actually say that the dropping out of this program is going to concern adcoms a whole lot more than a single, explainable F might. Yes you do have to provide transcripts from the Acupuncture program. Your quote "Have you ever sat in class and been like, "this is a waste of my money time and money"? That's what it was like for me. The program lacked any sort of cohesion and was just SO frustrating." is going to concern adcoms a lot. Because you know what? The first two years of med school are going to seem like that too. You want to get out and work with patients but you are going to be sitting in a classroom learning biochemistry or embryology or some other science that in all probability won't be relevant for the specialty you ultimately go into. So I would focus on why you left acupuncture school and have a much much better reason than it being a "waste of time". Had you finished, this degree would actually be a nice selling point, because acupuncture is gaining some acceptance in evidence based medicine, and you are starting to see a handful of docs adding this to their bag of tricks for chronic pain players. But dropping out with a "what's the point" attitude probably hurts your record a lot. So get a good explanation for this -- that's your biggest hurdle.
I agree with a prior poster that you are no more nontrad than anyone else -- you just may have dug yourself a different kind of hole to dig out of.

 

[tkim]

You are not, unfortunately, exotically or even "very very" non-traditional. You are just another person who left before graduating.

Agreed.

 

[sitthakim]

Yeah, I would actually say that the dropping out of this program is going to concern adcoms a whole lot more than a single, explainable F might. Yes you do have to provide transcripts from the Acupuncture program. Your quote "Have you ever sat in class and been like, "this is a waste of my money time and money"? That's what it was like for me. The program lacked any sort of cohesion and was just SO frustrating." is going to concern adcoms a lot. Because you know what? The first two years of med school are going to seem like that too. You want to get out and work with patients but you are going to be sitting in a classroom learning biochemistry or embryology or some other science that in all probability won't be relevant for the specialty you ultimately go into. So I would focus on why you left acupuncture school and have a much much better reason than it being a "waste of time". Had you finished, this degree would actually be a nice selling point, because acupuncture is gaining some acceptance in evidence based medicine, and you are starting to see a handful of docs adding this to their bag of tricks for chronic pain players. But dropping out with a "what's the point" attitude probably hurts your record a lot. So get a good explanation for this -- that's your biggest hurdle.
I agree with a prior poster that you are no more nontrad than anyone else -- you just may have dug yourself a different kind of hole to dig out of.

Thank you for this. I articulated myself very poorly in the original post (in regards to why I left acupuncture school), and I really appreciate a lot that you pointed this out to me.

 

[p30doc]

very very nontrad in my mind is something like hooker -> MD, you don't see that transition often

 

[193250]

very very nontrad in my mind is something like hooker -> MD, you don't see that transition often

Hahah, wow. That is very nontrad indeed.

 

[odamae]

I do not understand how medical school is more competitve nowadays with more seats to every class being added to fulfill the congressional mandate to offset the predicted shortage of MDs in the US. Is it a rise in the quantity of applications as well as the quality?

I have read several posts at this site on various threads by applicants who claim to have gotten into US medical schools with sub-par GPAs. I disagree that good MCAT scores will not at least partially compensate for a below-mean GPA- high MCATs in combination with demonstrated improvement in the sciences plus meaningful volunteer work in the healthcare field will make an applicant competitive.

I would also like to know how medical schools are going to "force" students to go into fields where the shortage is dire (FM, IM, etc) and prevent them from pursuing the more lucrative subspecialties. This is an age-old problem- adcoms tried to select students who showed an interest in primary care back when I was in medical school in the early '90's too. Of course when students got a dose of reality and saw how hard those folks worked and how compensation/lifestyle was incongruent, many changed their minds. But perhaps this is a subject for a different thread.......

 

[HumidBeing]

very very nontrad in my mind is something like hooker -> MD, you don't see that transition often

That's because they can't verify it as work experience. Their clients refuse to sign anything with their real names and contact information.

 

[HumidBeing]

I do not understand how medical school is more competitve nowadays with more seats to every class being added to fulfill the congressional mandate to offset the predicted shortage of MDs in the US. Is it a rise in the quantity of applications as well as the quality?

Yes. Both our population and the number of applications submitted has been growing. The quality is also increasing as students become better informed about what it takes to be highly competitive.

I have read several posts at this site on various threads by applicants who claim to have gotten into US medical schools with sub-par GPAs. I disagree that good MCAT scores will not at least partially compensate for a below-mean GPA- high MCATs in combination with demonstrated improvement in the sciences plus meaningful volunteer work in the healthcare field will make an applicant competitive.

They can PARTIALLY compensate, but for schools that have an automatic cutoff for GPA consideration, those applications don't even get past the first automatic screen.

I would also like to know how medical schools are going to "force" students to go into fields where the shortage is dire (FM, IM, etc) and prevent them from pursuing the more lucrative subspecialties. This is an age-old problem- adcoms tried to select students who showed an interest in primary care back when I was in medical school in the early '90's too. Of course when students got a dose of reality and saw how hard those folks worked and how compensation/lifestyle was incongruent, many changed their minds. But perhaps this is a subject for a different thread.......

At this point, they can't "force" them to. One way that they may be encouraged to follow them is by ofering incentives to forgive part of the tuition for those who take those paths. Another is by redistributing reimbursements for services. Those don't force people to choose to practice primary care, but they do help those who would prefer the fields to actually follow their preferences with more security.

 

[Law2Doc]

I would also like to know how medical schools are going to "force" students to go into fields where the shortage is dire (FM, IM, etc) and prevent them from pursuing the more lucrative subspecialties. This is an age-old problem- adcoms tried to select students who showed an interest in primary care back when I was in medical school in the early '90's too. Of course when students got a dose of reality and saw how hard those folks worked and how compensation/lifestyle was incongruent, many changed their minds. But perhaps this is a subject for a different thread.......

They won't have to "force" them. There are a set number of residency and subspecialty slots which are not going to increase much. As the number of US med students increases (10+% per year), more and more people won't get into the more lucrative subspecialties, and will be forced to take residency slots in primary care which were historically snagged by the offshore crowd. Problem solved without even lifting a finger -- you end up with more US students going into primary care (albeit perhaps kicking and screaming).

Also bear in mind that while we are experiencing a "shortage" in some specialties in certain geographic regions, this is caused by the aging baby boomer generation, who is living longer than prior generations with more and more co-morbidities. But ramping up the number of physicians more drastically would be a mistake because the generation behind the baby boomer generation is substantially smaller and more manageable. So I think the profession is content modestly increasing med school classes and not really playing with the number of residency slots.

The prior poster explained the competitive applicants question well -- while med school rosters are increasing 10% each year, the number of college students, and hence applicants is growing by similar numbers, so the stats aren't going down. And electronic MCAT testing allowing folks to retake more times per cycle is forcing that number upwards, since folks now don't have to settle for their 29 score or delay apps -- they have a few more times to take the test and inch it up.

 

[QofQuimica]

Yeah, I would actually say that the dropping out of this program is going to concern adcoms a whole lot more than a single, explainable F might. Yes you do have to provide transcripts from the Acupuncture program. Your quote "Have you ever sat in class and been like, "this is a waste of my money time and money"? That's what it was like for me. The program lacked any sort of cohesion and was just SO frustrating." is going to concern adcoms a lot. Because you know what? The first two years of med school are going to seem like that too. You want to get out and work with patients but you are going to be sitting in a classroom learning biochemistry or embryology or some other science that in all probability won't be relevant for the specialty you ultimately go into. So I would focus on why you left acupuncture school and have a much much better reason than it being a "waste of time". Had you finished, this degree would actually be a nice selling point, because acupuncture is gaining some acceptance in evidence based medicine, and you are starting to see a handful of docs adding this to their bag of tricks for chronic pain players. But dropping out with a "what's the point" attitude probably hurts your record a lot. So get a good explanation for this -- that's your biggest hurdle.
I agree with a prior poster that you are no more nontrad than anyone else -- you just may have dug yourself a different kind of hole to dig out of.

Agree as well.

OP, you definitely have to report the acupuncture enrollment/grades, and it will be a tough sell to explain why you quit. Just for kicks, I looked up how long it takes to get an acupuncture degree. At least in my state (FL), a combined BS/MS can be completed in ten semesters at any of the five accredited acupuncture schools in this state (assuming you are coming straight out of HS with no credits to transfer). All of the schools will give you both degrees in 3 to 3.4 years if you go during the summers too. So, presumably you dropped out of acupuncture school more than halfway through the program. You also dropped out of another college once at some unspecified point for health reasons. (My interpretation of your OP is that you have yet to finish a college degree, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)

From an adcom's perspective, we are talking about a person who dropped out of not one, but *two* academic programs and has yet to finish a BS. You have a good explanation for dropping out the first time (health reasons), but a second degree dropped with about one year remaining to finish the degree isn't going to be so easy to explain away.

I also don't think any MCAT score in the world will make up for a subpar GPA. If your cum UG GPA is below 3.0, you're going to be screened out at a lot of schools. A 3.4 isn't ridiculously far below the avg. actually, so you won't be in horrible shape if you pull that off like you're predicting.

Along with the excellent advice that others have given you, I would suggest this: find something to which you have shown commitment throughout your life, and figure out how the skills you have acquired are applicable to medicine. If you don't have anything that fits the bill, then you need to take some time off and figure out what really means something to you. If you don't know yourself what you're committed to, how can you expect anyone else (like an adcom) to know?

Best of luck to you. 🙂

P.S. On a complete tangent, after skimming through the curriculums of all the acupuncture schools in FL, I kind of wish I had looked into doing this before. It sounds pretty cool, actually. 😛

 

[sitthakim]

Agree as well.

OP, you definitely have to report the acupuncture enrollment/grades, and it will be a tough sell to explain why you quit. Just for kicks, I looked up how long it takes to get an acupuncture degree. At least in my state (FL), a combined BS/MS can be completed in ten semesters at any of the five accredited acupuncture schools in this state (assuming you are coming straight out of HS with no credits to transfer). All of the schools will give you both degrees in 3 to 3.4 years if you go during the summers too. So, presumably you dropped out of acupuncture school more than halfway through the program. You also dropped out of another college once at some unspecified point for health reasons. (My interpretation of your OP is that you have yet to finish a college degree, so please correct me if I'm wrong.)

From an adcom's perspective, we are talking about a person who dropped out of not one, but *two* academic programs and has yet to finish a BS. You have a good explanation for dropping out the first time (health reasons), but a second degree dropped with about one year remaining to finish the degree isn't going to be so easy to explain away.

I also don't think any MCAT score in the world will make up for a subpar GPA. If your cum UG GPA is below 3.0, you're going to be screened out at a lot of schools. A 3.4 isn't ridiculously far below the avg. actually, so you won't be in horrible shape if you pull that off like you're predicting.

Along with the excellent advice that others have given you, I would suggest this: find something to which you have shown commitment throughout your life, and figure out how the skills you have acquired are applicable to medicine. If you don't have anything that fits the bill, then you need to take some time off and figure out what really means something to you. If you don't know yourself what you're committed to, how can you expect anyone else (like an adcom) to know?

Best of luck to you. 🙂

P.S. On a complete tangent, after skimming through the curriculums of all the acupuncture schools in FL, I kind of wish I had looked into doing this before. It sounds pretty cool, actually. 😛

Here in CA acupuncture programs are very different than FL. It is a 4-year MS that you need I think 3 years of school to get into in the first place. Oh how I wish I'd made it halfway through... but I had the unfortunate luck (yes, this would ONLY happen to me) of going to a school that closed and then getting a year behind in transferring to a different (significantly more open) one. So even though I was in school for 2 years I only technically made it through the first year. I have a really hard time justifying going through three more years of a very 'spensive and demanding program that I didn't even really like just so it looks good on a med school app. I kind of fell into it because of the health problem that forced me out of ugrad, and when that problem was resolved I found I missed ugrad and my original intention of going to med school. (This is, of course, speaking only in the vaguest of terms.)

But thank you very much for your suggestions. They are most helpful 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Here in CA acupuncture programs are very different than FL. It is a 4-year MS that you need I think 3 years of school to get into in the first place. Oh how I wish I'd made it halfway through... but I had the unfortunate luck (yes, this would ONLY happen to me) of going to a school that closed and then getting a year behind in transferring to a different (significantly more open) one. So even though I was in school for 2 years I only technically made it through the first year. I have a really hard time justifying going through three more years of a very 'spensive and demanding program that I didn't even really like just so it looks good on a med school app. I kind of fell into it because of the health problem that forced me out of ugrad, and when that problem was resolved I found I missed ugrad and my original intention of going to med school. (This is, of course, speaking only in the vaguest of terms.)

But thank you very much for your suggestions. They are most helpful 🙂

No, I agree with you on that. If you only got through one year of a seven year long program and hated it, then continuing on for another six years probably wouldn't be very sensible. I assumed you were much farther along.

I still think that the issue of having something you are committed to is a big one, though. Maybe you are just trying to preserve anonymity, but I really don't get any sense of your drive for med school from your posts, at least so far. I don't get any sense of your drive for much of anything, to be honest, and that is what would concern me most about you as an applicant. Maybe let's start over. You've told us a lot about what you haven't liked, but what *do* you like? Why medicine as opposed to, say, social work, or law, or paramedic, or eight zillion other careers out there that would allow you to help people in a meaningful way and wouldn't require nearly as much training?

 

[DPT2DO]

With regards to that ominous looking F on your transcript, you could retake the class and have it replaced on your AACOMAS application, which would most likely significantly raise your GPA. Unfortunately, you can't do that on your AMCAS, BUT retaking it may show a sense of urgency and a desire to tie up loose ends in your educational past. Maybe?

 

[Law2Doc]

With regards to that ominous looking F on your transcript, you could retake the class and have it replaced on your AACOMAS application, which would most likely significantly raise your GPA. Unfortunately, you can't do that on your AMCAS, BUT retaking it may show a sense of urgency and a desire to tie up loose ends in your educational past. Maybe?

OP already said "I can't re-take it because they don't offer it anymore". Otherwise, yeah, it would be a good idea.

 

[ChairmanMao]

That's because they can't verify it as work experience. Their clients refuse to sign anything with their real names and contact information.

Unless they're Eliot Sptizer

 

[ChairmanMao]

very very nontrad in my mind is something like hooker -> MD, you don't see that transition often

Aren't we all ****** to the medical establishment?

 

[ChairmanMao]

Is there any chance that a doctorate in acunpuncture would evolve over the next couple of years just like the DO program? I think acupuncture is a legitimate treatment and from the looks of it, most acupuncture programs seem pretty rigorous.

 

[DrMidlife]

Aren't we all ****** to the medical establishment?

That's MD -> hooker. The opposite is less common (and far more interesting).

 

[DrMidlife]

Is there any chance that a doctorate in acunpuncture would evolve over the next couple of years just like the DO program? I think acupuncture is a legitimate treatment and from the looks of it, most acupuncture programs seem pretty rigorous.

Not sure what you mean by "just like DO." The DO degree evolved from being more or less "traditional" medicine to being overwhelmingly western.

Nova's chair of OPP has an acupuncture degree. Actually she has a fistful of degrees. Can't freaking wait to meet her - I hear she's a hoot.

 

[sitthakim]

Is there any chance that a doctorate in acunpuncture would evolve over the next couple of years just like the DO program? I think acupuncture is a legitimate treatment and from the looks of it, most acupuncture programs seem pretty rigorous.

Acupuncture school is in fact quite rigorous, and from talking with my med student friends not any less work in the realm of gross memorization. (They used to tell me they had it easier because at least they didn't have to learn Chinese.) However it is not looking like there will be a OMD degree in the states anytime soon. You can currently get a DAOM (doctor of acupuncture and oriental medicine), however it is the equivalent of a phd and doesn't increase scope of practice or anything like that. Sadly a large part of the problem is beaurocratic (like everything these days you know). There aren't any nationwide acupuncture regulations right now; you can take the National Boards but you'll still be barred from practicing in some states (like CA). Everyone spends a lot of time arguing about what is "right" and "wrong" (come on, the medicine is thousands of years old, people are going to disagree, get over it), which is stupid, because the only thing that's "right" is what works for your patient. Unfortunately until the TCM community gets its act together things will probably stay where they are.

 

[murfettie]

Acupuncture school is in fact quite rigorous, and from talking with my med student friends not any less work in the realm of gross memorization. (They used to tell me they had it easier because at least they didn't have to learn Chinese.) However it is not looking like there will be a OMD degree in the states anytime soon. You can currently get a DAOM (doctor of acupuncture and oriental medicine), however it is the equivalent of a phd and doesn't increase scope of practice or anything like that. Sadly a large part of the problem is beaurocratic (like everything these days you know). There aren't any nationwide acupuncture regulations right now; you can take the National Boards but you'll still be barred from practicing in some states (like CA). Everyone spends a lot of time arguing about what is "right" and "wrong" (come on, the medicine is thousands of years old, people are going to disagree, get over it), which is stupid, because the only thing that's "right" is what works for your patient. Unfortunately until the TCM community gets its act together things will probably stay where they are.

Why don't you just learn it in China....
it's 5 years total for a Bachelor of Medicine, one year clinical practice included.
The Chinese doctors are seriously the real deal when it comes to acupuncture.

 

[sitthakim]

No, I agree with you on that. If you only got through one year of a seven year long program and hated it, then continuing on for another six years probably wouldn't be very sensible. I assumed you were much farther along.

Figured it out. Going to take a few more classes and graduate with a different degree.

 

[WFM18940]

Best of luck to you. Cheers!