Vet school drop out rates

[jackattack460]

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Would it be helpful to start a thread talking about the vet school drop out rates and policies for getting dropped out of programs (etc, how many credits of D’s or F’s certain schools allow, whether they allow you to make up those classes, etc)??

I didn’t even consider this when I was choosing a school, and then realized some schools drop out WAY more students than others... and have MUCH stricter policies.

I think this would be super helpful for upcoming classes that are trying to decide where they are going to spend their next four years and a crap ton of money in loans...

 

[Ashgirl]

So for Mizzou:

- You can get 9 credits of D's before you are kicked out, but no Fs. If you get this, you can apply for the next year's class by a repeal committee, but it isn't guaranteed by any means. I think this policy is a bit overly strict... you should be able to go to the next class at least once, though that is just my opinion.
-We lose the most first semester first year (around ~5-7 that first semester, then you end up graduating ~110 out of 120 after all 4 years are said and done). After that it drops off to maybe one or two dropping to the class below per year for mostly other reasons besides academics, or at least that was my experience. We don't commonly lose people 2nd year unless it's non-academic, and we hardly ever lose someone 3rd year and beyond.

I definitely see the point of this discussion and think it's super important, though I do wonder if the people who struggle at one school wouldn't just struggle at another? So, for instance, if you fail out of school X, would it truly mean you wouldn't fail out of school Y even if you get to try again in the class below you? So now instead of one year of loans, you have two, and you paid extra/OOS because of the "slack" failure rate, and you still end up failing?

 

[pp9]

Would it be helpful to start a thread talking about the vet school drop out rates and policies for getting dropped out of programs (etc, how many credits of D’s or F’s certain schools allow, whether they allow you to make up those classes, etc)??

I didn’t even consider this when I was choosing a school, and then realized some schools drop out WAY more students than others... and have MUCH stricter policies.

I think this would be super helpful for upcoming classes that are trying to decide where they are going to spend their next four years and a crap ton of money in loans...

How do you know how many students each school kicks out? I didn't know that statistic was available. I have always heard that roughly 3-5% of any class anywhere will fail out though.

But anyways, for Illinois:
One F (below a 60) in a quarter and you're gone, or if you do not have a cumulative 70% minimum by the end of any year, you're gone. You get 3 graded quarters years 1-3. If you do fail, you can plead your case and take a remediation exam, but I haven't heard of anyone doing that recently/don't know exactly what it entails. Everyone that I know who needed to repeat first year was allowed to do so and didn't have to beg for a second chance or anything. You definitely don't get a third chance though.

Edit: I should mention that our grading system is entirely different from all the other schools as far as I know...all of our classes are combined on our exams (we take 1 midterm instead of 6, for example), and we get only one final grade per quarter. Other schools give you a final grade for each class.

 

[pp9]

So for Mizzou:

- You can get 9 credits of D's before you are kicked out, but no Fs. If you get this, you can apply for the next year's class by a repeal committee, but it isn't guaranteed by any means. I think this policy is a bit overly strict... you should be able to go to the next class at least once, though that is just my opinion.
-We lose the most first semester first year (around ~5-7 that first semester, then you end up graduating ~110 out of 120 after all 4 years are said and done). After that it drops off to maybe one or two dropping to the class below per year for mostly other reasons besides academics, or at least that was my experience. We don't commonly lose people 2nd year unless it's non-academic, and we hardly ever lose someone 3rd year and beyond.

I definitely see the point of this discussion and think it's super important, though I do wonder if the people who struggle at one school wouldn't just struggle at another? So, for instance, if you fail out of school X, would it truly mean you wouldn't fail out of school Y even if you get to try again in the class below you? So now instead of one year of loans, you have two, and you paid extra/OOS because of the "slack" failure rate, and you still end up failing?

Also this. It's not like vet schools specifically are trying to get students kicked out. Usually each policy is designed in a way that reflects the academic curriculum at each school. Personally I feel like if you're going to have issues, you're going to have issues no matter where you go. Sure, there are other factors besides dismissal policies, but generally speaking, we learn the same stuff across the board.

I'm sure everyone has critiques on their own school and I definitely get being able to say "Well if this was taught this way, or at this time instead, or if we had more grade opportunities (see my description on our system above), I'd be doing better." However, it doesn't seem logical to pick a school based on the number of students that fail every year. There are more factors involved than just academic rigor.

 

[deleted676737]

At Iowa State, as concisely as possible:

- An F in a core course gets you dismissed. I believe that you can fail an elective and stay in. You can try to appeal the grade, but I don't know how often that actually works. As far as I understand, f you don't appeal or the appeal is unsuccessful, you're out for good and you have to reapply for a seat and start over, no matter if you're in the first or even the very last semester of the didactic curriculum. You can drop to the class below you if you have special, extenuating circumstances or end up having to take a leave of absence for non-academic reasons, I think.

- An F in a rotation also gets you dismissed. Earning a D grade in a rotation means that you must repeat that rotation.

- There's technically no limit on the number of D grades that you can earn; however, we're also required to maintain >2.0 at all times for all four major GPAs (cumulative core, cumulative total, semester core, semester total), so earning more than one D will probably put you below that minimum. If you fall below a 2.0, you're placed on academic probation for the following semester. In order for the probationary status to be removed, you need to make at least a 2.25 for all GPAs the next semester. If you fail to do this, you are dismissed.

Looking at the Academic Standards document available to students, our policies and proceedures are actually fairly complicated, but those are the big points, I feel.

 

[LyraGardenia]

At K-State if you get a D in a course, you have to repeat the course (i.e. be held back a year, but you only have to actually take the exams and such for the class you failed, and you can sit in on the other classes to stay fresh on the material). If you get an F, more than one D within 3 consecutive semesters, or more than 2 D's overall you're dismissed. You can appeal to be readmitted, but I don't know how successful that tends to be.

For pharmacology since we only had two exams in that class, we were given the opportunity to take a makeup cumulative final for people earning a D in the course, and if you get at least a C on that test then you get a C in the class. But this is a recent change, and that's the only class that I've heard of with any sort of remediation offered.

Also this. It's not like vet schools specifically are trying to get students kicked out. Usually each policy is designed in a way that reflects the academic curriculum at each school. Personally I feel like if you're going to have issues, you're going to have issues no matter where you go. Sure, there are other factors besides dismissal policies, but generally speaking, we learn the same stuff across the board.

I'm sure everyone has critiques on their own school and I definitely get being able to say "Well if this was taught this way, or at this time instead, or if we had more grade opportunities (see my description on our system above), I'd be doing better." However, it doesn't seem logical to pick a school based on the number of students that fail every year. There are more factors involved than just academic rigor.

Agree with this. Sometimes I wish we had more lenient remediation opportunities for people earning a D, but here they will generally curve things so that there isn't an exorbitant number of people getting below a C. So far my class has only lost one person permanently due to grades. Four people have left for personal reasons and 2 joined the c/o 2021, but we'll probably lose at least one more person after this semester.

 

[battie]

If you do fail, you can plead your case and take a remediation exam,

No remediation exam in my experience. Just the letter to the remediation committee, they have a meeting, and they pass the sentence. And illinois is hardcore about the cut off. Can 100% say that they will not pass you with a 69.5%.

Agreed with the above on the differences of grading/attrition rates not being important in your choice. I know I would have struggled no matter where I had gone. Anatomy sucks no matter where you go.

 

[MDB74]

I believe that NCSU has a similarish policy to kansas state in that you only have 2 Ds. I believe the gpa cutoff is also 2.0. Personally I'm fine with our policies and think they're more than fair. The stuff we learn may be overwhelming at times but there really isn't an excuse for failing any class to me.

I also agree with the sentiment that most struggling students would struggle anywhere. Some individual profs at a given school may be harder but generally we're all learning 90% the same material.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

I think this is definitely an important thing to ask about when selecting a school. As Elkhart's post highlights, attrition isn't always due to academic reasons. Sometimes people have a serious personal issue or major medical issue that prohibits them from successfully completing a semester. You should always ask what this policy is in case that person ends up being you.

Also ask if there are any major curriculum changes coming and how they will affect your class. This has been an issue at my school (VMRCVM). In the past (and in the future) students had/have the option to withdraw for personal/medical reasons and petition for return with the next class (with the approval of the academic standards committee). Same for if they failed to meet minimum standards. Our year doesn't have that option due to the curriculum change. If we have to leave due to personal reasons or major medical issues, we don't have the option to come back with the next class. We will have to find another school that will take us when we're ready to come back. If we fail to meet standards, we have to repeat the class(es) over a two week winter or summer break. (Our breaks were also shortened to accommodate the schedule changes of the new curriculum.)

The academic standards for my year (2019) are:
Academic concern: if semester GPA falls below 2.5 (they have some intervention type things you have to do)
Academic probation: if semester GPA falls below 2.5 for two consecutive semesters, your cumulative GPA falls below 2.5, or you receive 2 D grades in one semester
Reviewed for dismissal: if your semester GPA is below 2.5 for 3 consecutive semesters, or receives a D in any class while on academic probation
Review for advancement to 4th year: any student whose cumulative GPA is between 2.25 and 2.5 at the end of semester 6
Automatic Dismissal: if 5 or more D grades total, 3 or more D grades in one semester, an F in any course, or < 2.25 GPA at the end of semester 6

We are graded on the following scale:
Score Letter GPA points
94 & up A 4.0
91-93.99 A- 3.7
88-90.99 B+ 3.3
85-87.99 B 3.0
82-84.99 B- 2.7
79-81.99 C+ 2.3
76-78.99 C 2.0
73-75.99 C- 1.7
70-72.9 D+ 1.3
67-69.99 D 1.0
64-66.99 D- 0.7
below 64 F 0.0

The new curriculum is much more lenient. Instead of individual classes they have "blocks", two per semester for years 1-2. They haven't told us how they're going to do year 3 yet. They are graded on a P/F basis, with a 64% and above considered passing (For us that would be a D-/0.7, which would send us right out the door.) If they get less than 64% they can take an advancement exam and get at least a 64% to progress. They cannot have more than 1 advancement exam for each calendar year in years 1 and 2, and they can take two in year 3 (one per semester).

If they are below a 70% they are considered "at risk" and have to do some intervention type things. But they cannot be kicked out for academic reasons unless:
- get below a 64% in the course and the advancement exam
- get below a 64% in two or more courses during years 1-2, or during the same semester in year 3

They have the option to withdraw for personal or medical reasons and then petition for reinstatement. They can also do that if they fail for academic reasons.

There's some frustration in my class because people who have had extenuating personal/medical situations couldn't withdraw and had to just try not to fail despite their situation. And when the inevitable happens they only have 2.5 weeks to try and save themselves. Hoping of course that whatever issue was happening has been resolved at that point. And there are others that are facing dismissal for academic reasons when they wouldn't even be considered "at risk" in the new curriculum. (Which would be understandable if the new curriculum was more demanding, but it's not.)

 

[Gemgrrrl]

For pharmacology since we only had two exams in that class, we were given the opportunity to take a makeup cumulative final for people earning a D in the course, and if you get at least a C on that test then you get a C in the class. But this is a recent change, and that's the only class that I've heard of with any sort of remediation offered.

Oh man, I wish! We have several classes this semester where our whole grade is based on two, or even one, exam. We did get a curve in pharm though. But no option if you get a D. You just have to live with it.

What is the grading scale there?

 

[MDB74]

People don't fail out of vet school because they're not smart enough or for lack of trying.

I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I definitely disagree.

 

[Ashgirl]

I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I definitely disagree.

I think it may be easy to say this if you aren't the one failing.

Now, I think it is reasonable to say that there are people out there who rarely fail because they blew off their studying and thought they could wing it, etc. However, I've met many a exam that simply did not match my mastery of the material and was instead an extreme exercise in test-taking. Did people know enough to get a C if someone else wrote a different test? Absolutely. Did people instead get a D or an F based on trivial things that didn't truly reflect their knowledge of the subject? Absolutely. There are usually more variables than simply "are you smart enough" or "did you truly try hard enough?"

 

[Caiter92]

I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I definitely disagree.

I think this is a really harsh position to take, and hope if you’re ever in the same position, you’re not met with the same lack of compassion you’re showing here.

 

[dyachei]

I think it may be easy to say this if you aren't the one failing.

Now, I think it is reasonable to say that there are people out there who rarely fail because they blew off their studying and thought they could wing it, etc. However, I've met many a exam that simply did not match my mastery of the material and was instead an extreme exercise in test-taking. Did people know enough to get a C if someone else wrote a different test? Absolutely. Did people instead get a D or an F based on trivial things that didn't truly reflect their knowledge of the subject? Absolutely. There are usually more variables than simply "are you smart enough" or "did you truly try hard enough?"

Well, for some people, it is true that they may not try very hard. But I think that's more a reflection of not having motivation in a stressful situation.

But for most people, they try hard, try to get help, and still fail. And it could happen to most people in the class.

 

[pp9]

Oh man, I wish! We have several classes this semester where our whole grade is based on two, or even one, exam. We did get a curve in pharm though. But no option if you get a D. You just have to live with it.

What is the grading scale there?

Sounds like you guys might be moving into a system that's very similar to what we have at Illinois. There are pros and cons to it. It saved my butt when I was struggling with anatomy, but then no one will ever know I did well in every other subject since they don't show up on our transcripts.

I think it may be easy to say this if you aren't the one failing.

Now, I think it is reasonable to say that there are people out there who rarely fail because they blew off their studying and thought they could wing it, etc. However, I've met many a exam that simply did not match my mastery of the material and was instead an extreme exercise in test-taking. Did people know enough to get a C if someone else wrote a different test? Absolutely. Did people instead get a D or an F based on trivial things that didn't truly reflect their knowledge of the subject? Absolutely. There are usually more variables than simply "are you smart enough" or "did you truly try hard enough?"

This is exactly what happened with my class's last midterm. A huge percentage flat out failed the exam because it was just a terrible fricken exam. Not even difficult material, but the questions were so absurd, irrelevant, and not even what was focused on in class. There is definitely a point where it goes past student performance and becomes a teacher/test writing issue.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a vet student who legit just plans on winging it. We all say we're "not ready" or "screw it, I'm done studying" or "I don't care anymore" but really no one really goes into an exam with no prep under their belt. There could be personal issues/events that prevent one from focusing well or having motivation, but I'd think someone truly just not trying would be a rarity.

And to suggest a student does poorly because they're not smart enough..well, you got into the same school.

Edit: Although after posting, maybe other schools do have students who go into exams without having at least studied a little? You'd essentially be digging your own grave if you did that here...there's no way to pass our exams without studying. But I also am not a genius, so I could be biased.

 

[pp9]

No remediation exam in my experience. Just the letter to the remediation committee, they have a meeting, and they pass the sentence. And illinois is hardcore about the cut off. Can 100% say that they will not pass you with a 69.5%.

Agreed with the above on the differences of grading/attrition rates not being important in your choice. I know I would have struggled no matter where I had gone. Anatomy sucks no matter where you go.

Did they offer you a chance to take the exam/did you ask? Or did they just say 'See ya next year!'? The option to remediate is pretty clearly stated in their policies but for the students who were held over from my class, they didn't get the option either. Seems pretty stupid to make you repeat a year over 0.5% when you could remediate, but what do I know

 

[DVMDream]

My entire class didn't finish an exam first year because they changed up the format and flat out did not give us enough time.

I flat out failed a course due to outside circumstances, I guess according to @MDB74 I shouldn't even be a vet... but he can shove that opinion right where he knows to.

 

[DVMDream]

Sounds like you guys might be moving into a system that's very similar to what we have at Illinois. There are pros and cons to it. It saved my butt when I was struggling with anatomy, but then no one will ever know I did well in every other subject since they don't show up on our transcripts.

.

They are adopting the UK based method. Well, kind of. Radiology wasn't just tested by itself in one exam. It was tested in one exam along with pharmacology, anesthesia, introduction to surgery and something else. Basically one giant exam for 5-8 subjects from the entire semester. Heck, we had an exam that covered an entire semester and a half worth of material.

 

[pp9]

They are adopting the UK based method. Well, kind of. Radiology wasn't just tested by itself in one exam. It was tested in one exam along with pharmacology, anesthesia, introduction to surgery and something else. Basically one giant exam for 5-8 subjects from the entire semester. Heck, we had an exam that covered an entire semester and a half worth of material.

Yep, then that's exactly what we have. We do have two cumulative exams that cover all material covered prior including other years, but we don't get an actual GPA grade for it....just have to pass to continue on in the program.

I think the traditional system gives you more chances to improve your GPA/dilute it (although not everyone gives a crap about that), but our system definitely lets other subjects carry you when you're bombing one. Having GPA grades for rotations when other schools have pass/fail is another topic as well, but that's more an issue if you're going for an internship/residency.

 

[DVMDream]

Yep, then that's exactly what we have. We do have two cumulative exams that cover all material covered prior including other years, but we don't get an actual GPA grade for it....just have to pass to continue on in the program.

I think the traditional system gives you more chances to improve your GPA/dilute it (although not everyone gives a crap about that), but our system definitely lets other subjects carry you when you're bombing one. Having GPA grades for rotations when other schools have pass/fail is another topic as well, but that's more an issue if you're going for an internship/residency.

For the most part, I did much better with exams in the US and having multiple, frequent exam than I did with the giant exams covering large amounts of material.

However, it is super hard to compare that because I was in such a ****ty place while in the UK that I was definitely not performing at my best. Not to mention that once I got to the US a number of classes were repeats for me and once you hit third year you kind of have the test taking crap under control. Not to mention the tests were so different.. all essay based in the UK to all multiple choice in the US.

 

[pp9]

For the most part, I did much better with exams in the US and having multiple, frequent exam than I did with the giant exams covering large amounts of material.

However, it is super hard to compare that because I was in such a ****ty place while in the UK that I was definitely not performing at my best. Not to mention that once I got to the US a number of classes were repeats for me and once you hit third year you kind of have the test taking crap under control. Not to mention the tests were so different.. all essay based in the UK to all multiple choice in the US.

When is the last time I had to write an essay? Derailing, but I've actually noticed my grammar and ability to type coherent thoughts decrease since starting vet school. I'll blame it on the fact that I haven't had to write much of anything for two years now.

 

[DVMDream]

When is the last time I had to write an essay? Derailing, but I've actually noticed my grammar and ability to type coherent thoughts decrease since starting vet school. I'll blame it on the fact that I haven't had to write much of anything for two years now.

My grammar and spelling went to crap when I was trying to decide if I should use UK type spelling or US type spelling of words. I still occasionally interchange the two.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I definitely disagree.

Unless you can magically transport yourself into other people's minds and bodies, you have no idea how smart they are, how hard they truly are or are not working, or what else may be going on in their lives at that moment. A little bit of humility and empathy goes a long way, kid.

 

[pp9]

Unless you can magically transport yourself into other people's minds and bodies, you have no idea how smart they are, how hard they truly are or are not working, or what else may be going on in their lives at that moment. A little bit of humility and empathy goes a long way, kid.

...can we do that, though? Person seems confident enough to take my exams for me.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Oh man, I wish! We have several classes this semester where our whole grade is based on two, or even one, exam. We did get a curve in pharm though. But no option if you get a D. You just have to live with it.

What is the grading scale there?

It's the standard 90 and above is an A, 80-89 is a B, 70-79 is a C, 60-69 is a D and 59 or below is an F. It's up to the professor if/how they round borderline grades.

I think I would struggle with only having one or two exams in most classes, we have 3-4 in most here, so I think most people (myself included) put pharm on the back burner the majority of the semester while we were busy studying for the more immediate tests. Then we had our pharm final last, so it was hard to keep the motivation going to study for it. I passed the class, but the final dropped me down a full 12%. But anyway, I think only 2-3 people are having to take the makeup final.

 

[LabLuv004]

Yep, then that's exactly what we have. We do have two cumulative exams that cover all material covered prior including other years, but we don't get an actual GPA grade for it....just have to pass to continue on in the program.

I think the traditional system gives you more chances to improve your GPA/dilute it (although not everyone gives a crap about that), but our system definitely lets other subjects carry you when you're bombing one. Having GPA grades for rotations when other schools have pass/fail is another topic as well, but that's more an issue if you're going for an internship/residency.

Sounds like the RVC. We have 3 exams: 2 worth 5% each in December and March and then 1, 4-day exam worth 90% in June. They cover everything taught prior to the exam. Passing is usually 50%, but it can vary based on the exam between mid 40s to mid 50s. The good thing is if you fail an exam in June you can resist in August to be able to move on with your class. If you fail again you can repeat the year but it's pretty rare.

RVC will have you graduate with a regular degree, with honors, or distinction so I think that may help with getting internships. If you have distiction you would stand out a lot from your class. Maybe that is something the US schools will adopt as well.

 

[DVMDream]

Sounds like the RVC. We have 3 exams: 2 worth 5% each in December and March and then 1, 4-day exam worth 90% in June. They cover everything taught prior to the exam. Passing is usually 50%, but it can vary based on the exam between mid 40s to mid 50s. The good thing is if you fail an exam in June you can resist in August to be able to move on with your class. If you fail again you can repeat the year but it's pretty rare.

RVC will have you graduate with a regular degree, with honors, or distinction so I think that may help with getting internships. If you have distiction you would stand out a lot from your class. Maybe that is something the US schools will adopt as well.

There were definitely people that graduated with honors in the US (bunch of over-achievers.............................. kidding, kidding.................. kind of).

 

[battie]

but there really isn't an excuse

You have no idea. Honestly, you don't. And I hope you never have to. It's a painful experience. As other have said, some humility and empathy is in order here.

Did they offer you a chance to take the exam/did you ask? Or did they just say 'See ya next year!'? The option to remediate is pretty clearly stated in their policies but for the students who were held over from my class, they didn't get the option either. Seems pretty stupid to make you repeat a year over 0.5% when you could remediate, but what do I know

No mention of a remediation exam. Just that I could be with the committee if I wanted to (though even that didn't happen). And, yeah, even though I adore my new class, I am still salty about that 0.5%.

 

[vetmedhead]

I have no interest in hijacking this thread but I definitely disagree.

Wow, what a callous sentiment. Frankly, the people I know at my school who have struggled with classes here work about 400000% harder than anyone else and are incredibly intelligent, exceptional people. Studying with them has improved my own grades and my own work ethic and I didn't struggle academically at all this semester. I'll be lucky to have them as colleagues alongside myself when we all graduate and having the gall to suggest that they are struggling because of a lack of intellect or a defect of character is exceptionally myopic.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The stuff we learn may be overwhelming at times but there really isn't an excuse for failing any class to me.

Somehow I missed this gem.

While there are not "excuses", there are explanations and circumstances. Many of which you may not be privy to, and many of which bear a large stigma and make people less willing to speak openly about.

I nearly failed (as in within one or two points) my second semester of anatomy. I struggled mightily in my third year resulting in serious conversations with academic affairs. Throughout this time, I was fighting tooth and nail with extreme depression as well as substance abuse. I was dragging myself, miserable, self-hating, and sick into class half of the time at best and all of the time at worst. It had nothing to do with my intellect or my drive, but the internal hellhole my life had become at the time.

I got help. I fought, I changed, I survived. I became immensely more resilient, more introspective, and dare I say more understanding to the rigors of academia for people in times of trauma. Now I try to help others in the same situation; intelligent and hardworking people who are fighting demons that most people don't have to fight.

Now? Most people here know I don't toot my own horn much, but here I'm damn well going to do so in light of this comment. This student who almost failed? This student who people would whisper about behind her back, saying she didn't have what it took? I'm boarded in one of the toughest specialties in veterinary medicine. I'm an author on over a dozen published papers, I've spoken at dozens of national and international conferences and been interviewed in journals. I'll have an additional PhD after my DVM in a few months. And I'll be damned if someone says that my academic performance in vet school was due to me being either not smart, or not trying enough, or that there was "no excuse" for my performance at the time. People are fighting battles all of the time, some more than others.

I encourage you to try to imagine the challenges your peers may be facing - challenges you may not even be aware of.

 

[Lupin21]

I think it may be easy to say this if you aren't the one failing.

Now, I think it is reasonable to say that there are people out there who rarely fail because they blew off their studying and thought they could wing it, etc. However, I've met many a exam that simply did not match my mastery of the material and was instead an extreme exercise in test-taking. Did people know enough to get a C if someone else wrote a different test? Absolutely. Did people instead get a D or an F based on trivial things that didn't truly reflect their knowledge of the subject? Absolutely. There are usually more variables than simply "are you smart enough" or "did you truly try hard enough?"

Agree here. As a TA, it always amazed me that some students were great at answering my questions and seemed to have a good handle on the material, but just could not get it to reflect on the exams. I myself met one of the first question makers that just didn't click with me at the end of this semester after my three years of vet school and two of PhD courses. It happens.

 

[Frozenshades]

Agree with this. Sometimes I wish we had more lenient remediation opportunities for people earning a D, but here they will generally curve things so that there isn't an exorbitant number of people getting below a C. So far my class has only lost one person permanently due to grades. Four people have left for personal reasons and 2 joined the c/o 2021, but we'll probably lose at least one more person after this semester.

That’ pretty good. First and second year I believe we lost around 10 to academics. Only 1 third year though.

Yep, then that's exactly what we have. We do have two cumulative exams that cover all material covered prior including other years, but we don't get an actual GPA grade for it....just have to pass to continue on in the program.

I think the traditional system gives you more chances to improve your GPA/dilute it (although not everyone gives a crap about that), but our system definitely lets other subjects carry you when you're bombing one. Having GPA grades for rotations when other schools have pass/fail is another topic as well, but that's more an issue if you're going for an internship/residency.

Interesting, that's one aspect I never thought about, having clinics be pass/fail. We get letter grades here. Overall I did well and fourth year helped my GPA, but it always did evoke frustrations with students because it seems very arbitrary. Some rotations really wouldn't tell you much about the grading system. Others would provide a rubric, but even then, if "professionalism" or "surgical skills" or whatever is worth X points - the clinician(s) still have to decide on a number for you. Much less objective than grading a test I think.

 

[Ashgirl]

Interesting, that's one aspect I never thought about, having clinics be pass/fail. We get letter grades here. Overall I did well and fourth year helped my GPA, but it always did evoke frustrations with students because it seems very arbitrary. Some rotations really wouldn't tell you much about the grading system. Others would provide a rubric, but even then, if "professionalism" or "surgical skills" or whatever is worth X points - the clinician(s) still have to decide on a number for you. Much less objective than grading a test I think.

I personally think clinics should be, as the whole, pass/fail (but then again I think vet school on a whole should be pass/fail so maybe I'm biased). I know differentiating between those who want internships would be really tricky, but honestly, the amount of subjective and arbitrary grading is rather ridiculous in my opinion. Especially since, on the same rotation, you can get completely different grades even if you put in the same amount of work, depending on who is the clinician on, is really silly to me. I have seen someone get a D and have their GPA suffer just based on the clinician simply not liking them... but another one gave them an A for the exact same amount of work/attitude/professionalism. The only difference was the person grading them.

 

[Trilt]

I personally think clinics should be, as the whole, pass/fail (but then again I think vet school on a whole should be pass/fail so maybe I'm biased). I know differentiating between those who want internships would be really tricky, but honestly, the amount of subjective and arbitrary grading is rather ridiculous in my opinion. Especially since, on the same rotation, you can get completely different grades even if you put in the same amount of work, depending on who is the clinician on, is really silly to me. I have seen someone get a D and have their GPA suffer just based on the clinician simply not liking them... but another one gave them an A for the exact same amount of work/attitude/professionalism. The only difference was the person grading them.

Ours are honors, pass, marginal, fail. I don't remember what marginal does tbh; think you can only get two or something? And not in core subjects? Could be talking out my ass.

I found the grading frankly kind of hilarious. The rotation I hated the most, dreaded waking up, dreaded interacting with the supervisor, literally would have rather been doing anything else... I got honors on. I mean there's no way I deserved that.

Whereas others where I felt I was doing great, good rapport, knew all the things, good reviews - just a pass. It's all subjective and every service seems to review fairly differently. Though we did have particular learning objectives we were graded on, so perhaps we're slightly less subjective than some schools.

 

[Lupin21]

Ours are honors, pass, marginal, fail. I don't remember what marginal does tbh; think you can only get two or something? And not in core subjects? Could be talking out my ass.

I found the grading frankly kind of hilarious. The rotation I hated the most, dreaded waking up, dreaded interacting with the supervisor, literally would have rather been doing anything else... I got honors on. I mean there's no way I deserved that.

Whereas others where I felt I was doing great, good rapport, knew all the things, good reviews - just a pass. It's all subjective and every service seems to review fairly differently. Though we did have particular learning objectives we were graded on, so perhaps we're slightly less subjective than some schools.

Reminds me of the evaluations required for all the teachers and classes we do here. lol

I just always pick 4/5 and say the class taught me what I needed to know, unless I particularly like a class or certain professor, in which case I'll give a 5/5 and tell them I loved them. haha

 

[Frozenshades]

Ours are honors, pass, marginal, fail. I don't remember what marginal does tbh; think you can only get two or something? And not in core subjects? Could be talking out my ass.

I found the grading frankly kind of hilarious. The rotation I hated the most, dreaded waking up, dreaded interacting with the supervisor, literally would have rather been doing anything else... I got honors on. I mean there's no way I deserved that.

Whereas others where I felt I was doing great, good rapport, knew all the things, good reviews - just a pass. It's all subjective and every service seems to review fairly differently. Though we did have particular learning objectives we were graded on, so perhaps we're slightly less subjective than some schools.

Yep. I personally didn't get blindsided by anyone, but I heard a couple stories of people who thought everything was fine, nothing was ever said to them, and then they got a low (but passing) grade and a mediocre (or just bad) evaluation from the clinician. The grading scale won't necessarily change needing better communication with students sometimes, but I agree with Ash that pass/fail (and maybe with some extra options like your school (NCSU???) trilt), is probably better. Just let letters of recommendation from clinicians speak for fourth year performance to the match.

For us they gave us this like spider graph thing twice during the year that was based on the numerical part of our end rotation reviews and then it shows the class average and how you compare. It had me being pretty medicore (I think below average in most topics lol) yet I got A's and B's on all rotations and generally mostly positive comments from clinicians. There's always an element of BS.

During years 1-3 I was lazy about doing professor reviews if they didn't give them in class, but during fourth year they won't give you your grade and eval for a rotation until you submit your evals of the clinicians and rotation.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

[.

It's the standard 90 and above is an A, 80-89 is a B, 70-79 is a C, 60-69 is a D and 59 or below is an F. It's up to the professor if/how they round borderline grades.

I like that a lot better than our system. I think it pulls down our GPAs compared to other schools who use the 10 point system. But I guess class rank kind of evens the playing field.

 

[Frozenshades]

[.

I like that a lot better than our system. I think it pulls down our GPAs compared to other schools who use the 10 point system. But I guess class rank kind of evens the playing field.

It can help or hurt, really just depends where your grade falls. 89.4, bummer that's a 3.0. Versus what for a B+? 3.3? So that's a nice little boost. But on the other hand if you get a 90, that's a 4.0, versus what for an A-, 3.7? If you always get 90's a ten point is obviously better for you, but if you tend to fall short of the next letter grade by a slim margin, +/- may give you a better GPA. In the end I'm not sure if makes a huge difference.

 

[flameshock]

Sounds like the RVC. We have 3 exams: 2 worth 5% each in December and March and then 1, 4-day exam worth 90% in June. They cover everything taught prior to the exam. Passing is usually 50%, but it can vary based on the exam between mid 40s to mid 50s. The good thing is if you fail an exam in June you can resist in August to be able to move on with your class. If you fail again you can repeat the year but it's pretty rare.

RVC will have you graduate with a regular degree, with honors, or distinction so I think that may help with getting internships. If you have distiction you would stand out a lot from your class. Maybe that is something the US schools will adopt as well.

This isn't really what VMCVM has now. We run exams every other weak, and that will be cumulative for the two weeks of material across all subjects. Our semester is broken up into two 8-week mega courses, so exam four is a 'final' where it s usually 2/3 new material and 1/3 cumulative to the 8 week course. Lab exams are sprinkled in as well but they're not usually not cumulative for a whole 8 week course.

 

[pp9]

I personally think clinics should be, as the whole, pass/fail (but then again I think vet school on a whole should be pass/fail so maybe I'm biased). but honestly, the amount of subjective and arbitrary grading is rather ridiculous in my opinion. Especially since, on the same rotation, you can get completely different grades even if you put in the same amount of work, depending on who is the clinician on, is really silly to me. I have seen someone get a D and have their GPA suffer just based on the clinician simply not liking them... but another one gave them an A for the exact same amount of work/attitude/professionalism. The only difference was the person grading them.

Interesting, that's one aspect I never thought about, having clinics be pass/fail. We get letter grades here. Overall I did well and fourth year helped my GPA, but it always did evoke frustrations with students because it seems very arbitrary. Some rotations really wouldn't tell you much about the grading system. Others would provide a rubric, but even then, if "professionalism" or "surgical skills" or whatever is worth X points - the clinician(s) still have to decide on a number for you. Much less objective than grading a test I think.

Agree with both of the above. All of this is definitely a sore spot for some students here. We get 9 grades for our entire 4 years of school. First year was rough? well you likely won't break a 3.0 unless you are somehow able to get straight A's from here on out. When we have interns/residents from other schools give us talks about how they got to where they were, the GPA thing almost always comes up. One resident even said "Mine wasn't that great, I only had a 3.4" only for a collective groan from the audience to follow.

Of course there are students at our school with 4.0's and everything I'm sure, but our class rank really reflects our grading system and doesn't help us much either. With so few grades to go off of, a lot of us are within fractions of a percentage of each other apparently.

However, it's not like our transcripts give this bit of information to help programs we apply to interpret our GPA/rank. Clinicians tell us that we'll have to plead our cases in our letters of intent and explain all of this, which is definitely going to be hard (however, there have been graduated classes with this grading system that have done exactly this). Or we're supposed to have our LOR writers call the programs and plead our case for us so it's more legit.

Person 125/125 might look pretty bad unless we can demonstrate that person 100/125 was only like 3% ahead of them.

Idk. It's all confusing the more I think about it. Frustrating, but then at the same time, I could just tell myself to be one of the straight A people.

 

[Gemgrrrl]

Our clinics are P/F, but I think I would rather they be graded. They require a completely different skill set that what it takes to be successful on a bunch of MC exams. If a student is great on MC exams but mediocre on the actual application / client communication / teamwork side of things they will still graduate with a high GPA. For students that aren't as great on MC exams but kick butt with the application part and are awesome "on the job", they don't get any boost to their GPA because of it. We have a couple of people in our class who are super book-smart, have awesome GPA's, but struggle with the social skills / playing well with others side of the equation. They're going to graduate at the top of the class, while others who have a good knowledge base and the soft skills will be in the middle of the pack.

 

[pp9]

Our clinics are P/F, but I think I would rather they be graded. They require a completely different skill set that what it takes to be successful on a bunch of MC exams. If a student is great on MC exams but mediocre on the actual application / client communication / teamwork side of things they will still graduate with a high GPA. For students that aren't as great on MC exams but kick butt with the application part and are awesome "on the job", they don't get any boost to their GPA because of it. We have a couple of people in our class who are super book-smart, have awesome GPA's, but struggle with the social skills / playing well with others side of the equation. They're going to graduate at the top of the class, while others who have a good knowledge base and the soft skills will be in the middle of the pack.

so much agreement here. I can get good letters of rec compared to those people, but it won't mean jack if I don't get looked at due to minimum GPA cutoffs.

Although the people in my class who do lack social skills/common sense/general normal tendencies would throw tantrums over the fact that they're being graded on how difficult they are to work with (Whether that be because they are a legitimate danger to patients, or because they just cannot be troubled with work and find any excuse to dump it on everyone else). We have a few people in my class that have been causing issues for everyone since first year.

 

[Frozenshades]

Agree with both of the above. All of this is definitely a sore spot for some students here. We get 9 grades for our entire 4 years of school. First year was rough? well you likely won't break a 3.0 unless you are somehow able to get straight A's from here on out. When we have interns/residents from other schools give us talks about how they got to where they were, the GPA thing almost always comes up. One resident even said "Mine wasn't that great, I only had a 3.4" only for a collective groan from the audience to follow.

Of course there are students at our school with 4.0's and everything I'm sure, but our class rank really reflects our grading system and doesn't help us much either. With so few grades to go off of, a lot of us are within fractions of a percentage of each other apparently.

However, it's not like our transcripts give this bit of information to help programs we apply to interpret our GPA/rank. Clinicians tell us that we'll have to plead our cases in our letters of intent and explain all of this, which is definitely going to be hard (however, there have been graduated classes with this grading system that have done exactly this). Or we're supposed to have our LOR writers call the programs and plead our case for us so it's more legit.

Person 125/125 might look pretty bad unless we can demonstrate that person 100/125 was only like 3% ahead of them.

Idk. It's all confusing the more I think about it. Frustrating, but then at the same time, I could just tell myself to be one of the straight A people.

I had to look back at your earlier post. One grade per quarter, woof. A good way to save yourself from a bad subject, but yeah I can see the challenges there. Have they always done it that way? I'm curious the reasoning for that system

Between electives and main curriculum classes we had over 40 separate graded courses (and some P/F things also) in years 1-3.

 

[pp9]

I had to look back at your earlier post. One grade per quarter, woof. A good way to save yourself from a bad subject, but yeah I can see the challenges there. Have they always done it that way? I'm curious the reasoning for that system

Between electives and main curriculum classes we had over 40 separate graded courses (and some P/F things also) in years 1-3.

I think the first class to graduate with the new curriculum was c/o 2013? I don't think we had mega courses before that, and we definitely didn't spend 1 quarter/year in the teaching hospital before that.

I think they were shooting for unique/new/'groundbreaking' kind of things to set the school apart but I'm just assuming. We voice our concerns over the grading system pretty regularly, and they're consistently blown off.

There are a few, maybe 3 or so, electives that we get real grades for. That being said, they're only 1 credit so it can only help you so much. I think the one I was able to take bumped me up by 0.01 haha.

 

[fve17]

Thank you to jackattack460 for starting a great thread. As someone whose GPA is definitely the weakest part of their app, this sort of information is very helpful.

For all the vet students here: in undergrad I got a D in a class because I was too sick to attend a midterm. My professor refused a makeup and gave me a 0 (it was 40% of my grade). Do I have to worry about anything like that happening in vet school?

 

[vetmedhead]

Thank you to jackattack460 for starting a great thread. As someone whose GPA is definitely the weakest part of their app, this sort of information is very helpful.

For all the vet students here: in undergrad I got a D in a class because I was too sick to attend a midterm. My professor refused a makeup and gave me a 0 (it was 40% of my grade). Do I have to worry about anything like that happening in vet school?

I have personal experience with this from just last week at my school. I had to reschedule 2/3rds of my finals because of the stomach flu and my professors were very accommodating about it. I've also had friends who had to reschedule midterms and the like due to illness etc. So long as you give adequate notice (so not after you've already missed the exam or anything like that) and have a good reason they're fairly reasonable about letting you make up exams later.

Obviously you can't reschedule exams super frequently or people start to ask you some questions but overall they're very accommodating and want you to succeed.

 

[Ashgirl]

Thank you to jackattack460 for starting a great thread. As someone whose GPA is definitely the weakest part of their app, this sort of information is very helpful.

For all the vet students here: in undergrad I got a D in a class because I was too sick to attend a midterm. My professor refused a makeup and gave me a 0 (it was 40% of my grade). Do I have to worry about anything like that happening in vet school?

Even with someone who thinks their school failure policies are strict, when it comes to sickness and life mishaps, they have all been extremely accommodating in my experience to allow you to reschedule, either in classroom or even in clinics.

 

[ziggyandjazzy]

Thank you to jackattack460 for starting a great thread. As someone whose GPA is definitely the weakest part of their app, this sort of information is very helpful.

For all the vet students here: in undergrad I got a D in a class because I was too sick to attend a midterm. My professor refused a makeup and gave me a 0 (it was 40% of my grade). Do I have to worry about anything like that happening in vet school?

I feel like that is not allowed??? Like some profs may require a letter from the doctor or something but that could be easily obtained from health services at my school if someone was sick.

I got in a nasty bike accident about half an hour before a lab this past semester. Good thing my prof totally understood. Don't think he would've wanted me in class with a glued together chin and a broken scaphoid (that they didn't seen in the ER, ugh). I'm in undergrad tho.

Edit: actually my chin wouldn't have been glued by that time lol so it would be me going to lab with a large gaping and bleeding facial wound. Yeah, no...

 

[fve17]

I feel like that is not allowed??? Like some profs may require a letter from the doctor or something but that could be easily obtained from health services at my school if someone was sick.

I got in a nasty bike accident about half an hour before a lab this past semester. Good thing my prof totally understood. Don't think he would've wanted me in class with a glued together chin and a broken scaphoid (that they didn't seen in the ER, ugh). I'm in undergrad tho.

I had a doctor's note! It was actually second term senior year and this stopped me from graduating; I found out a week before walking.
I'm still plenty salty about it but it's in the past and bad things happen I guess. I don't want to hijack the thread

 

[Frozenshades]

Even with someone who thinks their school failure policies are strict, when it comes to sickness and life mishaps, they have all been extremely accommodating in my experience to allow you to reschedule, either in classroom or even in clinics.

Agreed. There's some things they kinda have to do per policy above them, but for the most part if you try to work hard, be a good student, and be polite I always found profs to be accommodating of personal issues. On clinics we got 5 personal days off to use before make up days would be required. I was able to leave on short notice for a weekend and take two days off to be with my family and attend a funeral and the surgeon and resident were totally understanding, and one of my rotation mates nicely took over my one case. I think most people on all levels get that there IS life going on outside of the university and sometimes it demands attention.

I had a doctor's note! It was actually second term senior year and this stopped me from graduating; I found out a week before walking.
I'm still plenty salty about it but it's in the past and bad things happen I guess. I don't want to hijack the thread

It's a relevant hijack. Dude I'd be salty too. That's really crappy. And I do have to wonder if not against some department or university policy.