I am currently in my first semester of college majoring in Veterinary Technology. Before I graduated high school in May, I was very unsure of whether I wanted to be a veterinarian or veterinary technician. Just to be safe, I went the vet tech route. Not even a full semester in, I have realized that I want to make more of myself and become a veterinarian. I talked to two advisors over my school's vet tech program about a possible transfer or change of major, and they recommended that I complete a 2+2 program that they have with Clemson University. They told me that I would stay on this track and get my vet tech degree, and then finish vet school prerequisites at Clemson for the next two years. They claimed that the vet tech classes would transfer to Clemson. They recommended this because they said it would give me more experience and look better on the vet school applications. They said that a student did this and got accepted into vet school, while another left to go to a university before completing the program and did not get accepted. One of the advisors is a veterinarian and said that she was jealous of the people in her classes who were already vet techs because they had more experience. I'm not sure if they're just trying to push their program on me or what. What is the best route for me to go?
Vet tech before vet school?
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I highly doubt that that one person didn't get accepted to vet school solely because she dropped the vet tech program. Most people I know who are in my class and other classes in my school are not CVTs...most of us have just worked as assistants or even just shadowed vets.
Personally, I would talk to Clemson yourself to verify that courses will transfer. I've seen from other students on here about courses not transferring to undergrad degrees or not being able to be used for vet school pre-reqs, so I would just want to confirm before continuing to spend money on this program and the time on the classes.
The veterinary experience will definitely help your application, but that is not the only part that factors into everything. It's a crazy process and emphasis is placed on different areas depending on the school. GPAs/GRE's, LORs and extracurriculars are all important.
Ultimately only you can make the choice, but I'd definitely talk to Clemson first and verify everything and then look at what is the most cost efficient way to proceed.
Personally, I would talk to Clemson yourself to verify that courses will transfer. I've seen from other students on here about courses not transferring to undergrad degrees or not being able to be used for vet school pre-reqs, so I would just want to confirm before continuing to spend money on this program and the time on the classes.
The veterinary experience will definitely help your application, but that is not the only part that factors into everything. It's a crazy process and emphasis is placed on different areas depending on the school. GPAs/GRE's, LORs and extracurriculars are all important.
Ultimately only you can make the choice, but I'd definitely talk to Clemson first and verify everything and then look at what is the most cost efficient way to proceed.
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So there are some threads that talk about why it isn't worth doing a vet tech program before vet school:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/vet-tech-worth-getting.683562/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...erience-before-applying-to-vet-school.784595/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...before-applying-to-veterinary-school.1091974/
In your case, it doesn't sound like you can start working on vet school specific prerequisites until you're at Clemson. The first two years in your vet tech program might be a waste of classes (and many people get ample experience working as non-certified vet assistants during the summer or school years).
In my opinion, the advisors just seem to be pushing their program. Two anecdotes does not evidence make. Maybe the person who left to go to a university did not get in because she bombed her GRE. Sounds to me like the 2+2 program is needlessly extra work if you're deadset on becoming a veterinarian.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/vet-tech-worth-getting.683562/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...erience-before-applying-to-vet-school.784595/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...before-applying-to-veterinary-school.1091974/
In your case, it doesn't sound like you can start working on vet school specific prerequisites until you're at Clemson. The first two years in your vet tech program might be a waste of classes (and many people get ample experience working as non-certified vet assistants during the summer or school years).
In my opinion, the advisors just seem to be pushing their program. Two anecdotes does not evidence make. Maybe the person who left to go to a university did not get in because she bombed her GRE. Sounds to me like the 2+2 program is needlessly extra work if you're deadset on becoming a veterinarian.
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I second Orca, definitely contact Clemson and see if everything will transfer properly.
In general, most vet-tech classes don't really count for pre-reqs(there are some exceptions of course), so it might not hurt to look at the curriculum with the 2+2 and make sure it fits with the pre-reqs that are required at the vet school(s) you are looking at.
In general, most vet-tech classes don't really count for pre-reqs(there are some exceptions of course), so it might not hurt to look at the curriculum with the 2+2 and make sure it fits with the pre-reqs that are required at the vet school(s) you are looking at.
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Even if the vet tech classes will transfer to Clemson, you may as well just directly pursue what interests you. If you're no longer interested in becoming a vet tech, just drop the program and start taking your pre-reqs for vet school now. You can still get veterinary experience outside of a tech program - that's how the majority of people get their experience - it's just more on your shoulders to find the places. It also means you can branch out and get experience outside of just small animal medicine, like zoos, large animals, equine, research, wildlife, etc. In the end, it may be easier to get experience through the tech program, but is it really worth the two extra years of tuition? Not in my opinion, but that's up to you.
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The problem with the whole "that one got in and that other one didn't" is that the implied reason (tech vs not tech) might not - and probably didn't - have much to do with it.
You need to evaluate YOUR application and decide if you would be a competitive applicant. The majority of people in vet school are not former techs (at least, degreed) ... and we all got in.
I occasionally feel .... jealous isn't the right word .... but something like that .... at my comparative lack of skills coming into school. But big deal - I took a job on the blood donor team and worked in critical care during my didactic years, and I'm comfortable with my skills now. And on the flip side, I didn't come into vet school with an "I already know all this" attitude that quite a surprising number of the tech-now-vet-students seemed to have. For some of them it's been a detriment to learning because they seem to feel like they're already vets ... they just need the degree, now. For sure not all of them, but it's a noticeable population.
I'd be careful about saying you want to "make more of yourself" ... I know what you meant, but there's an implied condescension in the phrase. If there's one thing I've learned it's that good techs make the clinic go 'round and make your life a bajillion times easier ... and bad techs make your day awful. They're critical partners in providing care - not "lesser" participants, like "make more of yourself" implies. My ass has been saved on more than one occasion by a sharp, observant tech who caught some stupid mistake I made because I was going on 20 hours in the hospital without a break. Just sayin'.
If it were me, I'd go the cheapest route that you confidently think will get you into school.
You need to evaluate YOUR application and decide if you would be a competitive applicant. The majority of people in vet school are not former techs (at least, degreed) ... and we all got in.
I occasionally feel .... jealous isn't the right word .... but something like that .... at my comparative lack of skills coming into school. But big deal - I took a job on the blood donor team and worked in critical care during my didactic years, and I'm comfortable with my skills now. And on the flip side, I didn't come into vet school with an "I already know all this" attitude that quite a surprising number of the tech-now-vet-students seemed to have. For some of them it's been a detriment to learning because they seem to feel like they're already vets ... they just need the degree, now. For sure not all of them, but it's a noticeable population.
I'd be careful about saying you want to "make more of yourself" ... I know what you meant, but there's an implied condescension in the phrase. If there's one thing I've learned it's that good techs make the clinic go 'round and make your life a bajillion times easier ... and bad techs make your day awful. They're critical partners in providing care - not "lesser" participants, like "make more of yourself" implies. My ass has been saved on more than one occasion by a sharp, observant tech who caught some stupid mistake I made because I was going on 20 hours in the hospital without a break. Just sayin'.
If it were me, I'd go the cheapest route that you confidently think will get you into school.
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If it were me, I'd go the cheapest route that you confidently think will get you into school.
Yes, that right there really sums it all up!
I went to a summer VETS program at Penn last summer and one of the other girls there was going to school to be a tech, and then was going to do her pre-reqs. The admissions counselors flat out asked her why she was wasting her time.
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Here's my two cents.
I went to a 2 year AS degree vet tech school right out of high school. My experience at the school motivated me to complete my internship at a research facility (rather than a SA clinic). I could not be more thankful for this experience as it led me on my research path and gave me an different understanding and skills of the animal models I was working with compared to some other folks in the lab. It also motivated me to obtain my BS (started from scratch). And now I work two jobs, one at a vet clinic and one as a research assistant in a Multiple Sclerosis lab.
That said, yes it was extra money (about $20k) that isn't necessary for vet experience, but I wouldn't change it as it led me to where I am now and I feel, strengthened me as a person. I didn't know I wanted to go to vet school until this last year, so that is something to also keep in and since you know this already. I also did okay in vet school (3.2 average GPA). The time there allowed me to develop my study skills and as a result, my grades for my undergrad are much improved to a 3.8 (blame the young, naive thing perhaps?) and as I already mentioned, led me to the path I am now and gave me a TON of opportunities. Now I have applied for my first time for vet school and I am overall glad I did it. What you need to do is see if you think it is right for you. Know all sides and decide ultimately if it is something you should keep pursuing or go straight for the pre-reqs for vet school as other mentioned. I just waned to present a different side to it. I hope this helps.
I went to a 2 year AS degree vet tech school right out of high school. My experience at the school motivated me to complete my internship at a research facility (rather than a SA clinic). I could not be more thankful for this experience as it led me on my research path and gave me an different understanding and skills of the animal models I was working with compared to some other folks in the lab. It also motivated me to obtain my BS (started from scratch). And now I work two jobs, one at a vet clinic and one as a research assistant in a Multiple Sclerosis lab.
That said, yes it was extra money (about $20k) that isn't necessary for vet experience, but I wouldn't change it as it led me to where I am now and I feel, strengthened me as a person. I didn't know I wanted to go to vet school until this last year, so that is something to also keep in and since you know this already. I also did okay in vet school (3.2 average GPA). The time there allowed me to develop my study skills and as a result, my grades for my undergrad are much improved to a 3.8 (blame the young, naive thing perhaps?) and as I already mentioned, led me to the path I am now and gave me a TON of opportunities. Now I have applied for my first time for vet school and I am overall glad I did it. What you need to do is see if you think it is right for you. Know all sides and decide ultimately if it is something you should keep pursuing or go straight for the pre-reqs for vet school as other mentioned. I just waned to present a different side to it. I hope this helps.
Wow, thank you all so much for your helpful responses! I am definitely going to contact Clemson about the 2+2 program to make sure everything adds up to what I've been told. Right now, I have two scholarships that allow me to go to my current school for free (I actually get paid to go there), so staying at my there would probably be the most cost efficient thing for me. Nonetheless, I would much rather pay to go to a university if it will be more beneficial in the long run! They did say that I can complete some of the pre-reqs for Clemson at my school if I want to, so that might be an option as well. I will let you guys know when I get more info! All of your help is SO appreciated
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I'd be careful about saying you want to "make more of yourself" ... I know what you meant, but there's an implied condescension in the phrase. If there's one thing I've learned it's that good techs make the clinic go 'round and make your life a bajillion times easier ... and bad techs make your day awful. They're critical partners in providing care - not "lesser" participants, like "make more of yourself" implies. My ass has been saved on more than one occasion by a sharp, observant tech who caught some stupid mistake I made because I was going on 20 hours in the hospital without a break. Just sayin'.
If it were me, I'd go the cheapest route that you confidently think will get you into school.
I think you should evaluate why you want to be a vet verses technician.
The whole hospital is a team and you need to decide which player you want to be because of your interests not because you think a technician is better than a receptionist and a vet is better than a technician.
A good technician is NOT going to work for a vet that thinks they are all that and everyone else is not good enough.
That's just a bad attitude.
So do you want to do surgery and use the information your techs give you? Or do you want to be the nurse, the phlebotomist, the one running the bloodwork, the one taking radiographs, the anesthesiologist, etc.
It's not one is better than the other it's which is a better fit for you.
What's going to stop you from becoming a vet and then feeling that your not good enough because its more prestigious to be a human doctor?
Also my tech classes transferred but you need to look into it yourself. Never just take someone's word for it.
Is there another reason you want to quit the tech program? Family pressure? Don't like a teacher?
Think about the debt to income issue.
Tech 36,000/year ( no need for malpractice insurance) student debt from associates 30,000. Loan payment on IBR of maybe 150-200/ month.
Verses up to 300,000 in debt and starting salaries only 20-30000 more a year? After you make your loan payments you will be making what the tech makes...
And job prospects. As a tech ( in part due to attrition ) I have never had a problem finding a job.
I think the percent of new vets funding jobs is 60-70% right now?
But yeah. Think hard about why you want to be a vet because wanting to be better than another career is a bad reason.
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Wow, thank you all so much for your helpful responses! I am definitely going to contact Clemson about the 2+2 program to make sure everything adds up to what I've been told. Right now, I have two scholarships that allow me to go to my current school for free (I actually get paid to go there), so staying at my there would probably be the most cost efficient thing for me. Nonetheless, I would much rather pay to go to a university if it will be more beneficial in the long run! They did say that I can complete some of the pre-reqs for Clemson at my school if I want to, so that might be an option as well. I will let you guys know when I get more info! All of your help is SO appreciated
If its free...and the classes transfer I'd stay put and get as many pre-reqs done while you are there.
Save your money now because debt adds up fast with interest..
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If it's free due to scholarship, I will recommend to stay where you are as well. You can gain a great amount of experience as vet assistant and research experience through college/labs around.
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I'm a CVT and just graduated in August 2014. I was in the same boat as you. I wasn't sure if I wanted to take it all the way. I am SO glad I did the vet tech program. It knocked two years off my bachelors because classes transferred. I will have 2 degrees in 4 years. I am now working part time as a CVT in an awesome hospital and I have over 3 years of experience in a clinic. I am confident in my pharmacology, terminology, and anatomy and physiology skills/knowledge and feel that I am prepared for my undergrad classes and vet school. I am not saying I know everything though. I just bought my own Plumb's pharmacology manual and literally read a drug every night. I constantly ask questions and seek new information.
I personally am VERY glad I got my associates in VT. It was such a great experience and I got to work with animals I never handled before like rats, horses, and turtles.
Good luck in whatever you choose!
I personally am VERY glad I got my associates in VT. It was such a great experience and I got to work with animals I never handled before like rats, horses, and turtles.
Good luck in whatever you choose!
Since everyone else is putting in their two cents....
I went to a University to earn my bachelors straight from H.S. Once graduated, I took a year off and then attended a vet tech program and earned my associates (graduating June 2014). I was licensed by Sep 2014. Fall 2015, I'll be attending veterinary school.
Do I wish I'd gotten into vet school straight from college? In some ways, yes. But in A LOT of ways, I wouldn't change a thing (in fact I was asked this during my interview). I chose to earn my associates not necessarily to become an RVT, but because I wanted to be more knowledgeable. I've heard all of the discussion about how RVTs and DVMs have different roles and blah blah, but I cannot imagine how getting more education can be harmful. I'm definitely not entering vet school with a know-it-all attitude, but I do feel prepared. As long as you're willing to spend the time and expenses, I say go for it!
I went to a University to earn my bachelors straight from H.S. Once graduated, I took a year off and then attended a vet tech program and earned my associates (graduating June 2014). I was licensed by Sep 2014. Fall 2015, I'll be attending veterinary school.
Do I wish I'd gotten into vet school straight from college? In some ways, yes. But in A LOT of ways, I wouldn't change a thing (in fact I was asked this during my interview). I chose to earn my associates not necessarily to become an RVT, but because I wanted to be more knowledgeable. I've heard all of the discussion about how RVTs and DVMs have different roles and blah blah, but I cannot imagine how getting more education can be harmful. I'm definitely not entering vet school with a know-it-all attitude, but I do feel prepared. As long as you're willing to spend the time and expenses, I say go for it!
I'm not sure if you fully understand what a 2+2 agreement is. This is a contract between two schools to honor courses. Since Tri-County Tech and Clemson have a 2+2 Agreement the courses listed in the agreement will absolutely transfer. They have to transfer because there is a contract between the schools. You will actually have to a sign a contract yourself to be part of the 2+2 program before you complete a certain number of credits. If you haven't already done so then you may not qualify for the 2+2 agreement just because you are part of the vet tech program that has the agreement. The agreement and the courses are easily found online. However, you should be aware that the agreement between TCTC and Clemson is into business based animal science programs. You will have to take a few additional courses (a chem, for sure) to met the standards of admission to veterinary schools. I do not necessarily think this should be a deterrent since taking a few additional courses is no huge obstacle.
There are some additional things you need to consider. I know a lot of girls who have a BS in Animal and Veterinary Sciences from Clemson who started at Clemson with every intention of going on to become a vet. For a variety of reasons most of them aren't going to continue on to become vets. I know of 1 girl who is now a waitress/dog breeder because she "just can't euthanize animals." I know of another girl who just got her BS but she is so pathetically obsessed with her veterinarian bf (who has zero interest in marrying her) that she can't bring herself to move away from him to go to vet school. (Please don't become her.) Several of my Clemson grad friends are now working as (unlicensed) Veterinary Assistants in the Upstate. Some clinics even call their assistants techs. They just don't pay them the same rates. Despite having a BS they are not eligible to sit for tech licensing exams. Since an LVT can legally do more in a clinic, a tech with just an AS will always make more money than a "mere" assistant who has a BS, but can't do as much. There are several others who are now at Trident and TCTC doing vet tech programs because they aren't going on to become vets, but want to be more than assistants.
Having a BS is valuable for a lot of animal science fields. Having a BS without a licence to practice as a tech (or veterinarian) isn't always very helpful in the veterinary field. If you think there is any chance that you may end up like my friends/their friends who have either not gotten into vet school, changed their minds or who may end up married/pregnant and unable to move away to a veterinary college then definitely stay with TCTC and get your LVT then do your BS.
Also, you need to start learning as much as you can about VMCAS and admission requirements to Colleges of Veterinary Medicine NOW. Do NOT wait until you are ready to start applying to vet schools to start. In doing so you will discover that while admission to vet schools is competitive a bachelor degree is not required at many schools, and there are a number of 2 year institutions that have pre-vet programs that will check all the boxes. TCTC actually has a 2 year pre-vet option (not part of the vet tech program).
Learn about the VMCAS talk to someone at Clemson. You can also contact the schools where you would like to attend Veterinary Medical College.
There are some additional things you need to consider. I know a lot of girls who have a BS in Animal and Veterinary Sciences from Clemson who started at Clemson with every intention of going on to become a vet. For a variety of reasons most of them aren't going to continue on to become vets. I know of 1 girl who is now a waitress/dog breeder because she "just can't euthanize animals." I know of another girl who just got her BS but she is so pathetically obsessed with her veterinarian bf (who has zero interest in marrying her) that she can't bring herself to move away from him to go to vet school. (Please don't become her.) Several of my Clemson grad friends are now working as (unlicensed) Veterinary Assistants in the Upstate. Some clinics even call their assistants techs. They just don't pay them the same rates. Despite having a BS they are not eligible to sit for tech licensing exams. Since an LVT can legally do more in a clinic, a tech with just an AS will always make more money than a "mere" assistant who has a BS, but can't do as much. There are several others who are now at Trident and TCTC doing vet tech programs because they aren't going on to become vets, but want to be more than assistants.
Having a BS is valuable for a lot of animal science fields. Having a BS without a licence to practice as a tech (or veterinarian) isn't always very helpful in the veterinary field. If you think there is any chance that you may end up like my friends/their friends who have either not gotten into vet school, changed their minds or who may end up married/pregnant and unable to move away to a veterinary college then definitely stay with TCTC and get your LVT then do your BS.
Also, you need to start learning as much as you can about VMCAS and admission requirements to Colleges of Veterinary Medicine NOW. Do NOT wait until you are ready to start applying to vet schools to start. In doing so you will discover that while admission to vet schools is competitive a bachelor degree is not required at many schools, and there are a number of 2 year institutions that have pre-vet programs that will check all the boxes. TCTC actually has a 2 year pre-vet option (not part of the vet tech program).
Learn about the VMCAS talk to someone at Clemson. You can also contact the schools where you would like to attend Veterinary Medical College.
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Just to be clear, do NOT assume that just because you're the vet that you won't be the one being the nurse, the phlebotomist, the one running the blood work, the one taking radiographs, the anesthesiologist, etc. in addition to all your duties as a veterinarian. It might just be the area I am located in, but regular vet practices around here only hire high school graduates to work in the vet hospitals. In 15 years, I have never worked anywhere that would hire a certified tech. They get high school grads and train them on the job. They do this because the owners can get away with paying them crap and therefore keep more profit for themselves. Every once in a great while, one of these kids ends up being bright and a super assistant. The vast majority are mediocre and you just cannot trust them with anything that really matters, so you end up having to do it yourself. And sometimes these kids are so dense that they are downright dangerous to your patients. Unfortunately, the bright ones don't stay long and end up going back to school to better themselves. One fantastic assistant I worked with years ago is now in law school, for example. The really scary part is that every single employer I have ever had insists on calling these kids "vet techs" so clients have no clue that they have no formal education in the area. Several times, I have seen clients ask these kids, "Where did you get your degree? My daughter is interested in this field." The kids immediately tell them that they didn't go anywhere and just learned on the job. You should see the faces on these poor people - total shock. As an associate, I have no control over this. The only thing I can do is give my patients the best care I can, and usually that means I need to do it myself. Otherwise, I am faced with telling a client that something horrible happened because a kid who barely managed to graduate from high school was doing something involving their pet's medical care and did it wrong. If you're a vet and you care about your patients and you work in a place like this (and there are a lot of them), you have no ethical choice other than to take on a lot of this supposed tech work yourself. Jobs are scarce now for vets and will likely continue to be so in the future. You could very easily end up in a practice like this yourself. Just don't assume you will have trained people to do these duties for you. You could get a very nasty surprise.
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I want to point out a misconception in this post. First off, while I agree that the debt for a tech is 30,000 or so total, you have to look at location averages for yearly salary. It is not 36,000 where I am at and the IBR for most of the techs I know and have worked with is not 150-200 a month. Moreover, the average vet school debt is not 300,000. That's definitely on the farther end of the spectrum, sure, but not the average. The average is in fact half that with an IBR of about 1100-1500 a month it seems. One of the techs I know is on IBR, has been working for 12 years, and hasn't made a single payment on her tech loans because she doesn't make enough. Keep in mind that things change region from region. And where is the statistic of new jobs coming from? I can't find anything that low.
Again, this is another situation where it depends region by region. Where I am at, you do not have to be an RVT/LVT/CVT to legally do anything and a work trained tech can in fact make more than a school trained tech depending on multiple factors, including work ethic and experience. A work trained tech can do everything a school trained tech can in my state. The only things they cannot do are strictly reserved for veterinarians: diagnose, prescribe, surgery, and give a prognosis.
Sounds like this to me.
If you wanted to be a human doctor, would you go to school to be a nurse first?
Veterinarians are DOCTORS.
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I think @TigerTech makes a valid point, especially regarding the AVS degree at Clemson. If you somehow don't feel like things would work out for you as vet, you still have the Tech degree as a "back-up." If things go wrong after you've completed the 2+2 program, for some reason, you are still licensed, which can still give you somewhat of an advantage over some of the AVS BS grads.
It's something worth thinking about before choosing to hop out of the program, imho.
That being said, don't feel that tech's are "lesser." In a good clinic, you learn that everyone plays an important piece of the puzzle and everyone's job is valuable. Prestige alone is a hardly a good reason to chase after the veterinarian career these days.
It's something worth thinking about before choosing to hop out of the program, imho.
That being said, don't feel that tech's are "lesser." In a good clinic, you learn that everyone plays an important piece of the puzzle and everyone's job is valuable. Prestige alone is a hardly a good reason to chase after the veterinarian career these days.
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I don't know where Peppermittwist is from, but I happen to be in the region - even the same county - as the person who posted this question. I do not know a single tech graduating from TCTC (the school this poster is asking about) who will have ANY student loans. Everyone that I know who completed the AAS program and obtained their LVT received enough grants to pay for their tuition and books. Only those with previous degrees had debt.
I do not know a single veterinarian who graduated with less than 250k in debt. Although, all of the - many - veterinarians that I know are doing very well financially. Homes, loans and practices are now paid for. Obviously, they've been out of school for a good while now.
In the state that this person is posting from an unlicensed tech cannot do that same things as a licensed tech. The difference is large and the pay represents such.
Please, keep in mind that I only posted my response because I know literally dozens of students who have attended college as pre-vet students who did not continue on to veterinary school. I work with assistants every day who, despite having a BS, are neither techs nor vets. Many of them now regret their decision since some of them are to returning to the local technical college and study for an AAS to qualify to take the boards (or doing online programs). I'm NOT saying that going to a 4 year and doing pre-vet is a bad option. I just know so many people that didn't continue on that I think having a backup plan is an excellent idea.
My main point being that the poster does not have an adequate understanding of the 2+2 program between the schools, which would allow her to become an LVT and do the pre-vet program in the exact same amount of time as just doing a BS for pre-vet. It is a win-win, especially if their is uncertainty in her future. It is a totally valid option to just go straight to Clemson and do pre-vet! However, I think the person just needs to fully understand their options and I think they're being badly advised by their advisors at both schools.
It is also not necessarily a bad thing to be a licensed tech since having high hopes of attending vet school doesn't guarantee that you will get in the first year that you apply.
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Do the clients know that their pets are being used as pin cushions to train these kids? I asked a local veterinarian who has a few techs on staff but mostly just has kids like you describe and his response was negative. I was appalled.
The situation you describe is exactly why the national/state tech associations are pushing so hard to make illegal for unlicensed techs to perform the same tasks. I have even read that there is pressure in our state to make it a legal requirement that every veterinarian has to employee a licensed tech. I understand the financial issues at stake. I just can't understand all the resistance to it considering that techs and assistants both work under their veterinarian's license. If the tech screws up then at least they'll take some of the heat from the vet med examiners board. Techs can also have their own malpractice insurance. They're are a lot of benefits for just training your techs but, IMHO, more for having a licensed tech that graduated from a brick and mortar school.
I hope that one day you will have your own practice since you seem genuinely interested in the quality of care provided.
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If you wanted to become an MD but could complete your pre-med degree and an RN program at the same time (with less debt) why wouldn't it be a valid option for students?
People have to make smart decisions if they have any doubt about their future or their current finances require creative thinking.
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Something isn't adding up here. Someone who had been out long enough to have homes, loans, and practices paid for is like way too old to have had vet school debt of over >$250k...
No vet I know who has graduated with >$250k in debt has had their student loans paid off regardless of how long they have been out... And certainly not mortgages and practice loans on top of that.
Plus there are plenty of vets that have graduated with <$250k in debt... so while I'm in favor of being very candid about the financial issues present in this profession, let's keep it a little more real here.
Graduating from school 10 years ago is plenty long enough to have your loans, home and practice paid off if you have a successful practice. I recently checked the deed polls in the counties nearby to check on average practice mortgage debt only to discover that a local (very successful) veterinarian paid off his 600k (and change) practice loan in less than 5 years. I am keeping it real. I don't assume I know every veterinarian in the country but I do know many from this region.
If you're curious about what your debt may look like google the names of your local veterinarians and look them up on deed polls. Mortgages and business loans will show up. Not everyone is paying off half a mil in debt in a decade but you'd be shocked at how many are. Location matters just as much as your debt ratio.
If you're curious about what your debt may look like google the names of your local veterinarians and look them up on deed polls. Mortgages and business loans will show up. Not everyone is paying off half a mil in debt in a decade but you'd be shocked at how many are. Location matters just as much as your debt ratio.
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You do not need to be a licensed vet tech to get into vet school. Also, I completely agree with LIS in regards to comments made about licensed vet techs in vet school (the good and the bad).
I would look at possible vet schools that you think you would apply to and consider the following:
-look at their requirements for coursework
-contact their admission counselor and see what advice they have
-find the areas of overlap and follow them
Also I am not sure if this was brought up, but I would not count on the hours you spend becoming a LVT to be a replacement for the hours of experience you need to get into vet school. You would still need to take all the pre-req classes and in addition get a wide variety of experiences.
Honestly, I would just go take the necessary classes to get into vet school and forego the vet tech program. It is a lot of extra money that could be used to get into vet school and pay for school.
I would look at possible vet schools that you think you would apply to and consider the following:
-look at their requirements for coursework
-contact their admission counselor and see what advice they have
-find the areas of overlap and follow them
Also I am not sure if this was brought up, but I would not count on the hours you spend becoming a LVT to be a replacement for the hours of experience you need to get into vet school. You would still need to take all the pre-req classes and in addition get a wide variety of experiences.
Honestly, I would just go take the necessary classes to get into vet school and forego the vet tech program. It is a lot of extra money that could be used to get into vet school and pay for school.
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10 years ago most of them didn't have have $250k in debt - that would have been the exception. At the present time, the average debt <among those graduating with debt; and approx 10% don't graduate with debt> is $140k (give or take).
So what that means is that approximately 55% of graduates are below $140k and 45% are above $140k. Your comment about not knowing a single veterinarian graduating with less than $250k in debt may be true (I don't know how many vets you know), but it's also not representative and is misleading. Definitely people graduate with that much debt now, but it's not even remotely close to the majority, like you're implying.
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This entire post is why I emphasized that things change region by region. None of the 3 vet tech programs in Colorado offer enough money to their students for all of them to graduate loan free. Most do not get any scholarships whatsoever. Even people just getting a certification for a vet assistant are graduating with debt all all three institutions.
As far as the back up plans, I agree that a back up plan is imperative. However, I think that needs to be considered early on in looking at your future options. I don't really understand why people wouldn't go for an initial degree plan that allows for their back up plan. The OP is a first semester college student, so this is the perfect time to consider it. For the people getting a 4 year BS, that major should coincide with a long term backup plan. If this OP's very first backup plan is to become a tech, then doing a program where they get their tech degree and then transfer their credits to finish out the prereqs would be a decent idea. The thing is for me, vet tech programs are expensive and I would never count on money I don't have in the bank. I never assumed I had any of the scholarships I applied for until I had the letter saying exactly how much I had. Just because no one you know graduated with debt, doesn't mean there aren't people who did. I just don't think becoming a tech is necessarily the best backup plan compared to others that can be done with a BS.
I can completely understand the opposition. I know plenty of work trained techs that are better in every way than the school trained techs. It saved the tech money and time to get the same exact skill sets as techs that spent money to get the same experience. Are there somethings easier to learn in a classroom setting? Sure, the actual memorization and such I bet is easier in that setting. But learning to hit a vein? No. Look at some veterinarians. They can't hit a vein to save their lives because it is a practice thing. Those vets let their techs do it, so they never practice. If anyone is qualified to do the technical skills, it would be the veterinarian.
Moreover, your phrase, "Do the clients know that their pets are being used as pin cushions to train these kids?" That is exactly how techs are trained in school!!! They eventually will start to have to use live animals as "pin cushions". Whether the cushion is in a tech school or a vet clinic is irrelevant. People have to learn some how and do it for real. I learned how to hit a vein on a 15 year old cat that was owned by the vet when we were getting her ready for her dental. It took me three tries, and the head tech and he both understood why. I had never done it before so she was my first "victim". Everyone has to go through that some time, whether they are work or school trained.
This, "there is pressure in our state to make it a legal requirement that every veterinarian has to employee a licensed tech," is something I would NEVER be okay with as an employer. Within reason, the government has no right to tell me who to hire to work in my business. Within vet med, there is no reason that a work trained tech cannot be as good as a school trained tech, so there is no reason for such a regulation. If the tech screws up, the veterinarian would still be responsible, whether they are school or work trained. The vet should have the right to hire who they want.
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If you take a poll of all veterinarians who graduated with >$250k in debt, I would be shocked if more than 5% of them are as fortunate as you describe.
Yes, I'm sure it's possible if you can launch that successful a practice early in your career... But that is not representative of what is possible for a vast majority of people.
I personally know people who are my age (30) and have started their own businesses or have gotten great jobs and are now millionaires with only a bachelor's degree. It is certainly possible, and I know enough people to know it does actually happen. But that does not mean that is representative of college grads in general. It is also not wise to use these anecdotes for career advice for high schoolers and tell them that it is a great idea to go to a super expensive college they can't afford just because i know some people for which that decision paid off.
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In addition to batsenecal's post (although I'm not sure how many tech schools use client-owned pets to train students in the early stages), I wouldn't assume that clinics training techs on the job leads to pets being used as pincushions. I work as an assistant/unlicensed tech, and the vet who owns the clinic won't allow most of us to stick animals with needles other than giving insulin injections, or giving SQ fluids when the client isn't present. One of my co-workers is going through Penn Foster's tech program, and she's allowed to draw blood when the client isn't around, but none of the rest of us are, and none of us are allowed to place catheters. We never give vaccines, or even draw them up for the vet (which is weird to me). Most of us have our bachelor's degrees or are in the process of getting one, but a couple have worked there for years and only went to community college (not for a vet tech program, and I'm not even sure if they got their associates at all). I haven't worked with enough licensed techs to really say how our skills compare as far as what we are allowed to do.
I haven't fully researched the laws in my state to know what unlicensed techs are allowed to do, so I'm not sure how much of this is the clinic owner wanting to keep control/avoid liability and how much is the law, but I was definitely allowed to draw up and occasionally give vaccines (not rabies) at my previous assistant job in this same area. That vet definitely trusted me with many more duties much more quickly. The clinic owner I work for now is very frugal, so it definitely wouldn't surprise me if she's reluctant to hire unlicensed techs so that she can get away with continuing to pay us barely above minimum wage. I have no idea if my co-worker will be getting a raise once she completes the tech program.
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I'm just curious how you think veterinary students are trained in venipuncture/other techniques? I did my first nasogastric tube on a client-owned animal. Also my first IVC, thoracocentesis, etc. etc....
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And my first spay (as my first ever abdominal surgery)! Pin cushion doesn't even describe it...
The owner apparently didn't realize that a student was doing the spay. When I discharged her and showed the owner the incision to go over what to look for, he proceeded to tell me how his regular vet butchered his other dog with a huge and ugly incision... and that is why he always brings his dogs to the academic hospital now where the best surgeons are cutting... Ahahahaha. I was super flattered but it was awkward.
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Yeah. I cut my first GDV a few weeks after graduation. I may have lots of weaknesses and disadvantages, but one advantage to being older is that people assume you've been practicing for the last two decades. When I discharged the GDV (which did great, btw), the owner made a comment about being grateful there was an "experienced vet working [the night they came in]."
Hahahahahahahahaha. Yeah. I just smiled and nodded and walked back to my computer.
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This. Also, I learned a lot of my technical skills from working before school and I was pretty much never allowed more than 3 tries for venipuncture while learning. This is still pretty much the rule in the hospital with the CVTs. You get three sticks and then you tag out. Pincushion is a pretty harsh way to describe it...most of the time. I'm sure it happens at some practices, but I was never allowed to just stab willy nilly. Someone was always around and instructing me when I was learning.
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I had so many firsts these past two weeks working with horses. All of them were with the vet right there guiding me and all of them were with the client and owner watching as well.
Firsts happen, you have to learn. Doesn't matter if you are an 18 year old putting in an IV catheter for the first time as a tech/assistant or a 24-50 year old doing your first splenectomy as a vet.
Firsts happen, you have to learn. Doesn't matter if you are an 18 year old putting in an IV catheter for the first time as a tech/assistant or a 24-50 year old doing your first splenectomy as a vet.
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Clients would have hated me then. Or perhaps not. I was 17 when I was trained to draw blood and place IV catheters. One of the techs there had rigged up a fake leg for new techs/assistants to "practice" on a few times before trying on animals. It wasn't anywhere near the same as a real animal, but it at least got people used to how to hold the syringe/needle and to become comfortable with form. I was placing IV catheters at 17. We never were allowed more than two sticks for either drawing blood or placing catheters. They aren't having kids come in off the street and handing them needles and saying "keep poking until you get something". You are supervised. Just like you are supervised in vet school. Heck I have easily placed hundreds of IV catheters without stepping foot into a vet tech school and prior to ever stepping into vet school. I still get supervised in vet school. Why? Because they don't know who does or does not have prior experience. Also, there are 23142 ways to do different things so they are there for guidance. Even if your way has worked for many, many moons, sometimes there are some nuggets of golden wisdom that you have never heard before that can make a task easier.
I get tired of hearing the whole licensed tech vs on the job trained tech argument over and over. As someone who spent many years in the business every licensed tech I ever met sucked at the job. Every single one. Every single one was fired at some point and ended jumping from clinic to clinic as they kept getting fired everywhere they went. The licensed techs made more errors and mistakes than any on the job trained tech ever did. The only licensed tech that I have met that was "good" was someone who started working at the clinic at the exact same time she started vet tech school. So she was being trained on the job during the time she was taking tech classes. And she flat out admitted that she learned way more at work than she did while at school. It was a very blatantly obvious difference between licensed vs. on the job trained techs. Yes, I know, anecdotal evidence and all. But 7 years in 5 clinics and I saw the same trend in every single one (and no I didn't quit at a clinic or get fired and then work in this many, I had a main clinic I worked at and floated to others when they needed help and I was off at my main clinic). May just be my experience, but that is what I have seen. To me, the good on the job trained techs are much more common than a good licensed tech. You get bad in both, but I have seen way more bad in licensed techs. Maybe this happens because just because you make it through vet tech school, doesn't mean you will be good in the real world as a tech. Whereas if you are trained on the job and you are just not picking up on things or doing well, you will be let go, so those on the job trained techs that have been there for 6 months to a year or longer are actually really damn good at what they do or they would have been fired. Again, this is my experience so your mileage may vary, but with my experience I'd much rather have an on the job trained tech with a good few years of experience than a licensed tech. Again, to each their own.
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I mean, I respect that this is your opinion based on your experiences, but I feel like you might be passing an unfair judgment on licensed techs... I wonder if there was something about the way your hospital was hiring licensed techs that led to getting a lot of the bad ones? I too was on the job trained starting from when I was 17, and I consider myself pretty awesome. And I've worked with many on the job trained assistants who are amazing, that I trust with pretty much anything I would trust a licensed tech to do. Attitude, general competence, and attention to detail I think is what determines how good a tech/assistant is rather than whether or not they have a degree. But I would not say they are necessarily better than licensed techs overall.
If you consider all the licensed techs working in academic teaching hospitals across the country, as well as many many ERs and specialty hospitals (not that they don't hire unlicensed assistants but usually fewer or them), there are so many highly competent licensed techs out there. Heck, I would trust the anesthesia techs at the teaching hospital way more with formulating a balanced anesthesia plan than most veterinarians out there. I've been working in a few environments since graduation, where at least half of the tech staff were licensed for each clinic. Aside from some exceptions with a couple of the stellar long term on the job trained assistants, and the couple of newly minted licensed techs who are still learning, the licensed techs in these environments are definitely more capable/knowledgeable. I don't think in my case, this is at all due to the formal schooling. It has a lot more to do with the fact that many of the licensed techs are committed long term to their career, whereas many of the on the job trained assistants are more transient. A majority of the licensed techs have been on the job for 5-15 years. Very few of the assistants have been. And a majority will leave before they've been working long enough to catch up to the stellar licensed techs. They either find something else better to do, go to another hospital, go to tech school, or go to vet school.
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Could have been hiring practices or maybe something with the tech schools in that area. I don't know. In my experience, the licensed techs have actually made horrible errors more repeatedly and frequently than any on the job trained tech I worked with, a few resulting in death of a patient. So maybe it is a bias of the area that I was working in. Very possible and most likely to be the case. But I see repeatedly on these forums people state that they can't believe anyone would hire an unlicensed tech for whatever various reasons. But if I reverse it and state the opposite based upon my experience it is "unfair judgment". No one has claimed it is "unfair judgment" to say the reverse about on the job trained techs. Yeah, maybe someone has had only horrible experiences with on the job trained techs and so that is why they have the judgment, but if the reverse is true it becomes "unfair judgment". Kind of a bit hypocritical?
Bottom line is that it is about competency, attention to detail, attitude and communication. It does not matter if the tech is licensed or not if they continue to make the same mistakes, lack basic common sense and can't communicate to save their lives.
And I agree that there are many licensed techs that are amazing all over the country in various locations, otherwise there wouldn't be so many in teaching hospitals. I haven't really had any rotations yet that involve close work with a licensed tech, kind of got into rotations starting off without techs. So I am looking forward to working with the licensed techs once I get to those rotations. It would be nice to actually see some good ones compared to what I have been exposed to. And some of the specialty trained techs are going to be really damn good at what they do. I don't see any reason for anyone to make a claim that it is absurd for vets to hire techs that are not licensed. As long as the tech is competent, has a good attitude, is willing to learn, can communicate with clients and pays attention to detail then they are going to be an amazing asset to that clinic regardless of if they have a degree or not.
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My best tech right now is a CVT. The tech I just fired (in Feb) was on the job trained. My other excellent tech is on the job trained. My third tech is a CVT that needs some work. It really just depends on the person.
I'm not sure if you realize that most CVTs must have on the job training as part of their coursework. The AVMA requires it.
I'm not sure if you realize that most CVTs must have on the job training as part of their coursework. The AVMA requires it.
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I'm aware. We have taken on a few of them for this work.
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so then you should be able to see how even though your experiences suggest otherwise, it really just depends on the attitude and skill of the individual.
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Yes and I stated as such above. I am still perplexed by the sheer number of licensed techs we have had in that area that are just plain bad. It should be equal between the two groups, but there is a heavy bias towards the licensed techs being worse.
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I will also say that some places hire CVTs just to have CVTs. And when I worked in the corporate world they were the worst techs. But they weren't very happy with their positions and were really just working there to work somewhere until they could get a better job
And corporate was hiring them just because they had a certification/license.
And corporate was hiring them just because they had a certification/license.
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No need to be so sensitive. I don't think it's hypocritical as I never affirmed the opposing view. The reason why I didn't respond to the opposing view but I made a comment about your view being an unfair judgment? Because I expect a more balanced view from someone like you who has experience in the field and I consider a mentor to others. I truly think that your comment was unfair and probably hurtful.
The comments that some pre-vets make about how a licensed tech is more worthy than an on the job trained assistant are just so damn stupid they make my eyes roll and I don't even bother replying. I figure there are enough techs/assistants on the forum that will be fired up enough about it to go into it (am I right?). No need to beat a dead horse. It doesn't mean I condone what's said.
Like I said in the only post I've made about the subject, I totally agree with you there.
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I clarified my comment quite well and followed it up with what you stated above that you agree with. I don't see how it is unfair or hurtful, it is my experience, which I further clarified to state that it does not matter if someone has a degree or not, it is their work that matters... so not sure what else you are looking for? I can't change my experience and you agree with my last-stated viewpoint in that regardless of degree it is work ethic and attitude that counts.
I don't go around and balk at licensed techs. I'm not rude or hateful to them. I simply flipped the scenario in reverse so that people can see how stupid it is to state things in either direction, but apparently more so in the direction towards licensed techs.
My view is balanced, as stated above, that it is how well the tech works that counts and not their licensing status. I can't be anymore balanced than that.
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One of my friends, who is a CVT, currently works for said corporate. She wants me to sign on with them when I graduate so she can get a bonus and I can work with her. I refuse to work with her because she is one of the said techs who has made numerous repeat errors and well, corporate vet clinic.
Great person and great friend. Just not so great at the tech thing.
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Well I mean... Like I said, I respect that is your experience/opinion.
But I think if anyone with any sort of clout says, "I've been in the field for a long time and every _____ I've met has been horrible and inferior to ______, so if I have the chance to hire, I would go with ___"
(Fill that in with CVT/assistant, island students/state side students, internship trained/straight into practice, what have you)
... I personally think it's unfair and kinda hurtful... but YMMV and we may just have to agree to disagree on that one.
But I think if anyone with any sort of clout says, "I've been in the field for a long time and every _____ I've met has been horrible and inferior to ______, so if I have the chance to hire, I would go with ___"
(Fill that in with CVT/assistant, island students/state side students, internship trained/straight into practice, what have you)
... I personally think it's unfair and kinda hurtful... but YMMV and we may just have to agree to disagree on that one.
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I further clarified my statement on that to this:
"is how well the tech works that counts and not their licensing status"
What else do you want? An official redaction? I can't make it anymore clear.
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I'm not really asking anything of you. I was just clarifying my pov because I wasn't sure it got across. My intention was to make you feel less attacked, but clearly that did not work. Sorry.
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The issue I have is that the opposite viewpoint is stated repeatedly on here. And not just by pre-vets, vet students have stated it as well, so have some of the vets on here that don't post as frequently. No one really says much of anything and if something is said, some people agree with the opposite viewpoint. So that viewpoint that on the job trained aren't as good gets perpetuated. So clearly stating what I did touches more of a nerve than those that state the same about on the job trained techs. And it shouldn't. People should be equally upset about both statements. Which was really the point I was trying to make, although probably poorly. If someone can state that bad experience with an on the job trained tech has made them decide they will never hire another again, why is the opposite so bad? That is what I was trying to get at. I wouldn't actually ever look at a licensed tech's resume and pitch it solely based on them being licensed. I am not like that. Nor would I do the reverse.
I agree with you completely that it is about how the person works and not about if they are licensed or not. Which I should have probably made more clear in my initial post.
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I guess it's just not a topic that I'm personally all that invested in, so I can't tell you how many times it's been said by who. Usually it's brought up in some pissing contest that starts off with some ignorant douche, and I'm like whatever, I really don't care. I usually just eye roll and move along and don't really read the long debacle that follows. Unless I see some really provocative statement, I usually just skim through and go yada yada yada.
Like I said, the only thing that prompted me to respond this time was because of WHO was making the statement and how one sided it seemed. I honestly don't ever recall anyone whose opinions I really respect saying the opposite with the same intensity. If you had made the opposite statement in the same manner, I probably would have said the same exact thing.
