Vet vs Med

[kittyterran]

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Hello friends! Before I start off, its not my intention to offend anyone and I realize there are alot of threads like this. I just finished sophomore in undergrad with ~1000 hours working in a vet clinic, plus I'm involved in pre-vet club, volunteering at animal shelters and I guess I always thought I wanted to be a veterinarian since I was a child. Now that I've gotten experience in the field I'm having second thoughts about being a veterinarian. I know as an MD I will definitely achieve the lifestyle I want (if I go into specialties that I'm interested in). This is a lifestyle that I haven't seen any of the vet I've worked with have. Also, I know I should not be concerned by this but I see a lot of vets dissatisfied with the lack of respect that their clients give them and I want to be respected.

Otherwise, I really love medicine and I think this is the most important factor in the profession I want to pursue. My grades are solid (they definitely could be better) but they are on par for both in state/ mid-tier vet/med school.

This summer, I'm going to be sending out some emails to MDs for shadowing and I will be trying to decide by the end of the summer whether to break off vet medicine and go for human medicine. I know that there is no toggling between these two professions...they are both extremely hard, and I'll need to expend all of my energy into one if I'm to achieve either one. The way I see it, either shadowing human medicine will scare me off and make me appreciate vet med more or I will love it and decide to throw away the hard work I did for vet school and do a 180 for human med. I'm just feeling some extreme guilt for being indecisive, so I would like some advice/insight. Also, I'm sending out my resume and I'm sort of scared of how my vet experience will be perceived by the MDs I'm asking to shadow...should I explain my situation in the cover letter or would my indecisiveness deter the MDs? All honest feedback/ anecdotal life experiences from MD/DVM/pre-med/pre-vet would be appreciated.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Like you said, try out human medicine. If you like it, great! You don't have to be born wanting to go into human medicine. You have time to dabble in different things right now, so go for it.

 

[Lya]

It's completely natural and normal to be indecisive in career choices. Even when students get into medical school, they change their minds all the time as they try to choose a specialty.

With that said, just be genuine and sincere. Talk about how you want to shadow to see how MDs serve others, so that you can figure out whether you can see yourself in their shoes or not. If you don't mind, a cover letter or brief paragraphs in e-mail should suffice. I have never been a pre-vet before, but it's just my opinion.

 

[LiveLoveLearn]

I think that it is really good that you are questioning your goals, and trying out other things to see if they suit you - especially since you are thinking about being a vet. I think that you really need to have passion for it and love the work for that field, as you will be taking out a ridiculous amount in loans, spending a large amount of time in school, and will make maybe 60,000/yr. People that are happy in that situation really love the work that they are doing.

 

[tatum30]

I appreciate this thread because I'm in a similar situation. I enjoy working at the clinic, but also love working in the lab on campus. I'm thinking I love the science and medicine of it all too. Please let us know how your ideas and decisions progress. Also, I'm curious how the shadowing goes. Thanks!

 

[ar2388]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

 

[Planes2Doc]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

Same. I can't stand seeing sick animals. 🙁 It's fascinating how our emotions are wired this way.

 

[Loveless]

Also, I know I should not be concerned by this but I see a lot of vets dissatisfied with the lack of respect that their clients give them and I want to be respected.

You're there to treat the animal, not your own ego. Plenty of human patients don't respect their doctors at all, so you're in for a rude awakening if you end up choosing human medicine for the respect factor.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Vet school has the same debt as med school but 1/3rd to 1/5 the salary.

Also, I believe vet school is significantly harder to get into than med school because there are only a few vet schools in the nation.

 

[ToldYouSo]

Same. I can't stand seeing sick animals. 🙁 It's fascinating how our emotions are wired this way.

Fortunately, not everyone is 'wired' this way

 

[Dingo Mango]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

Abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

+1

 

[Omppu27]

You're there to treat the animal, not your own ego. Plenty of human patients don't respect their doctors at all, so you're in for a rude awakening if you end up choosing human medicine for the respect factor.

This is exactly what I thought too.

Also, I don't think you even need to send your CV to docs when you ask to shadow. Just say you're a student at X university studying bio/zoology/whatever your major is and that you're interested in pursuing a career in medicine.

 

[cs5910]

Never realized I was "wired" differently!

 

[Bacchus]

Vet school has the same debt as med school but 1/3rd to 1/5 the salary.

Also, I believe vet school is significantly harder to get into than med school because there are only a few vet schools in the nation.

It might sound bad, but this should be a definite consideration. At least in medicine you have a salary that will be able to pay everything back without too much hardship.

 

[chillaxbro]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

Same. I can't stand seeing sick animals. 🙁 It's fascinating how our emotions are wired this way.

Be sure to mention this during your interview

 

[Omppu27]

never realized i was "wired" differently!

o-h...

 

[Fenouil]

I was in the same position as you as a sophomore, trying to decide between vet and human medicine. Then I started working as a vet assistant in a small animal clinic and volunteering in the ER at the same time. Don't worry about being indecisive; I felt like it was the crisis of my life, trying to decide between the two.

I don't want to try to sway you one way or another, but I wish I had been able to see someone's reasoning for choosing MD over DVM (or vice versa) laid out clearly when I was a sophomore. I chose MD (starting med school this fall), and here is why:

1. The grossness/poor medicine of the vet clinic where I worked. As a vet, you are SO limited by what clients are willing to pay. To whittle our prices down, we would we would reuse urinary catheters (not my choice, boss's orders). We would sometimes board so many animals at once that we kept dogs overnight in the bathroom. No monitoring during or after surgery, and no post-op pain control. Blood splatters on the wall of the surgery room, where the vet would try to lob animal parts (usually testicles and tubes from spays and neuters) into the trash can. I know not all vet clinics are like this, but this was a small animal clinic in an upscale area of town. And despite all the corners we cut, we still had clients bitching about our pricing. There are lots of vet clinics that practice great medicine, but the fact that I happened to land a job in this one just turned me off from vet med.

2. I cannot handle animals in pain. With humans I can keep my cool, because usually you can at least explain to the human what is wrong and what you are going to do about it. Not all the time, but usually. As a vet, it's like, "Ok tiny puppy, your owner decided not to vaccinate you, so now you have parvo and you are going to die a slow, horrible death." The puppy never has any idea what's going on, it just knows it's in pain and you're making it worse by restraining it and sticking it with needles. Weird as it seems, being an animal lover can often be a disadvantage in vet med.

3. In vet med it is always the case that you rely on someone other than your patient to obtain the history and carry out care/administer meds after they leave your clinic. I understand that this is also usually the case in some areas of human med (like peds). But it really sucks sometimes to have to rely so heavily on the client, especially the less... responsible ones ("Your dog has had a broken pelvis for a week, I know you can't tell he's in pain but he is. Please give him this Tramadol per the instructions on the bottle. Please. PLEASE").

4. Vet school costs about the same as med school, but vets don't make nearly as much money. The idea of having to continue paying off vet school loans into my forties terrified me. Plenty of people are willing to make this financial sacrifice, and that is awesome and they're brave as hell, but I just couldn't do it.

Those are just my experiences, though. It might be totally different for you, depending on where you've worked and what you get to see when you shadow MDs. Also keep in mind that the majority of my vet experience was in small animal. There are lots of other areas to explore (large animal, wildlife, zoo, lab animal, food animal). I don't think your indecisiveness will put anyone off; I was open about my indecisiveness throughout my shadowing and volunteering and it was never a problem. That's what shadowing is for! My choice was also a major talking point at most of my interviews.

Just get lots of experience and you'll come to a decision. Best of luck!

 

[SmallBlock]

Animal versus Human medicine was a struggle for me as well. Salary was certainly a significant factor, but I also have a few other problems:

Lack of curative treatment: In my experience, most vets only treat symptoms. If teeth are bad, they do dental work. If allergies are bad, they give antihistamines, steroids, immunosuppressants, or allergy shots. They don't really address the root causes of these problems. Animals that have chronic conditions tend to have them until they die, and the best most vets can do is provide palliative care. This is not to say that human doctors don't do the same thing, but at least in human medicine there is a greater range of diagnostics and treatments available, as well as the added bonus of being able to effectively communicate with patients to help with a definitive diagnosis. These offer a greater chance of curative treatment.

Nutritional closed-mindedness: This is a biggie for me. As someone who has studied ecology and evolution as well as taxonomy and systematics extensively, I cannot fathom how conventional vets could, in good conscience, continue to recommend that owners feed their pets dry, processed kibble. I figure the answer must lie in their education. I don't know for sure having not been to vet school myself, but I have read that most vets receive all nutritional training from dog food companies, and many of these companies fund up to 40% of all vet education period. Add to this the fact that vets make so little money that they are essentially forced to supplement their clinic proceeds with the sale of prescription diets. If this is all true, you can't blame the vet for being essentially brainwashed, but that isn't the kind of medicine I would want to practice.

 

[cs5910]

I was in the same position as you as a sophomore, trying to decide between vet and human medicine. Then I started working as a vet assistant in a small animal clinic and volunteering in the ER at the same time. Don't worry about being indecisive; I felt like it was the crisis of my life, trying to decide between the two.

I don't want to try to sway you one way or another, but I wish I had been able to see someone's reasoning for choosing MD over DVM (or vice versa) laid out clearly when I was a sophomore. I chose MD (starting med school this fall), and here is why:

1. The grossness/poor medicine of the vet clinic where I worked. As a vet, you are SO limited by what clients are willing to pay. To whittle our prices down, we would we would reuse urinary catheters (not my choice, boss's orders). We would sometimes board so many animals at once that we kept dogs overnight in the bathroom. No monitoring during or after surgery, and no post-op pain control. Blood splatters on the wall of the surgery room, where the vet would try to lob animal parts (usually testicles and tubes from spays and neuters) into the trash can. I know not all vet clinics are like this, but this was a small animal clinic in an upscale area of town. And despite all the corners we cut, we still had clients bitching about our pricing. There are lots of vet clinics that practice great medicine, but the fact that I happened to land a job in this one just turned me off from vet med.

2. I cannot handle animals in pain. With humans I can keep my cool, because usually you can at least explain to the human what is wrong and what you are going to do about it. Not all the time, but usually. As a vet, it's like, "Ok tiny puppy, your owner decided not to vaccinate you, so now you have parvo and you are going to die a slow, horrible death." The puppy never has any idea what's going on, it just knows it's in pain and you're making it worse by restraining it and sticking it with needles. Weird as it seems, being an animal lover can often be a disadvantage in vet med.

3. In vet med it is always the case that you rely on someone other than your patient to obtain the history and carry out care/administer meds after they leave your clinic. I understand that this is also usually the case in some areas of human med (like peds). But it really sucks sometimes to have to rely so heavily on the client, especially the less... responsible ones ("Your dog has had a broken pelvis for a week, I know you can't tell he's in pain but he is. Please give him this Tramadol per the instructions on the bottle. Please. PLEASE").

4. Vet school costs about the same as med school, but vets don't make nearly as much money. The idea of having to continue paying off vet school loans into my forties terrified me. Plenty of people are willing to make this financial sacrifice, and that is awesome and they're brave as hell, but I just couldn't do it.

Those are just my experiences, though. It might be totally different for you, depending on where you've worked and what you get to see when you shadow MDs. Also keep in mind that the majority of my vet experience was in small animal. There are lots of other areas to explore (large animal, wildlife, zoo, lab animal, food animal). I don't think your indecisiveness will put anyone off; I was open about my indecisiveness throughout my shadowing and volunteering and it was never a problem. That's what shadowing is for! My choice was also a major talking point at most of my interviews.

Just get lots of experience and you'll come to a decision. Best of luck!

I think you need to be careful with your "poor medicine" description of this field. It's a pretty ridiculous accusation considering we go through the same amount of schooling as you do. It sounds like you have worked in a hospital that needs to be reported. Not just for the lack of sterility in the operating room (blood on the walls?) incorrect disposal of surgery waste, or the fact that they had dogs boarding in the bathroom (wth?). That place sounds like it has a whole slew of problems, starting with the ethics of the vet who owns it. It is VERY wrong for you to place the entire field and all its Doctors into the category of poor medicine because you worked at one unethical place. Jeez, if that was the case we could call out thousands of human doctors for poor medicine (Dr. Gosnell anyone?).

 

[BillrothI]

Nutritional closed-mindedness: This is a biggie for me. As someone who has studied ecology and evolution as well as taxonomy and systematics extensively, I cannot fathom how conventional vets could, in good conscience, continue to recommend that owners feed their pets dry, processed kibble. I figure the answer must lie in their education. I don't know for sure having not been to vet school myself, but I have read that most vets receive all nutritional training from dog food companies, and many of these companies fund up to 40% of all vet education period. Add to this the fact that vets make so little money that they are essentially forced to supplement their clinic proceeds with the sale of prescription diets. If this is all true, you can't blame the vet for being essentially brainwashed, but that isn't the kind of medicine I would want to practice.

What's the problem with dry, processed kibble? What is the alternative? Just curious.

Thanks,
Bill R.

 

[notbobtrustme]

What's the problem with dry, processed kibble?

When's the last time you saw a pack of wild dogs eat some kibble?

 

[cs5910]

When's the last time you saw a pack of wild dogs eat some kibble?

When was the last time you saw people owning a pack of wild dogs in their home?

 

[Xenops]

To my understanding, dried food has a lot of unnecessary carbohydrates, pigments and processed animal parts (think chicken beaks).

 

[Ost3oclast]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

Ugh, this is me...

 

[Dingo Mango]

To my understanding, dried food has a lot of unnecessary carbohydrates, pigments and processed animal parts (think chicken beaks).

There is dry food with really poor ingredients but there are many brands of high quality dry food that you can mix with other tasty things to give your pup a better diet. and yes a LOT of food uses chicken meal for instance instead of or in addition to actual chicken meat and it can include stuff such as diseased meat and bones and other crap that has been heavily processed. 🙁

 

[NontradCA]

Ugh, this is me...

It's weird, I obtained a new respect for animals while using them for trauma teaching purposes.

 

[r0703]

What's the problem with dry, processed kibble? What is the alternative? Just curious.

Thanks,
Bill R.

Wet food! Apparently dry food is terrible for animals

 

[SmallBlock]

There is dry food with really poor ingredients but there are many brands of high quality dry food that you can mix with other tasty things to give your pup a better diet. and yes a LOT of food uses chicken meal for instance instead of or in addition to actual chicken meat and it can include stuff such as diseased meat and bones and other crap that has been heavily processed. 🙁

No matter the quality of the ingredients in dry OR wet food, it is still cooked and processed, and the vast majority of the nutritional value is lost. Many dogs that have "allergies" to proteins like chicken and beef in their dry diet can eat the raw protein with no problem whatsover. Cooking the meat changes the protein, the body recognizes it as a foreign substance and - voila - immune response and allergies. Then of course there are many ingredients that dogs never evolved to digest and are basically wasted. Most dogs have big, smelly feces. That's all that vegetable matter that essentially passes straight through their short gut. Dogs that eat meat only have barely any feces because practically everything is absorted. What does come out is almost odorless.

Bones are actually an excellent source of nutrition - uncooked bone of the proper size is soft and highly digestible. It also cleans teeth naturally - just google some pictures of dogs teeth who are fed raw meaty bones. Dogs aren't supposed to have bad breath and tooth decay - you would have these too if you ate sugary breakfast cereals every day of your life.

cs5910 - True, dogs have been domesticated for a long time, and we've bred them to look different. But physiologically they are, for all intents and purposes, identical to their wolf ancestors that have evolved over a far longer period to eat a raw diet. And on top of that, commercial kibbles have only been around for the last hundred years or so. The best way to think of kibble is like a meal replacement bar - yes it has the nutrition to sustain you, but can you really thrive on them?

 

[dyachei]

Hello friends! Before I start off, its not my intention to offend anyone and I realize there are alot of threads like this. I just finished sophomore in undergrad with ~1000 hours working in a vet clinic, plus I'm involved in pre-vet club, volunteering at animal shelters and I guess I always thought I wanted to be a veterinarian since I was a child. Now that I've gotten experience in the field I'm having second thoughts about being a veterinarian. I know as an MD I will definitely achieve the lifestyle I want (if I go into specialties that I'm interested in). This is a lifestyle that I haven't seen any of the vet I've worked with have. Also, I know I should not be concerned by this but I see a lot of vets dissatisfied with the lack of respect that their clients give them and I want to be respected.

Otherwise, I really love medicine and I think this is the most important factor in the profession I want to pursue. My grades are solid (they definitely could be better) but they are on par for both in state/ mid-tier vet/med school.

This summer, I'm going to be sending out some emails to MDs for shadowing and I will be trying to decide by the end of the summer whether to break off vet medicine and go for human medicine. I know that there is no toggling between these two professions...they are both extremely hard, and I'll need to expend all of my energy into one if I'm to achieve either one. The way I see it, either shadowing human medicine will scare me off and make me appreciate vet med more or I will love it and decide to throw away the hard work I did for vet school and do a 180 for human med. I'm just feeling some extreme guilt for being indecisive, so I would like some advice/insight. Also, I'm sending out my resume and I'm sort of scared of how my vet experience will be perceived by the MDs I'm asking to shadow...should I explain my situation in the cover letter or would my indecisiveness deter the MDs? All honest feedback/ anecdotal life experiences from MD/DVM/pre-med/pre-vet would be appreciated.

If you are trying to decide between both, shadow both positions. Just remember debt to income ratio will be low as a veterinarian. Every hospital is different, so if you're working at a clinic and don't like the situation, make sure it's actually about the vet med and not about THAT practice. It's not about a lack of respect for me, its about being very cognizant of the owner's finances. Any specific questions, feel free to PM.

 

[SmallBlock]

When was the last time you saw people owning a pack of wild dogs in their home?

I just noticed your pre-vet status. I do hope that you try to remain open-minded in vet school. This statement falls in line with just the kind of dogma that most conventional vets today preach.

 

[NontradCA]

I just noticed your pre-vet status. I do hope that you try to remain open-minded in vet school. This statement falls in line with just the kind of dogma that most conventional vets today preach.

lolwut?😕

 

[felinelvr44]

I just noticed your pre-vet status. I do hope that you try to remain open-minded in vet school. This statement falls in line with just the kind of dogma that most conventional vets today preach.

If you guys want to come over the pre-vet forum I'm sure we'd love to have an in-depth chat about dog food with some of the current veterinary students and veterinarians that post there. Instead of you know, just talking out of your butts.

 

[SmallBlock]

lolwut?😕

Reasoning that dogs are domesticated as an argument that they should not eat raw meat is common practice among the vets I've worked with. It's a biased and uninformed opinion.

 

[cs5910]

I just noticed your pre-vet status. I do hope that you try to remain open-minded in vet school. This statement falls in line with just the kind of dogma that most conventional vets today preach.

I didn't give an opinion on any type of diet, as I am not a Doctor...I am actually very open to both sides of the spectrum. No need to be rude.

 

[felinelvr44]

Reasoning that dogs are domesticated as an argument that they should not eat raw meat is common practice among the vets I've worked with. It's a biased and uninformed opinion.

It's almost like... they went to school for that or something.

But you're right, whatever you read on the internet is probably way more accurate.

 

[BillrothI]

No matter the quality of the ingredients in dry OR wet food, it is still cooked and processed, and the vast majority of the nutritional value is lost. Many dogs that have "allergies" to proteins like chicken and beef in their dry diet can eat the raw protein with no problem whatsover. Cooking the meat changes the protein, the body recognizes it as a foreign substance and - voila - immune response and allergies.

Are you certain about that? Most food that humans consumed is cooked and processed. Is there a difference in the way in which animal food is processed?

FWIW - our vet recommended just feeding our dog human food. He gave us a 'recipe' for something consisting of cheap ground meat, carrots, and eggs. Didn't really question it at the time, but our dog seems to like it better than the kibble.

-Bill R.

 

[Fenouil]

I think you need to be careful with your "poor medicine" description of this field. It's a pretty ridiculous accusation considering we go through the same amount of schooling as you do. It sounds like you have worked in a hospital that needs to be reported. Not just for the lack of sterility in the operating room (blood on the walls?) incorrect disposal of surgery waste, or the fact that they had dogs boarding in the bathroom (wtf?). That place sounds like it has a whole slew of problems, starting with the ethics of the vet who owns it. It is VERY wrong for you to place the entire field and all its Doctors into the category of poor medicine because you worked at one unethical place. Jeez, if that was the case we could call out thousands of human doctors for poor medicine (Dr. Gosnell anyone?).

That's why I specified it was just the clinic where I worked. I worked for a really old school vet, and while I know that tons of small animal clinics practice great medicine, my experiences there just left a really bad taste in my mouth. It was enough to sway me the other way.

I shadowed a different vet once and her lab/surgery suite blew my mind. If I'd worked there I might have chosen a different path.

Edit: Also wanted to add that I don't go around bad-mouthing vet med in real life--just the clinic where I worked. Now I annoy all my friends by lecturing them about not choosing a vet based on price/ watching out for red flags (bloodstains on the wall of the surgery room/suite is a pretty good one).

 

[SmallBlock]

I didn't give an opinion on any type of diet, as I am not a Doctor...I am actually very open to both sides of the spectrum. No need to be rude.

I apologize if I came off rude. Your comment sounded to me like someone who was sold on convention for the sake of tradition. I'm glad that you're open.

It's almost like... they went to school for that or something.

But you're right, whatever you read on the internet is probably way more accurate.

My opinion is based on my own study of animal physiology and evolution, and observation of my own pets and the vets I've worked with, not the internet. If you'd like to have an intelligent discussion, please, let's hear your side.

 

[SmallBlock]

Are you certain about that? Most food that humans consumed is cooked and processed. Is there a difference in the way in which animal food is processed?

FWIW - our vet recommended just feeding our dog human food. He gave us a 'recipe' for something consisting of cheap ground meat, carrots, and eggs. Didn't really question it at the time, but our dog seems to like it better than the kibble.

-Bill R.

First, there are a number of people who believe humans should be eating raw too. I'm not one of them, but there you go. Still, even if you don't eat raw, many subscribe to unprocessed, natural foods.

Second, humans and dogs are pretty different. Evidence suggests humans and their ancestors have been using fire to cook food for as much as 400,000 years. That's plenty of time for us to develop the proper digestive enzymes to handle cooked meat. Dogs have been domesticated for a fraction of that time and have likely eaten cooked foods for only a portion of that. Simply, there dogs have not yet evolved to eat the foods we want them to.

Giving your dog human food, even if cooked, is still miles ahead of any processed kibble in terms of nutritional value. And of course your dog likes it better - wouldn't you rather have grilled chicken than a brown, artificial pellet?

 

[JaynaAli]

Reasoning that dogs are domesticated as an argument that they should not eat raw meat is common practice among the vets I've worked with. It's a biased and uninformed opinion.

Here is a journal article about a raw-fed puppy that developed hypovitaminosis D rickets and secondary hyperparathyroidism because it wasn't getting the correct nutrients in its (raw) diet.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.234.8.1041

Dogs need more nutrients than raw meat provides. If you do feed raw, there is a lot more that needs to go into the diet. It is hard for the lay person to properly balance a diet. If they can do it properly, then I see where raw feeding can have its place. But most people cannot do it well, and they are much better off feeding a commercial kibble diet that has been balanced to a dog's nutritional requirements.

 

[Medstart108]

i realized that while i love animals, something i could never ever do - and therefore could never go to vet school because of this - is put an animal down..

abortions and patients dying affects me a whole lot less than animals suffering and dying.

Ok people who say this, I've always wondered. Does this mean you care more about animals than people?

For example if you were forced to press one of two buttons:

One would kill a random person in the world (you don't know who)

The other would kill a random animal in the world (you don't know which)

Which would you choose?

 

[DVMDream]

Nutritional closed-mindedness: This is a biggie for me. As someone who has studied ecology and evolution as well as taxonomy and systematics extensively, I cannot fathom how conventional vets could, in good conscience, continue to recommend that owners feed their pets dry, processed kibble. I figure the answer must lie in their education. I don't know for sure having not been to vet school myself, but I have read that most vets receive all nutritional training from dog food companies, and many of these companies fund up to 40% of all vet education period. Add to this the fact that vets make so little money that they are essentially forced to supplement their clinic proceeds with the sale of prescription diets. If this is all true, you can't blame the vet for being essentially brainwashed, but that isn't the kind of medicine I would want to practice.

Interesting....

I am in vet school. I have never seen a single pet food representative since I started vet school. Not one. I received an entire course on nutrition from a nutritionist who specializes in animal nutrition (mainly horses) but she has done research with the nutrition requirements of other species as well.

The key to any diet is a balanced diet based on the INDIVIDUAL's needs (we too often group species together but that is not the way to feed anyone)... a racehorse needs a much different diet than that of a retired pony. A nursing bitch (female dog) had different nutritional demands than that of a young pup. A human kid has different demands than that of an 80 year old man.

You can obtain a balanced diet from a dry kibble, however, just like any other food there are differences in quality amongst the brands. Raw diets for dogs are not ideal because it is rarely a balanced diet... yes it will give the dog protein but meat by itself (which is what wolves eat) is not a balanced diet. Therefore, you must add in some type of carbohydrate and even then you will be missing out on some of the essential minerals and vitamins. It is hard to obtain a truly balanced home-cooked meal for a dog (though not impossible, but most people do not have the time nor money to do so). Dry dog kibble is considered balanced diet (depending on the brand/ingredients/nutritional needs of the dog) and as far as the lots of carbs in dog kibble... look at the ingredients... the first ingredient has the highest concentration in the food and there are brands in which this is chicken or beef.

Also, raw diets are not ideal for household, domesticated dogs because of the diseases that can be obtained from feeding these diets. The argument I hear over and over is that, "well wolves eat it". Yes, wolves also die at younger ages than domesticated pets, wolves also do not live in your house and the vast majority of wolves also probably have a friendly tapeworm or two hanging around in their gut. Not exactly what you want your household pet to have, now is it? Especially, if you have young kids around... they will put anything in their mouths... including dog poop. Do you really want to feed your dog a diet that increases the likelihood of them getting intestinal parasites?

 

[Orion12]

First, there are a number of people who believe humans should be eating raw too. I'm not one of them, but there you go. Still, even if you don't eat raw, many subscribe to unprocessed, natural foods.

Second, humans and dogs are pretty different. Evidence suggests humans and their ancestors have been using fire to cook food for as much as 400,000 years. That's plenty of time for us to develop the proper digestive enzymes to handle cooked meat. Dogs have been domesticated for a fraction of that time and have likely eaten cooked foods for only a portion of that. Simply, there dogs have not yet evolved to eat the foods we want them to.

Giving your dog human food, even if cooked, is still miles ahead of any processed kibble in terms of nutritional value. And of course your dog likes it better - wouldn't you rather have grilled chicken than a brown, artificial pellet?

I think there are pros and cons to both diets plus many other diets that are out there. Most vets treat companion animals upon an individual basis. Some dogs do wonderful with a high quality kibble while others do better with an alternative diet. It sounds like your dog is one of those that does better on a alternative diet which is great and I am glad you care enough to look into it. My dog on the other hand has awful diarrhea if I feed him ANYTHING besides his high quality dog food. Not all dogs are the same just like not all people are the same. I do great with eating meat but I have a friend that gets ill when eating meat as an example. I could give you a list of all the negative reasons for each diet as well. You just have to find the best thing for each dog.

More factors on the diets is price of the diet, time spent cooking, and owners preferences. Just like humans... some people can't afford the best food for themselves and some just don't have time to cook. The veterinarian can advise you further on what to feed your animal and how to do it safely so the pet has the right amount of nutrients. If your vet doesn't know a lot about nutrition go to a different one. Just like I would go to a doctor who didn't know enough about a certain medical point I was interested in.

 

[SmallBlock]

Here is a journal article about a raw-fed puppy that developed hypovitaminosis D rickets and secondary hyperparathyroidism because it wasn't getting the correct nutrients in its (raw) diet.

http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/full/10.2460/javma.234.8.1041

Dogs need more nutrients than raw meat provides. If you do feed raw, there is a lot more that needs to go into the diet. It is hard for the lay person to properly balance a diet. If they can do it properly, then I see where raw feeding can have its place. But most people cannot do it well, and they are much better off feeding a commercial kibble diet that has been balanced to a dog's nutritional requirements.

First, I apologize to the OP for hijacking this thread!

Thanks for your citation, I think I've seen this article before. I'd be curious to know who funded it though. I wouldn't be surprised to see a company like Purina contributing significantly. I think it is also worth considering that this is essentially a case study of n=1. I'm certain other dogs on raw diets have nutrition deficiencies, just as many dogs on processed diets have nutrition deficiencies. And you're correct, raw diets aren't for every owner. It takes a lot of planning, research, and fine-tuning. But just because it isn't right for the owner doesn't mean it's wrong for the dog.

I'm also curious why you think dogs need more nutrients than raw meat provides - is that taught in a class? What do they teach in vet school about nutrition? Canines aren't obligate carnivores like felines, but they still retain a primarily carnassial dentition and consume almost entirely raw meat in the wild, given optimum circumstances.

 

[BlackDog17]

Reasoning that dogs are domesticated as an argument that they should not eat raw meat is common practice among the vets I've worked with. It's a biased and uninformed opinion.

I'm sorry, what vet school did you graduate from?

 

[SmallBlock]

Interesting....

The key to any diet is a balanced diet based on the INDIVIDUAL's needs (we too often group species together but that is not the way to feed anyone)... a racehorse needs a much different diet than that of a retired pony. A nursing bitch (female dog) had different nutritional demands than that of a young pup. A human kid has different demands than that of an 80 year old man.

You can obtain a balanced diet from a dry kibble, however, just like any other food there are differences in quality amongst the brands. Raw diets for dogs are not ideal because it is rarely a balanced diet... yes it will give the dog protein but meat by itself (which is what wolves eat) is not a balanced diet. Therefore, you must add in some type of carbohydrate and even then you will be missing out on some of the essential minerals and vitamins. It is hard to obtain a truly balanced home-cooked meal for a dog (though not impossible, but most people do not have the time nor money to do so). Dry dog kibble is considered balanced diet (depending on the brand/ingredients/nutritional needs of the dog) and as far as the lots of carbs in dog kibble... look at the ingredients... the first ingredient has the highest concentration in the food and there are brands in which this is chicken or beef.

Also, raw diets are not ideal for household, domesticated dogs because of the diseases that can be obtained from feeding these diets. The argument I hear over and over is that, "well wolves eat it". Yes, wolves also die at younger ages than domesticated pets, wolves also do not live in your house and the vast majority of wolves also probably have a friendly tapeworm or two hanging around in their gut. Not exactly what you want your household pet to have, now is it? Especially, if you have young kids around... they will put anything in their mouths... including dog poop. Do you really want to feed your dog a diet that increases the likelihood of them getting intestinal parasites?

I agree, the key is to address an indivuals needs.

But consider this - why do you think dogs need carbohydrates? Or those essential minerals and vitamins? Are they actually biologically appropriate, and how do you know? A species that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to persist on a diet of mostly protein should not need many, if any, carbohydrates.

I've also heard the argument about wild counterparts living shorter lives. Remember also that wild dogs and wolves are subject to many environmental stressors that will quickly shorten a life that a domestic dog is not. Scarcity of prey, other predators, social hierarchy all play into the lifespan of a wild animal, and our pets don't have to contend with it.

Parasites are basically a non-issue for raw fed domestic pets. Human-grade meat is rarely contaminated, and if it is, parasites are typically found in the intestines, which aren't fed to pets. 24-48 hours in a sub-zero freezer kills the vast majority of parasites that might cause a problem. There are a host of other bacteria in dog poop that you don't want your child touching, raw fed or not.

 

[Orion12]

Parasites are basically a non-issue for raw fed domestic pets. Human-grade meat is rarely contaminated, and if it is, parasites are typically found in the intestines, which aren't fed to pets. 24-48 hours in a sub-zero freezer kills the vast majority of parasites that might cause a problem. There are a host of other bacteria in dog poop that you don't want your child touching, raw fed or not.

Yes parasites are not a huge issue, but still an issue. Pathogenic bacteria are a bigger issue and there are reports of humans getting sick from pets fed raw diets. See below for a few studies. This is one of the biggest cons in raw diets.


Raw animal products are well documented to be common sources of such pathogens (Doyle and Schoeni 1987, Samadpour et al. 1994, Mead et al. 1999, White et al. 2001, Zhao et al. 2001). In addition, Consumer Reports recently found that a very high percentage of chicken (over 80%) intended for human consumption, (some of it labeled organic) was contaminated with Campylobacter, while approximately 15% of the samples were contaminated with Salmonella (Consumer Reports, Jan 2007). Commercially available pet diets are not exempt from these issues; studies have demonstrated the presence of pathogenic bacteria in samples of several commercially available raw food diets (Freeman and Michel 2001, Strohmeyer et al. 2006, Weese et al. 2005). Further, pets eating contaminated raw food diets can shed pathogenic microorganisms and can become ill (Busch et al. 2007, Finley et al. 2007, Morley et al. 2006, Stiver et al. 2003). One study reported that 14% of fecal samples of dogs fed raw diets were contaminated with Salmonella, compared to no positive samples for dogs not fed raw foods (Lenz et al 09). The passage of pathogens from animals to humans has also been documented (Sato et al. 2000, Tauni and Osterlund 2000). Another study documented shedding of salmonella in "therapy" dogs (i.e., dogs that visit or work with sick, old or debilitated people) fed raw diets (Lefebvre et al 2008).

 

[SmallBlock]

I'm sorry, what vet school did you graduate from?

I don't have a veterinary degree. I have a degree in ecology and evolution, with a strong preference for animal physiology. I am happy to admit that I don't know everything and all that I've written is my opinion. My whole point in mentioning any of this is that I would hate to pay for four years of vet school and lose my ability to think critically.

Like I wrote before, if you'd like to engage in intelligent discussion, feel free to voice your opinion. Sarcastic jabs don't mean much.

 

[DVMDream]

I agree, the key is to address an indivuals needs.

But consider this - why do you think dogs need carbohydrates? Or those essential minerals and vitamins? Are they actually biologically appropriate, and how do you know? A species that has evolved over hundreds of thousands of years to persist on a diet of mostly protein should not need many, if any, carbohydrates.

This:

ring any bells???? Why do you think carbohydrates would be important in the diet of any animal??? I don't know... maybe cause they need it to LIVE...

You really think that raw meat (the meat you would feed your house pet) has all the essential vitamins and minerals that a dog needs... calcium, vitamin D, vitamin B, zinc, iodine, etc, etc

Also, ever see wolves do things like this:

[YOUTUBE]EpJXGzZD-1g[/YOUTUBE]


Yeah, they eat grass, just like dogs do.

Also, have you ever watched a wolf eat a meal... they leave nothing but the bones behind and very few bones at that. They eat intestines, stomach, heart, lungs, etc, etc.... do you plan on feeding those to your house dog? No, you feed the muscles, just like what we eat. All of those other areas have different nutritional compositions and help to provide the wolf with what it needs. Contrary to popular belief, wolves do not only eat meat... they will graze on grass and other vegetation in addition to eating meat.

 

[SmallBlock]

Yes parasites are not a huge issue, but still an issue. Pathogenic bacteria are a bigger issue and there are reports of humans getting sick from pets fed raw diets. See below for a few studies. This is one of the biggest cons in raw diets.

Correct. But humans can just as easily get sick from mishandling raw meat for their own consumption. Proper sanitation is must in any environment, whether you have a dog or not. Dogs shed bacteria, including salmonella, in their feces regardless of whether or not they are raw fed. Might the bacteria load be higher in a raw-fed dog? I bet so. But again, humans getting sick from contamination is the human's fault, not the dogs. Another reason why raw feeding isn't for every owner.