Vet vs Med

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Offering a dissenting opinion and my background as justification doesn't make me arrogant. I'm only offering my knowledge and experience in the hopes of an intelligent, polite discussion. There is no reason to become unecessarily fired up in the face of a little healthy criticism.

Now, in fairness to you, I may have overstated the issue a little. But here's why I said what I said: In my personal experience from both working with vets and as a client, nutritional advice tends to be pretty standard - feed a high quality dry kibble. But everything I know of evolution and ecology indicates that this can't possibly be the best nutrition for an animal. Presumably, veterinary students at some point learned basic evolution and taxonomy, so there must be some disconnect somewhere; something I'm missing. This has nothing to do with the diagnostic skill of veterinarians.

I'm sure that there is dogma within human medicine and much of it archaic or inappropriate. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more in human medicine than in animal medicine, for that matter. But I think there is more of an opportunity to avoid these sorts of practices in human medicine.


And I can appreciate wanting to have a polite conversation. The "arrogant" comment was more referring to your "again if you would like to have an intelligent convo" remark and "I would hate to pay for 4 years of vet school and lose my ability to think critically" remark. You can say it as politely as you would like but it doesn't make what you are saying any less rude and condescending. And critical thinking (which was the point you mentioned whether you were talking about nutrition or otherwise) has everything to do with diagnostics in vet med so if you were referring to a skill specific to nutritional knowledge then I believe "critical thinking" is the wrong skill to criticize.
 
Then he didn't take the right lessons from biochemistry.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=gluconeogenesis


Let me give this to you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+pay+attention+to+a+conversation

Because clearly you did NOT see my comment below here (this was posted well before this comment of yours, by the way, I am a she):


Yes, proteins can be taken to pyruvate and then turned back into oxaloacetate and then taken through gluconeogenesis and turned into glucose, it is highly inefficient and costs loads of energy. There is also that greater risk of running into an issue where oxaloacetate runs out... therefore the process will not occur... you will need to top up oxaloacetate in order to keep the cycle going... so that mention of supplementation you had above... yeah, it is very possible that wolves start eating vegetation if something like this occurs... But wolves will graze on vegetation in periods where food is scarce as well, no it is not the main staple of their diet, but it is none the less important...

There's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.

You would know that if you actually took biochemistry.

You are correct, you do NOT have to eat something that is rich in carbohydrates to obtain the carbohydrates needed for living. Yes, you do need carbohydrates for living... or should I google what a carbohydrate is for you as well? (Hint: if you think you can live without glucose, then by all means keep saying that you don't need carbohydrates). You can build glucose from amino acids, as I stated above. However this pathway is highly inefficient and costs the animal (or person) a lot of energy... think of starvation and how much energy is used up to degrade muscle to replenish glucose.. or how about dairy cattle/ruminants that use volatile fatty acids as their main source of glucose... ever wonder why they are constantly eating???

I have taken both biochemistry in undergrad and metabolism in vet school. Metabolic pathways were pounded into our heads this past year, as there are differences amongst the species and many diseases occur due to the loss of something in one of these pathways or a change in the regulation of these pathways.
 
What harmful effects are you referring to, specifically? The danger of human infection from dogs fed raw meat? Here's a recent study describing how salmonella was transmitted to humans from dogs who ate dry kibble. http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103100631.html This doesn't mean raw meat is better, necessarily, but it offers evidence that proper sanitation is necessary, no matter what you feed your pet. I'd still like to know why you think feeding raw meat in a home is any different from cooking raw meat in a home for human consumption, given proper sanitation.

That study that you have a link to is about a dachshund that developed a food dermatosis to a dry dog food that was made at a pet shop... the dog improved when it was placed on a proper diet. The pet shop diet was found to be lacking in zinc and copper levels both of which were found to be under the minimum standard created by AAFCO for adult maintenance. There is nothing there about salmonella or its transmission to people.
 
this should probably be studied by vet science. It's the kind of cracker jack thing that they would be good at.

......wow really??
 
My opinion is based on evolutionary science, for which I have two degrees. It is not based off something I read on the internet. Dogs have evolved alongside humans for several thousands of years, true. But processed dried kibbles have been around for only one hundred years or so. No matter how much evolution occurred up to this point, 100 years is simply not enough time for significant adaptation to have occurred, even at the enhanced speed brought about by breeding selection on the part of humans. Another poster cited the new research that shows signs of a genetic shift toward an increased capacity to digest starches in dogs as compared to wolves. This is an excellent finding and it shows that indeed, dogs are resilient creatures and our selection is changing them. But again, its a long way from meaning that kibble is biologically appropriate diet.

And to call me closed-minded is simply name-calling. I've already conceded to you that raw feeding is not the best option for everyone and that vets need to consider the health of a whole family when considering care and diet. And I don't know why you mention breeders, I haven't.

Oh yes, your degrees in evolutionary science... you must have learned all about animal physiology and nutrition with those degrees... seriously. We have provided peer-reviewed articles for you and knowledge from vet school and nutrition courses and all you are saying over and over is... well, based on my ecology and evolution degrees... it isn't possible for blah, blah, blah, blah... you are now just talking out your ass. You honestly have no clue what goes on in the veterinary world or veterinary research and you don't have any idea of animal physiology, metabolism or nutrition.

And you are being close-minded... it isn't name calling if someone is actually being that way. Apparently, it is ok for you to call an entire profession close-minded but when you won't listen to those that actually have the education, done the research and provided you with the scientific articles.. yeah that is rather close-minded.

I don't think a raw based diet is horribly wrong for a dog, nor would I ever say so..but I strongly believe that it is incredibly difficult to maintain this diet in a home. I would never, personally, recommend it for anyone and for a client that is adamant about this type of diet I would implore them to see a board certified veterinary nutritionist to be certain that their dog is getting a well-balanced diet. What it boils down to is what everything in life boils down to: time and money. The great majority of pet owners do not have the time nor the money to create and maintain a proper, well-balanced raw diet for their dog... dry dog food, or even canned dog food if you prefer, can offer this at a cheaper price and so that it does not take near as much time to feed. As a vet, I am in charge of the welfare of the pets in my care... I will recommend the dry or canned foods over a raw based diet simply because I know those are going to provide that dog with a well-balanced diet, if asked about raw diets I will tell them the same thing I have said... a well-balanced raw diet is expensive and difficult to maintain properly and the consequences of not maintaining this type of diet can be quite severe...

Here is a brief article discussing a few different peer-reviewed articles in which, at the end of the article, even the vet who SUPPORTS a raw-based diet says, well it isn't right for all dogs and the goes on to list those dogs that a raw-based diet is not ideal for:

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/raw-dog-food-dietary-concerns-benefits-and-risks
 
And to call me closed-minded is simply name-calling. I've already conceded to you that raw feeding is not the best option for everyone and that vets need to consider the health of a whole family when considering care and diet. And I don't know why you mention breeders, I haven't.

You have been calling all of us closed minded. We have all given you dozens of points on why feeding raw can be bad for your pet but you are brushing all of them off. I mention breeders because that's where a lot of people get there information from and breeders like to advocate that type of diet. Since you have only provided 1 case study and nothing else besides a case on cats which isn't relevant, I am assuming your sources are not credible since you have not cited any evidence. Provide better sources and maybe some pre-vet/ vet students will take you more seriously. You say that research has to come from somewhere- but you are not doing any research at all.

My whole point: you can put your dog on a untested treatment plan. Go right ahead. Just don't blame veterinarians for not advocating it since the information that is out right now is that these kind of diets can make you and your pet sick.
 
I only went to vet school because I couldn't get into DO school. And I only applied to DO because I applied to every MD program with subsequent denial.
More Sarcasm. I'm catching on now....

and they WERE pretty rustled for a minute!
 
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Woah...I don't even know how it got to this point, but I'm disappointed. I wish we could've been more mature and not gone off on a tangent...
 
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