VIN: Accreditation under fire in veterinary medicine

[Pomona2006]

I'm not sure whether it's been discussed yet, but has anyone seen the article on accreditation from VIN on February 26, 2010. It's a bit too long to paste here, but the article can be found at : http://news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=15111

Anyone want to share their thoughts?!

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[Bill59]

Banfield wants to hire veterinarians as cheaply as possible and the best way to do this is to get the schools to pump out more new graduates. They tried to get California to change the law to allow Mexican graduates to get licensed in Ca like AVMA-accredited graduates.

When that didn't work they helped start a new school at Western. And they've been fighting to get Western fully accredited despite the fact the school doesn't do research or have a teaching hospital, 2 of the main things COE says they look at.

So now they are doing the same thing for UNAM. It's going to be really tough for US graduates with $200k debt to compete with hundreds of UNAM graduates with no debt.

If you think the debt:salary ratio sucks now, wait until this happens.

 

[sumstorm]

Yeah, I have been following threads on VIN about the Mexican university...and I have concerns.

 

[No Imagination]

thank you for this

 

[starlene45]

Very interesting article.

Whatever the COE decides, transparency is going to be the KEY to getting people to accept it.

I do wish it talked a bit more about UNAM and it's curriculum. It mentions "many differences" btwn UNAM and US schools, and that the curriculum is heavily focused on "animal husbandry" but then also says that Banfield built them a teaching hospital... So... what are they doing with that hospital... How does one base a vet med curriculum on "animal husbandry"? It's just strange.

Also IM (always) HO, I don't think a lack of a teaching hospital should be the only barrier to Western's full accreditation, especially in this economic climate. If they have ways to get students into real-life practices (and they do, the hospital I tech'd at was one of those practices), then why do they need their own building? I understand there are other issues with their accreditation other than the hospital (like research or something?), but I'm just saying...

 

[No Imagination]

I don't think a lack of a teaching hospital should be the only barrier to Western's full accreditation, especially in this economic climate. If they have ways to get students into real-life practices (and they do, the hospital I tech'd at was one of those practices), then why do they need their own building? I understand there are other issues with their accreditation other than the hospital (like research or something?), but I'm just saying...

I agree, but as I understand it, the AVMA is constantly getting on other vet schools about their teaching hospitals being up to par (as the article states, down to "cracks in the concrete". iirc, that was one of Tuskegee's problems. Now if you don't need a teaching hospital for accreditation, then the private practices that take these students should be held to the same level of scrutiny that vet schools are held to, which if you beleive the article, they are not (currently anyway).

I believe the article said it was "Part 1/2", so perhaps we will get some more information when it is finished.

 

[Bill59]

Also IM (always) HO, I don't think a lack of a teaching hospital should be the only barrier to Western's full accreditation, especially in this economic climate. If they have ways to get students into real-life practices (and they do, the hospital I tech'd at was one of those practices), then why do they need their own building?

Because the AVMAs written criteria state schools have to be affiliated with a teaching hospital. It doesn't say anything about exceptions based on the economy.

If the AVMA feels farming out students to practices is an acceptable alternative to a teaching hospital then I think the profession should have that discussion.

 

[alliecat44]

If the AVMA feels farming out students to practices is an acceptable alternative to a teaching hospital then I think the profession should have that discussion.

And standards for those practices should be set in stone and not wavered upon...

Drives me nuts that there are no standards for my own school's required private practice stuff! I can't imagine if my entire fourth year was in practices where there were nothing set.

That said, the few Western folks I've met have been very competent.

 

[Bill59]

That said, the few Western folks I've met have been very competent.

I agree. I don't think anyone is criticizing the students/graduates of Western or UNAM.

 

[random23]

I think there was a follow up article yesterday on VIN on this topic. Seems like they still haven't decided? They brought up some interesting comments from vets who have worked with Mexican grads and even from a US vet who went to UNAM and came back to the US to practice.

As a student at a foreign AVMA accredited school, I worry that if UNAM is accredited it may cast suspicion on the accreditation of all international schools. Regardless of our AVMA accreditation here, our schools (in the UK) are definitely more than on par with US schools, but I worry that US vets who aren't familiar with the education here may doubt that....

do you think these concerns are justified? I would hate for the AVMA decision to have some effect on graduates of accredited european/australian programs who have worked just as hard as US students...

 

[LLIPPY]

Alright. From a Westerner's birds eye view here. There IS research at Western and I can tell you this because I am in the midst of Grant writing now. We obviously aren't known as a research institution but the research that is here is taken very seriously, competitive to be a part of and the school is working non-stop to hire more, build their research and comply to accredidation standards.

Also, the AVMA has strict guidelines about who can be considerded a teaching hospital and there are approved places with boarded vets with a certain amount of proved caseload. Its not a free for all to go where you want. We have many teaching hospitals per se. While I agree that AVMA may need to ammend some things to fit a new way of thinking to be considered "fair" that's how life in 2010 is. If veterinarians can't be ready for changes like this than we are in trouble.

One could also argue because we are under such scrutiny we are constantly striving. Some school get complacent. When I went to one interview last year of another school on "limited" accrediation the Dean said the reason for this was because they were told by avma they needed to fix pox marks in their equine walking area. When avma came back, it hadn't been done so they were put on limited accrediation. To me, that's complacence.

Last point, last year, western was the #1 school for students to receive interbships. Exactly because we get out there and the way we are trained.

I know no one was western bashing, I just think before you say thing like "western has no research" and re-iterate an opinion article on VIN know the facts or ask someone who does.

 

[dyachei]

One could also argue because we are under such scrutiny we are constantly striving. Some school get complacent. When I went to one interview last year of another school on "limited" accrediation the Dean said the reason for this was because they were told by avma they needed to fix pox marks in their equine walking area. When avma came back, it hadn't been done so they were put on limited accrediation. To me, that's complacence.

Its not really complacency so much as funding issues amidst a poor economy. But those problems have been fixed now. When you go to a state school, you don't always get to choose what gets fixed and it can be a challenge to get school boards to see the importance AVMA accreditation.

 

[Bill59]

When I went to one interview last year of another school on "limited" accrediation the Dean said the reason for this was because they were told by avma they needed to fix pox marks in their equine walking area.

Does Western have an equine hospital?

 

[dvm'08]

Last point, last year, western was the #1 school for students to receive interbships. Exactly because we get out there and the way we are trained.

Where is the data to support this?

 

[Bill59]

For 2010 Internship and Residency Matching Program, based on school of graduation, the top schools (>70%) were Auburn, UCDavis, Florida, Missouri, Penn, Tennessee and Wisconsin. (From VIRMP)

 

[Angelo84]

For 2010 Internship and Residency Matching Program, based on school of graduation, the top schools (>70%) were Auburn, UCDavis, Florida, Missouri, Penn, Tennessee and Wisconsin. (From VIRMP)

Is this >70 % the percent of students that applied that matched from a given school or the percent of the graduation class that matched? Ie if only the top ten people applied and seven got internships is 70% and if 70% of the entire class got internships that is a very different number.

 

[Bill59]

# applicants matched / (total applicants - # withdrawn)

 

[Angelo84]

# applicants matched / (total applicants - # withdrawn)

Thanks. That makes sense I couldn't imagine more than 70% of a given class going into internships.