Voc Rehab for Medical School? (I have 12 months for GI Bill left)

[Rhorn]

Hi,

Longtime lurker here. I am getting close to my journey in becoming a physician. I made my first post several years ago back when I was deployed.

I am going to be getting my bachelors degree this spring, and I have around 12 months of the GI Bill left. I have a pretty good GPA, clinical and research experience. Just need to take the MCAT and I should be good.

I have been told that it is possible to use Voc Rehab for professional schools like graduate school/law school/medical school etc.. I saved my GI Bill so that I would have an easier time getting approved (was told you should save some time on the Bill for graduate school).

Would like to know if it is indeed possible to have my entire time in medical school covered under the VAs dime (I am going in with the expectation of not taking out a loan, and possibly still getting the monthly BAH stipend from the GI Bill) and if anyone could share any experiences that they have had so that I can prepare myself.

For reference I was medically retired and have a 100% P&T rating (just got this last year). The only problem I can foresee happening are my service connection disabilities, primarily PTSD. I claimed PTSD, however the claim came back as Unspecified Trauma and Stressor Related Disorder with Alcohol use disorder in remission, not PTSD and I only have a 70% rating for it so I don't officially have PTSD. I am 100% from a combined rating not because of a single one.

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[xffan624]

Start by reading this thread.

Several posters have reported using Voc Rehab for medical school (including myself) so it's definitely possible. There is some debate whether the GI Bill benefits are used up when you use Voc Rehab or whether you can go beyond 48 months of benefits. I did not see my GI Bill used up while using voc rehab and I was able to use my leftover GI Bill in Residency (about 26 months) for the sweet tax free monthly stipend. Other people report different.

That's the good news. Unfortunately the system is a little messed up so whether you are approved or not. It is somewhat counselor dependent. That's where the thread linked above can come in handy because there are strategies you can employ to increase your likelihood of approval and get around an obstinate counselor. The first step is applying for the program from the VA website. I wouldn't do that though until you have a medical school acceptance in hand.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Rhorn]

Start by reading this thread.

Several posters have reported using Voc Rehab for medical school (including myself) so it's definitely possible. There is some debate whether the GI Bill benefits are used up when you use Voc Rehab or whether you can go beyond 48 months of benefits. I did not see my GI Bill used up while using voc rehab and I was able to use my leftover GI Bill in Residency (about 26 months) for the sweet tax free monthly stipend. Other people report different.

That's the good news. Unfortunately the system is a little messed up so whether you are approved or not. It is somewhat counselor dependent. That's where the thread linked above can come in handy because there are strategies you can employ to increase your likelihood of approval and get around an obstinate counselor. The first step is applying for the program from the VA website. I wouldn't do that though until you have a medical school acceptance in hand.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Okay thanks! I read the other post about the Journey of a user here. Wow I always though that the Voc Rehab used up your GI Bill (Also didn't know you could use GI Bill for Residency). So did you collect the tax free stipend while you were on Voc Rehab in Medical school?

Yes I heard that ultimately it's 100% counselor dependent. My brother used it and his counselor was amazing, but when I went to community college I heard the ones in LA were really bad. I was hoping that some of the process may have been more standardized or more clear by now since its been over 7 years since I heard about it. Looks like it's still convoluted which isn't a surprise because its the VA.

Thanks for the info!

 

[xffan624]

Okay thanks! I read the other post about the Journey of a user here. Wow I always though that the Voc Rehab used up your GI Bill (Also didn't know you could use GI Bill for Residency). So did you collect the tax free stipend while you were on Voc Rehab in Medical school?

Yes I heard that ultimately it's 100% counselor dependent. My brother used it and his counselor was amazing, but when I went to community college I heard the ones in LA were really bad. I was hoping that some of the process may have been more standardized or more clear by now since its been over 7 years since I heard about it. Looks like it's still convoluted which isn't a surprise because its the VA.

Thanks for the info!

Yes. I got the stipend in medical school as well as my books and board exam costs covered. I applied back in 2014 so my experience is dated as well unfortunately. I hope the program has improved.

 

[BC_89]

Okay thanks! I read the other post about the Journey of a user here. Wow I always though that the Voc Rehab used up your GI Bill (Also didn't know you could use GI Bill for Residency). So did you collect the tax free stipend while you were on Voc Rehab in Medical school?

Yes I heard that ultimately it's 100% counselor dependent. My brother used it and his counselor was amazing, but when I went to community college I heard the ones in LA were really bad. I was hoping that some of the process may have been more standardized or more clear by now since its been over 7 years since I heard about it. Looks like it's still convoluted which isn't a surprise because its the VA.

Thanks for the info!

Just to clarify (as the CFR codes put out for GI BIll and Voc-Rehab can be confusing) - Chapter 31 (Voc-Rehab) DOES use up your GI Bill. However, you would still get the 48 month entitlement for school coverage when both benefits are combined. You could also get an extension of benefits beyond 48 months if you are labelled as being a "serious employment handicapped" applicant (SEH). Your soon-to-be counselor would use the following link to verify that you qualify for benefits beyond 48 months (GI Bill + Voc-Rehab combined):

38 CFR § 21.52 - Determining serious employment handicap. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

In your example, let's say you go ahead as planned and save 12 months of post 9/11 and was able to opt-in for Voc-Rehab without an SEH extension. What would happen is for every day you are on Voc-Rehab, a day is taken from post 9/11. So, after 12 months of Voc-Rehab, you would no longer have any post 9/11 remaining. It is a day-for-day trade.

Now, the rarity is that some people fell through the cracks somehow (error on the system) and was able to recoup the post 9/11 amount they had going into Voc-Rehab when the day-to-day trade should've used up their post 9/11 benefits. Some veterans who went on to use those benefits have received a 100% claw-back and had to repay the amount. Sooner or later, an audit is done for annual reports and if something seems off they go hunting.

For me, I never touched my GI Bill and went straight into pharmacy school with Voc-Rehab. I've used 24 months of the benefits and as such, 24 months of my 36 months of post 9/11 has been taken away. However, with the 48 month rule of combined benefits, I still have 24 months worth of education covered through the more prestigious Chapter 31 program.

The importance however to save at least 1 day of your GI Bill benefits is so you can receive the higher BAH payment that comes from post 9/11 rather than the lower stipend offered for Voc-Rehab. Anyway, that's a small snap-shot of how the program works. It's also good to check in every 6 months from congress because changes are constantly happening. As of right now, that is the rule set by the CFR codes for education / employment benefits.

 

[Rhorn]

Just to clarify (as the CFR codes put out for GI BIll and Voc-Rehab can be confusing) - Chapter 31 (Voc-Rehab) DOES use up your GI Bill. However, you would still get the 48 month entitlement for school coverage when both benefits are combined. You could also get an extension of benefits beyond 48 months if you are labelled as being a "serious employment handicapped" applicant (SEH). Your soon-to-be counselor would use the following link to verify that you qualify for benefits beyond 48 months (GI Bill + Voc-Rehab combined):

38 CFR § 21.52 - Determining serious employment handicap. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

In your example, let's say you go ahead as planned and save 12 months of post 9/11 and was able to opt-in for Voc-Rehab without an SEH extension. What would happen is for every day you are on Voc-Rehab, a day is taken from post 9/11. So, after 12 months of Voc-Rehab, you would no longer have any post 9/11 remaining. It is a day-for-day trade.

Now, the rarity is that some people fell through the cracks somehow (error on the system) and was able to recoup the post 9/11 amount they had going into Voc-Rehab when the day-to-day trade should've used up their post 9/11 benefits. Some veterans who went on to use those benefits have received a 100% claw-back and had to repay the amount. Sooner or later, an audit is done for annual reports and if something seems off they go hunting.

For me, I never touched my GI Bill and went straight into pharmacy school with Voc-Rehab. I've used 2 years of the benefits and as such, 24 months of my 36 months of post 9/11 has been taken away. However, with the 48 month rule of combined benefits, I still have 24 months worth of education covered through the more prestigious Chapter 31 program.

The importance however to save at least 1 day of your GI Bill benefits is so you can receive the higher BAH payment that comes from post 9/11 rather than the lower stipend offered for Voc-Rehab. Anyway, that's a small snap-shot of how the program works. It's also good to check in every 6 months from congress because changes are constantly happening. As of right now, that is the rule set by the CFR codes for education / employment benefits.

Okay thanks! That clears up alot of the confusion for me. Hopefully it will workout for me.

Saw that congress is trying to make some changes for medical retirees, hopefully that will go through as it will greatly benefit me.

 

[xffan624]

Just to clarify (as the CFR codes put out for GI BIll and Voc-Rehab can be confusing) - Chapter 31 (Voc-Rehab) DOES use up your GI Bill. However, you would still get the 48 month entitlement for school coverage when both benefits are combined. You could also get an extension of benefits beyond 48 months if you are labelled as being a "serious employment handicapped" applicant (SEH). Your soon-to-be counselor would use the following link to verify that you qualify for benefits beyond 48 months (GI Bill + Voc-Rehab combined):

38 CFR § 21.52 - Determining serious employment handicap. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

In your example, let's say you go ahead as planned and save 12 months of post 9/11 and was able to opt-in for Voc-Rehab without an SEH extension. What would happen is for every day you are on Voc-Rehab, a day is taken from post 9/11. So, after 12 months of Voc-Rehab, you would no longer have any post 9/11 remaining. It is a day-for-day trade.

Now, the rarity is that some people fell through the cracks somehow (error on the system) and was able to recoup the post 9/11 amount they had going into Voc-Rehab when the day-to-day trade should've used up their post 9/11 benefits. Some veterans who went on to use those benefits have received a 100% claw-back and had to repay the amount. Sooner or later, an audit is done for annual reports and if something seems off they go hunting.

For me, I never touched my GI Bill and went straight into pharmacy school with Voc-Rehab. I've used 24 months of the benefits and as such, 24 months of my 36 months of post 9/11 has been taken away. However, with the 48 month rule of combined benefits, I still have 24 months worth of education covered through the more prestigious Chapter 31 program.

The importance however to save at least 1 day of your GI Bill benefits is so you can receive the higher BAH payment that comes from post 9/11 rather than the lower stipend offered for Voc-Rehab. Anyway, that's a small snap-shot of how the program works. It's also good to check in every 6 months from congress because changes are constantly happening. As of right now, that is the rule set by the CFR codes for education / employment benefits.

My counselor flat out told me midway through medical school that my GI Bill was not used up by my voc rehab. I have not experienced any clawback of my GI Bill which I ran out of in 2019, but I guess by the time that may or may not happen I will be able to afford the bill with my doctor pay.

 

[BC_89]

My counselor flat out told me midway through medical school that my GI Bill was not used up by my voc rehab. I have not experienced any clawback of my GI Bill which I ran out of in 2019, but I guess by the time that may or may not happen I will be able to afford the bill with my doctor pay.

No shame in me admitting that if I had the ability to capitalize on my GI Bill knowing that it's supposed to run out, I'd use it as well. That chunk of change of BAH on top of a residency can easily go a long way.

 

[BC_89]

Okay thanks! I read the other post about the Journey of a user here. Wow I always though that the Voc Rehab used up your GI Bill (Also didn't know you could use GI Bill for Residency). So did you collect the tax free stipend while you were on Voc Rehab in Medical school?

Yes I heard that ultimately it's 100% counselor dependent. My brother used it and his counselor was amazing, but when I went to community college I heard the ones in LA were really bad. I was hoping that some of the process may have been more standardized or more clear by now since its been over 7 years since I heard about it. Looks like it's still convoluted which isn't a surprise because its the VA.

Thanks for the info!

Just to clarify (as the CFR codes put out for GI BIll and Voc-Rehab can be confusing) - Chapter 31 (Voc-Rehab) DOES use up your GI Bill......

I wanted to re-bump this specific conversation since the recent announcement was made (effective April 1st into CFR statues/laws) concerning VR&E and GI Bill:

As of right now, VR&E does NOT use up your GI Bill. If any extra is needed for medical school or residency, you can dip into the benefits of the GI Bill that otherwise would've been used up from VR&E.

Definitely a great change in direction and clarity.

 

[Rhorn]

I wanted to re-bump this specific conversation since the recent announcement was made (effective April 1st into CFR statues/laws) concerning VR&E and GI Bill:

As of right now, VR&E does NOT use up your GI Bill. If any extra is needed for medical school or residency, you can dip into the benefits of the GI Bill that otherwise would've been used up from VR&E.

Definitely a great change in direction and clarity.

Thank you for responding I heard the announcement too. I was confused at first but then I remembered that this was same exact situation that you and the other guy was in.

I wonder if it's retroactive but I don't think it is

 

[xffan624]

Thank you for responding I heard the announcement too. I was confused at first but then I remembered that this was same exact situation that you and the other guy was in.

I wonder if it's retroactive but I don't think it is

Check the FAQs. They were pretty comprehensive so it may answer it. How many months of GI Bill does eBenefits say you have?

 

[BC_89]

Thank you for responding I heard the announcement too. I was confused at first but then I remembered that this was same exact situation that you and the other guy was in.

I wonder if it's retroactive but I don't think it is

They seem to be updating frequently but as of now this is the latest information (FAQs) that is provided on their educational beneficiaries page:

Changes to the 48 month rule for VR&E and Education Benficiaries (va.gov)

Since we now know the new ruling is VR&E no longer takes away benefits of the GI Bill but that the GI Bill still does take count against the 48-month rule of VR&E (for future readers let that sink in), the following statement put out might apply to you depending on how reclassification of past benefits is worded for your situation (or the retroactive process I'll call it):

"The use of entitlement in any VA education program impacts the amount of remaining VR&E entitlement that a Veteran may be eligible to receive. It may be possible for a Veteran to have entitlement previously used in a VA education program reclassified as entitlement used in VR&E, which could possibly result in additional entitlement to other VA education programs. However, it is important to note that this process is very limited and restricted by law and regulation; not every Veteran with a service-connected disability will qualify for retroactive induction."

If for any reason you still need assistance and given your 100% P&T status, I would keenly and loosely keep in mind about the "wash-out" benefit you have in filing for a clean-slate from student loans right before graduation (should their be any loans). Submit the VA summary letter generated based off your current disabilities in ebenefits and file it to the U.S. Department of Education. With that, I'll leave the "integrity-bar" of how that process works entirely up to you.

 

[Rhorn]

Check the FAQs. They were pretty comprehensive so it may answer it. How many months of GI Bill does eBenefits say you have?

Okay I'll check them out. Thanks.. I have 13 months and 11 days left. I'm graduating in June, so I'll have 12 or 11 months left

 

[Rhorn]

They seem to be updating frequently but as of now this is the latest information (FAQs) that is provided on their educational beneficiaries page:

Changes to the 48 month rule for VR&E and Education Benficiaries (va.gov)

Since we now know the new ruling is VR&E no longer takes away benefits of the GI Bill but that the GI Bill still does take count against the 48-month rule of VR&E (for future readers let that sink in), the following statement put out might apply to you depending on how reclassification of past benefits is worded for your situation (or the retroactive process I'll call it):

"The use of entitlement in any VA education program impacts the amount of remaining VR&E entitlement that a Veteran may be eligible to receive. It may be possible for a Veteran to have entitlement previously used in a VA education program reclassified as entitlement used in VR&E, which could possibly result in additional entitlement to other VA education programs. However, it is important to note that this process is very limited and restricted by law and regulation; not every Veteran with a service-connected disability will qualify for retroactive induction."

If for any reason you still need assistance and given your 100% P&T status, I would keenly and loosely keep in mind about the "wash-out" benefit you have in filing for a clean-slate from student loans right before graduation (should their be any loans). Submit the VA summary letter generated based off your current disabilities in ebenefits and file it to the U.S. Department of Education. With that, I'll leave the "integrity-bar" of how that process works entirely up to you.

Okay I'm honestly confused now. So they are saying the 48 month rule still counts against you? It seems like you will have to pull strings to not have it count against you, so its changed but not really.

Maybe everything will be sorted in a few months. I remember when they announced the Eidth Scholarship it was really impossible to get any information on it despite it being on a "first come first serve" basis.

Yeah im going to use the discharge as a last ditch effort if everything else fails.

 

[BC_89]

The true power in the change is for those currently on VR&E AND having the extended benefit to use up GI Bill once VR&E employment/education has been fulfilled.

If you have already been using the GI Bill then yes, it'll count against the 48-month rule of VR&E. However, once you use up your VR&E, you can always switch back and continue what is left of the GI Bill.

For instance, if you are granted VR&E and at the time you have 12 months left of your GI Bill, then the 24 months worth of post 9/11 you used would count against 24 months worth of VR&E ( 48 - 24 ). You then would be able to use 24 months worth of VR&E while in medical school. Once the remaining 24 months is fulfilled, you may then switch over to your remaining 12 months of GI Bill toward medical school.

Also keep in mind, since you're 100% P&T, you could be granted the Serious Employment Handicap (SEH) veteran status and thus be granted an extension of your VR&E benefits to stay with you all the way until you graduate medical school. If this happens, then you'd be able to use the extra 12 months of GI Bill during your first year of residency and pocket that BAH.

Given the pandemic, and you about to graduate, I would sign up NOW through ebenefits and apply for "Veteran Readiness & Employment Program" (No longer called Vocational Rehabilitation & Employment) under the educational benefits tab. They're backed up and it may take a few months until you see a counselor but it'd still be worth it to act now rather than later and see what possible benefits you may be granted with your current rating and presentation of your disabilities.

 

[MusicDOc124]

We've got some great info that has already been commented here as well as a few other threads.

Highly suggest applying for VRE ASAP now with the recent April 1 change.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Sounds like a BS reason to say so based on your original post.

remember they don’t dictate what you do. You can still go to Med school. Allow them to deny you, and then get a letter from your physician stating that the job won’t affect your SCs any more than virtually any other job, but has the potential to aggravate it less than many others. Submit as a supplemental when that time comes.

 

[xffan624]

Yea I am already about to be through the first year of med school. The weirdest part was what she said about being able to complete med school meaning the ratings must not be true. But, the people who gave me the ratings... knew I was already well into school (I just had the exams/got the rating 2 months ago). Doesn't that mean they considered the ratings appropriate after taking into account my ability to go to med school just fine?

I am supposed to get medical providers to sign off that med school wouldn't aggravate my disabilities now. I wonder if I can get in touch with the 2 C&P examiners.

Yeah, like I said before the program is messed up. How does being a radiologist aggravate your disabilities? Is there a disability that requires frequent sunshine and not staring at a screen in a dark room?

A VRE counselor should not be questioning your disabilities. They're not a medical doctor. I can't give you specific advice ( had a great counselor who made sure I was approved without much heartache or bother) except to say if you can somehow get a new counselor that might be a good first step.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Definitely messed up.

While they're not medical doctors, it is their job to take into consideration the rated disabilities and in their opinion if they think any of them could be exacerbated. The part they cannot do is suggest that you don't meet criteria or have correctly related disabilities.

Supplemental claim would likely be the best initial route with letters written from your physician(s) in support of the current route. This will give you the most fire power IMO.

 

[ajstutz72]

This was super informative, thank you!

Just to clarify (as the CFR codes put out for GI BIll and Voc-Rehab can be confusing) - Chapter 31 (Voc-Rehab) DOES use up your GI Bill. However, you would still get the 48 month entitlement for school coverage when both benefits are combined. You could also get an extension of benefits beyond 48 months if you are labelled as being a "serious employment handicapped" applicant (SEH). Your soon-to-be counselor would use the following link to verify that you qualify for benefits beyond 48 months (GI Bill + Voc-Rehab combined):

38 CFR § 21.52 - Determining serious employment handicap. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)

In your example, let's say you go ahead as planned and save 12 months of post 9/11 and was able to opt-in for Voc-Rehab without an SEH extension. What would happen is for every day you are on Voc-Rehab, a day is taken from post 9/11. So, after 12 months of Voc-Rehab, you would no longer have any post 9/11 remaining. It is a day-for-day trade.

Now, the rarity is that some people fell through the cracks somehow (error on the system) and was able to recoup the post 9/11 amount they had going into Voc-Rehab when the day-to-day trade should've used up their post 9/11 benefits. Some veterans who went on to use those benefits have received a 100% claw-back and had to repay the amount. Sooner or later, an audit is done for annual reports and if something seems off they go hunting.

For me, I never touched my GI Bill and went straight into pharmacy school with Voc-Rehab. I've used 24 months of the benefits and as such, 24 months of my 36 months of post 9/11 has been taken away. However, with the 48 month rule of combined benefits, I still have 24 months worth of education covered through the more prestigious Chapter 31 program.

The importance however to save at least 1 day of your GI Bill benefits is so you can receive the higher BAH payment that comes from post 9/11 rather than the lower stipend offered for Voc-Rehab. Anyway, that's a small snap-shot of how the program works. It's also good to check in every 6 months from congress because changes are constantly happening. As of right now, that is the rule set by the CFR codes for education / employment benefits.

 

[BC_89]

This was super informative, thank you!

Be sure to double check the update talked about on here from April 1st (Chapter 31 no longer takes away from the GI Bill). See Below quote:

I wanted to re-bump this specific conversation since the recent announcement was made (effective April 1st into CFR statues/laws) concerning VR&E and GI Bill:

As of right now, VR&E does NOT use up your GI Bill. If any extra is needed for medical school or residency, you can dip into the benefits of the GI Bill that otherwise would've been used up from VR&E.

Definitely a great change in direction and clarity.

 

[BC_89]

Yea I am already about to be through the first year of med school. The weirdest part was what she said about being able to complete med school meaning the ratings must not be true. But, the people who gave me the ratings... knew I was already well into school (I just had the exams/got the rating 2 months ago). Doesn't that mean they considered the ratings appropriate after taking into account my ability to go to med school just fine?

I am supposed to get medical providers to sign off that med school wouldn't aggravate my disabilities now. I wonder if I can get in touch with the 2 C&P examiners.

I can only triple testify what others have stated concerning "how" you were told to use your benefits (being garbage in its purest form).

Keep a record of communication and dates of initial submission of your paperwork. The good news here is once you've established on paper that med school doesn't aggravate your specific future career goal(s) (proper signatures and what not from current physicians and/or examiners), you'll be back-paid any school costs associated with your studies from your original filing for benefits up to your present time in schooling.