VR Anatomy worth it?

[hikeNE123]

Hi Everyone,

I'm an incoming M1 and we were recently informed that we are going entirely remote for the first 5 months.

Anatomy is the first course we take and thus it too is remote. We are using the "complete anatomy app" for instruction. Does anyone have experience with this and how does it compare to the real thing?

Also, does anyone have experience with VR anatomy apps such as Organon and are they worth the price? I am worried that using a 2D representation on a computer screen will limit understanding of 3D structure.

Thanks!

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[teenyfish]

I used it last semester after having in-person lab. I mean, it’s fine and helpful but nothing compares to an actual cadaver. But, anatomy lab is long and tedious and I did much better during my virtual semester. complete anatomy is 3D, you definitely do not need VR to understand anatomy. Just get an atlas with cadaver pictures if you’re worried about it.

 

[scubascuba]

I've used both Complete Anatomy and Organon. They're both cool and I don't think neither one is particularly better than the other. Also not sure if this was just an issue with mine since I was using a lower model VR but the resolution on Organon could have been better. If your school is giving you access to Complete Anatomy, then I'd say go with that. I don't think the VR would give you any advantage.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I ankied my way through anatomy using a cadaver deck. There are a couple good ones out there. We had the option of going into the lab to look at prosections for the modules after COVID started, and I think I went in once. Anki was good enough.

 

[nappingPeanut]

I'm in the same boat hikeNE123 and I'm saddened that we're not having gross anatomy lab this fall. Anatomical dissection is such a visceral and memorable experience that I really don't think should be disregarded. I'd much rather pull forward second semester didactic or second year didactic to preserve gross anatomy lab. Otherwise the training just feels like coursera.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm in the same boat hikeNE123 and I'm saddened that we're not having gross anatomy lab this fall. Anatomical dissection is such a visceral and memorable experience that I really don't think should be disregarded. I'd much rather pull forward second semester didactic or second year didactic to preserve gross anatomy lab. Otherwise the training just feels like coursera.

Eh. After you spend hours dissecting out so many vessels, muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc that you can’t even keep track any more, it gets old. They have you spend so much time cleaning the structures, especially in MSK, that you actually don’t learn a ton in the lab. I did the bulk of my learning using anki on my own time. But I totally get wanting the experience. Sucks that you guys are getting robbed.

 

[bushidosurvives]

Eh. After you spend hours dissecting out so many vessels, muscles, tendons, ligaments, etc that you can’t even keep track any more, it gets old. They have you spend so much time cleaning the structures, especially in MSK, that you actually don’t learn a ton in the lab. I did the bulk of my learning using anki on my own time. But I totally get wanting the experience. Sucks that you guys are getting robbed.

For me, gross anatomy with dissection was the only decent block of preclinicals with the exception of one well taught organ system. Dissection did not get "old" and I used to spend extra time in that lab fine tuning my hand skills and understanding spatial relationships. Au contraire, I honored anatomy and did not use Anki whatsoever. Dissecting and visualizing structures in a cadaver really helped with retention. I also hated complete anatomy or whatever 3d visualization program was out at that time. It just did not do the subject justice. ....It is absurd that you guys are going to get robbed of that experience.

 

[PapaGuava]

Complete anatomy is a good tool to test content information but when looking in a cadaver it won’t exactly be organized that way. Although you didn’t have as much active learning in anatomy lab, there is something to be said about going through that course and seeing the whole human body for the first time, so I’m sad you won’t be able to see the cadavers at all. It wasn’t a hard course to study for as long as you took the time to go into lab a few times after hours. @hikeNE123


Also, together with an atlas, complete anatomy is a good resource tool when beginning to study for each anatomy block.

 

[feathersMD]

I don't think VR is necessary.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For me, gross anatomy with dissection was the only decent block of preclinicals with the exception of one well taught organ system. Dissection did not get "old" and I used to spend extra time in that lab fine tuning my hand skills and understanding spatial relationships. Au contraire, I honored anatomy and did not use Anki whatsoever. Dissecting and visualizing structures in a cadaver really helped with retention. I also hated complete anatomy or whatever 3d visualization program was out at that time. It just did not do the subject justice. ....It is absurd that you guys are going to get robbed of that experience.

That’s nice. I didn’t get robbed of anything. We spent like 15 hours in the anatomy lab every single week for the entire MSK block and for most of CPR. Even without the time during GI and neuro, I spent almost 6 months in that place.

It sounds like you might have had a separate anatomy block. We have anatomy integrated into the entire preclerkship curriculum, and it gets old after months and months of it.

I do think that it is a formative experience that every med student should go through, so it is a shame if the new class doesn’t get to do it at all. But it’s absurd to think any of them will somehow have a poorer medical knowledge because of it.

 

[Cornfed101]

Complete anatomy is helpful to see things in 3D, but make sure you spend the bulk of your time studying cadaver images. I learned that after almost failing my first practical exam. Cadavers are just a lot messier. Complete anatomy is just too “clean”

 

[bushidosurvives]

That’s nice. I didn’t get robbed of anything. We spent like 15 hours in the anatomy lab every single week for the entire MSK block and for most of CPR. Even without the time during GI and neuro, I spent almost 6 months in that place.

It sounds like you might have had a separate anatomy block. We have anatomy integrated into the entire preclerkship curriculum, and it gets old after months and months of it.

I do think that it is a formative experience that every med student should go through, so it is a shame if the new class doesn’t get to do it at all. But it’s absurd to think any of them will somehow have a poorer medical knowledge because of it.

I would have preferred your curriculum. Complete anatomy or VR based imaging programs cater to a fraction rather than all of a medical school cohort. It is a tool utilized by those who learn well via that modality (not me and quite a few of my friends). However, for those aspiring to be future surgeons, time spent in the anatomy lab dissecting structures in a cadaver prepares them quite well for their mandatory surgery rotations and subsequent sub-internships. Furthermore, complete anatomy is seldom utilized in surgical grand rounds at decent programs. Whats the point of visualizing a structure in a software if you encounter it in the body in a completely different fashion? Ultimately, I would like to see integration between radiology, VR-based imaging software, and cadaver dissection in an anatomy block or integrated curriculum. It would cater to all, not just those trying to go into non-procedural fields.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I would have preferred your curriculum. Complete anatomy or VR based imaging programs cater to a fraction rather than all of a medical school cohort. It is a tool utilized by those who learn well via that modality (not me and quite a few of my friends). However, for those aspiring to be future surgeons, time spent in the anatomy lab dissecting structures in a cadaver prepares them quite well for their mandatory surgery rotations and subsequent sub-internships. Furthermore, complete anatomy is seldom utilized in surgical grand rounds at decent programs. Whats the point of visualizing a structure in a software if you encounter it in the body in a completely different fashion? Ultimately, I would like to see integration between radiology, VR-based imaging software, and cadaver dissection in an anatomy block or integrated curriculum. It would cater to all, not just those trying to go into non-procedural fields.

We didn’t use any VR stuff. Honestly, it might be useful in clarifying relationships in a non-messy setting, but real cadavers are just so much less clean than a VR thing that I don’t think it’s super useful. It’s like training for a test with the answers out and then going to take a real exam.

I like our curriculum because we get anatomy along with every system so everything is integrated. However, the amount of time spent in the lab is a little much during MSK at least. By the time you get stuff cleaned and dissected for each lab, you’ve been in the lab for a couple hours already. That’s time that could be better spent learning. I’d much rather come in and get to put hands on a cadaver that has already been dissected (we did this for GI due to COVID, and it was so much more efficient).

The argument that being in the lab is good prep for future surgeons is not a good one. You learn to be a surgeon in residency, and your rotations are enough to let you know if a surgical field is for you. The overwhelming majority of MS3s aren’t doing any of the actual tissue dissection on their surgery rotation outside of sewing skin.

 

[bushidosurvives]

We didn’t use any VR stuff. Honestly, it might be useful in clarifying relationships in a non-messy setting, but real cadavers are just so much less clean than a VR thing that I don’t think it’s super useful. It’s like training for a test with the answers out and then going to take a real exam.

I like our curriculum because we get anatomy along with every system so everything is integrated. However, the amount of time spent in the lab is a little much during MSK at least. By the time you get stuff cleaned and dissected for each lab, you’ve been in the lab for a couple hours already. That’s time that could be better spent learning. I’d much rather come in and get to put hands on a cadaver that has already been dissected (we did this for GI due to COVID, and it was so much more efficient).

The argument that being in the lab is good prep for future surgeons is not a good one. You learn to be a surgeon in residency, and your rotations are enough to let you know if a surgical field is for you. The overwhelming majority of MS3s aren’t doing any of the actual tissue dissection on their surgery rotation outside of sewing skin.

I humbly disagree. Spending a few hours in a lab and having poor time management to not be able to study for an exam is not a viable excuse. Time spent dissecting during MSK also re-exposes you to neuro/lymphatic/vascular/gyn etc anatomy in the posterior/anterior triangle of the neck, UE/LE/pelvis. Plenty of MS3s that I knew were assisting cases, using the bovie, and performing blunt dissection around structures (obviously within appropriate bounds). The more comfortable you are with tissue dissection, skin closure, and cadaveric anatomy the greater the opportunity to engage in the OR. This also applies to closing skin as I did close fascia 3-4 times and the galea once in my MS3 mandatory rotation. Think about it from the perspective of your attending surgeon when in a surgical case. If they pimp you on relevant anatomy in a live patient and you can't answer, are they going to let you do anything? No. Where do you get the capacity to answer questions correctly... by encountering it in the lab or guessing. You definitely learn how to be a surgeon in a residency but gross anatomy with cadaveric dissection not only bridges the gap between a premed and future surgeon, it also reaffirms your desire to push forward through this lengthy process. The majority of the preclinical curriculum is structured for non-proceduralists, there needs to be an equitable distribution of material to allow those who are considering a surgical specialty to maintain their motivation. >70% of the material that I learned preclinically will be flushed out of my brain by the time I am an attending. The literature is constantly evolving and most of it will not be pertinent to my career.

 

[slowthai]

I humbly disagree. Spending a few hours in a lab and having poor time management to not be able to study for an exam is not a viable excuse. Time spent dissecting during MSK also exposes you to neuro/lymphatic/vascular/gyn etc anatomy in the posterior/anterior triangle of the neck, UE/LE/pelvis.

It has absolutely nothing to do with time management. Traditional anatomy lab is a poor use of time, period. All of the anatomy you listed can be memorized with Anki.

Plenty of MS3s that I knew were assisting cases, using the bovie and performing blunt dissection around structures (obviously within appropriate bounds). The more comfortable you are with tissue dissection, skin closure, and cadaveric anatomy the greater the opportunity to engage in the OR. This also applies to closing skin as I did close fascia 3-4 times and the galea once.

Everyone gunning for surgery and actual surgeons say that anatomy lab is of zero yield. Cadaver tissue is nothing like live tissue whatsoever.

You definitely learn how to be a surgeon in a residency but gross anatomy with cadaver dissection not only bridges that gap but reaffirms your desire to push forward through this lengthy process.

What? The only thing anatomy lab did was
reaffirm my desire to off myself.

 

[bushidosurvives]

It has absolutely nothing to do with time management. Traditional anatomy lab is a poor use of time, period. All of the anatomy you listed can be memorized with Anki.

Anki is not for everyone. The objective is to take that 40-70k tuition and provide a multi-modal training environment. Not just something that caters to a fraction of a class. I wouldn't mind if it was an optional activity much like classroom lectures, so that all of you space bar hitters can develop your finger muscles. But to completely nix it is not appropriate.



Everyone gunning for surgery and actual surgeons say that anatomy lab is of zero yield. Cadaver tissue is nothing like live tissue whatsoever.

This is a blanket statement. There are many attendings, fellows, residents, who see the value in cadaver dissected anatomy. I could see why robotic surgeons and interventionalists don't appreciate its utility but thats because they don't perform open procedures and because they call in specialists when they have to convert. Once again, structures and anatomical planes are very similar between cadaveric and live patients. Why do you think surgical residents have integrated coverage in cadavers? I still see a lot of fellows come across the street and use the cadaveric lab. Using blunt scissors to parse through tissue is a similar process irrespective of the quality of tissue. However, you can develop attention to detail by learning how to parse through cadaveric tissue in a meticulous fashion. Furthermore, I know at least 6-8 students who developed a surgical interest through our gross anatomy lab alone and that was by coming into the place where you wanted to "off yourself."

Here's an article on Dr. Charlie Wilson, a neurosurgical legend, and how he would frequently practice on cadavers as an attending. To cut is to cure.

Charles Wilson, Top Brain Surgeon and Researcher, Dies at 88 (Published 2018)

Dr. Wilson was a deft, busy neurosurgeon in San Francisco but still found time to establish a leading center for the study of tumors.

www.nytimes.com

 

[slowthai]

Here's an article on Dr. Charles Wilson, a neurosurgical legend, and how he would frequently practice on cadavers as an attending. To cut is to cure.

Charles Wilson, Top Brain Surgeon and Researcher, Dies at 88 (Published 2018)

Dr. Wilson was a deft, busy neurosurgeon in San Francisco but still found time to establish a leading center for the study of tumors.

www.nytimes.com

Yes, residents, fellows, and attendings practice approaches and operations on cadavers, but that's completely different from the nonsense that we do as medical students. These people already have the knowledge, skills, and experience to be able to translate what they've practiced in the lab to the OR. Yes, to cut is to cure, but that specifically refers to when you're operating on a real patient.

 

[bushidosurvives]

@slowthai Maybe you should petition your medical school. We had guidance from surgeons on a weekly basis depending on the system we were covering. They would drop into the lab and actually teach us how to handle the tissue. Furthermore, they would gauge our improvement and give us feedback if we did a good job dissecting certain structures. They also afforded shadowing opportunities to individuals interested in their system (ie. how i became interested in my field). Our anatomy faculty were also fantastic and provided us with guidance daily. You might have been involved in nonsense in that lab but I was not. I was taught to respect and appreciate each structure in that donor. That experience was defining in many ways and has brought me to where I am today. I don't have a problem with the activity being optional. Not everyone can tolerate formaldehyde and hours in the lab. However, nixing it is ridiculous. Especially when the replacement is sitting on your computer smashing a space bar for hours. I can tell you that there were plenty of people that I knew who were in the top 10% on USMLE/med school who did not touch Anki or VR-based imaging software. Cheers.

@slowthai As i've stated multiple times above. I do not mind it being optional. But the way things are going/have gone in a lot of medical schools, these structures are either predissected or a shift to a virtual curriculum has been embraced. That is simply not acceptable as there is a fraction of a class that does not study with Anki, irrespective of what you think is time efficient.

 

[slowthai]

Anki is not for everyone. The objective is to take that 40-70k tuition and provide a multi-modal training environment. Not just something that caters to a fraction of a class. I wouldn't mind if it was an optional activity much like classroom lectures, so that all of you space bar hitters can develop your finger muscles. But to completely nix it is not appropriate.

Of course it's not for everyone. I just gave an example of a study tool that is great at what lab fails to do: getting you to remember the largest amount of information in the least amount of time. I have no problem with it being there as a resource. That's fine. But don't make everyone waste their precious time doing something that has questionable value for many.

This is a blanket statement. There are many attendings, fellows, residents, who see the value in cadaver dissected anatomy. I could see why robotic surgeons and interventionalists don't appreciate its utility but thats because they don't perform open procedures and because they call in specialists when they have to convert. Once again, structures and anatomical planes are very similar between cadaveric and live patients. Why do you think surgical residents have integrated coverage in cadavers? I still see a lot of fellows come across the street and use the cadaveric lab. Using blunt scissors to parse through tissue is a similar process irrespective of the quality of tissue. However, you can develop attention to detail by learning how to parse through cadaveric tissue in a meticulous fashion. Furthermore, I know at least 6-8 students who developed a surgical interest through our gross anatomy lab alone and that was by coming into the place where you wanted to "off yourself."

I answered this is my previous post. Nothing wrong with developing interests early on, but there are plenty of surgeons that disliked or even hated anatomy lab because they saw it for the waste of time it is. Like Matthew said, 3rd year (other than aways) is definitely the closest you get to seeing what it's really like before you have to make a decision.

 

[slowthai]

@slowthai Maybe you should petition your medical school. We had guidance from surgeons on a weekly basis depending on the system we were covering. They would drop into the lab and actually teach us how to handle the tissue. Furthermore, they would gauge our improvement and give us feedback if we did a good job dissecting certain structures. They also afforded shadowing opportunities to individuals interested in their system (ie. how i became interested in my field). Our anatomy faculty were also fantastic and provided us with guidance daily. You might have been involved in nonsense in that lab but I was not. I was taught to respect and appreciate each structure in that donor. That experience was defining in many ways and has brought me to where I am today. I don't have a problem with the activity being optional. Not everyone can tolerate formaldehyde and hours in the lab. However, nixing it is ridiculous. Especially when the replacement is sitting on your computer smashing a space bar for hours. I can tell you that there were plenty of people that I knew who were in the top 10% on USMLE/med school who did not touch Anki or VR-based imaging software. Cheers.

I can tell you for sure that your experience is far from the norm.

It's like you have a problem with Anki or something. Yes, anki's not necessary to do well, but it's proven and it works for a lot of people. I'm not dogmatic in my position about this. The only thing that I hold fast to is to do what works for you. That could be Anki or going to lecture, taking notes, and drawing on whiteboards. It all comes down to what study method you like/can tolerate and what allows you to perform well on exams.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I humbly disagree. Spending a few hours in a lab and having poor time management to not be able to study for an exam is not a viable excuse.

It has nothing to do with time managment. When you are given like 2 hours to complete a lab (lab is like 3 hours, but they do a preview, then we have to go look at a prosection at some point during the lab, and then we have a review, so it ends up being like 2 hours maybe 2:15), and the dissection you're doing takes almost the entire time, despite all 4 of you working on it together, then there just isn't a ton of time during the labs to actually go over and review things. We would occasionally get "catch up" days where we just had to finish the previous dissection, and we would use the remaining time to try and go over the stuff we already did.

When literally your entire class has the same issue, it's not a time management issue. And anatomy is not our only class. It is part of our systems blocks, so we have anatomy to prepare for as well as everything else. When we're spending 9 hours a week in the anatomy lab and then also having to study outside of that because of how much time the dissections take, that eats into time I could be learning other things.

And I can count the number of questions I got wrong on the anatomy practicals my entire M1 year on a single hand and was asked to be the class representative on the anatomy committee for the school. So it's not like I'm making an excuse for poor performance. I'm just speaking to the reality of having to do endless dissections during a systems based curriculum when getting to be hands on with a prosection would give you just as much exposure with less wasted time.

Time spent dissecting during MSK also re-exposes you to neuro/lymphatic/vascular/gyn etc anatomy in the posterior/anterior triangle of the neck, UE/LE/pelvis. Plenty of MS3s that I knew were assisting cases, using the bovie, and performing blunt dissection around structures (obviously within appropriate bounds). The more comfortable you are with tissue dissection, skin closure, and cadaveric anatomy the greater the opportunity to engage in the OR.

This also applies to closing skin as I did close fascia 3-4 times and the galea once in my MS3 mandatory rotation. Think about it from the perspective of your attending surgeon when in a surgical case. If they pimp you on relevant anatomy in a live patient and you can't answer, are they going to let you do anything? No. Where do you get the capacity to answer questions correctly... by encountering it in the lab or guessing.

What? Are you trying to say that the only way you could answer a pimp question right on anatomy is if you did the dissections yourself? That's ludicrous. I'm not arguing for zero anatomy lab experience. I'm saying a lot of time is wasted in making students do all the dissection work. Having students come in and get hands on with prosections so that they can touch the bodies and explore the relationships between different structures is much more efficient and just as effective. My class did both over this past year, and our class average went up when we went to that model due to COVID.

If the only way you could answer an anatomy question right is by spending the time to dissect it out in the lab, then your studying is not efficient.

You definitely learn how to be a surgeon in a residency but gross anatomy with cadaveric dissection not only bridges the gap between a premed and future surgeon, it also reaffirms your desire to push forward through this lengthy process. The majority of the preclinical curriculum is structured for non-proceduralists, there needs to be an equitable distribution of material to allow those who are considering a surgical specialty to maintain their motivation. >70% of the material that I learned preclinically will be flushed out of my brain by the time I am an attending. The literature is constantly evolving and most of it will not be pertinent to my career.

If you're (general you) planning on just being a technician, you should have gone to PA school or something. Medicine is a huge part of surgery.

Look, I get that you like the anatomy lab, but you can just say you enjoy it. There are ways for people who really are interested in it to spend more time in the anatomy lab. Be a TA and do dissections for the class, etc. But we don't need to be forcing the whole class to spend double digit hours in the lab when they also need to be learning tons of other stuff that has more relevance and more impact on their grades.

 

[bushidosurvives]

@slowthai anki is not proven with anything in medical school. it is associated with increased retention. however, a time based analysis measuring productivity with time investment on the underlying task has not been performed, so i would check your verbiage there. i have no issue with anki, flashcards, book reading, basket weaving, whatever. i have an issue when a visual and tactile modality aka gross anatomy lab is completely nixed vs becoming optional. especially when our national population is >300 million and there are cadavers to go around.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@slowthai anki is not proven with anything in medical school. it is associated with increased retention. however, a time based analysis measuring productivity with time investment on the underlying task has not been performed, so i would check your verbiage there. i have no issue with anki, flashcards, book reading, basket weaving, whatever. i have an issue when a visual and tactile modality aka gross anatomy lab is completely nixed vs becoming optional. especially when our national population is >300 million and there are cadavers to go around.

There are multiple studies demonstrating strong correlations between Anki and better exam scores in medical school and in specialty in-service and board exams. Spaced repetition is literally how we learn, and Anki has been validated multiple times as an effective vehicle for that.

 

[bushidosurvives]

There are multiple studies demonstrating strong correlations between Anki and better exam scores in medical school and in specialty in-service and board exams. Spaced repetition is literally how we learn, and Anki has been validated multiple times as an effective vehicle for that.

There is a difference between "proving" something and associating/correlating it with increased performance. I can tell you that I got at least 20-30 pimp questions right on my surgical rotation which allowed me to do more in the OR from that gross anatomy course I took. It might be the way that I'm wired but shoot it worked for me and quite a few of my surgically inclined friends. In terms of inefficiency, I can also tell you that I have performed very well relative to my peers while producing original research and running a business. I have quite a few friends who are in a similar position and are now MS3s-MS4s. My point in making that statement is to demonstrate that individuals respond to stimuli in a different fashion. You can look at your prosection, slowthai can hit his keyboard spacebar, and someone else can read every word of netter. However, removing dissection completely from an anatomy course is ludicrous. In that regard, we are in agreement that it should in fact be optional much like classroom lectures. Of course, there is a lot of medicine in surgery. It doesn't change the fact that the operator still needs to perform a technical skill to the highest level otherwise they will have to deal with their poor outcomes.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There is a difference between "proving" something and associating/correlating it with increased performance.

We don't "prove" anything in medicine. This isn't math. Your argument is just an attack on word choice instead of the actual substance. If you'd like to provide evidence that anki doesn't work, please do. But there is a ton of evidence that it does.

I can tell you that I got at least 20-30 pimp questions right on my surgical rotation which allowed me to do more in the OR from that gross anatomy course I took. It might be the way that I'm wired but shoot it worked for me and quite a few of my surgically inclined friends. In terms of inefficiency, I can also tell you that I have performed very well relative to my peers. I have quite a few friends who are in a similar position and are now MS3s-MS4s. My point in making that statement is to demonstrate that individuals respond to stimuli in a different fashion. You can look at your prosection, slowthai can hit his keyboard spacebar, and someone else can read every word of netter. However, removing dissection completely from an anatomy course is ludicrous. In that regard, we are in agreement that it should in fact be optional much like classroom lectures. Of course, there is a lot of medicine in surgery. It doesn't change the fact that the operator still needs to perform a technical skill to the highest level otherwise they will have to deal with their poor outcomes.

I haven't argued that we should completely get rid of the anatomy lab. Did someone make that argument in this thread? I haven't read every post.

 

[slowthai]

@slowthai anki is not proven with anything in medical school. it is associated with increased retention. however, a time based analysis measuring productivity with time investment on the underlying task has not been performed, so i would check your verbiage there. i have no issue with anki, flashcards, book reading, basket weaving, whatever. i have an issue when a visual and tactile modality aka gross anatomy lab is completely nixed vs becoming optional. especially when our national population is >300 million and there are cadavers to go around.

It's totally proven, and I will continue to call it proven. The way I'm using proven is in the common sense, meaning something that has worked for a lot of people.

There's precedent for it being completely nixed, as several schools have done this already, converting to either prosections, virtual, or a mix of both.

 

[bushidosurvives]

We don't "prove" anything in medicine. This isn't math. Your argument is just an attack on word choice instead of the actual substance. If you'd like to provide evidence that anki doesn't work, please do. But there is a ton of evidence that it does.



I haven't argued that we should completely get rid of the anatomy lab. Did someone make that argument in this thread? I haven't read every post.

Medicine is applied STEM. Go back to your original post where you say "But it’s absurd to think any of them will somehow have a poorer medical knowledge because of it."

I can firmly tell you that I know quite a few individuals in my class alone who would have poorer knowledge without dissection in their anatomy course, due to the loss of tactile stimuli gained through interaction with a cadaver. Additionally, I referenced the fact that this practice is used in surgery residencies, fellowships, and by surgical pioneers. In that regard, its not "absurd", its valid, material, and this alternative modality should not be nixed. That is my argument. Furthermore, to make the assumption that you would want it nixed based off of your statement, might have been erroneous. However, it is definitely appropriate considering the fact that you "liked" slow-thai's post where he said he would reaffirm his desire to off himself if he he had to dissect in an anatomy lab. I will end this by saying that a rise in a class average does not mean anything. I would want to see a distribution with a positive skew relative to prior results to prove that there is an actual improvement in the performance of your peers. I would also want to see years of data for comparison to truly be valid otherwise you are just gauging two sample sizes with one cohort producing data in the middle of a pandemic. It is also no secret that class averages continue to get inflated year on year much like usmle 1/2.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Medicine is applied STEM. Go back to your original post where you say "But it’s absurd to think any of them will somehow have a poorer medical knowledge because of it."

What's your point? We do not prove things in medicine or in science. We show results and evidence. Math is not really a hard science, even though it is included in STEM. It is closer to philosophy and logic. We can prove things in mathematics because we use axiomatic principles that cover the bare minimum and use them to build on to make inferential statements about other things. I can write a proof that -a < 0 < a, but you cannot do that in medicine. You can only provide overwhelming evidence that something is true.

But this is off topic. Generally when someone says that something is proven, they mean there is overwhelming evidence that it is true. In the case of Anki, that is a true statement.

I can firmly tell you that I know quite a few individuals in my class alone who would have poorer knowledge without dissection in their anatomy course, due to the loss of tactile stimuli gained through interaction with a cadaver. Additionally, I referenced the fact that this practice is used in surgery residencies, fellowships, and by surgical pioneers. In that regard, its not "absurd", its valid, material, and this alternative modality should not be nixed. That is my argument. Furthermore, to make the assumption that you would want it nixed based off of your statement, might have been erroneous. However, it is definitely appropriate considering the fact that you "liked" slow-thai's post where he said he would reaffirm his desire to off himself if he he had to dissect in an anatomy lab. I will end this by saying that a rise in a class average does not mean anything. I would want to see a distribution with a positive skew relative to prior results to prove that there is an actual improvement in the performance of your peers. It is no secret that class averages continue to get inflated year on year much like usmle 1/2.

You are making a lot of straw man arguments here and moving a lot of goal posts.

 

[slowthai]

I can firmly tell you that I know quite a few individuals in my class alone who would have poorer knowledge without dissection in their anatomy course, due to the loss of tactile stimuli gained through interaction with a cadaver. Additionally, I referenced the fact that this practice is used in surgery residencies, fellowships, and by surgical pioneers. In that regard, its not "absurd", its valid, material, and this alternative modality should not be nixed. That is my argument.

It's like saying you need to examine a living heart to understand physiology. It's just not true. Again, the practice you're referring to is completely different from what med students do and has a completely different context and purpose: targeted learning and preparation for the OR.

 

[FalconSlice]

What are we even talking about now??? We get it, a certain poster here loves anatomy lab experience---great for you (although there are several reasons that he/she mentioned here that I categorically disagree with). Some people hate it. Some people see what it is actually like (IMO)... i.e. just another class to learn from. Take what you think is useful with you, and leave everything else behind. It's still a classic "rite-of-passage" experience IMO.

P.S.: Let me just dispel something that slowthai also mentioned: gross anatomy is nothing like real surgery, does not teach any technical skills for the real thing as a med student (other than visual anatomic relationships--although this can be argued), and the tissue is literally a different material than live tissue.

To the OP: YMMV, try it out and see what works best. Sample different methods (Matthew9Thirtyfive already mentioned Anki among other means) and go with what you feel helps you most.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What are we even talking about now??? We get it, a certain poster here loves anatomy lab experience---great for you (although there are several reasons that he/she mentioned here that I categorically disagree with). Some people hate it. Some people see what it is actually like (IMO)... i.e. just another class to learn from. Take what you think is useful with you, and leave everything else behind. It's still a classic "rite-of-passage" experience IMO.

P.S.: Let me just dispel something that slowthai also mentioned: gross anatomy is nothing like real surgery, does not teach any technical skills for the real thing as a med student (other than visual anatomic relationships--although this can be argued), and the tissue is literally a different material than live tissue.

To the OP: YMMV, try it out and see what works best. Sample different methods (Matthew9Thirtyfive already mentioned Anki among other means) and go with what you feel helps you most.

Agreed. There are multiple ways to learn anatomy. It sucks if you're not going to get any lab experience at all, but you can still learn anatomy with different methods, and there are anatomy cadaver decks that will at least get you visual exposure to what it looks like in vivo. There are also websites with guided dissection videos that do the same thing.

 

[FalconSlice]

Agreed. There are multiple ways to learn anatomy. It sucks if you're not going to get any lab experience at all, but you can still learn anatomy with different methods, and there are anatomy cadaver decks that will at least get you visual exposure to what it looks like in vivo. There are also websites with guided dissection videos that do the same thing.

Absolutely. YouTube and Acland are amazing resources. If OP likes books, the Rohen Atlas is great for prosections along w/Netter's and Clinical Anatomy for illustrations/reading. The list goes on and on...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Absolutely. YouTube and Acland are amazing resources. If OP likes books, the Rohen Atlas is great for prosections along w/Netter's and Clinical Anatomy for illustrations/reading. The list goes on and on...

Yes, Acland is exactly what I was thinking of. Couldn't remember the name. Very good resource if you can't get into the lab at all. OP, it basically walks you through a dissection and then you can answer questions based on it.

 

[deleted1005514]

Personally I can’t wait for prosected and/or virtual anatomy this year. It’s going to be so much more efficient.

 

[Skarl]

I'm an M1 at a school which switched to virtual anatomy in response to the pandemic. Despite the majority opinion emerging in this thread that anatomy lab is a time sink and not educationally valuable, I would gladly spend 9 hours a week in lab dissecting versus learning anatomy online through Zoom for nearly the same amount of time. It's a rite of passage that feels almost defining of the first year of medical school, and it sucks that we won't have that experience.

Personally, I'm hoping that in-person anatomy lab returns as soon as the pandemic (hopefully) comes under control, whether through a vaccine coming to market or another means.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm an M1 at a school which switched to virtual anatomy in response to the pandemic. Despite the majority opinion emerging in this thread that anatomy lab is a time sink and not educationally valuable, I would gladly spend 9 hours a week in lab dissecting versus learning anatomy online through Zoom for nearly the same amount of time. It's a rite of passage that feels almost defining of the first year of medical school, and it sucks that we won't have that experience.

Personally, I'm hoping that in-person anatomy lab returns as soon as the pandemic (hopefully) comes under control, whether through a vaccine coming to market or another means.

You say that, but that’s just because you haven’t had to do it.

That said, I do think every med student should get some time in the lab because it really is a rite of passage. So I feel for you. Does your school have a TA program? Maybe you can do a TA elective in fourth year to get that experience. Our school has that and I’m pretty sure a lot do.

 

[Skarl]

You say that, but that’s just because you haven’t had to do it.

That said, I do think every med student should get some time in the lab because it really is a rite of passage. So I feel for you. Does your school have a TA program? Maybe you can do a TA elective in fourth year to get that experience. Our school has that and I’m pretty sure a lot do.

I mean I get it, but the same logic applies for any M2+ who had normal anatomy and didn't have to sit through anatomy labs in Zoom breakout rooms. I just had mine, and there were undoubtedly obstacles to learning in the virtual space.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I mean I get it, but the same logic applies for any M2+ who had normal anatomy and didn't have to sit through anatomy labs in Zoom breakout rooms. I just had mine, and there were undoubtedly obstacles to learning in the virtual space.

Yeah I had to do all 3 of the options I was talking about. Full dissecting experience, just going in to look at/handle prosections, and learning entirely by virtual. If I had to choose one for the whole time, I would pick the second one.

 

[Cornfed101]

Yeah I had to do all 3 of the options I was talking about. Full dissecting experience, just going in to look at/handle prosections, and learning entirely by virtual. If I had to choose one for the whole time, I would pick the second one.

that’s a good point. I would prefer having 1 lab period doing the dissection just for the experience, but after that looking at and handling prosected cadavers would be best... especially in the damn upper limb. Man that is a bowl of spaghetti on the freaking potato phone that our anatomy faculty is using. Like seriously, do you have to use a flip phone to film it and take pictures?

what innervates this structure?