VSAS should be available starting early 2012

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DocEspana

DocEspana

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I recently e-mailed VSAS about its availability for osteopathic students. Here is the transcript.

"To whomever it may concern,

I have read in a few different sources that in March and April of this year VSAS began work to integrate osteopathic students into VSAS "by 2012". I was just curious if this was still the case and if there is an estimated/projected date that VSAS will open to osteopathic students? New information on the matter since late April has been hard to find.

Thank you,
Señor España"

"Hi España,

Thank you for emailing! The information you have is accurate as we are currently working to include osteopathic students for the 2012-2013 academic year – which would mean access to VSAS in early 2012. With that timeframe as our goal, we are discussing details of this expansion with the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) and updating our software.

Once some of these details are finalized we will send information to all AACOM member schools about VSAS, about using the service in 2012, and a timeline for implementation.

Thank you for emailing and please let me know if you have any additional questions!
Melissa


Melissa Donner
Director, VSAS"
 
For those who want a sparknotes of this all, basically we get the same application md school get. stre.its streamlined, it simple it's 1 application for all your rotations. It's sort of a big deal to get it officially opened for do schools and I was worried to have seen no updates on this over here til now.
 
Did you really sign the email as Senor Espana? Total badass, homes...
 
Does it mean that DO students will be able to do rotations at most MD schools? Or that's not going to happen?
 
That has always happened. We just had to fill out obnoxious paperwork for each specific hospital when md students filled out one common app for any rotation. Now we too can be lazy one-app-for-all applicants.
 
A quick update on the VSAS. Although VSAS is going to allow osteopathic medical students to utilize VSAS, I want you to be aware as the wording stands they are going to allow schools to "opt-in" to "allow" DO students to apply, but nobody is being obligated to opt-in or defaulted to allow DO students to opt-in.

Mr. Crosby the Executive Director of the AOA recently wrote a letter to AACOM addressing this concern and I suspect AACOM, AOA, and AMA are continuing to work out the fine details. We aren't quite there yet.

We are getting there though. Voice your opinions/concerns to your Student Government Association President.

http://cosgp.aacom.org for the full list of your presidents.
 
majatoi said:
A quick update on the VSAS. Although VSAS is going to allow osteopathic medical students to utilize VSAS, I want you to be aware as the wording stands they are going to allow schools to "opt-in" to "allow" DO students to apply, but nobody is being obligated to opt-in or defaulted to allow DO students to opt-in.

Mr. Crosby the Executive Director of the AOA recently wrote a letter to AACOM addressing this concern and I suspect AACOM, AOA, and AMA are continuing to work out the fine details. We aren't quite there yet.

We are getting there though. Voice your opinions/concerns to your Student Government Association President.

http://cosgp.aacom.org for the full list of your presidents.
Click to expand...

I had heard something of the opposite. Not that programs have the ability to opt in/out on DO students, but that the DO schools have an option to opt in/out on entering VSAS at all (for whatever reason there are AAMC schools that opt out of VSAS for their students). You, obviously, have a more direct connection to the AOA than I, so I do trust your comment.... I just have to ask "are you sure its not the thing I heard" as its similar phrasing but drastically different results. Just to make sure before i modify my "mental fact sheet" on the matter.
 
I wish this were the case, I have seen official correspondence between our organizations. We are working to resolve the matter. It takes time and they have generally been receptive of comments. I will keep you posted as I hear additional news. Unfortunately, the most recent ACGME actions are taking the majority of our attention due to it's deadline for commentary being November 23rd.
 
majatoi said:
A quick update on the VSAS. Although VSAS is going to allow osteopathic medical students to utilize VSAS, I want you to be aware as the wording stands they are going to allow schools to "opt-in" to "allow" DO students to apply, but nobody is being obligated to opt-in or defaulted to allow DO students to opt-in.
Click to expand...

Has anybody heard any updates on the progress of this? When you search electives in VSAS, most of the MD schools rotations are listed as being only open to MD students, not DO. For example, the two MD schools in my area that participate in VSAS (UCSF and UC Davis) both don't look like they accept applications from DO students. UC Davis says on their website they only accept applications through VSAS. Does this effectively mean we can't do away rotations at these places?
 
See i havent run into this issue. The schools in the NYC area (one excepted) all let DOs rotate through.

From what I've seen, there are only a chunk (idk. maybe 8-10%) of places that dont let DOs rotate across all of VSAS. But thats just quickly eyeballing the entire list of everyplace that offers internal medicine. Which should be nearly all sites, if i were to guess.
 
Wolverines83 said:
Off topic(ish)...which school doesn't take DO's? I'm surprised theirs not more.
Click to expand...

Its actually North Shore LIJ that wont let DOs use VSAS for their programs, which happens to control a few hospitals in the 5 boroughs too, not just Long Island.

But they match DOs to their residencies. (Unlike, say, NYU which lets DOs rotate, but explicitly says certain programs will not match any. IDK which is more puzzling).
 
DocEspana said:
Its actually North Shore LIJ that wont let DOs use VSAS for their programs, which happens to control a few hospitals in the 5 boroughs too, not just Long Island.

But they match DOs to their residencies. (Unlike, say, NYU which lets DOs rotate, but explicitly says certain programs will not match any. IDK which is more puzzling).
Click to expand...

It shows up on my VSAS page that they take DO's. In fact I had submitted a paper app to them a few months ago and they told me that now that COCA schools are on VSAS they want us to apply through that.
 
Very few don't take DO's for rotations.

Among them are: Creighton, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Davis, U Maryland, U Miami, U Vermont, U Virginia, Wash U and Yale.

These are among the vast minority..there are a lot of other schools on there.

Pretty generous if you ask me, considering no Osteopathic only programs allow MD students to obtain residency positions or much less participate in this service.
 
SmokD said:
It shows up on my VSAS page that they take DO's. In fact I had submitted a paper app to them a few months ago and they told me that now that COCA schools are on VSAS they want us to apply through that.
Click to expand...

Majority of their programs don't (for example, vanilla internal med does, but IM specialties dont) at least as of now. But that could very well be cjanged as of July or so. Westchester medical, for example has a "allows DOs" logo on their rotations, but actually applying shows that they don't actually let DOs use VSAS until next school year. The transition has been patxhwork. I just know LIJs insistance on no DOs (vsas or otherwise) in anything but vanilla cores has been a frequently complained about situation. Hopefully vsas did change that.... Tgough im seeing the same barring of DOs in most fields with a casual look roght now.
 
Dissected said:
Very few don't take DO's for rotations.

Among them are: Creighton, Dartmouth, Tufts, UC Davis, U Maryland, U Miami, U Vermont, U Virginia, Wash U and Yale.

These are among the vast minority..there are a lot of other schools on there.

Pretty generous if you ask me, considering no Osteopathic only programs allow MD students to obtain residency positions or much less participate in this service.
Click to expand...

Thread...being...hijacked...but need information....
Dartmouth and Vermont both take DOs for residency (Dartmouth in theory, and Vermont has several DOs on their resident website)...but they don't let DOs rotate through? Or have they maybe just not realized the VSAS change?
 
They know exactly what they're doing. The people making decisions about VSAS eligibility are in each school's clinical education department, separate from the program directors who decide on residency applications. There's the rub.

Also realize that programs are free to charge tuition for a rotation. MUSC, for example, will charge DO students $3035.00 for a rotation, if you are accepted, according to an email from my clin ed department. For MD students who want to do a rotation there, there's no charge. IMG's are locked out (can't even apply).
 
Wolverines83 said:
Thread...being...hijacked...but need information....
Dartmouth and Vermont both take DOs for residency (Dartmouth in theory, and Vermont has several DOs on their resident website)...but they don't let DOs rotate through? Or have they maybe just not realized the VSAS change?
Click to expand...

That's exactly what I was thinking about UC Davis. They took two DOs from my school two years ago into the anesthesiology residency, but they won't let DOs rotate in anesthesia clerkships. Kinda sucks if it is your first choice for residency and you really want to audition there but can't. Doesn't make sense to lock out a DO student from rotations who really wants to go there but have no qualms about accepting them into the same specialty's residency program, which is a much bigger prize. I guess I shouldn't complain... I'm just glad they even accept DOs into the residency program.
 
To be fair, I'm at a education research conference and there is solid study evidence to show that while audition rotations (anecdotally) are vital for the AOA, they actually do not effect your odds of matching at an acgme spot at all. Statistically speaking at least.

Logic sometimes leads you into beliefs without grounding in facts.

But I'm still doing them. Haha.
 
a runner said:
That's exactly what I was thinking about UC Davis. They took two DOs from my school two years ago into the anesthesiology residency, but they won't let DOs rotate in anesthesia clerkships. Kinda sucks if it is your first choice for residency and you really want to audition there but can't. Doesn't make sense to lock out a DO student from rotations who really wants to go there but have no qualms about accepting them into the same specialty's residency program, which is a much bigger prize. I guess I shouldn't complain... I'm just glad they even accept DOs into the residency program.
Click to expand...

same thing happened to me when i called NY Methodist about scheduling an elective in EM. they told me to call the number for Cornell, since that's the school they're affiliated with (cornell handles all their paperwork/official elective registration). when i tell them i'm from Touro, they were like "oh we don't take Touro students."

despite the fact that NY Methodist's EM program director is a DO, and they regularly take 2-3 DOs for every intern class. wtf!
 
coffeeeandtea said:
same thing happened to me when i called NY Methodist about scheduling an elective in EM. they told me to call the number for Cornell, since that's the school they're affiliated with (cornell handles all their paperwork/official elective registration). when i tell them i'm from Touro, they were like "oh we don't take Touro students."

despite the fact that NY Methodist's EM program director is a DO, and they regularly take 2-3 DOs for every intern class. wtf!
Click to expand...

lol, well better that they don't accept us for rotations than for residency, right? That's just one less away rotation, less gas money and less time away from my wife!
 
Altruist said:
They know exactly what they're doing. The people making decisions about VSAS eligibility are in each school's clinical education department, separate from the program directors who decide on residency applications. There's the rub.

Also realize that programs are free to charge tuition for a rotation. MUSC, for example, will charge DO students $3035.00 for a rotation, if you are accepted, according to an email from my clin ed department. For MD students who want to do a rotation there, there's no charge. IMG's are locked out (can't even apply).
Click to expand...


Personal experience with this one. So, I see MUSC actually raised it from $2800 for a 4-week rotation. But in the end, they are free to do what they want. As I understand it, the COMs aren't giving your M4 away sites any money to train you. Sucks, but that's life.
 
Last edited:
LSU Alex said:
Personal experience with this one. So, I see MUSC actually raised it from $2800 for a 4-week rotation. But in the end, they are free to do what they want. As I understood it, the COMs aren't giving your M4 away sites any money to train you. Sucks, but that's life.
Click to expand...

Is it common to charge DO students for electives in ACGME rotation sites?
 
I promised myself not to post again but I hope this helps soon to be OMS-IVs...

Generally speaking, with the VSAS thing you all should have a much easier time than we did and in all honesty I had zero problems scheduling my 4th year rotations (almost all at top 20 allo hospitals) even before VSAS....

a runner said:
Has anybody heard any updates on the progress of this? When you search electives in VSAS, most of the MD schools rotations are listed as being only open to MD students, not DO. For example, the two MD schools in my area that participate in VSAS (UCSF and UC Davis) both don't look like they accept applications from DO students. UC Davis says on their website they only accept applications through VSAS. Does this effectively mean we can't do away rotations at these places?
Click to expand...

UCSF takes DOs for rotations

http://medschool.ucsf.edu/visitingstudents/

This should be a great example of why you have to check multiple websites/sources for your information (applies to rotations and residency positions).


DocEspana said:
Its actually North Shore LIJ that wont let DOs use VSAS for their programs, which happens to control a few hospitals in the 5 boroughs too, not just Long Island.

But they match DOs to their residencies. (Unlike, say, NYU which lets DOs rotate, but explicitly says certain programs will not match any. IDK which is more puzzling).
Click to expand...

I don't know about their VSAS status, but LIJ takes DOs for rotations and residencies.

Wolverines83 said:
Thread...being...hijacked...but need information....
Dartmouth and Vermont both take DOs for residency (Dartmouth in theory, and Vermont has several DOs on their resident website)...but they don't let DOs rotate through? Or have they maybe just not realized the VSAS change?
Click to expand...

Dartmouth takes DOs for residency (at least 3 from my class matched there this year)! Up to this year I knew they took DOs for rotations as well but that may have changed 😕

UVM has its head up its a** and that's why some of their programs (e.g. IM) don't fill all the time. They had to scramble at least 2 times in the past 5 years for IM (categorical). When you talk to their people they think of themselves to be on par with MGH but as we all know they are not so don't be too upset about UVM and they take DOs for residency all the time... DISCLAIMER: I'm not sure if they actually scrambled or if it was funny math but they were on the scramble list at least twice in the past 5 years for IM.

Altruist said:
They know exactly what they're doing. The people making decisions about VSAS eligibility are in each school's clinical education department, separate from the program directors who decide on residency applications. There's the rub.

Also realize that programs are free to charge tuition for a rotation. MUSC, for example, will charge DO students $3035.00 for a rotation, if you are accepted, according to an email from my clin ed department. For MD students who want to do a rotation there, there's no charge. IMG's are locked out (can't even apply).
Click to expand...

Simple Rule: If any school charges you more than a nominal application fee (MAX: few hundreds) or has any special rules that discriminate against DOs do not do a rotation there.... IMHO, you are plainly stupid to pay tuition to rotate at a place when there are top 20 schools that will take you for free.

See below for match prospects.

DocEspana said:
To be fair, I'm at a education research conference and there is solid study evidence to show that while audition rotations (anecdotally) are vital for the AOA, they actually do not effect your odds of matching at an acgme spot at all. Statistically speaking at least.

Logic sometimes leads you into beliefs without grounding in facts.

But I'm still doing them. Haha.
Click to expand...

👍

Unless you are interested in a highly competitive specialty (ACGME Ophtho), audition rotations make ZERO difference for ACGME spots. If you want to rotate somewhere do it but don't do it to increase your odds, because it doesn't.

coffeeeandtea said:
same thing happened to me when i called NY Methodist about scheduling an elective in EM. they told me to call the number for Cornell, since that's the school they're affiliated with (cornell handles all their paperwork/official elective registration). when i tell them i'm from Touro, they were like "oh we don't take Touro students."

despite the fact that NY Methodist's EM program director is a DO, and they regularly take 2-3 DOs for every intern class. wtf!
Click to expand...

Cornell takes DOs for rotation and residency (I don't know if they have a specific policy about Touro)
 
Last edited:
Yea I was commenting on the quirks of their VSAS application. No DOs through VSAS except in base level stuff (IM/EM, the like) and no paper application anymore to apply for the specialties.

but people do match there. So its a bit of a "two people making two different standards" situation with a rotation-vs-residency discord.
 
bala565 said:
Dartmouth takes DOs for residency (at least 3 from my class matched there this year)! Up to this year I knew they took DOs for rotations as well but that may have changed 😕

UVM has its head up its a** and that's why some of their programs (e.g. IM) don't fill all the time. They had to scramble at least 2 times in the past 5 years for IM (categorical). When you talk to their people they think of themselves to be on par with MGH but as we all know they are not so don't be too upset about UVM and they take DOs for residency all the time... DISCLAIMER: I'm not sure if they actually scrambled or if it was funny math but they were on the scramble list at least twice in the past 5 years for IM.
Click to expand...

Oh I'm not sure if Dartmouth has said no to rotations, I was asking another poster if that was, in fact, true. So my post was a question, not an answer.

With regard to UVM, what do you mean about head up ass, etc? I've had a rough time finding info out about it aside from what I mentioned in my post. I love that part of the country and would love (as of right now) to at least have the option of doing residency up there. I'm a ways off from that but still...any info about any of the programs (even if anecdotal) would be great.
 
lacrosse87 said:
http://www.hss.edu/medical-students.asp

"Hospital for Special Surgery does not offer clinical electives to students enrolled in osteopathic programs."

🙁

Oh well
Click to expand...

That sucks, but there seems to be a plethora of other places to do electives in Manhattan and the other burroughs. Do you know of any way to find a list of places that offer rotations? I found this: http://services.aamc.org/memberlist...home.search&search_type=TH&state_criteria=ALL which I'm guessing is a good place to start.
 
UCSF accepts DO students. I had to use VSAS for an elective and DOs weren't represented in the eligible options (only MD students) for the elective but as soon as I contacted them, they fixed it for me.

It'd be a good idea to double check with the programs if you really want to go there.
 
polkadoctor said:
UCSF accepts DO students. I had to use VSAS for an elective and DOs weren't represented in the eligible options (only MD students) for the elective but as soon as I contacted them, they fixed it for me.

It'd be a good idea to double check with the programs if you really want to go there.
Click to expand...

Thanks, that is very useful information! Based on the information I'm getting here and in other threads, it seems that it doesn't matter so much where you do away allo rotations (ie. auditions aren't going to help), just that you do them and get a good letter of recommendation from doing an away allo rotation. I'd just as well go to UCSF for rotations as UC Davis anyways since it's a little closer. And perhaps it's worth contacting any of the other programs (like UC Davis) that don't accept DOs through VSAS to see if it's a mistake when it gets to that time.
 
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