Waiving the right to see LOR.

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hammersmith

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How much additional weightage (if any) my LOR will carry, if I waive my rights to see it. If it doesn't carry any weightage, I risk the possibility of loosing a LOR If I don't get matched this year (although unlikely). Appreciate your thoughts here.

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Always waive. If you don't trust your letter writer enough to waive you shouldn't be asking them. And if you need it again I'm sure the person has saved a copy and can send it again.
 
Can you ask the letter writer for a copy, so you can include it with your CV in the future? Or do program directors only take notice of letters mailed separately?
 
letters are scanned at your med school into the electronic residency application system. The PDs will access them via that system.
 
Thanks. I'm in a slightly different situation though, as I'm applying for a fellowship which doesn't have an electronic application service. Do program directors still put as much value in letters of reference included with the candidates CV

(I can't see why they wouldn't still place value on them, because they can still talk to the person who wrote it & ask for more details)

what do people think?
 
hammersmith said:
How much additional weightage (if any) my LOR will carry, if I waive my rights to see it. If it doesn't carry any weightage, I risk the possibility of loosing a LOR If I don't get matched this year (although unlikely). Appreciate your thoughts here.

I totally debated this myself. We are at a point in our careers where we absolutely need to see those letters, but it looks bad if we do.

I spoke to the dean's secretary at my school, and she told me that she would never let us put a bad letter in our applications, and that we can still see them even if we waive.

I would check with your school. If I didn't get to see my letters, I wouldn't waive my right, because I know people still can screw you if they didn't like you. I haven't seen it in medicine, but I've seen it in other arenas, with people who act as if they like the person asking for the letter and still write a bad one. I've also personally, had a letter written about me, for med school (I looked through the envelope over a strong lightbulb) that was not perfect. it was mostly positive, but some not nice things were said, and the letter writer never gave any indication of not being able to write me a good letter. (Nor did she ever state her problems with me in person.)

Maybe attendings have a better code of ethics, who knows? But do you want to chance your next 3 years of employment on this?
 
kristing said:
I've also personally, had a letter written about me, for med school (I looked through the envelope over a strong lightbulb) that was not perfect. it was mostly positive, but some not nice things were said, and the letter writer never gave any indication of not being able to write me a good letter. (Nor did she ever state her problems with me in person.)

Wow, that's a pretty scary story. Good thing you checked through the envelope! So far I've never heard of a letter writer "screwing" a student like that for residency apps though. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but if it does it must be really rare.

I waived my right to see all of my letters. My letter writers are nice people, and I'm sure none of them would say any bad stuff. The only reason I wouldn't waive my right to see the letters is if I didn't trust my writers or I had tons and tons of options for letter writers so that I could pick and choose the best letters to send out of a bunch.
 
Our school's secretary was able to tell us which letters were the best and we decided together which ones to include (she never actually read the letters or told me exactly what they said.) Also, I asked for about 7 letters so that I could include different ones for different programs (research, community, etc.) I was able to narrow down which letters to include for which program, based on her feedback. Some schools employ letter-readers for this specific purpose - you allow them to read your letters and tell you what they say.

I would echo what above posters said about not asking anyone you don't think would write you a good letter. Some will be more positive than others, obviously. At one interview, I was handed all my letters so I could see what was said about me (I guess they figured it didn't matter at that point!) Some were exceptional, some were nice, and some were really generic - but none were awful. That was okay with me. I waived my right to see my LORs because I was always told it makes you look suspicious or untrusting if you don't. I am not sure how much difference it made in the end.

By the way, our program director is known for trying to heavily recruit our grads to stay in the area. I have heard rumors that this person writes less-than-stellar LORs so that the applicant is less likely to match elsewhere and more likely to end up staying. It's hard to imagine people being this malicious, but again, just be aware of whom you ask.

Good luck.
 
kristing said:
I've also personally, had a letter written about me, for med school (I looked through the envelope over a strong lightbulb) that was not perfect. it was mostly positive, but some not nice things were said, and the letter writer never gave any indication of not being able to write me a good letter. (Nor did she ever state her problems with me in person.)
I've heard of two similar situations.

One guy thought he clicked well with a doc. He asked for an LOR, waived his right to see it, and a few days before having it sent it out his med school told him that he might not want that letter sent because of a few negatives written he was unaware of.

That same guy during his 3rd year thought he was doomed for a rotation because the attending would berate and nit pick the residents and esp. the students. Initially, he didn't consider asking for a recommendation from the guy, but apparently he honors-ed the course and received glowing remarks... :confused:
 
When using ERAS, one can decide not to waive the right to see the letters? Can you do it on a letter-by-letter basis, or is there one master waiver?

The only letter I would be concerned about would be my deans letter, I am a good student, but the dean and I have had some serious differences of opinion regarding a number of subjects.
 
as I understand it, the dean's letter is not a recommendation, rather a narrative summary of ms3. you are supposed to get a copy of the dean's letter, mainly to check for factual errors.
 
doc05 said:
as I understand it, the dean's letter is not a recommendation, rather a narrative summary of ms3. you are supposed to get a copy of the dean's letter, mainly to check for factual errors.

Makes sense, but I wouldn't put it past the dean at my school to try and screw me over. At most schools you are allowed to see the deans letter before it is sent?
 
InfiniteUni said:
Makes sense, but I wouldn't put it past the dean at my school to try and screw me over. At most schools you are allowed to see the deans letter before it is sent?

Definitely at mine. I thought all schools have your review your Dean's Letter before it's submitted.
 
I'm in a different situation applying for overseas. Most people I'm askign will want to show me the ltter and have me deal with it from there, is this likely to be a problem?
 
I hate this issue because I've debated it over and over.

Conventional wisdom is: you waive. But it's MY right. Why should I be compelled to give it up?

You could be the top performer and your attending can promise you a great letter but some attendings just aren't as eloquent as others in expressing what they have observed. If you have only 3-4 letters, then fine, waive them. But if you've done well and have asked say 5-6, wouldn't you want to put your best foot forward given that you performed well for all those faculty members anyways?

If you have 5-6 potentially good letters, how do you pick the 3-4 that are the best?

And yes, I don't trust my faculty. They have no stake in my career, and for the many who have seen students come and go, I wouldn't be surprised if my letters are lackluster, not because I didn't work hard or didn't stand out, but because writing letters is just one of those pain in the #ss things they need to do as part of their jobs, and faculty much like students put things off to the very end and crank something out just to get it done with.

So long as the letter is truthful, insightful and applicable, I don't care what they say. They can write into it all my flaws, but if they're true, they're true. But when they write my strengths, they also better be true and not some generic, cliche, bullcrap they read out of someone else's letter.

I see no harm in seeing my letters. The whole thing about waiving and not waiving is a bunch of Jedi mind tricks.
 
can any of you really imagine a program director, or even a dept. secretary, looking at applications and rejecting them based on whether you waived your right to see the LOR? i can't...

we can argue all day about the nuances of who it is better for and why. but, the reality is that PD's will prefer the letter to be unread, and we would like to see them. will this make a practical difference in getting an interview or a residency? i cannot for the life of me imagine how...

nobody is going to ignore a great letter because you were allowed to see it. i doubt anybody will refuse to interview people that do not waive the right...but, somebody may ignore an application based on a poor letter that you did not see.
 
neilc said:
can any of you really imagine a program director, or even a dept. secretary, looking at applications and rejecting them based on whether you waived your right to see the LOR? i can't...

we can argue all day about the nuances of who it is better for and why. but, the reality is that PD's will prefer the letter to be unread, and we would like to see them. will this make a practical difference in getting an interview or a residency? i cannot for the life of me imagine how...

nobody is going to ignore a great letter because you were allowed to see it. i doubt anybody will refuse to interview people that do not waive the right...but, somebody may ignore an application based on a poor letter that you did not see.

Good point! :thumbup:
 
neilc said:
can any of you really imagine a program director, or even a dept. secretary, looking at applications and rejecting them based on whether you waived your right to see the LOR? i can't...

I haven't heard any stories of outright rejections, but I have been told by two advisors that there are indeed programs out there which consider not waiving right-to-see as a red flag.
 
Scooby Moo said:
I haven't heard any stories of outright rejections, but I have been told by two advisors that there are indeed programs out there which consider not waiving right-to-see as a red flag.

i agree that this is possible...so, lets do a cost-benefit analysisn

so, if you waive the right to see...
cost: some programs may see it as a red flag
benefit: you are assured that some less than stellar letter is not being sent to all of your favorite programs

if you do not waive the right to see
benefit: programs will be happy, and not see it as a red flag
cost: potentially loosing ALL/MANY of your interviews due to a weak letter.

in short, you can be way to screwed by not seeing your letters to offset the little gain you may realize by waiving. another factor is for us internationals...the impracticality of getting letter writers to send everything direct to ECFMG and doing it correctly in a timely manner even gives us a valid reason to gather these letters ourselves...you can easily defend it with a PD if discussed. simply say "as a physician, i want to go to battle for my patient with the best possible tools, procedures, skills and drugs that are available. i apply that thinking to everything i do, therefore, i looked at all my options in recommendations, and found those most appropriate to the task at hand." or some other such nonsense...you get the point. it is way easier to defend looking at your letters than it would be to explain a bad letter.

just my take on the whole situation. i would love to waive, but i am just not willing to risk it for that little gain...

if nobody waives that right (it is a right, so why give it up so easy??) than program directors would not even consider it! so, lets start the new wave....look at your letters, everybody!!! see what those bastards are saying about us! :laugh: :cool: :D ;)
 
neilc said:
i agree that this is possible...so, lets do a cost-benefit analysisn

so, if you waive the right to see...
cost: some programs may see it as a red flag
benefit: you are assured that some less than stellar letter is not being sent to all of your favorite programs

if you do not waive the right to see
benefit: programs will be happy, and not see it as a red flag
cost: potentially loosing ALL/MANY of your interviews due to a weak letter.

in short, you can be way to screwed by not seeing your letters to offset the little gain you may realize by waiving. another factor is for us internationals...the impracticality of getting letter writers to send everything direct to ECFMG and doing it correctly in a timely manner even gives us a valid reason to gather these letters ourselves...you can easily defend it with a PD if discussed. simply say "as a physician, i want to go to battle for my patient with the best possible tools, procedures, skills and drugs that are available. i apply that thinking to everything i do, therefore, i looked at all my options in recommendations, and found those most appropriate to the task at hand." or some other such nonsense...you get the point. it is way easier to defend looking at your letters than it would be to explain a bad letter.

just my take on the whole situation. i would love to waive, but i am just not willing to risk it for that little gain...

if nobody waives that right (it is a right, so why give it up so easy??) than program directors would not even consider it! so, lets start the new wave....look at your letters, everybody!!! see what those bastards are saying about us! :laugh: :cool: :D ;)

Sounds reasoning, in my opinion :thumbup:
 
My signature move has been to just leave the two boxes blank and let the letter writer decide. So far it is 2/2 open, probably because they checked neither box, but haven't read them yet but we'll see. The main issue the way I see it with closed letters is that unless you get a copy from the letter writer, you really don't know. Even if you are positive the writer thinks you are the shiznit, they may be a poor writer. I've seen it in the past.

Bottom line is that at this level, most programs that I want to be a part of aren't going to make a huge issue out of over open vs. closed.
 
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