Walmart family opening Whole Health School of Medicine

[DrStephenStrange]

They could have opened one in Idaho, Montana, or Wyoming. You know, states that don't have medical schools.

Idaho does have one. And I think COCA and AOA have plans for Montana and Wyoming as well, so don't worry they'll be there soon enough lol. If everything doesn't collapse by then.

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

Actually, over the past 10-20 years, DO and MD schools have opened at pretty much the same clip. Seton Hall, Geisinger, CalHS (or is it CalUMed?), Kaiser, UIC, FIU, UCF, FAU, Nova, TCU/UNT, the odious CNU, Oakland Beaumont, CMU all come to mind for MD

I'll need data on that score.

 

[Goro]

I'll need data on that score.

List of medical schools in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually, counting only schools that first matriculated students in 2011, the score is:
MD: 27
DO: 22

 

[Goro]

I'm also amazed that Arkansas, a state with 3 million people, could have five med schools (3 MD and two DO) but MA, which has 2x the population and NC, with 2.5x, each have only four!

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

Well, University of Washington - Seattle has that medical student program that allies with neighboring states and rotates their students who are interested in serving more rural areas/get more experiences in those areas. So I could definitely see it heading that direction for states like Montana and Wyoming. Interesting.

As for the topic of this thread, while it may seem noble to some people here, I still agree that it’s misguided. Maybe what Alice Walton could’ve done was open a hospital rather than a school of medicine in Arkansas to create more jobs?

It feels like people from private to government are all trying to fix the “shortage of doctors” issue at the same time, but aren’t really taking into account what they could do to fix HC.

 

[armytrainingsir]

Until one has really lived and worked in poor urban and rural areas, it’s hard to articulate how comparatively and prohibitively expensive fruits and vegetables can be when compared to processed foods as well as how hard they are to find in stores.

Hmmm, my family grew up poor in the Mississippi Delta, which is the very definition of rural poor, and they just grew their vegetables and canned /froze them.
Spent many evenings shucking corn.

Urban areas certainly don’t seem to be so cash strapped that iPhones,nails, and liquor are unobtainable. I wonder why the vegetable stands seem to not enjoy the same success?

 

[The Med-Peds Dude]

Should be well funded - let's see if they run it on the cheap

 

[DKM1K3]

They're opening a do school? Cuz the phraseology sure sounds awfully familiar.

Nope. MD schools (familiar, but misleading phraseology)

Alice Walton’s Whole Health Institute will build a new medical school in Bentonville - Talk Business & Politics

Walmart Inc. heiress and philanthropist Alice Walton announced Thursday (March 4) plans to build a new medical school in Bentonville. Whole Health School of Medicine and Health Sciences will break...

talkbusiness.net

 

[GreenDuck12]

Do they? I thought a disproportionate amount of their class got prelim years.

I believe you are correct. There’s a huge risk with CNU - no federal loans, no IBR/PSLF options, etc.

Hmmm, my family grew up poor in the Mississippi Delta, which is the very definition of rural poor, and they just grew their vegetables and canned /froze them.
Spent many evenings shucking corn.

Urban areas certainly don’t seem to be so cash strapped that iPhones,nails, and liquor are unobtainable. I wonder why the vegetable stands seem to not enjoy the same success?

Ahh, yes. The old “they have iPhones so they aren’t that poor shtick.” It’s pretty well established in the literature that food deserts exist in lower income urban areas, which tend to be more heavily minority communities, as opposed to more affluent urban and suburban areas. Also super difficult to grow fruits and vegetables in a 1br apartment. Additionally, processed foods tend to benefit from federal subsidies much more than the production of fruits and vegetables - there’s a reason why processed foods tend to be significantly cheaper per calorie than others - corn and soybean subsidies whose derivatives are heavily used in processed foods, etc. Thank you for the reply and I would encourage you to do some reading into the subject!

 

[doomer_md]

But does their tuition have a price match guarantee?

 

[selah778]

This should definitely be a DO school so we can stick with the dumbest possible timeline of events over in DO world lol

Wow! That's rude. How ridiculous to demean and degrade a person who chose the DO route. We need respect for both MDs and DOs.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Why the DO hate? Physician = Physician. These are your colleagues:

Let me guess another Pre-Med or an OMS-0. No one is hating on DO students or graduates dude. But rather the DO schools and organizations like AOA or COCA. There's a difference.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why the DO hate? Physician = Physician. These are your colleagues:

There's no hate in acknowledging the weak clinical rotation standards of the COCA

 

[Ho0v-man]

Wow! That's rude. How ridiculous to demean and degrade a person who chose the DO route. We need respect for both MDs and DOs.

Why the DO hate? Physician = Physician. These are your colleagues:

Neopolymath and I are both OMS-IVs about to start residency. To avoid derailment of the thread, I’ll happily discuss in pm the issues surrounding osteopathic education and my experience at a “top” DO school.

But if your plan is to have everyone agree with you because you’re really good at being offended, consider medtwitter.

 

[NITRAS]

Not 100% sure if it’s the same situation between non-profit hospitals and non-profit med schools, but to quote Elisabeth Rosenthal in “An American Sickness”, “Not-for-profit hospitals are now just as profitable as capitalist corporations, but the excess money flowing in isn’t called ‘profit’—it’s ‘operating surplus.’”

i.e. she will probably be making plenty of money off of this operation lol

When my wife worked for one of the three letter societies, she learned something:

A non-profit that doesn’t make a profit, goes out of business.

Profit isn’t bad.

 

[deleted1102296]

Why the DO hate? Physician = Physician. These are your colleagues:

Befriend some third and fourth-year DO students and you'll see why. Once they really get to know you they'll tell you all the ways their schools try to f them over. They'll all become amazing physicians but it will be in spite of their schools, all due to their own hard work.

 

[Neopolymath]

Wow! That's rude. How ridiculous to demean and degrade a person who chose the DO route. We need respect for both MDs and DOs.

Guess what, buddy. I'm a DO. Our organizations are incredibly stupid, redundant, and worthless. One day you will understand.

 

[Lawpy]

Wow! That's rude. How ridiculous to demean and degrade a person who chose the DO route. We need respect for both MDs and DOs.

I still don't see the need to divide physicians. Merge the DO degree into MD and form a unified front against midlevels

There i knocked out 2 SDN hot topics at once

 

[deleted1102296]

I still don't see the need to divide physicians. Merge the DO degree into MD and form a unified front against midlevels

There i knocked out 2 SDN hot topics at once

Are you a medical student? There are so many hurdles that it just wouldn't be possible. MD schools receive a lot of state funding, most DO schools do not. Most are in less desirable locations with a focus on primary care. COMLEX is easier to pass than USMLE and lets many people achieve their dreams of serving their communities whereas they might not have passed USMLE.

So unless you have a way of giving hundreds of millions of dollars to DO schools for research, and 5xing the # of their faculty (on average MD schools have 5-8x more), plus more funding for large scholarships to attract applicants, then it's not happening.

 

[Lawpy]

Are you a medical student? There are so many hurdles that it just wouldn't be possible. MD schools receive a lot of state funding, most DO schools do not. Most are in less desirable locations with a focus on primary care. COMLEX is easier to pass than USMLE and lets many people achieve their dreams of serving their communities whereas they might not have passed USMLE.

So unless you have a way of giving hundreds of millions of dollars to DO schools for research, and 5xing the # of their faculty (on average MD schools have 5-8x more), plus more funding for large scholarships to attract applicants, then it's not happening.

I'm pretty sure a lot of DO schools will be shut down by this merger proposal but i think the transition is going to be gradual but inevitable. The residency merger was the first step. Also i think we need to stop associating DO with primary care because that's an insult to a lot of MD students who are going into primary care and an insult to primary care focused MD schools. The fact that COMLEX is easier to pass doesn't change anything. We need to ensure medical education is standardized and rigorous so USMLE for all is the way to go.

Edit: actually i don't think DO schools will be shut down if we give a transition period of several years to adapt to lcme requirements

 

[deleted1102296]

I'm pretty sure a lot of DO schools will be shut down by this merger proposal but i think the transition is going to be gradual but inevitable. The residency merger was the first step. Also i think we need to stop associating DO with primary care because that's an insult to a lot of MD students who are going into primary care and an insult to primary care focused MD schools. The fact that COMLEX is easier to pass doesn't change anything. We need to ensure medical education is standardized and rigorous so USMLE for all is the way to go.

Edit: actually i don't think DO schools will be shut down if we give a transition period of several years to adapt to lcme requirements

I'm an MD student going into primary care and I don't get offended by these things. Again, if you look at AAMC data 1/3 of MD students graduate debt free due to merit scholarships and/or parents. We don't have data on DO students but almost all DO schools are far more expensive and very few have any scholarships. To bring them up to LCME standards it would take hundreds of millions of dollars. Where are you going to get it from or find/build home hospitals with enough volume?

For many DO students, they're paying $250-350k tuition because it's a means to an end, not a choice. Most, if not all, MD schools are $40-160k tuition with the private ones giving substantial scholarships to make it equal. There's no way you can attract enough strong applicants to the middle of nowhere to pay $400k. The ones going there have no choice due to lower stats or other reasons. If they were all forced to take USMLE (if converted to MD) you would either 1) fail large portions of the class 2) raise GPA/MCAT requirements and exclude people with a genuine interest to give back to their community. Schools like CCOM ($320k+ tuition) are an exception because they're in nicer areas and I've seen applicants pick it over LECOM ($140k tuition).

For example, if LMU or KYCOM turned MD and USMLE was now required, you would have fewer students from applachia attend because they tend to have lower stats (because the schools want to maximize pass rates). The school would be filled with Cali applicants who will fly back home the minute they finish med school/residency, and it would further contribute to physician maldistribution.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm an MD student going into primary care and I don't get offended by these things. Again, if you look at AAMC data 1/3 of MD students graduate debt free due to merit scholarships and/or parents. We don't have data on DO students but almost all DO schools are far more expensive and very few have any scholarships. To bring them up to LCME standards it would take hundreds of millions of dollars. Where are you going to get it from or find/build home hospitals with enough volume?

For many DO students, they're paying $250-350k tuition because it's a means to an end, not a choice. Most, if not all, MD schools are $40-160k tuition with the private ones giving substantial scholarships to make it equal. There's no way you can attract enough strong applicants to the middle of nowhere to pay $400k. The ones going there have no choice.

I think we both recognize the obstacles involved but disagree on the inevitability. A lot of the established DO schools already have the resources needed to meet LCME standards and convert to MD, although it gets tricky for programs that are dual MD and DO (i think MSU). The newer ones are more problematic but i think a transition period of several years will give them the timeline to adjust and find the necessary resources or otherwise be shut down if they can't meet the requirements. The exact details of this really depends on specific schools in question and how to resolve the branch campuses (maybe convert them to regional sites).

OMM can be an elective.

This is the general framework which i know is vague because the actual details are school specific and the actual requirements need to be revisited (although there are a lot of things in common between the LCME and COCA standards currently)

That said i agree having everyone take USMLE would help

 

[Ho0v-man]

I think we both recognize the obstacles involved but disagree on the inevitability. A lot of the established DO schools already have the resources needed to meet LCME standards and convert to MD, although it gets tricky for programs that are dual MD and DO (i think MSU). The newer ones are more problematic but i think a transition period of several years will give them the timeline to adjust and find the necessary resources or otherwise be shut down if they can't meet the requirements. The exact details of this really depends on specific schools in question and how to resolve the branch campuses (maybe convert them to regional sites).

OMM can be an elective.

This is the general framework which i know is vague because the actual details are school specific and the actual requirements need to be revisited (although there are a lot of things in common between the LCME and COCA standards currently)

That said i agree having everyone take USMLE would help

Nah dawg, PCOM and the state schools are the only ones even close to meeting those standards.

 

[TragicalDrFaust]

In any case... It's a Great Value.

made some fan art

 

[Goro]

Are you a medical student? There are so many hurdles that it just wouldn't be possible. MD schools receive a lot of state funding, most DO schools do not. Most are in less desirable locations with a focus on primary care. COMLEX is easier to pass than USMLE and lets many people achieve their dreams of serving their communities whereas they might not have passed USMLE.

So unless you have a way of giving hundreds of millions of dollars to DO schools for research, and 5xing the # of their faculty (on average MD schools have 5-8x more), plus more funding for large scholarships to attract applicants, then it's not happening.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over the electrons.

And for the rest of you, keep the thread on topic or I'll have to ask the mods to lock the thread.

 

[J_Unit87]

Walmart heir Alice Walton last week announced plans to build a new nonprofit medical school.
The Whole Health School of Medicine and Health Sciences is described as a state-of-the-art education and training facility that will be built somewhere in Bentonville. No specific location was revealed.
The plan is to break ground in 2022 and to begin classes in the fall of 2024.
The program is allopathic, meaning graduates will receive a Doctor of Medicine (MD) degree.

Alice Walton plans new nonprofit medical school

The new school is part of a larger plan to address a broken healthcare system.

www.fayettevilleflyer.com

Pshh...

I'm holding out for Chick-Fil-A University - School of Osteopathic Medicine!

 

[Lawpy]

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over the electrons.

And for the rest of you, keep the thread on topic or I'll have to ask the mods to lock the thread.

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[TXKnight]

Although their wording "body, mind and spirit" sounds DO-esque 100% , it will be an allopathic school. I'm concerned about the large number of med schools being opened, we run the risk of becoming like law-schools, where there's oversupply of attorneys and compensation suffers as a result. One thing the Walton's do have in excess is money, though. They could build as bad-ass a school as they want, heck they could build a state of the art med center along with it if they wanted.

 

[Goro]

Pshh...

I'm holding out for Chick-Fil-A University - School of Osteopathic Medicine!

McTouro, McLECOM or McVCOM would be more accurate.

 

[Goro]

One thing the Walton's do have in excess is money, though. They could build as bad-ass a school as they want, heck they could build a state of the art med center along with it if they wanted.

If they think this thing through, then funding residency slots/sites would be beneficial.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

If they think this thing through, then funding residency slots/sites would be beneficial.

Yeah, I was about to say that even when there was only one medical school in AR (UAMS), there still weren't enough residency spots for all AR graduates. And that's why the entire state will continue to be a giant underserve area even with 5 medical schools. They will keep pumping doctors and ship them out of state. Although, ARCOM has started opening new residency programs in the state, it is still not nearly enough to accommodate all the graduates.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

The only MD school without it's own hospital. Only one that requires private loans even after graduating its first class. Only one that's for-profit. Only one whose match list look similar to a DO school. Still trust the LCME?

UCF didnt have it's own hospital for years.

 

[PapaGuava]

This thread has been battered enough and is closed from further replies.